|Subject:||What was the straw that broke the Camel's back for you?|
|Date:||Jun 25 23:22|
|I've been glued to my computer for the past week reading everything
I can find about the Church. It's stuff that I never learned in seminary or Sunday School,
or the Temple and never in my wildest dreams could believe were true. I'm so angry right
now that I've inherited this big mess and have to figure it out in my '40's while my
husband thinks I've gone crazy. Sometimes I wonder. I'm being pulled in so many
directions. I've read so much, if it is all true, then I couldn't imagine going on as a
faithful member. After reading in on this site a few times, I noticed there are a lot of
intelligent people that must have been through the hell. What was it that made you so
certain that the Church isn't what it claims to be?
Help! I've already read about the Book of Abraham, Joseph's wives, the first vision, the endowment changes, and much much more. I just can't prove that the sites are reliable sources. How do you know these sources are reliable? I have a sick feeling that they are, but am stuck with my feelings and how to react.
|Subject:||I have no anger towards Mormons...|
|Date:||Jun 25 23:39|
|I resent the ideal that anyone has the right to judge anyone else.
Even TBMs believe that what they do is right "in the name of Christ."
If you believe that what you do is correct, then you should not have animosity, but perhaps compasion, towards those who have hurt you. You probably understand greater "love, compassion", etc.
|Subject:||Anger's a definite part of the recovery process...|
|Date:||Jun 26 00:20|
|...along with pain, denial, bargaining, and all the others. It may
take awhile to understand the difference between "Mormons" and
"Mormonism", realizing that the latter is the illness and the former the victims
- and yet so many of them seem to be willing, complicit victims, thus seeming to deserve a
share of the anger.
I would never tell a recovering Mormon not to feel anger, but I would caution against misdirected anger, as well as letting the anger eat you up before you have a chance to move beyond it.
There's time for all of that compassion crap later, once you get things worked out. Don't lay guilt trips on someone for resenting being lied to and abused...
|Subject:||You misunderstood my post - sorry if it was not clear|
|Date:||Jun 26 09:41|
|I wasn't trying to lay a guilt trip. I was trying to point out that,
the so called "apostates/sinners/heathens/etc." that I have met, tend to be much
kinder, compassionate and tolerant than many TBMs. One of the ways many TBMs validate
their righteousness is by judging/condeming the actions of others, and they can be down
However, the problem with being angry about being lied to is that, those people espousing their mormon beliefs were most likely not lying. If they treat you like crap because you stop believing the lie, then that is a different story. That's what makes me angry.
|Subject:||That's what I'd hoped...|
|Date:||Jun 26 19:09|
|...but no, your meaning wasn't clear to me. Thanks for taking the
time to clarify.
|Subject:||mission and disciplinary system.|
|Date:||Jun 26 15:52|
|The phony, ostracizing, controlling, disciplinary process. And on my mission I saw that non-member families were usually happier than Mormon families and I began to wonder why and think about the big picture.|
|Subject:||Jennie pooh, I think that you need to get out of la-la land . . .|
|Date:||Jun 26 20:08|
|I don't mean to be rude, but we have to judge. OK, so don't judge
the people, but you do need to judge behavior. There was hurtful behavior directed towards
me and my family that broke almost all of the ten commandments. Sorry, but I have had only
problems with LDS people breaking the ten commandments in my relationships. (And I am a
traveling woman and have seen much more than Mormonville). So I judge. I also say,
something is dysfunctional and on the "dark side." Here is a list of what has
happened in my life with LDS people in the past ten years:
1. Oral sex done on my seven-year old by neighbor children (all active LDS).
2. Two mutual leaders going actively after my husband . . . of course, my husband did not want them.
3. RS presidency and clique stalking my little girl -- they think she has too much freedom and so they tormented her.
4. Asking me personal questions like "How much money do you make?" in bishop meetings.
5. Gossip and spreading of false rumours about our family that circulated not only throughout the school, but ended up in my personnel file. BTW, this all done by the RS bitches with too much time on their hands. (I actually pressed religious discrimination suite against them after this).
6. The exclusion of my children from playing with their children. (Which is OK by me).
7. The stealing of my property in a devious business deal by a man who basically said, "You can trust me, I go to church every Sunday." That should have been a red flag right there for me and my husband. (Really, we should have listened to an attorney friend, but we were dumb and trusting).
7. The final straw, the SP telling me that I don't measure up to all of the LDS neighbors (and naming each one of them on the street by name). Then, the SP telling me that I am a bad mother because I work in the military. Later when I got over the shock, I asked him why he said such horrible, mean things and he replied calmly, "I never did." He lied, he knew he lied, and I knew he lied. I called him a liar to his face and then he had my bishop call me in to ask me if I supported the authorities. That is when I walked out of the LDS church for the last time and have never walked back in.
Bottom line, going to therapy with my daughter who was messed with by neighbor children and learning gradually that this religion has abusive side to it. Do I judge? Of course! Anyone with a brain would figure out something is "sick" and get out.
Do I dislike Mormons? No. But I do not think that they are the epitomy of "goodness" that they claim to be.
BTW, the last session I had with my therapist, I asked him if he thought the LDS religion is a cult (a conclusion that I came to on my own) and he said "yes."
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
I asked my dad why they think they can do bad things and break the ten commandments? I also said, "Do they not realize that they are putting their souls in jeopardy?" My dad's reply, "They don't think they are doing anything wrong." Good HELL!
So steal, cheat, bear false witness, treat little children in a mean way, have no boundaries, gossip, covet, belittle, shame . . . that is all OK. But, oh my gosh! Never swear!!!! Don't get angry when your child is spit upon!!! Anger is contention and of the devil.
These people are truly f**cked up!!! And you know what, I feel sorry for people entrapped in the cult -- especially the ones I know would blossom if they were free!
Now, I don't agree with everything that Sylvia Brown says but I do agree with one thing that she stated in her best-selling book: "If you are involved in a cult or an abusive relationship, shake the dirt off your feet and walk away."
And so out of my experiences and my good judgement I have left the LDS church.
p.s. I come from the highest ranking LDS stock you can imagine. I don't care how my family feels about me, I have to move on and out for the sake of my children.
|Subject:||Hey curious a couple of things w/i your OWN experience|
|Date:||Jun 26 00:00|
|Things in your own observation and your own experience are more
valuable throwing off mormon induced GUILT- after the facts are contested and established
in your mind. So it IS important to go looking, observing in your real life for a while.
Then, as the straws turn up- it will be an authentic experience, a coalescence of mind-
your research and intellectual effort with observation - your present and past mental
notes. As they combine your own straw will come up.
Several of mine include: *
*I went to the temple with the blood oathes when I got married. It was miserable macaab and did not make me happy. I avoided going back. Then they did change the ceremony- no disgusting violent gestures in white robes while standing in rows. like a bad movie.
*Brigham Young's wives in the stupid manual they replaced the RS manual with. I had toured the Beehive house, got tourist pamphlet on it, which wife ran the school, who slept upstairs, his hostess wife, all the kids went to the classroom together. Got that from the tour in high school. Now in RS it says in black in white: Brigham Young had 2 wives, one after the other died. Find it- dumb asses printed it in black and white. THAT was when I knew the corporation of modern mormonism was NOT inspired, was NOT led by god, did NOT speak for Christ- betrayed me. Filthy horrid using liars. How dare they. Well with that printed lie distributed to all adult membership they lost me, all my children, my entire posterity, any student colleague cousin brother niece or nephew neighbor I will ever meet- and with whom i do POINTEDLY share every lie in my experience and ever increasing research- on the morg. (to be sure, when the mishies came by to get us back last time my neighbors surrounded them pounded them with words, one cursed a child threatened them with water my "gentile" neighbors are so riled at how the local morg treated us when we tried to leave. That now their mishies are not well received.)
The final lie? when a dumbstruck girl home from BYU tried to explain to all the gaping sisters in RS how, after the BY manual quote, the holy ghost could only be with one worthy mormon member at a time. "come on, you just have to be logical. He is a person, it doesn't make sense that he can be with everybody at once. we learned about this at firesides. they talked about it at the Y." says this college sophomore home from school.
then I realized- watching her mom, the women who'd collectively raised her- careful not to disagree, begin to shift their spots- and one come to sit by me when I argued the point, trying to get me to agree. The RS board member running the class- read the quote aloud. end of discussion.
I interupted a stake president on the steps- paraphrased the quote- to which hereplied: of course not that's not true.
but then the rs and ph sessions using that new BY manual all had the seed disrupting their faith and definition of God and personal revelation (now ya hafta wait your turn) planted.
All we have to do is watch the next generation- read the Primary manuals for content curriculum correlation- and see the altered doctrine unfold.
WHY WHY WHY? well, could it be inconvenient to the brethren to have an empowered gospel population saying prayers and figuring out solutions through divine and personal inspiration, thought, logic, whole person focus to figure out what is right and what best to do??? instead of fall at the bishop's feet or use a binder from the morg to read a situational more desirable response. GREAT training. Increase futility- diminish hope/faith in internal inspiration
They already had god the father on another planet and Christ basically living with him there MAYBE visit a temple. They put satan in the temple film explaining how God/Christ as God cannot "fit in your heart" as a false Christian doctrine- nor be in you, near you, around you, above beneath... carefully changing semantics so one could be "christ like" never Christ in you or me. NOW the only aspect of god allowed on earth- already limited to worthy members- was to be rationed even to THEM they'd have to WAIT their TURN???
*Finally I counted the word obedience used more than 30 times by the teacher during one relief society lesson and realized this must be a cult technique cowing subduing and creating female followers of their local males, ultimately of the out of state leadership males & throught them ALONE some god who is a male with intent to have them acquire their salvation through their temple spouse (another male.) Just skin crawling recognition of behavior modification and cognitive psych techniques being used in my presence and upon me.
|Subject:||Different things for different people.......For me it was....|
|Date:||Jun 26 00:22|
the same as for you. Five years ago I was in the same boat. My wife thought I was crazy. (She left the church with me in the end). Once the avalanche of info becomes available and you see it in several reliable sources then your confidence increases for that issue. However some of the issues are just a little beyond absolute proof, they can be set aside as merely suspicious.
Suppose that you wanted to prove that there is another, hidden history of the church that most members never know about, when they read the sanitized history books written by faithful member historians. Even the so-called church history expert in every ward often knows nothing or little of this other history.
To prove that it exists you could collect many small examples of items that would appear in any true history. It depends on how hard you want to work. Are you willing to go to the U of U library and photo the receipts paid by Brigham young for his monthly beer tab? Followed up by the effort to get copies of land deeds to the brewery he helped build? Take personal time to read pioneer diaries of the tithing they paid in alcohol in St. George, Utah? Just so you can show that they never get around to mentioning these kinds of things in church lesson mannuals?
This kind of research would take too much time for an individual to do on every issue. Real historians have already done it for you. You may still want to hunt down and view some artifact or other. But eventually we can only rely on finding more than one source form more than one historian. There is no shortage of evedence, but finding which issues are the strongest takes some time and study, which is just what you are doing.
Keep reading, there is plenty of it out there and the more you read, the more it stinks and the more real documentation you find and can print off and show to reluctant spouses.
|Subject:||Hmmm- final straw for me|
|Date:||Jun 26 00:56|
|I'm not sure there was a final straw- more an accumulation of things
that didn't make sense to me and didn't seem true.
When I was a member back in the early 1980's I was taught that I had to believe in the BOM and Joseph Smith to be a mormon. Once I believed those things, and lived the life I was told to lead by the church, I was told I would go to heaven and all would be well. Trouble was- I didn't believe the BOM to be divine revelation and I thought that Joseph Smith was very likely to be a fraudster.
I really wanted to be a mormon- everyone else at testimony meeting seemed to be able to testify that the BOM was true- I turned myself in knots trying to believe in the mormon church. But the church gave me the creeps and I never got any revelation that any of it was true. Quite the contrary- I was 100 % sure that it was all lies.
Blacks getting the priesthood was a biggie for me, as it was for many people. I am not racist and I couldn't buy the whole black skin being the mark of sin. Giving blacks the priesthood in the 1970's looked like expediency rather than divine revelation.
Have you read story #125 on this site? The m-DNA evidence that shows that American Indians are not descended from Hebrew people? Very convincing. Story # 50 is good too.You could probably use those stories as a starting point for your own research. The DNA evidence would be easy enough to confirm as the scientific papers pertaining to this are bound to be available somewhere. Story #50 uses the churches own documentation to show inconsistencies.
Good luck with your research. I'm sure this must have all come as a nasty shock to you. The church tells members that the anti-mormon info out there is the work of the devil so you are being very brave to do your own investigating. Of course the "devil" think is necessary because the church knows that the evidence against it is pretty damning- you need some way of keeping the faithful in line and paying their tithing so LDS inc can keep getting richer.
|Date:||Jun 26 00:58|
|Reading the History of the Church volumes really set things in
motion for me. I was sitting in PH opening exercises when I ran across the Zelph story -
that was the capper. It just seemed so ridiculous. I could almost hear old Joe laughing to
himself when he made up the story. I had a notebook that I filled with notes while I read
them. I couldn't believe how contrived it all seemed. JS was a master plagiarist. Every
time he was exposed to any concept he absorbed it, regardless of how well it worked.
Also, I couldn't understand the whole seer stone thing. And especially how Joe's rock was of God, but Hirum Paige's rock was of the devil and had to be destroyed. Rock envy?
There was a lot more. I remember being involved in a disciplinary council and reading the report, which gave explicit (almost voyeuristic) details of some guy's encounter with his wife's best friend. That poor sap has no idea that that record is part of his permanent membership file and that there are multiple copies floating around out there.
Many of my experiences/doctrinal issues are similar to others on this board. All I know is that as strongly as I felt that it was true way back when - I feel even more strongly that it's NOT true now.
|Date:||Jun 26 20:07|
|I couldn't figure out why Mormon would whinge and whine in his final
speech after being defeated by the Lamanites, instead of going round the battle field,
giving water to the wounded (or maybe the coeur de grace since they all died), and cutting
those poor horses out of their harness.
Incidentally I feel the oxen and horses on that trek to Utah under Brigham should get recognition for their suffering. They were the ones who made the trek possible. People had a choice.
|Subject:||Re: What was the straw that broke the Camel's back for you?|
|Date:||Jun 26 01:38|
|That camel back-breaking straw for me was when a very disgruntled
employee is the Church Historian's office made multiple microfiche copies of Joseph Smith
Jr.'s handwritten _Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar_ and mailed them to libraries all over
and I went into the SLC public library and read it. I was devastated.
By the way, you need to understand that you're going to go through the classic grieving process which starts with denial, then anger, etc., finally ending up with acceptance and tranquility. The faster you can go through that process, the faster you can put this ordeal behind you and get on with your life.
|Subject:||Thanks for your replies tonight. I have a question.|
|Date:||Jun 26 01:48|
|What is a TBM? I've gathered it's probably an acronym for a mormon.
I feel devastated. My husband is prowling outside the door. He knows I'm up to no good when I'm online. I try to share with him, but it's like he doesn't even hear what I say. I don't know who to talk to. I've just got to sort things out in my mind. Thanks for listening. I will definitely be back. I feel like I'm in mostly good company here.
|Subject:||TBM - True Blue Mormon and True Believing Mormon|
|Date:||Jun 26 02:02|
|Click on "Glossary and Abbreviations" on menu at top of board for a complete list.|
|Subject:||The camels back|
|Date:||Jun 26 01:55|
|I think most people have questions and doubts based on many years
worth of incongruities that have been seen and experienced within mormondom. The final
straw may seem like the flashpoint, but is probably last in a long list of happenings that
have built up and nagged at the conscience for a long time.
I had many doubts after my mission. I saw firsthand the corporate selling strategies vs the christlike love I had envisioned a mission was. After it was even worse. Living in Provo I knew literally hundreds of RM's I was flabbergasted by the arbitrary punishments meted out for sexual transgressions. I was present at parties and other activities when many were having sex, drinking, using drugs etc.. Yet the churches eternal binding decision making was always way off from person to person. Hey I was there, believe me they were all trying to get laid the same!! Some were exed, while others nary got probation?!?
I actually never touched Anti literature as I felt is was too slanted against the church to be a reliable source. I first started to look for answers with the few remaining intellectuals left in mormonism. I read sunstone, Eugene England and anybody who could present mormon doctrine in anything other than the simplistic black and white (washed) version I had been spoon fed my whole life.
My father left mormonism some years before me, but never pushed anything on me. He gave me some good books to read on authors who presented a wholly different world paradigm and cosmology (or lack thereof).
In this frame of mind I was talking to my father about what Major I would take in school. I told him that I was unsure what to do and that maybe I would pray about it!
his next question brought me clear out forever. He said "what is God going to do"? It hit me so squarely that I actually really thought about it long and hard.
About three weeks later my old world view was forever dead and gone. About one year later I started to read about the early church history, and that really floored me.
It is like discovering that santa is unreal, then finding out Santa sexually abused your sister, stole your dad's car and beat up an old lady. OUCH!!
|Subject:||Re: What was the straw that broke the Camel's back for you?|
|Date:||Jun 26 01:58|
> > Help! I've already read about the Book of Abraham, Joseph's wives, the first vision, the endowment changes, and much much more. I just can't prove that the sites are reliable sources. How do you know these sources are reliable? I have a sick feeling that they are, but am stuck with my feelings and how to react.
Good question . . . how do you know who to trust? I was torn by this question, too. I finally decided that I could trust no one completely. The only thing that worked for me was to trust reason and solid evidence.
When reading on a subject, I paid attention to the author's documentation. Did they include fascimiles of relevant documents? Did they stick to the facts or did they use a lot of conjecture? Were they biased? Did they have an agenda (pro-mormon or anti-mormon)? Is the author a respected expert--or do they consult and expert in the applicable field? Do their conclusions follow from the evidence provided?
I was afraid to read anti-mormon literature, so for a few months I limited myself to stuff from Deseret Book. I wanted to give the church historians and FARMS people a chance to prove their points. In fact, I was still trying to prove the church true.
However, I was dismally disappointed. I looked at stuff like "Light from the Dust", a bunch of stuff by Hugh Nibley about the book of Mormon and the B of A, a book called "New Evidences for Christ in America"; "They Lie in Wait to Deceive"; and "The story of the Book of Abraham"; I also read some stuff by John Gee about the Book of Abraham and subscribed to FARMS newsletters.
What I found was dismally disappointing. The evidences for the B of A and the B of M were flimsy at best, and in most cases, they brought up new unresolvable issues that I hadn't been aware of previously. The FARMS newsletters were laughably weak and full of conjecture. Arguments against anti-mormon claims were weak, and mostly used character assasination, avoiding the real argument of what the facts were. I was appalled at the poor scholarship (except "the story of the Book of Abraham", which was well-done and actually helped me pin down responsibility for the mistranslations of the facsimiles firmly on Joseph Smith). Anyway . . . what I'm saying is that if church researchers (apologists) can't come up with something better that they did, then I knew there was a serious problem.
So the church materials were useful in giving me new topics to study, and some provided solid references for me to use to reach my own conclusions.
The final straw? A couple of years ago John Gee published a book defending the Book of Abraham (sorry, I can't remember the name of it). He teaches heiroglyphics at BYU, so he can read the stuff, I assume (although there is some coptic thrown in as well). I was desperately hoping that he would offer an LDS translation of the facsimiles and give me some hope. But he DID NOT. He limited himself to answering the anti-mormon claims leveled in the Book "By His Own hand Upon Papyrus", especially about the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammer created by Joseph Smith.
He never addressed the CONTENT of the facsimiles and if JS had given an accurate translation. He avoided it completely . . . . the ONE thing that could PROVE that JS was a prophet (no one could read egyptian at the time JS claimed to). And probably something that he was very capable of doing. At that point I realized that GEE was just doing damage control. If Joseph Smith HAD tranlated the fascmiles correctly, you can BET he would have mentioned it.
Anyway, at that point I went to some websites to see their translations, and also got the book "By His Own hand Upon Papyrus" by Larson. THEY provided translations by egyptologists, and lo and behold, they didn't match JS, but they did seem to fit with my heiroglyphic dictionary better.
Good luck. It's hard to accept that something you've believed and sacrificed for is a fraud. But in my opinion, you need to be pretty sure before you can be at peace with it (and even THEN, there are a host of other problems to deal with). Keep studying.
Also, try non-biased scientific sources on archaelogy, genetics, etc to help you figure out the truth. My husband liked the book "guns, germs, and Steel" to shed light on ancient american life (which was very different than the B of M claimed).
|Subject:||My straw was those 8 cute little submarines in Ether ,diving and gambolling..NT|
|Date:||Jun 26 19:53|
|Subject:||This dang website! n/t|
|Date:||Jun 26 02:19|
|Subject:||Re: This dang website! n/t|
|Date:||Jun 26 03:53|
|I'm with you. Also, Antishock, thank you for your story on the other board. I really, really, appreciated it.|
|Subject:||Re: What was the straw that broke the Camel's back for you?|
|Date:||Jun 26 09:07|
|How do you know these sources are reliable?
Well, first of all, some of them aren't. There are a few sites out there run by people willing to bend the truth for humor value or to "bring the Mormons back to Jesus". In my experience the exmormons' (even the Tanners, who were barely adult when they left) sites are pretty trustworthy.
Secondly, some of them aren't so much "sources" as pointers into other sources. You can find the Journal of Discourses or History of the Church (or Book of Mormon or Bible) elsewhere; you just need the "antis" to tell you which pages are the most interesting. I picked up an English translation and commentary on the Book of the Dead to see how accurate some of the things being said about the Book of Abraham facsimiles were. You can buy In Sacred Loneliness or Emma Hale Smith's biography from the church bookstore (although you can save a couple bucks getting them elsewhere) and read a lot of true history that has to be read with the rose-colored glasses on to be faith promoting.
And finally, look at the apologetics! You don't see Nibley crowing that the antis just made this Book of Abraham stuff up, do you? He (and all the other apologists) have to make up a bunch of logically inconsistent or grossly improbable excuses, or throw up enough distraction and testimony to try and change the subject.
I don't think there was a last straw for me (I'm an investigator, not born in the church, so perhaps it took less work to keep me out). Some of the biggies were:
There are hieroglyphics in Facsimile 3 that are translated outright incorrectly. All the mass of evidence linking the Book of Breathings papyri with the Book of the Dead is good too, but not as simple the fact that we have Egyptian hieroglyphics, copied by Joseph Smith himself, with an accompanying translation that's completely false.
The King James Version errors in Isaiah are pretty clear. They prove beyond a doubt that there are parts of the Book of Mormon which Smith did not translate from ancient records, but which he altered himself to make the ancient records claim seem more plausible. Once you accept that (and perhaps a few more of his plagiarisms like the Sermon on the Mount and the Lord's Prayer doxology), it's not a big stretch to realize the whole book was a forgery too.
The false prophecies are another good one, although I wish they were all in the Doctrine and Covenants. Not that the dozens of "God's little fibs" there aren't a good start, but I think the stuff in the History of the Church about Congress being "utterly overthrown and wasted" is even better.
|Subject:||Curious, Go to your local Library . I found several good books there and it didn't cost me a dime ! (NT)|
|Date:||Jun 26 09:54|
|Subject:||It was more of a brick that broke the camels back.|
|Date:||Jun 26 12:53|
|I have posted this here before, but I'm starting to realize that
there is a lot of repetitiveness on the board, one of the many things I enjoy about it. So
here it is anyway.
About 8 years ago I received my patriarchal blessing at the late age of 29. The blessing talked about my testimony and how hard it would come, but that it would someday. This gave me the courage to really start researching the church and thus religion and history became my hobby for the next 8 years. I considered myself somewhat of an intellectual, and so did my in-laws (which of course gave them great concern for me). Through my study I found many inconsistencies and many problems, which I brought up in an effort to get other peoples opinion and not really to point out fallacies or to say the Church was not true. Peoples defensiveness and refusal to even admit the problems should have been a red flag to me right there. But I trudged on, and while not fully accepting the apologetics, I didnt fully discount them or the possibility that there was another explanation. For instance, was it possible that the Book of Abraham was translated from other parchment that we dont have today? Yes, with God, it is plausible. Is it possible that the Book of Mormon lands were smaller than they were previously thought to be, thus explaining the problems with DNA, horses, etc.? Yes it is plausible. These and many other contradictions I chalked up to being plausible.
Then I came across polygamy as written in "In Sacred Lonliness" by Todd Compton. I always knew the church practiced polygamy for practical reasons like taking care of the widow, not enough men to go around etc; but the marrying of other mens wives? Is it possible that God came down to Joseph and told him to marry other mens wives and break up their families? NO, absolutely not. For once in my life I was sure of something. The ruin that those unions brought was just too much for me to accept. There was no way a just, kind, loving God would do such a thing. Is it plausible that God is not just, kind, and loving? Yes, but if he/she is, Im not going to worship him/her.
From there all the other apologies fell apart and suddenly all the contradictions made sense. They were all man-made.
So my confession is that I am not an intellectual. I did not leave the church for intellectual reasons, nor for sins I had or wanted to commit. I left for moral reasons; Joseph Smiths morals and the morals of all the Mormons who accept his actions because they believe him to be a prophet and can do no great evil. Call it prejudice in reverse.
As an aside, all the Mormons that I have brought up the account of early church members marrying other mens wives were at first disgusted at the thought. When they found out I was talking about Joseph Smith, they then disputed the facts. When and if they accepted the facts, they then said that there must be some reason that we dont know about, but none of them investigated it for themselves. I am disgusted at them for their unending justification of horrid actions; and at myself for once being like them.
|Subject:||For me it was very simple-the realization from church history that JSMith told a WHOPPER|
|Date:||Jun 26 13:08|
|When I read the more detailed account, in the BH Roberts
Comprehensive of the LDS Church - I started to LAUGH!
OMG - that BRAT! He lied his ass off! The whole thing was a huge colossal lie, hoax, scam, con job! Well, Joe, you really pulled a fast one! Oh, and thanks to mamma and daddy and brother Hyrum, etc, you all had a little conspiracy going, now didn't you?
Oh, and all your friends, the so-called "witnesses" that had that metaphysical experience. How clever of you! So, just how fast were you RUNNING through the woods with those HEAVY golden plates-wonder boy! HA!
I love the story of the "band of psychics" who were after him too!! This is some of the greatest fabricated nonsense I have ever read!
Oh what a relief to find out there never were any golden plates found in a hill, the Book of Mormon is total fiction about imaginary people who only existed in Joe's mind, (well, he may have had some help) and plagiarized Bible and many other works. HA!
FAITH the members say!! Well, give me some FACTS to place my FAITH IN and stop the damn lying!! Geezz, this is simple "boys and girls."
And, I laugh ever time I picture Joe telling his imaginary tale and people believing it and adding their own visions of angels. He even got his friends to say they "saw" his imaginary golden plates. What a fantastic trick! One of my favorites is the one where Martin Harris (that nut case) seeing Jesus lounging in the rafters of a house! What were these people drinking, smoking or eating? Whatever it was, they were having a very good time topping each other's stories!
And, my favorite historical character of this time period is Mrs. Martin Harris who ditched the 116 pages! They tore houses apart looking for them too! OOPS JOE! You made a little boo-boo there! Damn I love that woman! HA!
Mormonism has to have the funniest history of any religion.
And to top it off, it is an American hoax! What a heritage! HA!
|Subject:||Blacks amongst other things NT|
|Date:||Jun 26 12:57|
|Subject:||Re: What was the straw that broke the Camel's back for you?|
|Date:||Jun 26 13:15|
|Definitively this site was the nail in my investigation.
I had many serious doubts about church doctrine and history only by reading the scriptures and church books, notably anything written by B.H. Roberts and his History of the Church as well as his Comprehensive history of the church.
My doubts really started in the temple. When I found out that my wife had been anointed by the priesthood, I questioned" "Who's the guy that anointed her while she was naked under that shield?" Then they told me that the women had the priesthood to do it!!!
Well, if women can have the priesthood in the temple, why can't they have it all of the time? Either they have it or they don't! Right? Then began my quest!
You are going through the same feelings that I had and it is painful and humiliating but you'll get over it. Just stick close to us.
|Subject:||Ultimately, I just had to trust my own experiences and observations.|
|Date:||Jun 26 14:07|
|I was born and raised in the church, and know a lot about its
"official" and "underground" histories. There is much evidence for the
historical accounts that cast a bad light on the church, and I enjoy reading and thinking
about that stuff.
I am also something of a skeptic, and old stories of gold plates, miracles, floods, and towers would require some substantial proof for me to believe.
But the things that have had the most impact -specifically- in my debunking of Mormonism have been things I have seen with my own eyes.
I watched my parents and other friends and family members take blood oaths by simulating the slashing of their bodies; and I did it too. Then, a few years later, I saw how those and other parts of the temple ceremony were removed and/or changed.
I saw the changing of the policies of Blacks and the priesthood and have seen the scramble by the apologetics to unsuccessfully explain it.
I've seen the man they call "Prophet, Seer, and Revelator" deny controversial doctrines of the church that are clearly spelled out in the official canon - multiple times, in nationally televised interviews!
And the list could go on.
The DNA and archeological findings in the Americas are compelling, but ultimatly, I'm not an expert in those fields. It is evident, however, that the non-biased experts consistently agree on scenarios that disagree with the Mormon explanations.
|Date:||Jun 26 13:48|
|I had a hard time believing the BOM was not divine in it its origin.
I could read it and know Joseph Smith wasn't smart enough to make up all this stuff. With
his education and background the Book of Mormon could not be written without inspiration.
Once I found out about a couple documents that JS suposedly used to give him the ideas, coupled with his reputation for spinning great yarns, it all came together on how he did it. I think he had much help from his friends (especially Parly P) making it all work. This, along with his history of being a treasure hunter all adds up to make complete sense on how he pulled it off.
It took awhile to figure it out in my mind, but when you add all the other information with the B of M, 2 plus 2 finally equals 4. Even though I know how JS made it all up, I am amazed he was able to pull it off. I would think he would be amazed today to see the intelligent people he duped.
|Subject:||Re: What was the straw that broke the Camel's back for you?|
|Date:||Jun 26 14:03|
|The thing that first made me start questioning was D&C I had
read the BoM and really enjoyed it, but then I started reading the D&C and just kept
getting a creepy feeling. Joe Smith seemed so arrogant and well almost evil, anytime
anyone questions him it's alwasy how dare you question the prophet of the Lord I am the
only truth yadda yadda BS! Joe Smith did not seem like a prophet but more of a con artist
to me. This troubled me I wanted so badly to believe. I read the First Vision over and
over trying to get a good feeling but it never came. That's when I started my research,
research of other ways of thinking other philosephies of life and the history of the
The final straw on the camel's back was when I decided I needed to read the BoM again and this time objectivly not trying to prove it's truth like I had done before and not trying to disprove it either. I didn't even get past 1st Nephi when I felt well.....When Nephi Kills laman I was like what why is the spirit of the lord telling nephi to kill?! He's drunk nephi could knock him out take the clothes and run, why kill him? Why would this all powerfull caring God use death as a tool? It just didn't add up. So I prayed and prayed and decided the church wasn't true. And at that moment when I finnaly admited it I FELT SO FREE AND HAPPY AND I GRINED OH I GRINED the guilt the horrid guilt of just being human was gone so much made sense. I looked back once and decided I could never go back to that well way of thinking Brainwashing is really what it is. I BROKE FREE OF THE BRAINWASHING!
|Subject:||I watched a friend go through the Church's disciplinary system. n/t|
|Date:||Jun 26 15:33|
|Subject:||The thing that tipped the scales for me.|
|Date:||Jun 26 16:30|
|If there is such a thing as an inner voice, mine asked the $64,000 question. "Is this working for you?" No, no it wasn't. Mormonism was making me hate myself for no good reason. It was making me afraid of life. It was sapping what little ambition I had. And the gentiles around me seemed as happy as the happiest Mormons -- much happier than me.|
|Subject:||The actions of others...|
|Date:||Jun 26 17:33|
|The straw that broke the camels back for me was the actions of
others brought on by this cult.
I was raised most of my life in Ogden, Utah. Washington Terrace to be exact, until I was 19.
Even at a young age I was struck with how much hypocrisy there was in the community. I really wanted to believe in "the church", but it was difficult because if it were the "one right and true", then why did so many people put up appearances, and be so arrogant?
My mom and dad claimed to believe in the cult but were so disfunctional, why, if they had the "truth", did they act that way, and still do? Families are forever is just lip service!
I did not fit the image, which in turn, did not make me popular and has always made me feel like an outsider.
Thinking back, one of the vivid things I remember about seminary was the eraser fights, and me trying to duck flying chalk. I did, at one time, want to get into seminary but quickly realized that it was just a hollow experience. Remember Tom trails? What a joke! I have just recently torn up my "diploma".
A lot of intellectual information has been covered in this post, which I have read with great interest on this website and others, but the thing that started to break my camel's back was the people, by their example, with their self righteous pompous attitude, feeling they knew all the answers, and judging others who didn't belong to the club.
The whole fraud of the morg is icing on the cake for me!
|Subject:||For me it was different then all the others|
|Date:||Jun 26 19:02|
|I was born in the church and naturaly belived it when I was younger.
I had some doubts but it was ingraned into my psyche that life was like a test and we must
be sin free or properly repent of our sins to pass and achive the CK.
In my mid-teens I went inactive because I was at a point where I said the hell with it I want to be like my non-mormon friends and enjoy my youth.
So anyways in college I started studing eastern religion and got really into the ideas of self realization and enlightment. I would work on methouds of how to trancend my mind / thoughts / desires / fears / ego.
Well one day I was sucessfully able to do just that and I caught a breif glimpse the "infinate". I'll just say I had a profound mystical experience. Such experencies are more common than one would think. And there are many books that document them. Like William James' "The Varities of Religious Experince." Mine was quite simmilar to some outlined in that book.
So basically I was sure Mormonism had nothing to do with God, and I was comfortable in my own personal spirituallity. Latter I found this site when it was still in it's infancy (it only had 20-30 stories back then). And I was quite supprised at all the evidence out there to debunk Mormonism.
I like to visit this site because all my family and entire family history / relatives on both sides are TBM with one or 2 jack Mormons sprinkled in. Often when I visit these people I just can't relate and it helps me to read stories of others in very simmilar situations.
Good luck and above all belive in your self
|Subject:||Being happier out than in. n/t|
|Date:||Jun 26 20:18|
|Author:||being saner out than in, too.|
|Subject:||Re: Authenticity Issue|
|Date:||Jun 26 20:24|
You are right to question the authenticity of materials you read on the Internet and elsewhere. My perspective may help ease your concern.
In the 1980's, I was a researcher for a BYU religion professor. I had nearly unlimited access to primary sources, such as newspapers, journals, correspondence, and books from the Joseph Smith era. These documents (particularly the originals) were on "restricted access" in the archives of the BYU library -- they were not available to the public.
My assignments pertained to Joseph Smith, in particular. I spent many hours reading original journals of the early saints. Mos of these people were "friendly" to Joseph and What became the Utah church.
Reading these materials caused me to question the church's claims and I began to look elsewhere for information to validate the church's claims. That's when I discovered the BOA problem, the Masonry connetion, problems with the BOM, and worst of all -- Joseph's secret practice of polygamy.
All of my information came from primary, Mormon-friendly sources within the BYU library. I did not pay attention to "anti" literature at all. I can tell you that the "problems" you have become aware of are real and supported by tangible, authentic evidence in the church's possession.
Always skeptical, I am
|Subject:||Wow! What a tremendous outpouring of support! Thank YOU!|
|Date:||Jun 26 22:26|
|I just finished reading your responses. They were so thoughtful and
I even laughed a few times, which has been hard to do lately. I'm trying to figure out
what to do next with the information I have. I'm surrounded by Mormons so don't really
know who to tell. I want to tell the bishop, but I'm afraid of making a spectacle of
myself. I don't want to drag my family into this that way. My husband turns away and sighs
when I bring any of this up. It's not like him. He usually listens to anything I have to
With regards to the reliability of my sources question, I'm realizing more and more that the info I received all my life was from the perspective of faithful latterday saints. I don't believe everything I read on the internet, but I need to apply the same standard to latterday saint sources. It's so hard, when I've learned my entire life that being skeptical is sinful and having perfect faith is a virtue. I don't want to let go of so many things! I feel like I'm losing my eternal family. I'm very confused and am spending way too much time online. I need a break! I hope you don't mind if I pop in from time to time to vent. Thank you all.
|Subject:||Re: Wow! What a tremendous outpouring of support! Thank YOU!|
|Date:||Jun 26 22:52|
> I'm surrounded by Mormons so don't really know who to tell. I want to tell the bishop, but I'm afraid of making a spectacle of myself. I don't want to drag my family into this that way. My husband turns away and sighs when I bring any of this up. It's not like him. He usually listens to anything I have to say.
Your husband is the only one who needs to know right now, and even with him, go easy. It'll take weeks before you can safely let him know every detail of how you feel. Let him ask you. Eventually he'll want to know what you are reading so avidly! Do yourself a favor and don't tell the bishop. He can't answer any of your questions and he can make your life difficult by outing you too soon.
> It's so hard, when I've learned my entire life that being skeptical is sinful and having perfect faith is a virtue.
Well put. That was such a change for me too!
> I feel like I'm losing my eternal family.
I know what you mean there too. That's why you need to go easy and be introspective. Leaving mormonism rocks people, and some do lose their families over it, but it doesn't have to be that way. Take a deep breath and don't be in a hurry to have everything figured out. Don't say too much, don't start sending letters to everyone you know, just take it slow. Good luck!
|Subject:||Take it gently with your husband|
|Date:||Jun 27 00:25|
|If you need a break, take a break. The LDS Church may be based on a
fraud, but that doesn't mean they're going to poison your family if you don't get out next
week. You've been hit with a mindblowing experience, and deserve to take time to think
about it. You may want to take this whole thing slowly, for starters. I've seen Mormons
who have epiphanies of "I've been HAD!?!" and want to immediately decry their
deceivers to the world... but that is just counterproductive.
In particular, if your husband isn't receptive to the problems you're having, and you want to hang on to the marriage, you may need to give him a whole lot of time to figure things out for himself. This "families forever" thing has an unfortunate tendency to get dropped like a rock when part of the family no longer believes. Apostate men seem more likely than women to be hit with a "come back to the church or I'll leave you" ultimatum (since the sexist theology is clearer about the negative consequences of an apostate husband than about an apostate wife?), but it can happen to anyone. If your husband gets the idea that you are "attacking" the LDS church, that's an excuse for him to shut your concerns out.
Judging by the stories I've heard from others, there's a good chance that your husband will come to the same realizations you do, but it will take him months or years to do so. Belief in the LDS church is an emotional experience, and you're not going to be able to shove it out with a train of logic and fact. Just make sure he knows you still love him, that he knows about the problems you've found... and that's about the best you can do.
If you haven't already, you might want to take a look at alt.religion.mormon archives and apologists' websites to see the apologetic responses to the information you've found. Some of the antimormon things you've read are probably wrong, and you'll want to find that out (not just for the axiomatic value of truth, but so you don't embarrass yourself to faithful family and friends by repeating them). Some of the antimormon things you've read have "standard" apologetic rationalizations, and you'll want to decide which of those rationalizations you can accept and which have too many holes or implausibilities for you. I've never known anybody to gain a testimony of the official LDS beliefs after learning about the problems, but there are a number of people who find apologetic rationalization sufficient to hold on to a testimony they already gained in ignorance. Leaving the LDS church when entrenched in a believing family is a serious step, and you owe it to yourself not to burn any bridges if that step isn't one you know you have to take.
|Subject:||It took me 8 years to leave church after Husband left.|
|Date:||Jun 27 02:06|
|He gave me little bits and peices of truth/reason to chew on till I
got my head on strait. I thought I was the long-suffering, TBM, enduring my husband's
confused mind but in the end it was Husband that was the patient one ! LOL ! What a brain
Im so lucky I have him !
|Subject:||Simple - More guilt than joy|
|Date:||Jun 26 22:35|
|Plus there were to many things that in my gut I didn't think were right. And if God thought that those things were right, and that is what it takes to go to heaven, well I don't want to be there for eternity.|
|Subject:||Dawn you just hit the nail on the head!|
|Date:||Jun 27 00:04|
|More guilt than joy, WAY MORE!!!!!!
God how profound.
|Subject:||Re: What was the straw that broke the Camel's back for you?|
|Date:||Jun 26 23:12|
|Please understand that many who have "woken up" one day
and found out that they have been living a lie feel the same way you do now. Please
understand that there are many, many people out here who have been where you are now, and
there are many, many of us who understand how you feel.
From what I have learned over the years, there are two parts to the problem: 1) our relationship with the Church, and 2) our relationship with the Mormon culture. Even if/when you decide to leave one, you still have the other one surrounding you.
As for the truthfullness and reliability of the web sites that you have visited, please understand that the truth is out there, if you want it. Rather than piling on with my own opinions, may I recommend that you continue to search the internet for more anwswers? When you read the same facts over and over again from varied and different sources, you, too, will come to your own conclusion(s) about what is true and what is not. It took me several years to go through a thought process of,"Why in the world would people believe that? What's even more curious, why in the world would the Church want people to believe that?"
Be patient with yourself; it is a process, and it will take time. Again, please know that you are not alone.
|Subject:||Re: How do you know these sources are reliable|
|Date:||Jun 27 01:03|
|The stuff that I relied on to find the truth about the church was only stuff that came from church sources, and I looked every one of them up that I could. Much of it came from the journal of discourses and history of the church. There was enough there to convince me that the church was not what it claimed it was and really opened my eyes about the true nature of brigham young. I spent hundreds of hours over several months doing this. Once you get past that point, other things fall into place.|
|Subject:||The final thing for me was:|
|Date:||Jun 27 03:06|
|I was brought face to face with the reality that in Mormon society,
the religious heirarchy even controls who is allowed to form romantic relationships with
Growing up in a Mormon polygamist family left me with innumerable reasons to leave, but my outrage did not reach a level that would motivate me away from this lifestyle until I found myself in a forbidden relationship. This brought all of the buried hostility to the surface and my rebellion has been open ever since.
|Subject:||When You Decided to Leave|
|Date:||Feb 22 09:16|
|What was the straw that broke the camel's back? What was the main thing you read that cemented in your mind that the church was a hoax? Or was it an accumulation of things?|
|Subject:||It was an accumulation but this (link) put me over the top.|
|Date:||Feb 22 09:54|
It made me realize that Old Joe just borrowed everything to invent his religion, even down to the golden plates story...pretty revealing.
|Subject:||Re: When You Decided to Leave|
|Date:||Feb 22 09:55|
|It was a long accumulation of things but the final straw was after we moved to Utah. I had been a "cafeteria" mormon, kept the things I liked, ignored that I disagreed with. Here it wasn't that easy and when they called my daughter a 'slut' because she was divorced and NOT actively looking for a new man that did it. How could she be a slut and not be dating was beyond me! I never went to that meeting house again. We overheard two prominent (in the ward)people talking about her social status at church one Sunday and that was the term they were using.|
|Subject:||In my case...|
|Date:||Feb 22 10:06|
|...it wasn't really about whether the church was bogus. I left
because I was terribly unhappy and depressed. I couldn't take it anymore.
Sure, there were things that made me suspect the church wasn't what I had believed, but if I had been happy, I probably could have found a way deal with them.
The first crack in my faith happened when I was 16 and we moved from "the mission field" to SLC. The church looks a lot better from a distance, but up close and personal I began to see it for what it was, and it wasn't as pretty as I expected.
More cracks developed during my mission years. When you're a youth in the church you're not really part of the big show. Going to the temple and onward to a mission changes that. You get to see a little bit behind the curtain, and what I saw was disappointing at best. The temple experience didn't live up to the hype, my leaders were either fools or bullies, and there were many elders who had lied their way onto missions, proving there was really no magical power of discernment, no inspiration.
I realized one day I was trying to convince happy people that they really weren't and that what they needed was the belief system that was making me miserable.
When I returned home and went back to school, I learned from other RMs that my experience hadn't been unique. I think that's when I first started considering that maybe my unhappiness wasn't from not being a good enough Mormon (and by all standards, I was a really good Mormon). Maybe the problem was the church, not me.
And I realized that having been raised in the church, I'd never had a choice. At least converts knew something besides Mormonism, at least they got to choose. If I hadn't been born a Mormon would I have chosen it? I needed perspective. I needed to step away from the church.
So when I finished school I moved to CA and started a new life. Once outside the gravitational pull of Mormon culture, my mental health improved enormously and I could see how sick and sick-making the church was.
It wasn't until years later that I started looking into the history and doctrines.
|Subject:||Amen Stray Mutt|
|Date:||Feb 22 10:28|
|Author:||Søvnløsener - Insomniac|
|I realized one day I was trying to convince happy people that
they really weren't and that what they needed was the belief system that was making me
Reading your story and posts is like you had lived my life/I am living yours.
As a missionary, I truely believed that the depression was the devil trying to stop the work of the lord and if I was more obedient and worked harder the dark feelings of hopelessness and dread of facing the day would end.
Fast forward ten years and my wife forces me to see a doctor about this. I aways thought any thoughts of depression orginated from not doing as I was told/not keeping my temple covenants.
Some medication and some therapy snapped me out of it.
Chucking the garments into the garbage, along with all the mental mind fucking that goes with them helped to balance my life.
Once outside the gravitational pull of Mormon culture, my mental health improved enormously and I could see how sick and sick-making the church was.
You old timies have hear me return and report this before.
Jan 20, 2002 FoxHollow Idaho ward's SM was all about service.
Service out of love? Service because that is what jesus did? Service to give back?
NO, NO, NO!
Service because that is what the current President of The Church tells us to do. (and not community service, the HCer's talk was service to the church as in saying yes to your callings)
Service because that is what those of you who have been to the temple promised to do, without questioning. By taking your temple covenant you have already said yes to all calls extended by the lord's anointed.
Service because that is how we earn our way back to god's glory.
The ONLY mention of JC was the close of prayers and talks.
That sealed the deal for me. I finally opened by eyes to what the mormon church was/is.
|Subject:||Re: In my case...|
|Date:||Feb 22 12:19|
|Stray Mutt wrote:
...it wasn't really about whether the church was bogus. I left because I was terribly unhappy and depressed. I couldn't take it anymore.
That's pretty much what happened with me, except I was sick of feeling like a victim of the Mormon "God's" cruel jokes. As I've said before, I didn't realize what a cult it really was until a few months after I had left.
|Subject:||B.H. Roberts' "Studies of the BOM"|
|Date:||Feb 22 12:30|
|I had read Brodie & Quinn and came to the "Sunstone Mormon" conclusion that the early church leaders were flawed mortal beings and that some of what they taught was crap but the rest was still good. There was an accummulation of evidence against my beliefs in a "True" church but I kept pushing all of the "bad" church history up on a shelf and tried to focus on the good. Finding out just how fictional the BOM really was and that Roberts found this out 80 years ago was the final straw. My compartmentalized shelf crashed to the ground and I've been free from that mental bondage ever since. The BOM wasn't my most significant complaint with mormonism but it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.|
|Subject:||Re: When You Decided to Leave|
|Date:||Feb 22 12:33|
|For me it was years of service in either the primary or the nursery.
I rarely was able to attend the adult meetings. And I needed the adult company
Finally, I accepted the calling to serve in the nursery with great misgivings. I had just moved to Dallas and was in a new ward. After about a month, I told the bishop that I couldn't do it anymore, that I needed to be in the adult classes. My nerves were frayed from being a stay at home mom with little adult contact. The bishop told me he would work on finding a replacement for me. Flash forward a few weeks. Still no replacement. I told the bishop once again... Nothing was done.
So, finally one Sunday, I just didn't show up at church. And I didn't call anyone to substitute for me, either.
And I never went back to church since then. That was probably 10 years ago. I felt that the bishop and the church did not care what my spiritual needs were and they certainly didn't care about me as a person. This was the straw that broke the camel's back...
|Subject:||Wow, Mariah, we had a similar experience . . .|
|Date:||Feb 22 14:56|
|I had also moved to a new ward, had a new baby (nursing, too), and
was called to the nursery. The baby was just a couple months old. I had also just
experienced a tragic death in the family that had kind of shaken my ideas about God's
protection and his having a plan for each person. Also, I had recent had some personally
frustrating experiences with unanswered prayers.
Anyway, I accepted the call, in spite of misgivings about whether I could REALLY even do it (needing to take care of the baby, having a baby in a small room with a bunch of snotty nosed kids in the winter . . . yeah that's a GREAT idea). I trusted that God would protect my baby. And she was okay.
But I wasn't. I didn't get to attend ANY of my meetings. Struggling through sacrament meeting with 2 kids plus a baby is NOT a spiritual experience. And then my next two meetings were in nursery, except on weeks when I traded off with my husband. Then, half the time was in the hall or the mothers' lounge anyway with the baby. I was isolated and spiritually starving.
Anyway, that wasn't the FINAL straw, but it certainly got me thinking "why am I going to church, ANYWAY?" I needed something uplifting at least once a week, NOT just more struggle.
Anyway, I can relate.
After a lot of studying, the final straw was when I realized Joseph Smith's translation of the book of Abraham facsimiles was nothing but hogwash, and he took full responsibility for their accuracy before they were printed.
But there were LOTS of little straws.
|Subject:||Reading the temple ritual beforehand. . .|
|Date:||Feb 22 15:24|
|. . .(in Jerald and Sandra Tanner's book, as this was before the
days of Internet, 1978-79) pretty much did it for me.
It went against everything I had been taught was true and right, and smacked of belonging to a cult.
I did not believe a loving and merciful God had anything to do with bloody oaths.
That was it. Everything I learned after that just confirmed and validated my decision.
|Subject:||my husband was twice a bishop, twice served on...|
|Date:||Feb 22 15:29|
|...high councils. my leaving the church took a long, long time. finally, after i had pretended for about five of those years, i was sitting in sacrament meeting listening to a holier-than-thou jerk spew forth. in my mind i said "that's it". and never went back. i spent weekends at our place in the mountains and when people in safeway would say "where have you been?" or "we've Missed you", i said i'd been out of town. soon after, we moved (the chicken way out) and people heard that we'd left. a few telephoned us. i have always said "i prefer not to discuss it". if they respected me, they respected my feelings, and left it at there.|
|Subject:||I was reading some church history on line & realized I had some books with the original stories|
|Date:||Feb 22 15:30|
|I got one out and realized for the first time that Joe Smith Jr.
told a whopper! I started to laugh! OMG that little bugger! And he got people to believe
this hoax! It hit me like an epiphany!
YES YES YES I shouted! I was right all along. I knew something was OFF big time! Just did not know what it was.
He lied. That means all the rest of it is a lie. The whole package. A total lie from the get go. That is hilarious. I could not stop laughing!
Even a 10 yr old child would not believe that nonsense about golden plates, angels, swords, running through the woods, hiding them, etc.
It was a total fabrication, hoax, fraud from the first word out of Joe's mouth and he knew exactly what he was doing from the beginning!That naughty boy! Shame on him! And his whole family was in it with him! ROFLMAO
That was the point when I realized that millions of people were still believing this kids whopper and it still strikes me funny.
And the only way the Mormons can get people to believe it is to tell them they have to have faith and pray about it!
Oh brother! what a crock! And I thought they were telling the truth!
No wonder it never set right with me. Something in me knew that there was something very wrong with that picture.
Now I could trust myself. I was right all along. It was too fantastic to believe! Of course it is not true. It is a total lie!
And grown men, the GA's and leaders in particular, demand 10% of your income for life, funny, 24/7 regulation skivvies that you can only buy from their stores to be "worthy" to believe this huge damn lie! OMG that is so funny, it still cracks me up everytime I think about it.
The epiphany was about four years ago and about one year ago, I finally officially resigned.
And what was absolutely perfect, was the date of the letter from SLC: JUNE 27th! The date Joe was killed in the gun battle.
How sweet, how choice, how amazing!
Martyr my arse!! He was armed, had been drinking wine, did not have his magic undies on, and got killed in the shoot out at the OK coral shouting a Masonic oath as he jumped out a window.
Guess he got what he asked for.
He knew the consequences of using those Masonic oaths. Shame, shame on him for using the Masonic rituals in his own temple nonsense!
If it wasn't for Brigham Young (probably the most evil man to walk the American landscape) Mormonism would have died out. Today's Mormonism is a direct result of his isolationists dictatorship! Shame on Brigham too! Well, he got what he asked for too, apparently he was poisoned by, most likely JD Lee's sons!
|Subject:||Re: When You Decided to Leave|
|Date:||Feb 22 18:23|
|I have told this story before but it is nice to be able to share it
I was a convert. I realize now that I joined the church out of emotional needs. I saw some people who were truly good examples and thought that was what the church was all about. After I got married my husband investigated the church after being exposed to the folks who provided that good example for me. He decided to join. Although we did not investigate as thoroughly as I would now, we felt the mormon way was a pretty good way to live, right or wrong. I felt some spirituality (never realizing it was what was inside of me not what was inside the church) and we were active members for 10 years, 9 of those wearing garments.
Last August we had my husband parents come out to Utah to visit. They had no previous mormon exposure and we showcased it pretty well for them. They were impressed but not interested. I was at the peak of my "testimony." A month later, I was reading internet news about discoveries of meso-american civil wars. I thought it might relate to the BoM but it didn't. I decided to do a little research on the internet about what discoveries had been made. Oh, boy...I had opened a Pandora's box! It only took three or four weeks before I was at an exmo support group gathering. My husband followed me and admitted he never really felt anything from the church.
Although the structure was helpful for us, the mormon church never gave us anything we couldn't get with any other type of religious organization or spiritual group. I left because any good I got from the church was canceled out by my discovery of its rotten core. Some are satisfied with the sham and some either will never find out or refuse to see the truth. I can not stay with an organization that expects so much from its members but can't measure up to its own standards.
|Subject:||For me the straw was...|
|Date:||Feb 23 00:08|
|There were lots of things I was struggling with doctrine wise. The final straw was the treatment of my son who has a disability.|
|Subject:||Joseph Smith and 14 yr. old Helen Mar Kimball|
|Date:||Feb 23 01:44|
|When I learned of Joseph Smith marrying Helen Mar Kimball at the age of 14, and promising her and her father's family exaltation in exchange for her hand in marriage, I knew then and there that Joseph Smith was a fraud. I am utterly amazed at how TBM's rationalize and justify polygamy today. This, for me, was the catalyst that moved me away from the church.|
|Subject:||When I absolutely, positively, knew I wasn't going back|
|Date:||Feb 23 00:48|
|I had been separated from my wife for about four months (on the way
to divorce) when my boy turned twelve. I toyed with the idea of ordaining him a deacon,
but was more curious about what would come down. I received a call from my former bishop
saying that I wouldn't be allowed to ordain my son unless I apologized to my
soon-to-be-ex. I told him that would be no problem, that I would be happy to apologize to
her for not divorcing her after eight months of marriage (when she told me she made a
mistake getting married) and for stringing the marriage out for 18 loveless years and four
kids. There was a long pause on the phone before he told me that the apology he was
looking for was for me leaving my ex and not seeking counseling to put our marriage back
together. I told him that apology would never be coming.
A year later, this same bishop asked if I was going to baptize my next son. I told him that since the God I believed in was the same yesterday, today, and forever, and that I still hadn't apologized to my ex, I guess I wouldn't be doing the baptism either. I was too far gone out og the Morg to care anyway.
|Subject:||I climbed out on a ladder. The steps were.....|
|Date:||Feb 23 02:20|
|1. (Hypocrisy) As a young lad watching ultra TBM farmers beat, swear
at and pitchfork their animals mercilessly, then tearfully bear their testimonies in
church on Sunday.
2. (Blacks and the Priesthood) Never could swallow that one. Later, in the military, flew with black pilots who would have given their lives for me and me for them. Yet, when I'd go to church....I was supposed to believe that they were a cursed bunch of guys who were not as good as me.
3. (The old temple ceremony) "Cut and gut" rituals just didn't do it for me.
4. (GA's "shooting from the hip") while I, as a young missionary in Germany was supposed to suck it all in. How Alvin Dyer suckered in David O. I'll never know.
5. (Reading, reading reading) Tanners' "Mormonism, Shadow or Reality", "No Man Knows My History" and B.H. Roberts' "Studies of the BOM" for starters.
6. (The Book of Abraham fiasco) "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" did the trick on that one, which confirmed what Fawn Brody said all along.
7.(A bishop and SP who told me to "Sit down and shut up" because "the Church" wasn't going to change.) When my bishop heard my comments opposing the official views of "the Church", he asked me if I was into Pornography. I just about fell off my chair.He later apologized to me for that crass remark, and I have forgiven him. I guess he was so taken back that a total TBM such as me would suddenly reverse course that he could just not think of any other reason as to why the sudden change. In actuality, it wasn't all that sudden, but had been brewing and stewing inside of me for years.
Well, that's basically the ladder that helped me out of the dark abyss and into the light of day. Oh, how good truth feels....it truly makes one free.It was, however, an incredibly painful journey...but, for me, worth every tear and anger tantrum.
And one "free" best wish to all of you on this board!!
|Subject:||Re: I climbed out on a ladder. The steps were.....|
|Date:||Feb 23 02:30|
|Bob, I am so glad to see that someone else has noticed how badly mormons treat animals. It is a crying shame how they do them. I have known some to go without feed because that would be "work on Sunday". I have seen hay down in the field and rained on because even though they knew it was supposed to rain on Monday they didn't dare bale on Sunday.|
|Subject:||It was an accumulation of things|
|Date:||Feb 23 02:48|
|What finally led me to finally leave was after a year of being ignored, and about 10 months of an emotionally abusive marriage with someone who when I said I would be filing for divorce had the audacity to say that as a woman, I had no right to do it. That was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I filed and stopped going to church at the same time, and my mental health has greatly improved. Part of the reason I was so depressed to the point of being suicidal was the oppression caused by the Morg towards women. Since leaving, my depression went away with the help of medication and therapy. I can say that I'm much happier now, and can enjoy life, and NOT endure it like the Morg wants us to.|
|Subject:||At a reunion with TBM family|
|Date:||Feb 23 04:49|
|while 7 1/2 months pregnant with my first child:
We were having a talent-show. A LOT of the little kids played piano or sang songs, one or two displayed their art projects, one niece played the violin, my husband and I played a guitar duet, etc. Each family and their children had a segment in the show. Well my brother P's family had their segment close to the last. Each child, one-by-one played piano numbers. Then, the youngest child, a 3-yr-old girl was plucked up by her daddy and placed upon his lap. I remember that I rubbed my big 'ol belly, looking forward to the day when I could hold my own child. What happened next chilled my blood.....with some "coaching" from my brother, that little 3-yr-old child recited either all or nearly all of the 13 articles of faith. A 3-YEAR-OLD!!!!! I thought of how many hours they must have been at it, drilling her over and over, programming this sweet little girl to repeat things she didn't understand. I looked around at everyone, smiling and awwwing, I looked at my brother and his wife beaming with pride at THEIR accomplishment. Their expressions practically screamed "See how righteous we are? See what great parents we are? Our kid is going to be faithful to the church. She is such a credit to us." I saw very clearly the insidious way the church used its little ones. I wanted to puke. I saw myself in her, and my heart broke for her. I still had some doubts about eternal consequences at that time (fear dies hard), but I knew one thing. No child of mine was going to grow up in THAT kind of a sick atmosphere!!!!!! Whenever I think of that experience the hair stands up on the nape of my neck.