So when do members hear the official head in hat with seer stones lesson?

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  • user warning: Table './exmo_08072012/cache_filter' is marked as crashed and should be repaired query: UPDATE cache_filter SET data = '<p>dk Aug 2013</p>\n<p>A while back, someone posted an official primary lesson that talked about JS translating the BOM from gold plates. So, when do members hear the lesson that says JS translated the BOM by putting his head in a hat with seer stones?</p>\n<p>[Note: The hat and seer stone was mentioned in a 1993 Ensign, but never incorporated into official lesson manuals.]</p>\n<p>I was only an active member for about 2 years, so I may have missed that lesson.</p>\n<p>Why talk about gold plates at all? Or are the gold plates like telling little kids about Santa Claus? When are members old enough to be officially told the gold plates don\'t exist and they\'re just another mormon myth?</p>\n<p>QWE<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nIt\'s not taught in the primary curriculum, but it is mentioned on the church website: <a href=\"http://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god\" title=\"http://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god\">http://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god</a></p>\n<p>About a third of the way in it says: \"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine.\"</p>\n<p>I don\'t want to sound like I\'m defending the church. If you want to tell a mormon that Joseph Smith translated in that way, it could be a good article to get them to read. They can in no way argue it\'s \"anti\", since it\'s from the church itself, on their website. They will have to accept that it\'s true.</p>\n<hr />\ndolphinfan<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nMember for 40 years - never heard of it until I started searching the internet. Not once, not in a class, not from a church leader, not anywhere. All the wards here in the South have the picture of him translating from the plates (hiding, of course, behind the curtain).\n<hr />\n<p>disobedient<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nFirst time I have heard it from an official LDS source. Lol. That episode of south park was right on!</p>\n<hr />\nMia<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nWhen they log onto RFM.\n<hr />\n<p>gentlestrength<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI think we should challenge the idea that it is taught to Mormons. It was never taught to me. Out in 1988. Made it through BYU, institute, seminary, and a mission.</p>\n<p>I think the face in hat shift the Book of Mormon away from translation to revelation. This is unacceptable in context.</p>\n<p>Since 1830, The Book of Mormon was translated from gold plates. That\'s been the teaching and the origin, it is not revelation it is the translated word of God, that people died for to make sure the plates made it to the Hill Cumorah in New York for Joseph Smith to translate.</p>\n<p>That is the origin of Mormonism, The Book of Mormon--that and the First Vision is what people mean when they say they know the Church is True.</p>\n<p>The keystones. The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.</p>\n<p>Translation, not revelation. No negotiation, that\'s their story, they have to stick to it, thanks for playing.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>jiminycricket<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nIf the church wanted to educate the members, it would take getting an artist to render the portrait, approve it and publish it (probably won\'t happen).</p>\n<p>In 50+ years at church, solid TBM, I never heard of it till last December (and I came across it by accident on the internet). That started me down the road with MormonThink. The rest is history.</p>\n<p>------</p>\n<p>It\'s been a year since I was in my home ward building for anything. I know if I go back to a Sunday Sacrament service there will be tons of folks who just happen to say, \"It\'s nice to see you.\" Blah, blah, and blah!</p>\n<p>How do I wake them up to start questioning? How do I get them out of the same trance I was once in? How do I make them ask the first question?</p>\n<p>How do I get them to learn the stone and hat history?</p>\n<p>So I fixed breakfast for a dear family member this morning. During our conversation I jolted to my feet, \"Maybe I should grab a rock from our backyard river rock collection, stick it in a top hat, and carry it with me into the chapel. When someone asks me what it’s for I\'ll tell them - I just bury my head in the hat, stare at the stone, and get revelation.\"</p>\n<p>\"If I hear something during a talk and want to know if what they are saying is true, I simply bend over and look into my hat for the confirmation of the Holy Ghost.\"</p>\n<p>When they think I\'m nuts, I\'ll tell them, “Don’t you know your church history? That\'s the way Joseph Smith translated 100% of the Book of Mormon. He did it with his hat AND a stone he found digging a neighbor\'s well.\"</p>\n<p>If they question me, I\'ll tell them to check out the Sept Ensign 1977.</p>\n<p>Then I’ll pull out ten $100 bills and say, “Prove me wrong and I’ll give these to you.” Maybe the word would spread and all the deacons, teachers, and priests would want to win a fast $1,000 bucks? So, to the internet they go.</p>\n<p>Maybe that will get a few heads rolling. And if the Bishop tells me to stop - I\'ll tell him to wake up and start telling the truth.</p>\n<hr />\nsparkyguru<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI will say this, you got some stones if you pull that off :)\n<hr />\n<p>QWE<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nYeah. They can argue with you, but once they see that the 1977 Ensign mentions it too, they\'ll have to believe you. Then they might think \"Maybe he\'s right about other things too\".</p>\n<hr />\n<p>Greyfort<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI was a member for 30 years and attended for a few years before I was baptized. I never heard of it until I began hanging out on ex-Mo forums.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>NeverBeenaMormon<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\n\'See, the church does teach it!!\' - yep, so much that you have to trawl back to magazines in the 1970s to hear it mentioned whilst the current missionary lessons show pictures of Joe and Cowdery with the plates on a table (<a href=\"http://www.lds.org/languages/additionalmanuals/preachgospel/PreachMyGospel___00_00_Complete__36617_eng_000.pdf\" title=\"http://www.lds.org/languages/additionalmanuals/preachgospel/PreachMyGospel___00_00_Complete__36617_eng_000.pdf\">http://www.lds.org/languages/additionalmanuals/preachgospel/PreachMyGosp...</a>, page 38)</p>\n<hr />\niris<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI\'ve never heard about it, never been taught it. Learned about it here. Same goes fot JS marrying women who had living husbands.\n<hr />\n<p>oldklunker<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nJS\'s hat trick (hockey term. One player scoring 3 goals in one game)...the BOM, D&amp;C and the POGP. Now, instead of pulling out your triple combinations, you can pull out your hat trick.</p>\n<p>Start wearing ball caps to church that say \" I was stoned by Joseph Smith Jr.\"</p>\n<p>New TSCC conversion slogan: \"Join mormonism and get stoned\"</p>\n<p>\"I am a mormon and I got stoned by the hat trick\"</p>\n<p>Disclaimer: getting stoned with the mormons may cause you to lose 10% of your income. You may become depressed and have anxiety attacks. You may start playing mental gymnastics while stoned and start having thoughts of suicide. If you have any of these side affects please consult the Internet and log on to RFM for recovery.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>truthseeker<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nThis quote from the prophet\'s wife (notice that it doesn\'t specify WHICH wife) is especially interesting to me: “I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired. For when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals or after interruptions, he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this, and for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible.” So, she realizes that doing this would be impossible for an uneducated man, and concludes that he must have been inspired? Doesn\'t it occur to her that he was just a conman making every word of it up? So ridiculous.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>releve<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI believe it was a group effort, probably Smith, Cowdery and Rigdon with Emma serving tea and cakes and occasionally acting as scribe. She was a woman in love with the wrong man and would have done almost anything to help him succeed in the world so that her father would be proved wrong about him. Of course her father was right all a long. Poor deluded woman.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>anon for now<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI was a member for 55 years, and never heard the rock in the hat story at church. Not once, not ever. Not eve a hint. It was said over and over and over that the BoM was translated from the gold plates. Word for word.</p>\n<p>I also heard over and over that it was the most perfect book ever. No mistakes. Zero, not a one.</p>\n<hr />\nreleve<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI have never heard of the Hat and the Stone being taught to members. I certainly never heard it at church. I think if you were going to teach that story at church you would need to have a physical copy of the Ensign it appeared in with you. Not just a copy from the internet, but an actual Ensign. Otherwise, someone would be leaving the room and heading for the bishops office to report that you were teaching false doctrine.\n<p>In defense of Sunday School teachers, as a teacher you are cautioned that you can only use approved materials for your lesson. When I taught the bishop instructed me that if I could buy it at distribution, I could teach from it. That meant that even sources purchased at Deseret Book were off limits.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>spicyspirit<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI grew up in it in the 80s and 90s, and was taught the urim and thummim.</p>\n<hr />\nvh65<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nSomehow I got interested in following a link yesterday to an interview with Dr. Law, the member of the first presidency who was appalled when he learned about polygamy from Hyrum Smith, was excommunicated for openly trying to publicize and stop it (not invited to his court of love), and founded the Expositor to reveal the truth to other good people who had been hoodwinked - end result JS and Hyrum died.\n<p>His comments on Emma were particularly interesting. He felt sorry for her over the womanizing but said she was oily and dishonest, and helped cheat people to get rich. I guess Hyrum and some others had plans to buy a lot of stuff on credit and never pay. They believed they could claim to be penniless if the house and property was all in the wife\'s name (not joint). Smith had most of his property in her name, and she refused to pay what he saw as a debt of honor - giving the Lawrence sisters\' inheritance to their next guardian after JS died. Dr Law told the guardian to take and sell whatever was left of his property in Nauvoo and use it for the sisters. Maybe Emma was just in it for the money, and we shouldn\'t feel too sorry for her...</p>\n<p>vh65<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI attended for about25 years - BIC, BYU... Never heard it. But it did convince me TSCC was a scam from the start, especially when I found out what else JS used the stone for and where he got it.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>ontheDownLow<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nDitto that one. 40 years never heard of a stone in a hat. However, I did hear supposed lies that JS was a money digger.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>pewsitter<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nI believe the 1977 article was actually in the children\'s magazine The Friend. The Ensign version was like 1993.</p>\n<p>Either way, TSCC did almost told the truth twice in 35 years. Not bad for a lying, thieving religion but on lies.</p>\n<hr />\n<p>evergreen<br />\nRe: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?<br />\nGood point about \"translation\" vs. \"revelation\".</p>\n<p>\"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org\"</p>\n', created = 1495550376, expire = 1495636776, headers = '', serialized = 0 WHERE cid = '2:7bd336dd2a251270f496a58cb730e288' in /home/exmormon/public_html/d6/drupal/includes/cache.inc on line 112.

dk Aug 2013

A while back, someone posted an official primary lesson that talked about JS translating the BOM from gold plates. So, when do members hear the lesson that says JS translated the BOM by putting his head in a hat with seer stones?

[Note: The hat and seer stone was mentioned in a 1993 Ensign, but never incorporated into official lesson manuals.]

I was only an active member for about 2 years, so I may have missed that lesson.

Why talk about gold plates at all? Or are the gold plates like telling little kids about Santa Claus? When are members old enough to be officially told the gold plates don't exist and they're just another mormon myth?

QWE
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
It's not taught in the primary curriculum, but it is mentioned on the church website: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god

About a third of the way in it says: "Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine."

I don't want to sound like I'm defending the church. If you want to tell a mormon that Joseph Smith translated in that way, it could be a good article to get them to read. They can in no way argue it's "anti", since it's from the church itself, on their website. They will have to accept that it's true.


dolphinfan
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
Member for 40 years - never heard of it until I started searching the internet. Not once, not in a class, not from a church leader, not anywhere. All the wards here in the South have the picture of him translating from the plates (hiding, of course, behind the curtain).

disobedient
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
First time I have heard it from an official LDS source. Lol. That episode of south park was right on!


Mia
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
When they log onto RFM.

gentlestrength
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I think we should challenge the idea that it is taught to Mormons. It was never taught to me. Out in 1988. Made it through BYU, institute, seminary, and a mission.

I think the face in hat shift the Book of Mormon away from translation to revelation. This is unacceptable in context.

Since 1830, The Book of Mormon was translated from gold plates. That's been the teaching and the origin, it is not revelation it is the translated word of God, that people died for to make sure the plates made it to the Hill Cumorah in New York for Joseph Smith to translate.

That is the origin of Mormonism, The Book of Mormon--that and the First Vision is what people mean when they say they know the Church is True.

The keystones. The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith.

Translation, not revelation. No negotiation, that's their story, they have to stick to it, thanks for playing.


jiminycricket
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
If the church wanted to educate the members, it would take getting an artist to render the portrait, approve it and publish it (probably won't happen).

In 50+ years at church, solid TBM, I never heard of it till last December (and I came across it by accident on the internet). That started me down the road with MormonThink. The rest is history.

------

It's been a year since I was in my home ward building for anything. I know if I go back to a Sunday Sacrament service there will be tons of folks who just happen to say, "It's nice to see you." Blah, blah, and blah!

How do I wake them up to start questioning? How do I get them out of the same trance I was once in? How do I make them ask the first question?

How do I get them to learn the stone and hat history?

So I fixed breakfast for a dear family member this morning. During our conversation I jolted to my feet, "Maybe I should grab a rock from our backyard river rock collection, stick it in a top hat, and carry it with me into the chapel. When someone asks me what it’s for I'll tell them - I just bury my head in the hat, stare at the stone, and get revelation."

"If I hear something during a talk and want to know if what they are saying is true, I simply bend over and look into my hat for the confirmation of the Holy Ghost."

When they think I'm nuts, I'll tell them, “Don’t you know your church history? That's the way Joseph Smith translated 100% of the Book of Mormon. He did it with his hat AND a stone he found digging a neighbor's well."

If they question me, I'll tell them to check out the Sept Ensign 1977.

Then I’ll pull out ten $100 bills and say, “Prove me wrong and I’ll give these to you.” Maybe the word would spread and all the deacons, teachers, and priests would want to win a fast $1,000 bucks? So, to the internet they go.

Maybe that will get a few heads rolling. And if the Bishop tells me to stop - I'll tell him to wake up and start telling the truth.


sparkyguru
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I will say this, you got some stones if you pull that off :)

QWE
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
Yeah. They can argue with you, but once they see that the 1977 Ensign mentions it too, they'll have to believe you. Then they might think "Maybe he's right about other things too".


Greyfort
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I was a member for 30 years and attended for a few years before I was baptized. I never heard of it until I began hanging out on ex-Mo forums.


NeverBeenaMormon
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
'See, the church does teach it!!' - yep, so much that you have to trawl back to magazines in the 1970s to hear it mentioned whilst the current missionary lessons show pictures of Joe and Cowdery with the plates on a table (http://www.lds.org/languages/additionalmanuals/preachgospel/PreachMyGosp..., page 38)


iris
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I've never heard about it, never been taught it. Learned about it here. Same goes fot JS marrying women who had living husbands.

oldklunker
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
JS's hat trick (hockey term. One player scoring 3 goals in one game)...the BOM, D&C and the POGP. Now, instead of pulling out your triple combinations, you can pull out your hat trick.

Start wearing ball caps to church that say " I was stoned by Joseph Smith Jr."

New TSCC conversion slogan: "Join mormonism and get stoned"

"I am a mormon and I got stoned by the hat trick"

Disclaimer: getting stoned with the mormons may cause you to lose 10% of your income. You may become depressed and have anxiety attacks. You may start playing mental gymnastics while stoned and start having thoughts of suicide. If you have any of these side affects please consult the Internet and log on to RFM for recovery.


truthseeker
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
This quote from the prophet's wife (notice that it doesn't specify WHICH wife) is especially interesting to me: “I am satisfied that no man could have dictated the writing of the manuscripts unless he was inspired. For when acting as his scribe, your father would dictate to me hour after hour; and when returning after meals or after interruptions, he would at once begin where he had left off, without either seeing the manuscript or having any portion of it read to him. This was a usual thing for him to do. It would have been improbable that a learned man could do this, and for one so ignorant and unlearned as he was, it was simply impossible.” So, she realizes that doing this would be impossible for an uneducated man, and concludes that he must have been inspired? Doesn't it occur to her that he was just a conman making every word of it up? So ridiculous.


releve
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I believe it was a group effort, probably Smith, Cowdery and Rigdon with Emma serving tea and cakes and occasionally acting as scribe. She was a woman in love with the wrong man and would have done almost anything to help him succeed in the world so that her father would be proved wrong about him. Of course her father was right all a long. Poor deluded woman.


anon for now
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I was a member for 55 years, and never heard the rock in the hat story at church. Not once, not ever. Not eve a hint. It was said over and over and over that the BoM was translated from the gold plates. Word for word.

I also heard over and over that it was the most perfect book ever. No mistakes. Zero, not a one.


releve
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I have never heard of the Hat and the Stone being taught to members. I certainly never heard it at church. I think if you were going to teach that story at church you would need to have a physical copy of the Ensign it appeared in with you. Not just a copy from the internet, but an actual Ensign. Otherwise, someone would be leaving the room and heading for the bishops office to report that you were teaching false doctrine.

In defense of Sunday School teachers, as a teacher you are cautioned that you can only use approved materials for your lesson. When I taught the bishop instructed me that if I could buy it at distribution, I could teach from it. That meant that even sources purchased at Deseret Book were off limits.


spicyspirit
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I grew up in it in the 80s and 90s, and was taught the urim and thummim.


vh65
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
Somehow I got interested in following a link yesterday to an interview with Dr. Law, the member of the first presidency who was appalled when he learned about polygamy from Hyrum Smith, was excommunicated for openly trying to publicize and stop it (not invited to his court of love), and founded the Expositor to reveal the truth to other good people who had been hoodwinked - end result JS and Hyrum died.

His comments on Emma were particularly interesting. He felt sorry for her over the womanizing but said she was oily and dishonest, and helped cheat people to get rich. I guess Hyrum and some others had plans to buy a lot of stuff on credit and never pay. They believed they could claim to be penniless if the house and property was all in the wife's name (not joint). Smith had most of his property in her name, and she refused to pay what he saw as a debt of honor - giving the Lawrence sisters' inheritance to their next guardian after JS died. Dr Law told the guardian to take and sell whatever was left of his property in Nauvoo and use it for the sisters. Maybe Emma was just in it for the money, and we shouldn't feel too sorry for her...

vh65
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I attended for about25 years - BIC, BYU... Never heard it. But it did convince me TSCC was a scam from the start, especially when I found out what else JS used the stone for and where he got it.


ontheDownLow
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
Ditto that one. 40 years never heard of a stone in a hat. However, I did hear supposed lies that JS was a money digger.


pewsitter
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
I believe the 1977 article was actually in the children's magazine The Friend. The Ensign version was like 1993.

Either way, TSCC did almost told the truth twice in 35 years. Not bad for a lying, thieving religion but on lies.


evergreen
Re: So when do members hear the official head in hat/seer stones lesson?
Good point about "translation" vs. "revelation".

"Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org"