Posted by Pat on May 18, 1999 at 23:36:51:
In Reply to: origins posted by Templar on May 18, 1999 at 14:09:03:
Templar
: I choose to refuse to believe that the universe was designed by a big Sky God but I also choose to believe (along with the scientist who discovered DNA) that infinitely complex systems absolutely cannot be the result of randomness.
: Pat:
: Good. Because the theory of evolution also denies that it's due to randomness. If you actually learned what the theory is about, you might like it.
Templar:
Yeah, I've never heard of evolution... duh.... You have to accept that unthinking elements are capable of designing incredibly complex systems.
Pat:
And you think that God goes and designs the weather system daily? These are incredibly complex, with a fractal structure that defies long-term analysis. Yet they have no thinking elements. How about that?
Templar:
The single-cell, for example, is an incredibly complex, designed machine incapable of being generated whole cloth from an 'organic soup'.
Pat:
As you learned earlier, the theory of evolution makes no such claims. If you'd stick to what the theory actually says, instead of other things, you might make some progress.
Templar:
Let's just pick one organ out of thin air - the Kidney. For some reason fish suddenly developed 'a Kidney' - here is a highly complex, designed organ specifically built for it's ONE task.
Pat: And it didn't just appear full-blown. The most primitive kidney is the pronephros found in lampreys and hagfish (primitive jawless fishes) and the larval stage of lower vertebrates. It is very different from the human kidney. For one thing, the most primitive form of the pronephros is metameric, i.e. there is one per body segment. The glomeruli are suspended in the body cavity instead of the kidney capsule. The nephrostomes open into the body cavity, and the tubules drain into two longitudinal ducts which drain into the cloaca. In more advanced vertebrates, some of this equipment is modified to other uses... "n the male, some of the mesonephric tubules and the mesonephric duct become incorporated into the genital tract as the efferent ductules, epididymis and ductus deferens. (See development of the Male Reproductive System.) In the female, the mesonephric tubules and ducts largely disappear. Cyst-like structures (near the ovaries) called epoophoron and paroophoron represent the remnants the the mesonephric tubules." As you can see, this organ has quite an evolutionary history, even with the limited number of primitive vertebrates still living for us to examine.
Actually, the kidney isn't for just one task. It serves to balance electrolytes, remove wastes from the blood, and possibly other functions.
Templar:
Here in the 1990s we STILL are incapable of creating this organ
Pat:
That's what a dialysis machine is.
Templar:
and yet we are told by the disciples of the One True Faith that we must BELIEVE that this organ popped out of nowhere into existing organic machines and successfully hooked up into a system that has never before owned this intricate mechanism.
Pat:
Nope. As you've just seen, it's been evolving and elaborating for some time now. Very little that's new actually comes from evolution. It's all the reworking of existing structures, as per the genital tract and epididymi.
Templar:
Believing that random organs suddenly pop into our bodies and are discarded or used as needed is, again, asinine!
Pat:
Indeed. But this is the Cartoon Version of evolution. The real theory says no such thing.
Templar:
If this were true then we could simply look at the population of the planet earth finding random organs popping into our bodies or maybe third eyes or extra limbs but we don't because THEY ARE UNNECESSARY! Obviously the highly complex programming language (DNA) seems to KNOW what we need and don't need - it EVEN 'knows' to produce more male children during a war. This mind-boggling DESIGN at our most basic level, more than anything else, should prove that something other than random elements are at work.
Pat:
Good. Then you agree with at least one premise of evolutionary theory.
: Templar:
: I didn't want this to turn into a discussion on evolution but I am absolutely outraged by the obtuse arrogance of it's current disciples.
: Pat:
: Frankly, Templar, you have demonstrated to all that you don't have a clue about what the theory is really about. Perhaps you ought to fall back, learn a little about what it says, (hint make sure you learn from someone who knows more than you do) and then come on back and try again.
Templar:
Ewwwwwwwwwwww patronizing and arrogant. Absolutely predictable from the disciples of 'The One True Faith'.
Pat:
You come in here all puffed up with your "knowledge", and when it's unwrapped, it all turns out to be the wrong stuff. Fact is, you don't know what the theory of evolution is about. No way to sugar coat that for you. Go learn what it is, and you'll be much more effective.
: Templar:
: Claiming that evolution is akin to gravity is asinine and betrays your lack of knowledge on the subject.
: Pat:
: As noted above, we've already established who lacks a grounding in the theory. I assume you know that creationists do admit that new species evolve.
Templar:
Patronizing and arrogant again. Can't you actually defend your faith? I don't care what certain creationists believe or what they or you define as 'evolve'.
Pat:
Until you argue against what the theory says, instead of what you wish it said, you're going to keep crashing into walls. Up to you.
: Templar:
: Many scientists (one of whom is a friend of mine and works for Nasa) neither believe in the spontaneous generation of complex systems or a religious explanation yet you would rule them out immediately - I'm certain.
: Pat:
: I rule out spontaneous generation. The theory is not about spontaneous generation, nor does it require such a thing. However, I do accept a religious explanation for the ultimate origins of the universe. But that is not science, and not open to evidence. It seems you have a hard time separating the two ways of knowing. That always leads to error.
Templar:
Science is Greek for 'Knowledge'. Religion must be as much science as any other endeavor.
Pat:
No. Science is not religion, and religion is not science. One requires evidence, and one requires faith.
Templar:
We can't simply 'have faith' - we must believe because of some real evidence.
Pat:
Read what Jesus said about "doubting Thomas". He disagrees with you. So do I.
Templar:
So, if you believe in a possible religious origin then why would you not believe in a religious 'guidance' of organisms?
Pat:
God does guide everything in the universe. If He was to withdraw from us, we would not even exist.
Templar:
Why is saying 'I don't know' so hard?
Pat:
What you should be saying is "I don't know, but I'll find out." That would be appropriate at this point.
: Templar:
: Anyway, I'm not interested in hearing from a pack of selfsatisfied, brainwashed disciples of the True Faith (evolution) - I want to hear some other options.
: Pat:
: There are none, I'm afraid. Perhaps it's time for you to drop your misconceptions about evolution, and learn what it really is. Then you might be able to discuss it intelligently.
Templar:
Of course 2000 years from now we'll still accept the current scientific model even though that model has been challenged by fellow scientists and continues to change.
Pat:
Of course the theory has changed. It changes whenever the facts demand. That is the difference between science and creationism.
Templar:
Maybe I didn't act in a 'civil' manner but when confronted with a demeaning, patronizing attitude I tend to get a little miffed.
Pat:
I did none of those things to you. I merely pointed out some facts. You got angry, called names, and attributed to me something I did not say or believe. It wasn't a very good reflection on you.
Templar:
Again, Biology was my major in college and I have NO misconceptions about evolution
Pat: You should have known about the phylogeny of the kidney as well, but you didn't know that, either.
Sorry. You do. It has nothing to do with the origin of life, and it does not say that organs evolve out of noting in a random manner. You should know that,if you are a biologist.
Templar:
- if anything, I'm sure I could help you out by giving you some inklings on new theories that are coming out of our univerisities.
Pat:
Well, I'm always ready to learn something new. Tell me something I don't know...