Posted by John on January 08, 1999 at 15:28:13:
In Reply to: I understand posted by RadicalMan on January 08, 1999 at 15:12:35:
: : : Exactly what is it that I have to give up in life that I would otherwise have the privelege of enjoying if I weren't a Christian?
: : My answer remains basically the same. You'd have to give up a different methodology--one that relies on evidence, facts, and reality. This may not be the 'tangible' kind of item you are looking for, but it really makes a huge difference between living a clear-headed life and a delusional one.
: (Xavier) rpcman, I think I understand what you are saying and I think your response is a much better one than mine. One would have to discontinue the belief in things that do not conform with the evidence and observations made in the physical world. Believers have faith that things are according to the Bible, simply because it states such in the Bible. I believe John, however, has made it possible to convince himself that his Biblical beliefs ARE based on logic, reason, and physical observations and evidence. His position reminds of those of the "Creation Scientists". It was not enough to base their beliefs in the biblical account of creation on religious faith alone; they felt it necessary to couch their beliefs in scientific jargon, in a futile attempt to convince others that biblical creation was supported by science. No amount of evidence will convince these creation "scientists" that they have either misused or misinterpreted scientific evidence. They want so hard to believe that they will simply discard that which contradicts their beliefs. I have no problem if religious folks have a strong faith that their religion is truth; I just find it odd when there are those that attempt to believe that simple logic and reason will bring about the same conclusions. I guess that may be why John is having such a difficult time with your response...He feels that his faith IS based on logic, evidence, facts, and reality, rather than simply religious faith. Therefore he can not see how he is giving up these concepts. I, personally, feel that if one has a fervent faith in the "truth" of one's religious doctrine, the faith alone should sustain them. I don't understand why they feel the need to use a counterproductive methodology to support their faith.
: Well, was I obtuse enough or am I just full of crap? I'm a big boy...I can take it.
(John) I wouldn't say you're full of crap but that paragraph you just wrote was WAY more than it needed to be and still be wrong. All I asked was what do I have to give up in order to be a Christian. I was given an answer of "Faith." You as well as any one else on this board should know that Christians do not give up faith but actually increase in it (much to the dismay of you and your cohorts). Unfortunately you seem to be so blinded by aggression towards believers that no matter how simple a question may be or how short of an answer is really required, once you start typing, you forget all about what the original question was and go on a creationist bashing frenzy. Faith is an incorrect answer to my question because the existence of faith is not determined by what is being believed in. Faith in the truth of creation or faith in the accuracy of science, is still faith.