Subject

Subject:	On Verge of Baptism--SCARED!
Date:	Jun 05 14:19
Author:	Giselle

Hi,

I hope someone can help me. My daughter and I have just finished the discussions, and are due to be baptized soon. My husband and son are not. My son (20), became extremely distressed at this news because he said his research shows that as taught by the LDS Church, we will be in different levels of heaven, eternally separated. He asked why I would join a church that would hurt us that way. I was horrified and devistated at the thought.

I researched this in my Gospel Principles book and it looks like he could be right. I found it under Assignment to Glories. The missionaries did not make this clear. We are a very close family, and I would not want to ever do anything to hurt my husband and son. I thought that the LDS Church supported family, not separate it.

Could someone please tell me if this is true, and any other repurcussions of a mother and daughter joining without the husband and son. Please dont hold anything back. I am extremely worried now and wonder if this is just the tip of an iceberg. I feel very sad, as I thought I was doing something positive.

Any help, deeply appreciated, Giselle

Subject:	Re: BE AFRAID, VERY AFRAID
Date:	Jun 05 14:24
Author:	Switz

It is VERY true if you believe what they tell you. But then you wouldn't be able to ever get to the Celestial Kingdom anyway because you would be married to a nonmember. So you wouldn't qualify.

Take it from a convert, you are about to make the biggest mistake of your life if you are baptised. My husband wouldn't submit to the pressure and I was an outcast in church because I was in a "part member" family.

The mormons promote everything BUT a "family together forever" campaign. They will give you every calling they can heap on your shoulders and if you diligently do the work to fulfill them you will never see your family.

Subject:	Don't Do It
Date:	Jun 05 14:31
Author:	beaglie
Mail Address:

My husband and I are both evangelical Christians. My husband was a 9th generation Mormon from Utah. He served a 2 year mission in Rome, Italy for the Mormon Church. It is all a crock. Don't let them manipulate you. The Mormon church does indeed divide families.

May I suggest you peruse this board completely to view the wreckage left behind in the lives of those run over by this cult. Check out http:\www.utlm.org for some info.

Feel free to e-mail me rowsby@optonline.net

beaglie

Subject:	Don't join yet! Here's why:
Date:	Jun 05 14:28
Author:	hello kitty
Mail Address:

While there are some aspects of the Mormon church that are indeed positive -- most the missionaries and the members are very nice, for example -- the church has many weird doctrines that the missionaries have not told you about, and the church is not true. Yes, the church believes that if you are a faithful member and your husband never joins, you will be separated for eternity -- you'll be in the "celestial kingdom", he'll be in a kingdom below you. When you go to the temple to get your "endowment" they teach you secret handshakes that they claim that you need to get into the highest level of heaven. If your husband doesn't join the church, he'll never go to the temple and learn the handshakes. Ask the missionaries about this. The weirdness of the temple is what made me really start to realize, after a lifetime in the church, that it probably wasn't true. Take a couple of months to really research the church's doctrines and practices before you join, because it is very hard to leave the church once you've been baptized.

Subject:	RESEARCH time- suggest you devote about 4 to 8 hours to get WELL INFORMED
Date:	Jun 05 14:29
Author:	SusieQ#1

Here are some sites to explore. They are the best ones on the Internet. Ignore tone, bias, agenda and go for the primary documented Mormon sources.

What Mormon missionaries won't tell you about the Mormon or LDS church
http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
Much more info on www.exmormon.org - see the HOME PAGE

lds-mormon.com - tons of information on mormonism and the lds church
http://lds-mormon.com/
Very comprehensive web site. Clear, consise, accurate.

Dr. Shades' Mormonism Page
http://www.connect-a.net/users/drshades/mormon.htm
One of my favorites for good info.

Temple Ceremonies
http://www.helpingmormons.org/temples.htm
New Mormon temple recommend questions
http://www.lds-mormon.com/new_temple_questions.shtml
Get full disclosure of what goes on in the temple. This is as accurate as you will get on the Internet.

From Mormonism to Eccentric Eclectic or from Saint to Ain't http://hometown.aol.com/sllestodd/myhomepage/profile.html

Email me if you would like to discuss this more.

Subject:	Understand the Role of Women in Mormonism (from my prior posts)
Date:	Jun 05 14:33
Author:	SusieQ#1

I have heard Mormon women admit that they did not like or understand Date: Apr 11 02:53 Author:SusieQ#1 Mail Address:sllestodd@aol.com
their position in the Mormon Church but it was how "heavenly father wanted it" and they went along with it thinking it was the only right thing to do. So, they defer to the priesthood, thinking they are laying up treasures in heaven! The woman's place is foremost and always to follow and support the priesthood in all things.

Their role is clearly defined, heavenly father meant for them to be the mothers, and for the men to officiate in the priesthood. There is a lot of lip service to the notion that they are equal, but every woman knows that only applies in certain areas. They might share equal chores in the home, or have equal input on decisions in the home, but when it comes to the church hierarchy and how the priesthood functions, they might be listened to, but their recommendations can be and are overruled on the whim of the leaders as they are the representatives of the Lord. What the priesthood leaders say goes as they claim inspiration given to them as the Lord's mouthpiece.

I find it is impossible for my older Mormon husband to understand how differently Mormonism treats women than men.
I have tried to get him to imagine himself in my shoes but he never really "gets it."

Women have no authority in the church and no place in the hierarchy and only serve under the men. If the men in charge do not like something, the women are told to do things differently. If they do not agree, they are pridefull, think they "own" a calling, and not obedient to the priesthood. All of which is unacceptable! Her agency is held in a very small box of do's and don't all determined by how the men interpret the scriptures, how they supervise the organizations, and how they make "callings" and give "council." There is a "vote" but it means nothing as dissent is not accepted either. The men's "inspiration" overrules anything a woman says or claims as an answer to her prayers. There is also no need for the priesthood brethren to tell the truth as they have the privilege of "lying for the Lord."

All of Mormonism is governed by men with very little input from the women, who are predominately used to follow orders - with a dust pan and broom to clean up after the brethren - in more ways than one!

Even the temple rituals do not make her equal to her husband. She is to be a priestess to her husband who will rule over her in righteousness!

I always knew this did not make sense and was contrary to the nature of men and women! I tried for over 30 years to make these foolish ideas work! But they always failed. Even though I was a very feisty woman, pushing the limits and demanding respect, that also failed. The typical TBM priesthood leader has no respect for a female who uses her own mind, challenges them, or corrects them. Women are accepted in the Mormon Church and loved and respected and admired only if they comply with the role they are given.

Part 2 - Role of Women in Mormonism-Motherhood,Sexuality,Temple Memories (long) Date: Apr 11 17:18 Author:SusieQ#1 Mail Address:sllestodd@aol.com
Part 2 The Role of Women in Mormonism: Motherhood and sexuality defined, and temple washing and anointing memories.

Women accept their role in Mormonism with a promise that borrows into her heart and is the essence of motherhood - the absolutely belief that they will never loose their children and their family if they comply with the doctrines taught them.

She willingly submits to these beliefs even though, to an outsider, they seem to infringe on her independence, her honor and her good sense. Some outsiders, even call it abusive.

Women who are well entrenched and strong believers in Mormonism, often with several generations of Mormonism in their DNA, see these accusations as silly and false. She absolutely knows she is not abused, not programmed and can "think for herself." What she may not realize is that she is restricted by the doctrines and what she considers "thinking for herself" means she thinks long and hard and prays long and hard to obtain a "witness of the spirit" so she is "worthy" to obtain eternal life. A mother is often willing to go to any length to save, protect, and keep her family.

Women in Mormonism are also defined by their sexuality.
The underlying message about sexuality is that you will give your life to keep from being raped. The worthy, honorable thing to do, if sexual assaulted, is to fight to the death to preserve your vagina from dishonorable intrusion.
An honorable Mormon father teaches his daughters that he would rather see her dead than violated. It is worth noting, however, that this not a concept solely held by Mormonism.

Women in Mormonism are also defined by their attire. Their whole wardrobe and their sense of their bodies is determined by the temple garment that is to be worn next to the skin as a protection and placed on her body in a ritual in the temple. It is also seen as a protection against her sexuality being defiled or assaulted in any way. She is told she is to remain chaste and worthy in thought and deed with the temple garment a constant, even Mosaic reminder that she is a daughter of Heavenly Father and this is what
is expected of her. Again her sexuality is given a place before her life.

The temple garment, with it's Masonic markings is seen as holy and sacred and is never to be put on the floor or abused in any manner. In fact, discarding of used, and worn garments requires a further ritual as the markings are to be cut out and burned. Then, and only then, can the remaining material (now devoid of their sacred element) be used as rags to clean the floor, or wash the car.

Once dressed in the 'holy garment of the priesthood" - an interesting title, as she has no rank in the priesthood or any right to officiate, only as a servant - she then must make her attire comply with it's restrictions. That means, every part of her body that is covered by the garment must be covered - modestly. Because the garment comes do mid thigh or knee, and has a cap sleeve, and is designed to fall several inches above her natural bra line, she is now confined to buying (or in many cases - making) clothing that covers her underwear. She has now become subservient to "Heavenly Father" - her God, who controls her (and men also) by her underwear. There is the underlying message that women (and men) behave according to the clothing they are wearing, so the subtle indoctrinated script says that the woman in Mormonism is wearing a holy-sacred reminder to dress modestly, and act accordingly and worthy of the blessings promised her.

These are some of my memories of the Washing and Anointing Ceremony in the Temple. (All of these rituals are easily accessed on line also)

You enter a small stall, and sit on a cold marble type slab. The female temple worker doing the washing and anointing stands behind and to the side of you and starts with the top of the head, the forehead, the eyes, nose, mouth, breast, bowels, legs..etc. She has a little spigot she gets water from that drips slowly. The oil is done in the same fashion. There are promises given, with each part of the body that is washed-dabbed with water and anointed-dabbed with oil. These have to do with promising the female that she will be a priestess to her husband etc. Nothing untoward, or of a sexual nature is done, but it is just very, very ethically and culturally out of order. How anyone can equate that to something spiritual still amazes me.

I can still see the rows of tiny lockers where we completely undressed and donned the sheet tunic, carrying our long garments into the little cubical where the old lady awaited me. This is a true tunic - open at the sides and no seams. To walk in and out of the washing and anointing room, most people hold the sheets together. I can still see, hear and feel and smell those old women. The were like a grandma dressed in a white uniform, false teeth clacking, chewing a breath mint I could feel their breath and smell the aroma of the mints as she whispered in my ear reaching under the sheet with those warm, sweaty, damp hands sliding over here and over there, anointing me first with dabs of water from head to toe, then going the same thing with oil. I can still hear the water trickling from the tiny spigot that she put her hands into to begin the anointing. I can still hear the sing-song monotone of her memorized washing and anointing dialogue.

This is not about a tiny tap on an imaginary dot of the skin. Your body is stroked in a 2" to 3" area in a downward motion.and all down the legs onto to the toes. You do not know exactly where they will touch you. You only know the general area. It is very uncomfortable as these women are usually older-retirement age of 65 to 75 and their head is outside the sheet. They cannot see where they hands are unless they look under the tunic where the sides are open. They open the sheet on the sides to begin.

Imagine a woman's hand under the sheet (for women-man for men) each time they say a body part, making a sliding motion of about 2" to 4" in some areas...with the four fingers of the right hand over the body part -probably trying to be very careful they do not touch the actual breast-nipple area for women, or the pelvic hair-penis scrotum area for men when they get to the words that correspond with that part of the body.
Sometimes, I had to stifle a giggle as the old woman inadvertently tickled me and I squirmed. I tried to sit really, really still so she would not slide her wet, warm oily hand anywhere it ought not to be as her face was averted outside the sheet and she could not see where she had her hands. Sometimes she slid her hands within inches of my breasts and pubic hair as she slid her hands around in her predetermined and well practiced path. I always hated it and I would shudder when she slide those warm, oily hands down my legs onto my feet. When she finished she would help me step into my underwear, while still wearing that sheet tunic, adjusting it properly and sending me out into the dressing area where dozens of other women were coming and going. I was often hugged had the feeling she wanted to kiss me, she was so pleased. I still shudder.

The washings and anointing are only required the first time you go to the temple now as these ordinances are done in blocks by people who do only those kinds of sessions.

If you go through as proxy for any dead relative (post-mortem conversions)! you must do the washing and anointing along with it. Years ago, we did the washing and anointing and the endowment session for the same name all in one evening. Sometimes doing two sessions for two deceased people.

The part that is so unethical and disrespectful is that no one tells the new initiate anything ahead of time. You go and do what dozens of other people are doing. It is very difficult to leave once you get in the temple. It can be done, I know, I have watched people do it, but it is rare. This is group pressure at it's most intense.

Under no other circumstances would anyone even dare to consider that you would strip naked, put on a shield-tunic, as it is called, and carry your underwear and go into a small room alone with someone you do not know while they whisper memorized, ritualistic dialogue, usually with a breath mint in their mouth. Then help dress you by helping you put on the temple garment.

The Mormon church has no policy for full disclosure or they would disclose every single thing about their history, their finances and their temple ceremonies to anyone who investigates or/or joins. I maintain if these practices were made public, very few people would be interested in going to any of their temples - ever!

Originally, I am told, this was a complete washing and anointing, similar to some other religious customs.

There is no redeeming value to it. There is nothing spiritual about putting on a tunic, open at the sides, made from a sheet and carrying your skivvies into a little room to have your naked body touched by someone you do not know.

This is about total submission, control, stripping you down and dressing the surprised, new initiate with physical touching under a flimsy tunic then dressing you!

To even suggest this bazaar, outlandish, absurd act is spiritual reeks of a complete lack of common sense and respect. It is humiliating. I have never been so mortified in my life. It is a flagrant assault on one's self respect and dignity.

The arrogance of Mormonism to assume that they had any right to touch anyone's naked body without full disclosure and full permission is out of the realm of common decency. This is the most despicable, horrid, spiritual abuse of another human being imaginable but it must be done if they are to get your total submission. This is the final frontier of breaking down boundaries - your naked body!

It is an invasion, and done in a setting with a lot of other people so you go along because the rest are doing it, at least the first time anyhow. You are programmed to believe that there is nothing that can harm you so when you feel violated and invaded, you are stuck with the mental gymnastics of trying to make sense of it. Somehow, you must make a bizarre experience seem spiritual and good. Surely it is not the church that is doing bad things, it must be me. So it goes on, around and around in circles. Always making you the one that is at fault, never the church.

The genius of the temple, especially the washing and anointing and the endowment is to keep the person totally committed, paying tithing and under their control. And it works.
How does the Mormon church get old Mormon men and women to believe it is a sacred ordinance to touch your naked body under a sheet with little dabs of water then oil while you sit in a small cubicle?

The unbelievable thing is that the church does such a good job of programming the new converts and new initiate to the notion that this is spiritual, a higher law, you are special, God wants you to do this. They get thousands of members to go to the temple thousands of times over their lifetime to continue this programming and brainwashing.
What we will do in the name of pleasing the Mormon God!

The only way you get people to do this is through extreme programming and no prior specific information. It must be done while a large group of other people are doing the same thing so it is seen as acceptable in the eyes of the Mormon God.

Once you stop going to church, stop attending any function, stop reading any of their programmed literature, you begin to separate and disconnect and break the code. Then you can see it for what it is. Blatant cult or cultish activities, although very subtle and well designed to subjugate to them forever.

Subject:	I was just coming back to thank you......unbelievable!
Date:	Jun 06 01:01
Author:	Giselle
Mail Address:

First,I was just coming back to thank all of you who had answered my question this afternoon. I am incredibly grateful for the information you gave me. In fact, I just hung up the phone with the missionaries after telling them that I have cancelled our baptism for this Friday. I was shocked to find out that the question I had was indeed just the tip of a huge iceberg.I spent the afternoon referencing the links that many of you gave me.

I feel incredibly betrayed by the missionaries whom we had become very fond of. It was not an easy phone call. I am also sad that my daughter has to suffer the fall-out of ending friendships that had just begun. I dont wish this experience on anybody! I am sick to my stomach.

If this werent enough, I then came to the board to find the "Follow-Up" message thread. Double whammy shock to the system today.

You stopped me from making what would have been a HUGE mistake. Please......consider carefully before you jump on someone. I was only 2 days away from being baptized!!! Giselle

Subject:	Missionaries aren't such bad guys!
Date:	Jun 06 01:07
Author:	Kristen77

Good for you! But please, don't feel betrayed by the nice missionaries, for all they know, they are spreading the "word of God" and they believe that what they are doing is right and good! They're probably good nice kids, poor guys. But I am so glad you made the decision you did. Only because, as a girl who was raised in the church, I think you're better off doing this now rather than have miserable experiences and leaving later. You will be happy w/o the strict confining policies of the church. Good Luck!

Subject:	Re: Missionaries aren't such bad guys!
Date:	Jun 06 08:46
Author:	Stray Mutt

These 19-to-21-year-old guys don't know that much about the church themsleves. Like any good salesman, they're taught to stick as close to the script as possible and not to get into issues that just "confuse" the message. They're doing what they were told and most of them really believe it and want to do what they think is the right thing. Others are conflicted and trying to convince themselves while they try to convince others.

The trouble is, their view of the church has been as carefully crafted as yours. A lot of them just grew up in the church doing what Mormons do without giving it much thought. They spent their formative years in classes that first told them what their questions were and then gave them shallow answers -- a lot like your missionary discussions. Being a Mormon for many of them is cultural, it's their heritage, and in the same way most people never really question their nationality, they don't really question their religion. If they have problems with certain aspects of the church, they're more likely to blame themselves for not having enough faith.

So I wouldn't hold a grudge against them. their only faults are being poorly informed and eager to please.

Subject:	Re: I was just coming back to thank you......unbelievable!
Date:	Jun 06 01:19
Author:	RichardSLC
Mail Address:

I agree with what Kristen77 wrote about the missionaries. They are just doing what they think is right, or at least what they think they should be doing. I also think that what Susan wrote about not jumping on people harshly, even if they might be a troll or post out of some other agenda. Erring on the side of compassion is always better than showing our expertise at recognizing trolls and dealing with them in a non compassionate way.

You came close to taking an unfortunate step, but you saved yourself from much future grief. You showed courage to investigate right up to the last minute, and you made the right decision even as you were about to take the plunge.

Congratulations!

Subject:	P.S.
Date:	Jun 06 01:12
Author:	Giselle
Mail Address:

I forgot to tell you that the reason I came here, is that the pro-Mormon sites were giving me nothing but trite platitudes. Giselle

Subject:	Trite Platitudes is all the Mormons have as you found out.
Date:	Jun 06 02:05
Author:	SusieQ#1

All the Mormon Church has as it's foundation is alleged-claimed visions. Nothing else.

Subject:	thank you for sharing (nt)
Date:	Jun 06 10:10
Author:	then again
Mail Address:

Subject:	you made the right decision n/t
Date:	Jun 06 11:04
Author:	sunny
Mail Address:

Subject:	Same here, Giselle
Date:	Jun 06 11:17
Author:	Lilith
Mail Address:

In trying to understand the religion I went to their sites first. Found they really taught nothing of the doctrine there. Their answer would be that they give you what you can handle, but in truth they give only what the thinking person can stomach. Of course their answer to that (because they have an answer to everything)is that the Holy Ghost has just not given me the greater understanding, but I believe..no I KNOW...that what I have been given is a brain..AND the power of discernment...called a BS detector..Thank you, God, for this Gift of Spirit. :)

Subject:	Re: P.S.
Date:	Jun 06 11:21
Author:	2bot3bot
Mail Address:

Just be careful who and what you believe on this site as well. I came here to get the “other side of the story” however I have found that a lot of what people say here is fueled by emotion instead of logic.

Subject:	2bot3bot - you just described the Mormon Church Very well,.
Date:	Jun 06 11:30
Author:	SusieQ#1

I would only add one thing -
ALL of what they say (the Mormon Church) is fueled by emotion instead of logic. Mormonism is based on feelings (the burning in the bosom)which they tell you is confirmation from the Holy Gost of a witness of the truthfulness of their story. How truthful is that, really?

The whole thing is based on using our normal natural inclinations as human beings to be nice to people, and to enjoy warm associations and to feel loved and accepted. Then it is used to extract a very high price,and not just the 10% of your income for you life. You are expected to be obedient, not to question and to give all that you have to the church, to dedicate your whole life and to die for it if called upon to do so.
All this just because you have warm fuzzies???

And yes, people are often extremely angry when they are treated badly with no recourse but to leave. They also sacrifice a lot. Some loose their family, their contracts, their career, etc. Some have to move and start over. And for what? Just because TBM's well entrenched in the cult-like mind set are unable to respect freedom of religion!
Does not say much for Mormonism, does it?

So much for the pretty picture they paint!

Subject:	Right, leaving a falsehood doesn't guarantee that one will then find the truth.
Date:	Jun 06 13:52
Author:	DeafGuy
Mail Address:

This is why we need to maintain a healthy skepticism of all claims out there.

Subject:	Emotions are valid
Date:	Jun 06 15:38
Author:	sunny
Mail Address:

and some here have some very strong ones as a result of the BS they have gone through. True, you must figure out logically that the church is not true, but often that comes after initial emotional turmoil.

Subject:	Hope You'll Hang Around
Date:	Jun 06 11:52
Author:	SL Cabbie
Mail Address:

You sound like a nice, open-minded person, and we can never have too many of those. There's a lot of interesting stuff that comes out of this place.
Have to disagree with 2bot3bot about there being a lot of people whose postings should be taken with a grain of salt. On the factual stuff, I've found overwhelming accuracy with a few insignificant exceptions. On the opinion stuff, who cares? I think my opinions are right, but it's the church whose hidden agenda is to make everyone a Stepford clone of everone else with 5.7 children and a minivan and aspirations to own an SUV.
Course, what do I know. I'm just a dumb cabdriver.

Subject:	You'll never get a straight answer from the Morg...
Date:	Jun 06 12:03
Author:	CO2
Mail Address:

In fact, you'll be made to feel "unworthy" if you don't believe in the same myths that they do.

Good luck!

Subject:	The LDS Church is threatened by the internet
Date:	Jun 06 15:31
Author:	Kim

Giselle, just be glad that you have resources available on the internet like this so that you can educate yourself about things...in this case, religion. Of course, you should always objectively look at all sides of an issue.

Before the internet, information about the L.D.S. Church pro and con, was obviously much less easily obtained. If you just listen to the missionaries and members who are befriending you, you are only getting one side of the story. Of course if you just base your decision on what you read on this website, you are also only getting one side of the story, the other side. Investigating both sides is the important thing to remember that is necessary. Don't make any decision to please anyone other than yourself. You, yourself, get to choose what makes YOU happy.

You may be interested to know that the LDS Church does not allow its missionaries to have their own computers. Think how easy it would be for missionaries to have their own laptops and communicate with their families weekly by email rather than by regular mail which sometimes can take weeks. The missionaries are young and impressionable. Think why the "church" sends young men at age 19 and women at 21. Perhaps the "church" would be too concerned that the missionaries themselves would stray if they started reading sites like this. They probably honestly are more concerned that they'll be too tempted by porn online. In any case, the church likes to control its members thinking. It hates sites like this that point out its negative aspects, obviously. The LDS Church would get more of my respect if it trusted its own members and especially its missionaries enough to allow them access to all information available. After all, if it is so confident to be "the one true" church, what does it have to fear? What is it trying to hide?

Subject:	Stake Relief Society Pres. just called.....too much stress!
Date:	Jun 06 12:20
Author:	Giselle
Mail Address:

Hi everyone,

I just walked in the door after dropping son at work. I haven't even had time to read your posts yet (thanks BTW), and there is a message on my phone from the Stake Relief Society Pres., she wants me to call her!

I have barely been able to get out of the bathroom since yesterday (don't mean to be crude), cuz I am a nervous wreck from all of this.

Now what?? Any advice for talking to her? Will people keep calling me and questioning me? I told the missionaries last night that I was not willing to make any other apptointments or anything at this point. I don't want to be rude.

Thanks again, Giselle

Subject:	Re: Stake Relief Society Pres. just called.....too much stress!
Date:	Jun 06 12:24
Author:	Switz

You will be inundated now for awhile. If it were me I wouldn't return the call. Just ignore it. If you get more, do the same. If they do get through to you simply tell them you aren't interested in their message and hang up on them. They WILL get the message.

Subject:	You may have to be rude.
Date:	Jun 06 12:26
Author:	Zapotec
Mail Address:

What they are doing is putting on a "full-court press." They thought they had a "golden" convert when you agreed to baptism, but now that you have wriggled off their hook they are very reluctant to let you go.
Stand by your guns, and don't let them pressure you. Don't return the telephone call, and when they call you back (which they will) tell them to leave you alone. Don't give them ANY control over you.
It will be stressful on you, but remember that the Mormons don't give a damn. If they can get you into the water by browbeating you, they will do it. You may even have to threaten to call the police and report them for harassment before they back off. But, don't give in to them.

Subject:	How about this.
Date:	Jun 06 12:27
Author:	Lilith
Mail Address:

Just tell her that you believe a life changing decision this big should be given more time, AND finding what you did about the deeper beliefs of the church, you don't want to join unless and until you can bring your whole family together...families are most important in the church, RIGHT?

Subject:	Wouldn't this be an open invitation to harass her and her family for the next 10 years? nt
Date:	Jun 06 12:55
Author:	Socrates
Mail Address:

Subject:	Unfortunately, rudeness may be necessary . . .
Date:	Jun 06 12:30
Author:	Schweizerkind

These people apparently think they have a "live one" on their hands and that if they apply just a little more "love," which really means emotional manipulation and pressure, they will have you.

To make it clear to them that you are off their hook, I would call the RS pres and keep the conversation to a short and sweet declaration that you will not be baptized, period, and that you desire no more contact. Any attempt on her part to prolong the conversation beyond that should be cut off, and if curtness is necessary, curtness is necessary.

Now-is-the-time-for-assertiveness-ly yours,

S

Subject:	here's how I would respond.... will leave them speechless
Date:	Jun 06 12:47
Author:	Mr X
Mail Address:

In looking up information about Joseph Smith, I found out that he not only started Mormon polygamy with a so-called “revelation from God” but he married over 30 women, including about 10 who were married to other men at the time, and about another 10 teenagers (ages from 14 to about 20). Also, most of these marriages of Joseph Smith were done in secret behind the back of Emma.

This is disgusting. If a religious leader today tried all these wacky marriages, he’d be on trial for numerous crimes, and few would join his religion.

So why should I join a religion started by a guy like Joseph Smith, whose marriages are highly objectionable to any normal human being?

I simply can’t trust a guy like Joseph Smith who had dozens of strange marriages, and now the modern Mormon church tries to cover it up or pretend it didn’t happen.

This is actual history, uncovered by many Mormon scholars, and not an “anti-Mormon trick.”

Any members who deny the strange marriages of JS simply don’t know what they are talking about, or wish to avoid uncomfortable facts.

End of story

Subject:	Been there, done that...
Date:	Jun 06 12:50
Author:	Aerojeen
Mail Address:

I've had a similar issue, with all "forces of goodness" rallying to "love me" into submission. I'm sure you've heard the "we just want to make sure you realize how much we care about you and your family"-type stuff.

Let me assure you of this: they don't respond in the way you want them to (e.g. leaving you alone) unless you DO get rude. My story includes a year-long struggle trying to be nice about it, when it finally took a call to the local police department (who also thought I was a nut-job, as they are also mostly TBMs). But they're required to take me seriously, so it worked.

Don't get stressed over this. It's just not worth it. Muster up all of the guts you can, and let them have it, once and for all. Don't leave any room for misinterpretation. Make sure they understand that if they contact you again in this regard, you will take action. Don't hesitate to mention that in this country we have a little right called Freedom of Religion which they are making a strong attempt to influence against your will. YOU CAN DO IT!

You are not alone. Good luck!

Subject:	Been there, done that...
Date:	Jun 06 12:50
Author:	Aerojeen
Mail Address:

Subject:	Here's what I did
Date:	Jun 06 12:55
Author:	Makurosu

When I left the Church and people started coming to my door, I told them that we would no longer be attending the LDS Church. They asked why, and I said "Because we don't believe in it." That's all I said. When they asked for more information, I said "I'd rather not get into it."

I think simply saying "I don't believe in it" is a good cutoff point. It frees you from induced guilt and fear, but doesn't give them enough information to start an argument with you.

BTW, I was shaking the first time I said that to someone. The next time it got easier. Now I'm able to tell them to get off my property before I call the police.

Subject:	you are not required to talk to anyone; You gave your...
Date:	Jun 06 12:58
Author:	Brenda
Mail Address:

answer to the missionarys and as you can see the news spread like wildfire. Sometimes it is best to just walk away.
They will be pressuring you endlessly if you give them the chance. Returning their calls only opens the door for them to harass you and your family. And don't think they will stop with you they will move the pressure tactics to all members of your family so forwarn all of them.
And just relax DO NOT LET THEM MAKE A NERVOUS WRECK OUT OF YOU.
Good luck and be thankful, Brenda

Subject:	Phone soliciting
Date:	Jun 06 13:00
Author:	Xman
Mail Address:

I would treat calls from the RS pres and any other
church folk just like I would an unwanted phone
solicter. Either screen the call or politely and assertively
cut them off if you do answer. They'll learn.

Subject:	You all ready told the Missionaries, NO NEED to say another word.
Date:	Jun 06 13:05
Author:	SusieQ#1

That is, unless you want to tell them EXACTLY why you are not joining.

It might be interesting if you wrote a two or three page letter about your reasons for not joining and mailed it! It probably won't change their minds, but might help you sort it all out in your mind and at least give them definitive reasons. Feel free to quote me if you want to use anything I have said here.

Just an idea!

Subject:	I am the PERFECT investigator....my story
Date:	Jun 06 13:05
Author:	Giselle

Subject:	CULT, CULT, CULT!
Date:	Jun 06 13:11
Author:	J. (not logged)
Mail Address:

send the clothes right back immediately!
i'm sorry 'bout the cost of p&p.
you've taken control now. see them off!!!
you'll soon make new, honest friends. it won't take too
long.
how desperate these people are for converts.

Subject:	Agreed, send them back.
Date:	Jun 06 13:33
Author:	larryex
Mail Address:

If they were charged to a credit card, have them reversed. You made the right decision. These people pray on your vulnerabilities.

Subject:	Re: I am the PERFECT investigator....my story
Date:	Jun 06 13:17
Author:	Switz

Giselle, I don't know where you live or your circumstances but..... when I officially left the mormon church (I hadn't been attending for 10 yrs) I joined the Catholic church and have been very happy ever since. I was raised a Lutheran so wasn't far from the Catholics while I was growing up. I too was at a vulnerable time of my life, 4 kids at home, husband totally disabled when the missionaries arrived on my doorstep. They offered me friendship and caring when I desperately needed it. It was all false. As soon as I was "wet" they left me totally alone. Where was the friendship and caring then? There wasn't any. I recommend you go back to your home church and condemn the Priests who were involved but hang on to your roots. There is pedophilia everywhere including the mormon church.

Subject:	Unfortunately Gisell the LDS has been hiding child abuse as well
Date:	Jun 06 13:20
Author:	CX
Mail Address:

have a look on this page... I think there's one case that beats the RCs hands down. Eleven children were abused over forty years and the church leaders were told NINE times. No one told the authorities!

Subject:	Send them right back!!
Date:	Jun 06 13:33
Author:	sunny
Mail Address:

Unfortunately they will now either pressure you more to commit or get frustrated with you and drop you like a hot potato. Keep coming here to this board for support-it really helps!

Subject:	OMG those despicable people! Check out this site..the BRT
Date:	Jun 06 13:42
Author:	SusieQ#1

method I was telling you about and lost. I finally found it!

Discussions http://www.lds4u.com/Discussions/Discussions.htm

Scroll down to PREPARE Building Relationships of TRUST~~~!!

I hope you get your shipping cost back! If not $25 was a small price to pay for what you said would be a huge mistake!

ALWAYS ALWAYS listen to yourself when you feel SCARED, it is a BIG OLD RED FLAG!

Subject:	Link: Building relationships of trust
Date:	Jun 06 14:22
Author:	Linker
Mail Address:

http://www.lds4u.com/Discussions/brt.htm

Subject:	I don't mean to diminish what you have gone through but my last check to the Church was
Date:	Jun 06 13:40
Author:	Socrates
Mail Address:

for $12,000. I suspect that in a month or two you will be laughing over this bizarre and insulting cult. Some of us have nothing BUT LDS family and friends and will NEVER fully get over the Church because it will NEVER leave us alone. I wish you all the best.

Subject:	Writing off your loss and moving on.
Date:	Jun 06 15:45
Author:	Xman
Mail Address:

I don't mean to minimize your pain and frustration either but consider yourself lucky to have made this important discovery and decison now rather than later with literally thousands of dollars (and hours) lost to the morg. I hope they give you a refund. It's worth a try. I wish I could get a refund for all the money they screwed me out of!

Subject:	Ouch!
Date:	Jun 06 15:51
Author:	Makurosu

Did you perchance do the same thing that I did? Which is, pay a full tithe as a final resort to know if the Church is true? I only got bit for $1400, but I'm rankled about it to this day. I try to think of it as $1400 well spent to gain certain knowledge that the Church is not what it claims. I know that seems gullible now, but I think I had to do that to end the fear.

Subject:	Its worse than that. I knew the Church was a fraud when I paid the $12,000.
Date:	Jun 06 16:09
Author:	Socrates
Mail Address:

But my wife was still a believer (I hadn't told her yet of my unbelief) and I had made the decision that I would do NOTHING to jeapordize our relationship. That included telling her about my conclusion that the Church was a fraud.

I was determined to wait until she figured it out on her own(with a little help from me). It took another year but she is out now and life is great. And yes, I think paying that last $12,000 was helpful for my wife in her journey out but for me, I'm still irritated.

Subject:	By the way, where do you live? There may be some local exmos willing to help out. nt
Date:	Jun 06 13:42
Author:	Socrates
Mail Address:

Subject:	Maybe I'm just being dumb here
Date:	Jun 06 13:47
Author:	LauraD.

but I never knew you had to buy your own baptismal clothes? I always thought the church had their own and used whatever was available.

Never mind I reread your post but I still have to question why you would spend that much money when there is something already available no matter how ugly it might be?

Subject:	About the dress...
Date:	Jun 06 15:51
Author:	Ann
Mail Address:

....I had a feeling it had something to do with the temple -- if you look under PRAVDA's post, Giselle mentions that the RS pres. said she could wear the new dress to the temple later on... what a sham......

Subject:	Don't give in!!
Date:	Jun 06 13:50
Author:	MoNoMo
Mail Address:

Giselle,
Though you are vulnerable at this time you have to make a very important decision which is to either give your power to the Mormon church and let them push you into the baptismal font or make a stand immediately and claim your sovereignty that you are entitled to. Believe me, they will not let up just because you decided not to get dunked. You will find out how REALLY sincere these people are once you draw the line. Be strong in your convictions and make the choice that benefits you, not some conglamorate corporation who could give a rats ass about you. I wish you the best. If you're lonely, hey, there are lots here to give you support. This is a great place to learn as the "wiser" generation is plentiful here. You will meet folks on this board who have spunk, humor and insight. Stick around.

Subject:	Giselle, please read this!!
Date:	Jun 06 14:00
Author:	PRAVDA
Mail Address:

Years go I was a teenager disenchanted with the Catholic church. In a new town and without friends, I was searching for something.

Along came the missionaries. I liked them a lot at first. Very friendly people, made me feel that they had something special and were sincere.

I got baptized in just a few weeks. I was converted trhough and through. I built my life on the mormon church. Eventually I served an "honorable" mission and later got married in the temple.

But soon after my baptism things weren't quite right. The original feeling of "family" was replaced with an endless list of things to do. Stake leaders became demanding for their monthly reports (I was a clerk). I found out about blacks and the priesthood, but at first I was so gung-ho about my newly discovered "truth" that I found a way to rationalize it (shame on me).

I also found out that the so-called prophet didn't believe in evolution. I rationalized that too.

In my mission I was as friendly as they come. I taught and converted many, even some of the toughest Jehova's Witnessess you'd ever meet. I was made an AP. I had the "golden touch". I coud persuade practically anyone using both "logic" and appealing to the spirit. I refined and perfected the lies (which I didn't know were lies at the time) I had been told about the church.

I have held many positions of leadership in the church in Europe and in the US. My testimony was strong and I was headed for even higher places. I was an expert at expounding the flaws in other churches so people would see that they needed the true Gospel to have all of God's blessings. One day I decided to turn all my know-how on the church itself, confident that, being the true church it would easily withstand the scrutiny.

But not so. Horrified, I found confrirmation to the fears that had nagged me all along:
-Joseph Smith's vision did not stand the scrutiny of real history.
-Brigham Young was just what the way Jack London depicts him in his writings.
-The Book of Mormon was a work of fiction.
-The Book of Abraham, an alleged ancient record found and translated by Joseph Smith is also fictional. The hyerogliphics from which he got his "translation" have nothing to do with what he wrote.
-Seems that almost every bit of positive contribution claimed by the church fell appart under scrutiny, including the word of wisdom, the literal interpretation of the Bible, the temple ceremonies, the gifts of their prophets and local leaders and so on.

I was devastated.

My spouse was in denial and eventually we had to go our separate ways.

I don't usually post anything here about my personal life, and I've already said too much, but I want you to understand that what it boils down to is a choice between a well presented fantasy and life as it really is.

In reality no one knows if there is a God, and if there is one no one knows if he/she/it cares abut us. And no caring god would separate you from your child just because you choose to live your life based on truth, rather than lies and myths.

Don't waste your time on religion, and just go on and live your life. Find joy every day and help others. You will be much happier.

Good luck, and chance bless.

Subject:	Giselle, If you back out now, once you're this close...
Date:	Jun 06 15:04
Author:	Kim

Giselle, If you back out now to being baptized, once you're this close, you may want to pay close attention to just how desperate the missionaries and the LDS members you've met become to try to convince you to change your mind. You need to be able to step back one step from the situation and look objectively at what is going on, setting all emotions aside. I suspect they'll begin dishing out large amounts of guilt and try to make you believe that by not being baptized you will be forfeiting your chance for eternal salvation, true happiness, etc. Perhaps they'll even steer toward their perceived negative results, such as telling you that you will face certain damnation. If they become confrontational at all like this, it's probably a good sign that they just want you for another statistic.

The mormons cite over and over a scripture (I'm no scriptorian by any means, so I can't tell you where it is) that says, "how great shall be your joy if you bring but one soul unto me..." I know that they honestly believe that they will be getting an extra scoop of ice cream or something in heaven. Do realize that they are in this as much, if not more, for themselves than for YOUR happiness. I've seen it many times that people get all kinds of attention BEFORE they are baptized, but afterward, they are dropped like a hot potato. They're moving on to the next "soul to save."

They likely sincerely believe that what they are telling you is the truth. There are too many bizarre facets and negative aspects about the mormon church that they try to hide under the rug for it to be that "one true church" that they love to claim. You certainly should not join if you have any doubts at all, and it sounds like you do.

My suggestion to you is to bow out gracefully. I would just explain to them that you have thought long and hard about it and it just isn't going to work for you. Period. To become confrontational at all really gets you nowhere. If they were smart, they would do the same and politely leave you alone, but I think you'll see that they won't let you go quite that easily. That right there will be the biggest clue that they are in this for themselves and NOT for you...otherwise they would simply respect your wishes.

Subject:	"....just go on and live your life..."
Date:	Jun 06 15:12
Author:	Ann
Mail Address:

Thanks for sharing your story, PRAVDA -- I needed to hear that today.

Subject:	What's GOD got to do with it?
Date:	Jun 06 17:49
Author:	PRAVDA
Mail Address:

jcubes, I don't blame God, I just don't believe in religion anymore, and it's because personal, carefuly thought-out convicions, not because of how the events of my life have unfolded.

You are right, I probably wouldn't be able to convert you. I make no apologies for having been gullible enough to believe in it at first. I am glad you didn't.

Subject:	"What's GOD got to do with it?" That's my favorite Tina Turner song. ;0) n/t
Date:	Jun 06 19:02
Author:	Booger King
Mail Address:

Subject:	some cures for loneliness
Date:	Jun 06 15:32
Author:	tri girl
Mail Address:

When I got divorced and left the church, I had no friends other than coworkers. I was very lonely but once I got involved in some fun things, I started meeting people and I soon had a new circle of friends. Here are some ideas for you:

- if you are fitness inclined, sign up for local fun runs/walks. You will find all kinds of people who do them.

- if you are not fitness inclined, volunteer for fun runs/walks. They are always looking for people to man the gatorade stations, hand out race numbers and cheer people on.

- take some community center or college classes for fun. I took some photo classes and had a ball.

- get on the web and check out your community chamber of commerce. They have lots of activities to get involved in such as gardening, performing arts, festivals, recycling projects and civic projects.

- if you work, check to see if they have any recreational clubs. I work for a large company and they have clubs for anything and everything you can think of. They are open to spouses and families so if you don't work but your husband does, his company might have clubs.

I always found friendships in the mormon church to be very shallow and fake. They were there because they had to be. When you get involved in clubs and the community- people are there because they want to be. So get out there and participate in life : )

Subject:	I understand about being new in town and lonely
Date:	Jun 06 15:36
Author:	Violotron
Mail Address:

When I first moved out of Utah, I felt very lonely and was vulnerable. I was no longer mormon, so I wasn't vulnerable to any missionaries. However one day a cleaning salesman knocked on my door.......

That was over a dozen years ago, I still have some of those cleaning products!

It will take time, but you will meet new friends and eventually feel less lonely. Take a community class this summer if possible, or get involved in a club. Take care Giselle (btw, I LOVE that name)

Subject:	Wonderful thread for the archive.
Date:	Jun 06 20:07
Author:	girl in the box
Mail Address:

Your words may help other investigators in the future decide what's right for them. Thanks for sharing!

Subject:	Stake RS Society phone call.....outrage!!!
Date:	Jun 06 23:25
Author:	Giselle
Mail Address:

I can hardly type this as my hands shake with anger. All of you were right, the pressure is starting. As I mentioned this morning, the Stake RS Pres. called as I was barely rolling out of bed. I had not intended to return the call, but my daughter got a phone call from one of the girls in the young womens group. This young woman, who had barely had time for my daughter left a message saying that she lover her. Both were messages on our machine. I felt I had to return my phone call to run interferance for my daughter.

What happened next is beyond unbelievable! It seems that last night, as soon as I had hung up from telling the missionaries that our baptism was cancelled, they called her. They proceeded to tell her WORD FOR WORD what I had told them my reasons were. This was private, sensitive, family information. I know, I guess I am a fool, but I never thought they would just go and repeat EVERYTHING without at least asking me if it was ok!!!! I actually thought we had a relationship that was respectful.

She proceeded to tell me that I had only part of the information, that I simply misunderstood, my information was sort of correct but not complete, and that this was the Adversary working on me. And as I lost control and sobbed to her that I could never do anything that would devide my family, or deny my husbands presence at our daughters marriage, she proceeded to tell me that I would feel TREMENDOUS RELIEF AFTER BAPTISM!!! Then she asked me if we could just meet and straighten this all out. I said no. She said ok, and then she said she would call again to check in. Click.

Did she not hear me?????? And could you please tell me what you think this girl might say to my daughter? I will NOT let anyone hurt her!!

I am horrified. Sorry to sound so out of control....thanks, Giselle

Subject:	Simply hang up
Date:	Jun 06 23:32
Author:	J. (not logged)
Mail Address:

next time this moron calls. no ifs, no buts, just put the phone down
on them next time they call (should you be there) or don't return any
messages.
blank them.
because if you don't say anything they won't be able to twist your
words to hurt them.
i'm a never mo so can't suggest what exactly they may say to your
daughter. but i expect they'd try to guilt trip her and twist anything
she may say too.
it IS a CULT. be glad you've escaped.
take NO MORE from them. they are sick. you are not.
stop shaking. reclaim your life.

Subject:	Very Good Advice!
Date:	Jun 07 00:24
Author:	Free At Last!
Mail Address:

Subject:	Re: Stake RS Society phone call.....outrage!!!
Date:	Jun 06 23:38
Author:	Kristen77

Giselle, I am not as good as the rest of the gang in helping you out, but I just want to tell you that I am so sorry you are having to go through this. They think that what they are doing is the ONLY right thing and that you MUST join the church or you will be forever lost! They think they are helping you. I think it's very strange that they go chatting about your conversation word for word- that sounds alot like poeple in the church, tho. What's this about your daughter? Why are you so afraid of what'll happen to her? Clear me up on that part. I am 24 years old, and I was raised completely immersed in the church in every way possible, and it has taken me alot of time to finally realize that it was dragging me down and making me MISERABLE! I am still working through the after shock of it all. Just be glad that you never got that far, and try not to be so upset. I hope I can help you in whatever way I can! Please let me know. Are you in AZ??? :o) -Kristen

Subject:	No Privacy in Mormonism
Date:	Jun 06 23:46
Author:	Gail
Mail Address:

Giselle:

Mormons do not have the same respect for
confidentiality that other religious groups have. What is
said to one is said to the collective. They do not have
respect for boundaries most other people take for
granted. Just something to consider. Meet people at
the YMCA. Family stuff there. Also, get kids into soccer
(rec league). Meet the moms and make friends that
way. It takes longer but the relationships build and
strengthen over time. Lovebombing wears off fast. The
minute you show igns of disagreeing with the group,
you are ostracized by the LDS. Good luck to you!

Gail

Subject:	Re: Stake RS Society phone call.....outrage!!!
Date:	Jun 06 23:50
Author:	jolimont

I didn't follow your threads, so I don't know what to say about your daughter, but it seems to me you are doing a good job resisting the pressure. Missionaries will do anything to get someone baptized, but the fact that they are asking the RS Pres to help them get you back tells me they know you're going to be a tough nut to crack! Hold your ground, next time someone calls tell them to back off that you're not going to change your mind. Congrats for escaping the smoothest cult in the world!

Subject:	Your outrage is well placed . . . and this may not help but . . .
Date:	Jun 06 23:50
Author:	sonoflds
Mail Address:

aren't you glad you found out now instead of 1-2 years from now?

Glad you dodged that bullet.

Welcome to the Board. =)

Subject:	Hang in there Giselle.
Date:	Jun 06 23:54
Author:	Dark Sparks
Mail Address:

These people mean well, but they will try subconscously to manipulate you with every means possible...especially guilt.

Remember, this church is a man made bunch of cow fodder and the only real effect they have on anyone is on those who allow it.

You don't have to allow it. Just ignore them and they will eventually give up.

Warm feelings from Dark Sparks.

Subject:	Get mad!
Date:	Jun 06 23:55
Author:	Norm

Just plain get mad! Tell them to get the f... out of your life! You made a decision and they have to respect it. Tell them to stay away from your house and children. If they don't quit, you will call the bishop and give them hell. You'll get in touch with the local newspaper and show how much they harrass your family.

Let me tell, that will work!

Keep us in touch!

Subject:	Does anyone have the statistics on how many converts per missionary?..
Date:	Jun 07 00:17
Author:	Just asking
Mail Address:

I have heard that some missionaries have no converts, some as many as 15 if lucky, but more likely the average is about 4 or 5. Do I remember correctly?

So Giselle, your missionaries just lost 2 golden opportunities to go home and brag. That's why they are desperate. You may be their last hope. Who knows, maybe they will start to wonder why so many people are turning them down. Stick to yer guns, gal, and stick with us. We'll help you through this.

Subject:	I think that the average mishie
Date:	Jun 07 01:08
Author:	Ex Lax Joe
Mail Address:

gets around 4 baptisms (either per year or per mission?) This came up a while back, but I don't have time to find the thread right now. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Ex Lax Joe

Subject:	baptisms vary wildly depending on the mission
Date:	Jun 07 08:51
Author:	someone
Mail Address:

some missions average 2 (mine in illinois) some in south america probably average several times that per month.

Subject:	The Relief Society lady and the young woman
Date:	Jun 07 00:29
Author:	Lenny
Mail Address:

probably feel awkward doing what they are doing. They've just been guilted into doing it because they think it's their responsibility as Mor(m)ons to help get you baptized. They probably aren't bad people and will give up when they realize that you are firm in your decision. There's no need to panic or worry about them causing harm to you or your daughter. The missionaries probably thought in desperation that some additional "fellowshipping" (as they call it) from these two ladies would be enough to turn you around again. Just be calm and firm. Tell them you know what you're doing and do not want to be contacted further and that if you change your mind you will contact them.

Subject:	Protecting my daughter
Date:	Jun 07 01:03
Author:	Giselle
Mail Address:

What I mean about my daughter is that I feel very protective of her emotionally. She has tried so hard to make friends since we moved, very hard at 16, people don't let you in. She left a best friend behind. So I am just worried about anybody using friendship as a way to guilt her back to the church, or anybody questioning her and making her feel guilty. Perhaps even worse, eternal damnation and such. Thats the stuff I meant. Thanks, Giselle

Subject:	Re: Protecting my daughter
Date:	Jun 07 01:07
Author:	Kristen77

Believe me, she does not want to get involved with that crowd. Nothing she will do will ever make her feel completely accepted. Even I, who was raised in the church, always felt "not good enough" among those girls in the church (not in school! I had tons of fun in H.S. without those prissy mormon girls!) But around them I felt inadequate! She's better off.

Subject:	I understand. I hope your daughter can
Date:	Jun 07 02:06
Author:	Lenny
Mail Address:

find some good friends through some nice organizations or activities.

Maybe you can download some of the materials linked on the first page of this website and become an expert at the facts of Mormonism. When you know more about Mormonism than the Mormons do, they often become scared of you and don't try to bother you because they are afraid of the facts you know and are afraid of losing their "testimonies."

Subject:	Re: sadness, sickness, betrayal.....outrage!!!
Date:	Jun 07 01:00
Author:	Nightingale

Hi Giselle:
I tried to respond to you last night, having been impacted by your posts, but when I hit "send", my reply just exploded and as it was 2:00 a.m. I gave up. Let me try again, especially as you have posted again tonight. I'm sorry that you've had a challenging week and it sounds like you're going to have to get really tough to withstand the pressure that is sure to continue coming your way after cancelling your baptism. I have read all your posts and identified somewhat with your situation as I have felt the extreme pressure to be baptized, the doubts and the intensifying pressure to ignore my own gut feelings, etc.

I took the discussions and was baptized a few yrs ago, in spite of misgivings before, and certainly at, my baptism. Basically, things just went downhill from there. I am just managing to work thru some of the negative stuff now, over 2 yrs after leaving the church.

I'm glad your son did some research on the church and that you followed up on it. You did well to cancel the baptisms despite feeling so badly about it, despite your warm feelings for the missionaries and despite the pressure to change your mind. It's good that you recognize why you are "the perfect investigator" - that will help you to find other avenues to meet the needs you (understandably) have.

I too felt "betrayed" by the missionaries. I thought I had been so careful in my "research" before I consented to baptism, and so "strong" to withstand the high pressure sales techniques to get me baptized. (The intensity of the pressure should be a BIG RED FLAG OF CAUTION. What possible GOOD REASON could there be for that?) I made the great mistake, though, of asking the MISSIONARIES to answer most of my questions. After the 6 discussions, I asked them to tell me the rest of the church's doctrine. They assured me, "that's all there is." I well knew "anti" points to bring up with them; points re JS's personal life, church history, doctrinal matters. They clearly and seemingly honestly refuted every point, telling me it wasn't true, it was just anti-Mormon lies. To my continued shame, I believed them without questioning them closely enough or utilizing other resources.

After my baptism, I stumbled across teachings that the missionaries either hadn't told me about or had said were NOT taught, teachings that went against my deeply held spiritual beliefs, teachings that if I had known about, I would not have been baptized. I was rigid with shock, feeling that I had been purposefully deceived, lied to, by people I had trusted, who I thought cared about me. I suffered with terrible feelings of betrayal. I kept saying, "It's not like I didn't ASK them." I came to accept later that the missionaries don't necessarily know about their own church history and doctrine and that they are taught a very narrow focus of what to discuss with "investigators". That helped a little to allay the shocking feeling of being personally betrayed.

Prior to my baptism, I had several very negative experiences, which continued even more strongly on the day and evening of my baptism service. The missionaries acknowledged this was true, but when I said my gut feeling was that I shouldn't go thru with this, it feels so wrong, their reply was, "Satan is trying to keep you out of the true church." I bought it. Seemed like a good explanation for the chaos and dissonance I was already experiencing. After my baptism, when my church experience wasn't getting any better, the missionaries told me, "Satan is trying to make you go inactive." Of course, to counteract that, the solution was to keep very busy in the church. (!!) They even said, "You must have been so valiant in the pre-existence to be going through such trials."

I started my trek out of the church when I finally realized all the negative experiences, anguish, hurt, lost sleep, anxiety, etc. came into my life BECAUSE OF THE CHURCH. In a sense, it was like taking my own power back rather than conceding to the convenient ploy that "Satan" was trying to destroy my faith.

My reply last night, Giselle, was going to warn you not to be surprised when missionaries and/or church members call and tell you that you should go ahead and get baptized and then you'll feel better. Looks like that has already, predictably, happened. Outrage is good. It will increase your strength to withstand the inappropriate pressure that people will try to lay on you. As several posters here have said, what's the rush, if it's the right thing, it'll still be there tomorrow, next week, next year.

I generally try hard not to give specific advice, as everyone's situation is different and, of course, no-one can tell you what you "should" do. BUT, I'd like to state the following, hoping it will be of some help.

To try and get to the "you'll feel better after baptism" part (that never happened) I plunged into member missionary work, callings, church activities, and blazed a trail speedily to the nearest temple as soon as I was "worthy" to go, thinking that would somehow expunge the negative experiences. It made things much worse. And I kept going back to the temple, thinking that if I could just have a wonderful spiritual experience, all the pain would be of no consequence. This was not a healthy action plan for me. I can see now how illogical it was for me to plunge repeatedly and more deeply into the very pool that was making me so sick, physically and spiritually.

So, now I offer my "non-advice":

1. I would think twice about taking phone calls from church members, including missionaries. Don't feel obligated to do so. Ignoring calls is not avoiding the issue, as you have already clearly indicated your decision to them. They just aren't going to readily accept it.

2. In my experience, no amount of discussion will get them to respect your decision. Whatever you say, they will keep trying to persuade you to change your mind. They think they know "the truth" and that you need help to see it. They will not hear your explanations as a "no" answer. As long as you keep trying to explain, they will consider that you are open to persuasion. So, it seems necessary to just say "no", without using up vital energy in discussions with them that could be literally endless.

3. Remember that they all have vested interests in you and your daughter getting baptized. It is not about what is right for you. What seems like personal interest in you is largely just an interest in getting another baptism.

4. It sounds like you have made a firm decision to back off from the church. So, what else is there to talk about with them? (This relates to #1.) You don't need to hear all the stock phrases they will use to persuade you to go ahead with baptism. And for your own peace of mind, you don't need to keep talking to them about it.

5. Part of the wrestling I did with all this was thinking that "they mean well". So what. That may be true but it's no reason to make wrong choices for your life.

6. I have found that space/distance from the pressure helps to clear your mind. As long as you are using up energy dealing with the pressure, you can't think straight to process all this.

Giselle: New converts I have known, whose husbands are not church members, seem very unhappy. Generally, they have trouble staying "active", feel distressed because of being constantly told that their family will not be together in eternity unless they can convert their husband, feel overburdened by church callings and activities when they are dealing with being a "part member" family and generally seem to be struggling all the time with one issue or another. I have never seen these circumstances maintain or improve a marriage. In fact, a friend of mine whose husband stated categorically that he would never join the church, was actually counselled by church members, including the bishopric, to leave her husband and remarry a TBM so she could make sure of spending eternity with her children. This from a "family church"??!! Unbelievable to me to this very day.

Yes, there are sadnesses to all of this. I have cried plenty myself today reading your posts, Giselle, which have obviously brought to the forefront for me a lot of the issues I am trying to work thru myself.

Part of your great sadness, you say, is that you thought you were "doing something positive" (by joining the church.) Well, you did something very positive by choosing to put your family first. That is a great value to uphold. It is astonishing to me that a church that so vocally claims to put families first wreaks such havoc within families. This fact is not readily visible from outside.

Hope to see you keep on coming back to the board for support and assistance. So glad you are so strong. Please feel welcome to Email me if that could be of any help to you. Take care!

Subject:	Re: sadness, sickness, betrayal.....outrage!!!
Date:	Jun 07 03:14
Author:	Giselle
Mail Address:

Nightingale, I can't thank you enough for the time you took to answer me so thoroughly, the information in your post sent chills through me. They used, almost verbatim, the phrase that "I had obviously been a very valient spirit in the pre-mortal to be picked now, to join the true church in such adversity." Sigh.....I had no idea, I fell for it.

The thing that is so very painful for me is that I feel like I am watching a movie of myself, and I almost couldn't stop the fast forward button. The early life trauma that I referred to in my "Perfect Investigator" thread makes me feel overly responsible for people, obligated, afraid to say "no". I struggle sometimes with boundaries.

Combine that with unhappiness in my home faith, moving to a new area, loneliness, and then BAM! These people want me, "love" me, even though I am damaged. They further hook me by telling me they all ready bought baptismal gifts. I can't possibly ruin this now!!

But, I have been experiencing that same sick feeling of anticipation you described, especially when my "friend" glazed over when we couldn't find baptismal clothes and simply said to overnight them from Utah, at my great expense. She implied that if I did not do this as a solution, I was not listening to the Spirit. And of course, it would be perfect to have for my first temple trip, how sentimental.

I truly take to heart all you said, about part-member women being the most unhappy. I am so sorry you had to go through such agony. And you must know, that your post (and the posts of others) has strengthened my resolve, though I still feel vulnerable and scared. I know you said distance would help.

Thank you Nightingale, and everyone. Giselle

Subject:	Hey, Giselle: You sound like me!
Date:	Jun 07 03:53
Author:	Nightingale
Mail Address:

Hi again, Giselle:
Obviously, we're both insomniacs, unless you are on another continent where it is daytime - I didn't catch where you live.

I'm sorry you're still feeling scared. Can you sort out what that's about? Yes, you're vulnerable but KNOWING that gives you strength too. Some replies here contain good suggestions for decreasing that vulnerability, healthy choices to help meet needs. Remember one reply that said there is no reason to feel scared, like physically afraid. "Cult" can be a scary word, I find too. The topic has been discussed here a fair bit lately. Many people don't consider Mormonism a cult - at least, not one of the hard-core types - guess it depends on your perspective. So, if that's what's causing you anxiety, maybe you can relax a bit on that score. I never felt afraid of the people and, honestly, I still think they don't mean any harm. Most of them do what they do out of good motives, they believe it's the truth, they don't realize how unpleasant it is to experience the pressure they exert.

You sound like me - easily feel obligated to people, trouble with boundaries and saying no, unhappiness in home faith. So far, you've done a great job of saying no and it gets easier with practice! I've been working on the boundary thing and it feels good to become more assertive.

So now I'm angry too - how ludicrous is it for them to say you can't "ruin" this for them, they've already bought your gifts. OK, really, I mean, isn't that RIDICULOUS, and it is the worst reason to get baptized I've heard in a very long time. It also bugs me that THEY tell YOU what message "the spirit" has for you - like "the spirit" can't just tell you without the intermediary??!! If you even believe that's how God works (for those who believe God exists/is active.) Reminds me of my visiting teachers who had a message for me from "the spirit" every month and always tried to convince me to take it seriously as the divine plan for my life. SO happy not to fight that battle every month!

Thanks for your sympathy. My experience of the church was very distressing and disillusioning, with lingering effects of some traumatic events. But I would feel a fraud claiming "agony" because, unlike many here, I got off fairly lightly, only in for a few yrs, no husband/no kids (part of the reason I REALLY didn't fit in), no relatives there, now - nil church presence where I live, very limited contact with the church, no TBMs in my town - really fortunate compared to many here, who can't get completely away from the church because of family/work circumstances.

Sleep tight, Giselle. Tomorrow, think of the positives as much as possible. Leave that phone on the answering machine if you like! Keep in touch with your BB pals here. Do something nice for yourself to celebrate a good non-baptismal day. Take care.

Nightingale

Subject:	Re: Hey, Giselle: You sound like me!
Date:	Jun 07 04:04
Author:	Giselle
Mail Address:

Hi Nightingale! I am a California insomniac, how about you, what area are you in? Yes, I am off to bed now too. More tomorrow, and thanks again! Giselle

Subject:	I'm wide awake in Western Canada, n/t
Date:	Jun 07 04:07
Author:	Nightingale
Mail Address:

Subject:	Re: I'm wide awake in Western Canada, n/t
Date:	Jun 07 04:16
Author:	Giselle
Mail Address:

This is just too funny!! I keep thinking, NOW I am going to bed....then I saw your message. Best/only giggle I have had all day! My insomnia is worse since all this happened.

Subject:	I'm going to be really crabby in a few hours when I...
Date:	Jun 07 04:23
Author:	Nightingale
Mail Address: