|Subject:||Ever notice how lame the temple marriage ceremony is?|
|Date:||Nov 18 01:28 2002|
|My wife and I were married in the Salt Lake Temple nine years ago. I
haven't reflected on our ceremony that much since we left the church. However, reading
over it now, I realize that it's lost a lot of its original meaning and importance because
we're no longer true believers.
Notice how hollow this is when you know the church is a crock:
Officiator: Brother ______, [naming groom] and Sister ______, [naming bride] please join hands in the Patriarchal Grip or Sure Sign of the Nail.
Marriage Couple: Joins hands in the "Patriarchal Grip, or Sure Sign of the Nail." This token is given by clasping the right hands, interlocking the little fingers and placing the tip of the forefinger upon the center of the wrist. No clothing should interfere with the contact of the forefinger upon the wrist.
Officiator: Brother ______, do you take Sister ______ by the right hand and receive her unto yourself to be your lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?
Officiator: Sister ______ do you take brother ______ by the right hand and give yourself to him to be his lawful and wedded wife, and for him to be your lawful and wedded husband, for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?
Officiator: By virtue of the Holy Priesthood and the authority vested in me, I pronounce you ______, and ______, legally and lawfully husband and wife for time and all eternity, and I seal upon you the blessings of the holy resurrection with power to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection clothed in glory, immortality and eternal lives, and I seal upon you the blessings of kingdoms, thrones, principalities, powers, dominions and exaltations, with all the blessings of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and say unto you: be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth that you may have joy and rejoicing in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. All these blessings, together with all the blessings appertaining unto the New and Everlasting Covenant, I seal upon you by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, through your faithfulness, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Amen.
That's it! No lasting symbols (rings), no affection (you may kiss the bride), and no "honor, love or cherish one another." It seems like you're marrying the church more than you're marrying one another.
Do any of you have fonder memories of the temple marriage ceremony experience? The whole temple ceremony part seems so dry and shallow, have any of you found deeper meaning there?
The temple experience was so un-sentimental, that I've heard of Ex-Mormons re-doing their wedding vows and mentioning things like love and companionship. Any thoughts?
|Subject:||My temple marriage ceremony experience.|
|Date:||Nov 18 01:44|
|I was sealed on February 1, 1974 in the Salt Lake Temple. After we
came out, family and friends quietly asked us how our impressions were. My boss was there,
so I was careful what I said.
(thought): God, that was weird.
(SAID): It was wonderful!
(thought): What the hell was that all about?
(SAID): We'll come back again and again.
(thought) Does she believe this?
(SAID): It was great, huh, honey?
Mormonism is nothing but hidden thoughts with pleasant words. Go to a meeting someday, and you will see, it is a habitual dance with fake/true/fake/true.
I had a deep talk with a returned Mishy (my nephew) last summer, and he let out that what I said was true, but that he could never not be a Mormon. He feared for his eternal soul.
He is a fantastic "dancer" He now serves as First Counselor of the Elders Quorum.
He has a magnificent career ahead of him.
I asked him if he prays for me. He doesn't.
He knows I am right. If he thought I were wrong, he would pray for me.
His wife (politely) asked me to never talk to him again. So much for Strengthening the Family.
All talk. Opposite action.
|Subject:||I think it's pretty traditional...|
|Date:||Nov 18 07:55|
|to have a kiss and a ring in the temple ceremony. Maybe it's not
part of the actual wording of the ceremony, but it comes right along with it.
The information you are quoting suggests that there isn't anything like that, and it's either deceptive in it's omission, or it's incorrect.
|Subject:||They are afterthoughts, Dimmes|
|Date:||Nov 18 08:23|
|A traditional church wedding, the exchange of rings is an integral
and meaningful part of the vows. The kiss isn't, but it's usually done right up at the
altar and at the behest of the pastor.
In a temple sealing, the ring exchange is something you can do or not do, and I have seen the officiator instruct the couple to move away from the altar in order to exchange them. It's most pointedly NOT a part of the vows. Same with the kiss.
Though I have seen officiators instruct couples to kiss right over the altar. I think like a lot of things it depends on the officiator. I was at one wedding where the old guy didn't even know the first thing about the couple. They had each been married before to other people, and he was very clumsily asking them if they had children. It was so embarrassing. I think one of the worst things about a sealing is how the officiator usually has never seen the couple before and has no clue at all about them.
|Subject:||Our officiator knew us|
|Date:||Nov 18 19:58|
|Author:||Eve of Destruction|
|and he still had no clue! He used most of his time for advice-giving
to prophesy about our first year of marriage. Talk about false prophecy! The one thing
that was most blatant was that he said the church would not have a presence in the country
where we would be living. We had already made contact with the branch president and a
couple of members there, so we knew it was bull. He went on and on about the two of us
pioneering there as the only Saints in a strange land, and I just wanted to raise my hand
or go tug on his sleeve, and tell him to move on. But the good Mormon girl in me stayed in
her seat and just swallowed it.
He also told us that we would struggle enormously at first, and would be relieved when the year was over to come home to parents and friends. Au contraire. That year was remarkably easy and enjoyable compared to all the crap we've come home to. And my parents moved, so technically we didn't even come home to them.
I thought that having pulled strings to get an officiator that knew us would have made the ceremony a bit special. As a Young Woman indoctrinated to believe that the temple provided the most highest, most satisfying kind of marriage available on earth, I never would have suspected that I would consider a renewal of vows after having been sealed in the House of the Lord. But I do wish I had had a wedding in which the words spoken would be true. And even as a TBM, I knew that didn't happen at mine.
|Subject:||Nice gardens, though|
|Date:||Nov 18 02:45|
|Looking back to the same Salt Lake temple, I've never really given
it a second thought, although if there had been family members excluded I would probably
look back with mixed feelings. I think for some, the whole temple experience kind of
overshadows the marriage. That's unfortunate. But I don't think the Mormon religious
context should, looking backwards, detract from the memory of the event.
Nice building, nice garden for pictures, no fees--could be worse. And better to marry "right person, wrong place" than "right place, wrong person." Could be much worse.
|Subject:||Yes. hideously so. We renewed our vows|
|Date:||Nov 18 02:51|
|in a beautiful and traditional ceremony with a priest (unlike the
assigned sealer of the day 19 years earlier who had never met us!)- with a priest who
truly knew us both intellectually with a personal connection grown over months- in a
beautiful traditional setting surrounded by two centuries' worth of stained glass windows.
We stood before a 38 foot tall contemporary stained glass rendition of religious art.
I can kneel before that crucifix in that place every day I go to a local mass. It is not removed from reality. (Unlike the temple.) Nor is my marriage. LOL Sending my continuation kids in small groups to work in my parish's food kitchen at the homeless shelter- day to day community work arising from the good efforts of people that come together in that building- building THIS world making THIS life time become as loved as it can WHILE we're still alive.
That is how our renewal of our marriage vows strikes me- part of a renewal where I work shoulder to shoulder openly now in community among people who are NOT holding back hoarding food waiting for the second coming! and we are not "enduring to the end" as a couple waiting for life like unto Kolob building another world!! We are loving- just as we vowed in our wedding ceremony- to love one another in sickness and health love this community these people give THIS life
SO unlike a mormon temple ceremony which is SUCH a disconnect from the human community- loving among them living with them= and giving this life fully. The temple ceremony is more about hoarding energy love directing it just to the church- indirectly to each other- all with the intent of building another life! NOT this life!
|Subject:||Re: Ever notice how lame the temple marriage ceremony is?|
|Date:||Nov 18 11:06|
|During the years I was "active", I had
"occasion" (I was going to say, "the opportunity") to attend many
temple wedding ceremonies. After about five or six, I became tired of the small, often
overcrowded and stuffy room; the same facing mirrors and the story about looking into the
mirror to see how you can almost see into eternity (LOL); the same lame jokes by the aged
guy who presided and how everyone pretended at how "wonderful" it was. Then to
see the getup of the bride and groom made me start thinking to myself:
"Boy, wouldn't this ceremony be beautiful if it was being held in a spacious chapel, with the dad walking the lovely bride down the isle (instead of waiting outside because he wasn't "worthy" to see these lovely children make what could be the most important and significant vows of their young lifetimes.")
And I would begin imagining how great it would be with all the relatives in attendance, and the organ playing the traditional marriage music...and the groom in a tuxedo caught up in the magnificent scene as his smiling, escorted bride approached him down the isle....but then reality would hit, and I would let out a sigh, and endure the ceremony at hand to the end.
Now, I have been one of the "unworthy" parents waiting outside during the weddings of two of my children with two more coming sometime in the future. I suppose I ache inside waiting for them to come outside...but, while I ache, I try to imagine them marrying in a large spacious chapel, filled with relatives and friends of all different beliefs and it seems to make the waiting a little more bearable. The bottom line is, waiting in a nice garden setting sure beats shouldering up to a bunch of strangers in the crowded waiting room until your wedding party's name is announced and then cramming myself into the small, hot room to hear some guy in a white suit crack the same jokes about marriage that I have heard over and over again. At least, out in the fresh air, I can enjoy the surroundings and maybe enjoy chatting with some of the other "unworthies" who, like myself, are being denied the opportunity to see their child married by some ill-gotten and family un-friendly church policy.
Best Wishes!! (Sorry about the rant...but I think this touched a nerve or two.)
|Date:||Nov 18 16:46|
|Author:||Søvnløsener - Insomniac|
|1. The officiator at our wedding told us to kiss over the alter, and
we got to exchange rings after we stood up, then he told us to kiss again, "Well,
Brother Insomniac, aren't you going to kiss your bride?
2. I would love to renew our wedding vows, on a north shore of an Hawaiian Island as the sun was raising. No mention of church or the blessings of the holy resurrection with power to come forth in the morning of the first resurrection clothed in glory or any of that non-sense.
Just her, me and our family and talk of love, devotion, family, companionship.
3. Was this the same wording used by Brother Joseph to bend sisters married to other saints and teenage girls to his sexual will?
It is too bad that in every temple marriage the couple marries the church first and each other second and the church ends up as an annoying tag-along third spouse. Thanks joseph, you trumped up git.
|Subject:||Funny you should mention this (language)|
|Date:||Nov 18 17:06|
|Today, I had to fax our marriage certificate to the Minnesota DMV,
because my wife is trying to work out a discrepency between her citizenship papers and
I was also married 9 years ago in the Salt Lake Temple. My ire was kindled when I was looking at the certificate and noticed the metallic seal on the top that says "1893-1993 Salt Lake Temple 100th Anniversary, Salt Lake City, Utah." What the f*ck is that all about? And why does it get top billing over my marriage? Unbelievable! A building getting the limelight on my marriage certificate over me and my wife! It makes me want to get our vows renewed.
|Subject:||I was so uncomfortable my first time at the Temple (Oakland)|
|Date:||Nov 18 17:31|
|that all I wanted is to get it over with. I don't remember what we
said, I just wanted to get my street clothes on and get out of there. We had been married
in the Relief Society room the year before with the regular wedding ceremony. I remember
until death do you part was make clear if we did not go to the Temple. My husband had not
been a member a year yet when we got married by the bishop.
There was NOTHING ROMANTIC about the Temple Ceremony. I have wondered if I felt like that when I went then there must be others that feel like that also. But you don't talk about it.
|Subject:||Nothing romantic about it whatsoever|
|Date:||Nov 18 17:40|
|As Deconstructor's post clearly illustrates. But you don't talk about that. You talk about how spiritual and wonderful it was. Just like the mission experience. Just repeat trite fluff. Never the reality of it.|
|Subject:||Re: Funny you should mention this (language)|
|Date:||Nov 18 17:48|
|My husband and I were sealed in the SL temple in Dec. 1993. We also got a "special" marriage certificate commemorating the 100th anniversary of the temple. Since we'd already been married civilly, it didn't occur to me to feel slighted (but now that you mention it...).|
|Subject:||I'll have to take your guy's word for it, never been married|
|Date:||Nov 18 19:37|
|When I was a little feller I used to envision temple marriage was a kind of mystical super spiritual thing with angels coming down from heaven administering to the newlyweds and they'd teach you how to do some cool things like fly in your garments, give you the power to fling boulders around like a Jedi and speak in the language of the Kolobians. Oh well.. Old people giving you a sponge bath with olive oil, a movie with naked people running around in the bushes, secret handshakes, baggy white pajamas with aprons and funny hats?? Hmm...Is the food good? Is there any dancing? No kissing?|
|Subject:||I renewed my wedding vows twenty years after I married in the temple.|
|Date:||Nov 18 21:18|
|I loved it because I created my own wedding ceremony and my husband
cried during the vows. After our vows, we played the John Lennon song, "May We Grow
The best part was that my husband's family could attend the ceremony this time. Boy, did we party harty afterwards. I loved it!!!
Quite honestly, I never did feel right in the temple. There was something wrong in my gutt -- maybe it was just the weirdness of it all. And it was sad to see my husband's family excluded.
|Subject:||Re: Ever notice how lame the temple marriage ceremony is?|
|Date:||Nov 18 19:42|
|After reading all these rants about the temple marriage I feel quite
blessed to have had the honor of my special day being only for me and my husband and not
shared with any other couple. My dad walked me down the aisle with the wedding dress of my
choice. Mine happened to be sleeveless and showed very little cleavage but it was very
tasteful and feminine. If circumstances would've been different I wouldve been LDS and my
parents would've been banned from attending. After reading all your stories I am thankful
I never ventured down that road. I almost did. But stopped just in time.
|Subject:||HOLY MACKEREL: This is D&C 132!! The marriage "covenant" is the same! (strong language)|
|Date:||Nov 18 02:04|
|The Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant
is found in full in D&C 132.
POLYGAMY is alive and well folks! They have never stopped it.
These despicable lying bastards.
The Mormon Church is the whore of all the earth. They have earned the title.
That slim ball, pervert Joseph Smith, Jr., set himself up to have as many women as he wanted and gave all his cronies the same sweetheart deal (pardon the pun) and scare the holy hell out of the women. All in the name of a commandment from God!!!!
And he tells the men that a man has the right to 10 virgins (WHY VIRGINS FOR GODSAKE!!) (verse 62) without committing adultery and any woman who does not believe and administer unto him, SHE SHALL BE DESTROYED! Emma gets threatened in verse 54 and the rest of the women get threatened in verse 64 and she becomes the transgressor!!!
If that is not bad enough, this is what happened to Thomas Lewis in 1857 when he did not abide by the law.
The contemptible bastard that perpetrated this crime ought to have been castrated!
In the early spring of 1857, Warren Snow was Bishop of the Church at Manti, Sanpete County, Utah.
Bishop Snow was in his forties and already had several wives, but there was a fair young woman in the town that Snow also wanted for a wife. But the beautiful young girl told Snow that she was then engaged to a young man her same age, Thomas Lewis, a member of the Church. Consequently, she would not marry the old bishop. Bishop Snow, in Joseph Smith fashion, insisted that it was the will of God that she should marry him instead of Lewis. But the girl continued obstinate.
The ward "teachers" visited her and advised her to marry Bishop Snow. Then the ward authorities called on the young man and directed him to give up the young woman. This he steadfastly refused to do. Lewis was promised Church preferment, celestial rewards, and every other blessing they could think of to no purpose. He remained true to his fiancee, and said he would die before he would surrender his intended wife to the embraces of another.
Then the bishop called Lewis to go on a mission to some distant locality, so that he would have no trouble in effecting his purpose of forcing the girl to become another of his wives. But Lewis also refused to go on a mission.
"When that is done, he will not be liable to want the girl badly, and she will listen to reason when she knows that her lover is no longer a man."
In May 1857 Bishop Warren S.Snow's counselor wrote that the twenty-four-year-old Lewis "has now gone crazy after being castrated by the Bishop" for an undisclosed sex crime.
A month later upon hearing the news of what Bishop Snow had done, Church leader Brigham Young said :"I feel to sustain him," even though Young's brother Joseph, a general authority, disapproved of the punishment. In July Brigham Young wrote a reassuring letter to the bishop about this castration: "Just let the matter drop, and say no more about it," the LDS president advised, "and it will soon die away among the people."
See page 250-241 of D. Michael Quinn's excellent book "The Mormon Hierarchy : Extensions of Power" for even more details and references.
If a young woman persisted in rebellion and a young man refused to go on a mission, castration was a punishment the Church did not hesitate to employ:
Bishop Warren Snow of Manti, San Pete County, although the husband of several wives, desired to add to his list a good-looking young woman in that town. When he proposed to her, she declined the honor, informing him that she was engaged to a younger man. The Bishop argued with her on the ground of her duty, offering to have her lover sent on a mission, but in vain. When even the girl's parents failed to gain her consent, Snow directed the local Church authorities to command the young man to give her up. Finding him equally obstinate, he was one evening summoned to attend a meeting where only trusted members were present. Suddenly the lights were put out, he was beaten and tied to a bench, and Bishop Snow himself castrated him with a bowie knife. In this condition, he was left to crawl to some haystacks, where he lay until discovered [he] regained his health but has been an idiot or quiet lunatic ever since And the Bishop married the girl.24 (Smith 293-207)
There are several references to the Thomas Lewis castration.
Pages 284-286 of John D. Lee's Confession in MORMONISM UNVEILED, or THE LIFE AND CONFESSIONS of the Late Mormon Bishop JOHN D. LEE contain a very good account of the crime.
Pages 250-251, The Mormon Hierarchy, Extensions of Power by D. Michael Quinn.
Pages 301-302, The Rocky Mountain Saints by T. B. Stenhouse, 1873.
Vol. 5, pages 54-55, Wilford Woodruff's Diary, June 2, 1857
|13. Non-Mormon and Garments||15. Temple Divorces|
|19. Feel Ugly in Temple Clothing?||32. The Changing Temple|
|33. First Time to the Temple||42. Washing and Anointings|
|44. Stopped wearing garments||66. Secret or Sacred?|
|155 New Names Given in the Temple|
|165 Not allowed to the Temple Wedding||169 Can Temple Ordinances be Changed?|
|234 Changing Rules? Temple Marriages||238 She Can't Stand The Temple|
|243 Temple Hype Versus Reality||285 First Time to Temple II|
|288. Protestant Minister Pre-1990 Endowment||293 Excluded from Children's Wedding|
|301 Speaking Publicly about the Temple||306 Temples are Running out of Names|
|331 The Temple Endowment not Changed per Apologist||339 Temple Marriage vs. Traditional|