Subject: Should I let my children be Mormon? (Very Long)
Date: Sep 13 20:55
Author: Heavenly Fodder
Mail Address:

As I first discovered the Fraud of Mormonism, I had children already attending primary classes, singing 'Follow the Prophet', and participating fully in Church Activities. I was raised Mormon and agonized whether I should silently hold my feelings at bay and let my Children enjoy the 'benefits' of Mormonism as I was raised, or to take them out while still young and impressionable and try a different path.

My wife and I struggled with this over several months, but eventually found that, FOR US, the Cons of Mormonism in our children's lives quickly eclipsed the Pros and we left Church one Sunday Afternoon, never to return.

I put together some of the many Cons that my wife and I discovered when we put our heads together, and have listed some of them below. Since this list contains Cons that we personally experienced as Mormons, some of the items may be unique to us, but expect that many of them are Universal. Hopefully, this helps some of you, as you consider the best future path for your lives and children's lives. I realize there are some out there in predicaments where pulling children from the Mormon lifestyle is NOT an alternative, and I truly sympathize.

I did not want my Children to:
- Learn fallacious reasoning skills like "Belief Trumps Facts", "Revelation is a more reliable and precise tool for understanding the natural Universe than Science", "Emotion is an indicator of Truth"
- Cling to the idea that '10 million members can't be wrong'
- Endure various Seminary tall-tales about 3 Nephites, Nephite Warrior guardian angels, Cureloms, lost keys, car won't start stories, recantings of Footprints in the Sand, ad naseum.
- Believe that dark skin was a curse of God.
- Be taught that the Book of Mormon is non-fiction, along with supporting ideas such as Native Americans being descendents from Book of Mormon people, and that Horses, elephants, coinage, steel, cement, reformed Egyptian were all part of Ancient America.
- Believe that the facsimiles in the Pearl of Great Price (which fascinated me as a youngster in Sacrament Meeting for years) represent anything more than common Egyptian burial texts.
- Accept the idea that God threatens prophets with angels wielding swords to marry other men's wives or be slain.
- Be subjugated to the First Law of Heaven - Obedience (obey, obey, obey)
- Feel that 'worthiness' is correlated to monetary contributions, or just saying 'yes' to a list of questions.
- Anticipate that bowing their heads and saying 'yes' and exchanging hand gestures with Elderly people in white robes is one of the most enlightening experiences they'll have on Earth.

I did not want my Children to:
- Feel threatened with eternal separation from loved ones if they're anything but a card-carrying member of the Mormon Organization.
- Internalize the idea that God is so ritualistic and exclusive that he requires that DEAD PEOPLE BE BAPTIZED into the Mormon Church before entering his presence!
- Believe that the LDS Church is the ONLY True Church on Earth. All other goodness and semblance of decency in humanity is Satan deceiving the very Elect.
- Interpret religious myth literally, leading to ridiculous notions like "Satan exists AND he is their big brother. Jesus is still alive AND he is their bigger brother. Heavenly Father loves US sooooo much that he allowed Satan, His least favorite son, to murder Jesus, His favorite son, so that we could be ONE HUGE DISFUNCTIONAL ETERNAL FAMILY!"

I did not want my Children to:
- Learn that non-marital Sex is almost equivalent in severity to murder.
- Practice Mormon Arrogance, i.e. - feeling sorry for others for not believing the same way, "My neighbor ______ is really sweet, even though she's not a member", etc
- Painfully become aware of the emphasis of Church over family as exemplified by Temple marriages preventing non-members from attending the ceremony, not attending funerals of close family members as a missionary, encouragement of a spouse to leave the other spouse when doubting or leaving the Church, etc.
- Believe there is something innately evil with using coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco in moderation, then stuffing down the fast food, ice cream, and brownies.

I did not want my Children to:
- Believe that this is a lone and dreary world. What a sad outlook of this life.
- Believe that animals and plants were created for human use (aren't we special?)
- Maintain that the Mastermind of this Universe has made an Oracle in Salt Lake City out of a group of white men in dark suits called 'The Brethren'
- Attend brainwashing testimony meetings
- Be taught that Joseph Smith was honest, heroic, and a good example after which to pattern their lives.
- Learn that Philosophy, Psychology, and most political ideas (except staunch conservatism) are dangerous and quite possibly tools of Satan.

I did not want my Children to:
- Deduce that the Creator cares about what kind of underwear they wear.
- Carry tremendous guilt anytime they are at odds with the Teachings of the Church (The Church is perfect, the members aren't).
- Learn that Masturbation is evil.
- Think that the Mormon Recipe for Happiness will solve any problem (The Mormon Recipe being to pray, pay tithing, obey leaders, read Book of Mormon, obey commandments, attend Temple, magnify calling).
- Be motivated to do things based on either promise of rewards or fear of punishment AFTER death.
- Believe God cares about how many times you pierce your ear
- Feel that anything besides procreative sex is taboo

I did not want my Children to:
- Go through the heartache of learning Factual Church History as opposed to Faith-Promoting Church History after a lifetime investment of time, energy, emotion, money, and possibly children and other family members to the Church.
- Feel betrayed by us, their parents, for not letting them know what we discovered many years ago.
- Feel encouraged from an early age to spend 2 years of their lives challenging the religious claims of others (throwing rocks from a glass house).
- Feel compelled to share the Gospel with friends, neighbors, associates or risk meeting them regretfully in the afterlife.
- Carry an unnecessary burden guilt and shame!
- Be Conditioned to feel aversion for opposing viewpoints (i.e. - They Should NOT read 'Anti-Mormon literature. They Should feel that anything besides a unanimous sustaining vote is bad, and that the dissenter is evil, etc)

I did not want my Children to:
- Become Reliant on fallible men to provide direction in life and almost ALL decisions, leading to a loss of moral autonomy and self-confidence. This is largely attributable to Priesthood blessings of counsel and direction.
- Associate Authority, Power, hence Superiority with the Male gender
- Fear Devils, Demons, Spirits, and other supernatural powers
- Feel encouraged to attend BYU where the environment of academic freedom is stifling and strictly conformist.
- Believe that natural calamities are punishment for wickedness.

I did not want my Children to:
- Fall into deep Depression over seemingly trivial dilemmas (i.e. - not fulfilling callings, not completing home/visiting teaching, not reading scriptures as family, not attending Temple, not paying tithing, having family members lose testimonies, etc)
- Believe that on Sunday, it is bad to go hiking, camping, swimming, fishing, skiing, dining out, shopping, etc.
- Believe that obeying the Priesthood leader, even when He is wrong, is the Right thing to do.

One of the most enlightening moments in our decision-making process was when my wife and I realized that the Pros of Mormonism endured despite Mormonism. For example, family solidarity is not only possible despite Mormonism, but even more likely.

We valued the following traits for our Children, and didn't necessarily need Mormonism to achieve the inculcation of these values. We found that Mormonism was actually at odds with some of them:

- Education, critical thinking skills, BS detection
- Family solidarity
- Strong Work Ethic
- Honesty, Courage, and Integrity (among other ethical traits)
- Service of fellow men, making the world a better place
- Ability to understand and appreciate different ideas
- Individuality, self-reliance, and strong self-esteem
- Health and fitness
- Appreciation of arts, music, nature
- Passion for Truth
- Gratitude and a sense of Wonder and Awe for Life

Good luck to all those that are considering the possibility of life after Mormonism. It is a very good and rewarding life still, even more so!


Subject: The church means different things to different people.
Date: Sep 13 22:01
Author: Ray A

One of the ironies I have always found is that the "anti-Christ of Salt Lake City", the late Sterling McMurrin believed very little of Mormonism. He was an agnostic philosopher who once lashed out at Boyd Packer and Benson, who once said "you don't get books from angels" and said he didn't have to "check" the authtenticity of the BOM any more than he had to check the North Pole to see if Santa was there.

Yet here was a man who was a loyal defender of Mormonism because of the virtues he saw in it. When he was threatened with excommuncation David O.McKay said he would be the first defender in any church court called for him. Joseph Fielding Smith once said of McMurrin, "you have the spirit", to which McMurrin replied, "I think that was a bit too generous". I think it was the same JFS who made a "deal" with McMurrin, who said to JFS, "if you keep me on your membership rolls, I will keep you on mine". It was a lighthearted quip. But McMurrin, despite his unbelief, remained a Mormon until his death. He also wrote two very influential books on Mormonism, The Theological Foundations of the Mormon Religion, and The Philosophical Foundations of the Mormon Religion, (I may have the titles slightly incorrect). He also spoke openly of the shame he felt about the blacks and PH, and he was a very influential Mormon in non-Mormon circles.

The point I'm making is that some people do find it better to withdraw, and I was one of them. But what you have to consider is whether the erosion of this quite strong moral and philosophical base will be to their detriment (your children). If they can avoid extremes and accept the good in Mormonism it might make them better people. And make no mistake, there is a lot of good in Mormonism. But I think you've clearly made up your mind. I always gave my children choices. Four of them choose not to be Mormons of their own freewill, and one wanted to be but because of family politics, divorce, and other problems she is not. I do think she was a better person as a Mormon, I really do. But my other children would have been oppressed by it and likely end up in open rebelliou, doing drugs, the lot. I think having that space and freedom gave them sanity.

Subject: Wow! Excellent post.
Date: Sep 14 01:07
Author: nw gal
Mail Address:

It's so weird. I was just lurking here and thinking I should write a list of Mormon teachings I disagree with. If you don't mind I am going to print and save your post. You said it all better than I could. I don't think there is a single point you made that I would disagree with.

My daughter asked me why we don't go to Tyler's church (her Mormon friend). I kept it simple this time. I told her how the church teaches that it is the only true church and that only people who join that church will be allowed to go to heaven. In her very eloquent nine year old words she said "That is a big fat lie." Gotta love the way kids speak the truth!

Subject: when I look at my tbm family members, I can honestly say . . .
Date: Sep 14 01:46
Author: imaworkinonit
Mail Address:

that the church makes almost ANY "trial" they are going through worse.

One is getting divorced. I know he tried prayer, counseling with church leaders and paying extra tithing to fix the marriage issues. It didn't work. (what a surprise). Because the issues involved required more effort, and specific kinds of personal changes that didn't happen. From my perspective, he was trying to put a bandaid on broken leg.

People want God to "fix" them, to "bless" them, to make the pain go away, instead of working and doing what needs to be done. It's a cop out half of the time. Then the problem stays or even gets worse and then they BLAME themselves (they didn't have enough faith, they weren't righteous enough). Or they question why god didn't help them. Either way, it inhibits solving the problem and just magnifies the pain.

And in the case of a "trial", believing that everything has a reason or is authorized by God, makes it worse in my opinion. Asking the question WHY something happened is torture. WHY did so and so have to get in that accident? How does THAT help? It's just one more thing to get over.

And what about the senseless guilt. Guilt for every human weakness. Guilt for losing your temper once in a while. Guilt for having a messy house and not being a good enough homemaker, or whatever you think you should be. Guilt for being late for things. Guilt is the most useless feeling I can imagine, but it is so rampant in the church it's amazing.

I used to think that guilt was a catalyst for change. Finally I realized that it was DRAINING me of the will to change. It was damaging my self-confidence as I berated myself as weak, bad, or incompetent. Then I would make the same mistakes again.

When I finally realized that the things I felt guilty for were not major character flaws, I finally started looking for constructive ways to change. I started to change, because I WANTED to change, not because I thought I was SUPPOSED to change. Not that I'm perfect now, but at least I don't feel GUILTY anymore, LOL! (Actually, I HAVE made some improvements).

I'm much happier now.

Subject: Re: Should I let my children be Mormon? (Very Long)
Date: Sep 15 18:29
Author: thunderdownunder
Mail Address:

HF, great post mate. Now if I could just get the wife to have a wee peep at some of these things you said, the sort of things that have directly affected her as an individual and impacted on both of us in a huge way. But she wont at this stage cause the church is all true!