|Subject:||my brush with Mormonism|
|Date:||Nov 22 16:29 2002|
|I don't have a story about how I used to be Mormon, it's more of my
brush with Mormonism, I have more of a dilemma that I was looking for advice on.
I have a boyfriend that is Mormon. I am not Mormon and have no desire to be. We are very much in love and I know this is the man I would like to spend the rest of my life with. I know he feels the same about me.
When we first met I knew nothing about Mormonism. He told me some things about it and from the little he told me, it didn't sound that bad. So before I really learned for myself, I told him that I would take discussions. I thought I could at least do that for him, although I had no intentions on converting to Mormonism.
One of the first things he told me is not to believe what people say about Mormons, that it is all lies, etc. The only word I could think of to describe the way he sounded was brainwashed. Right away, before I did any research on my own, I noticed several aspects of the religion I did not like.
I have always been very open minded about a number of issues. For one thing I don't like the churches view on homosexuality. It really sickens me to think that they basically treat it like an illness and claim that no one is actually born that way. My boyfriend explained it to me as them being people who have given into temptation. What a bunch of b.s. if you ask me.
It also seems to me that Mormons view whites being a superior race, with there being that story describing the Native American curse as "they were white, and exceeding fair and delightsome; that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." That really bothered me.
I also like to drink a few beers now and then, I live off of Coca-Cola, and I curse. Although my boyfriend is known to indulge in a Dr. Pepper, he corrects me if I curse, buys edited CDs, and I basically have to drag him to R rated movies, where he will shut his eyes if there is a sex scene. I will give none of that up. This religion altogether seems very controlling.
Recently my boyfriend has decided that he doesn't feel worthy enough to enter the temple because he feels he has a problem with masturbation. To me he is making a huge deal out of nothing, considering that at the very least I always thought most guys did that and it was nothing out of the ordinary. He sees it as being "dirty." It really blew my mind when he told me he had discussed his "problem" with his bishop.
Sometimes I feel guilty because I feel like I am corrupting him. It just bothers me when he labels certain behaviors that I see as completely natural as "bad" or "dirty" without even thinking about it first. He sounds so "programmed" sometimes. For example, maybe some would disagree, but I see nothing wrong with having sex or engaging in sexual behaviors with someone you love so much that you intend to marry. What matters is that the same love is there as the love that is there when you are married to that person. I am not by any means trying to pressure him into sex, I don't care and totally respect his decisions, I just wish they were his decisions and not pre-programmed decisions from the LDS. When I bring my views on sex up with him, there is no discussion, the only thing he will say is " that's bad" or "that's sick".
After I started doing my own research, Mormonism seemed so false and like such a hoax. I read all about Joseph Smith and I strongly feel he is a manipulating liar. I have no idea how anyone can believe that. At points during my research I had tears in my eyes from laughter because some of it is so far fetched. I still cannot imagine how so many people believe this. Are they scared to think for themselves?
I told my boyfriend I was reading up on Mormonism, and he told me not to believe anything i read until he read it and told me if it was true or not because "people like to make up lies about Mormons." I believed him at first until further in my reading, many different sources were saying the exact same things. Then I started reading all of the scientific evidence and documented proof that contradicts many of the Mormon beliefs. I don't know how he can argue with science.
I am not trying to change my boyfriend's beliefs or take him away from the church. However, I don't see our relationship surviving if he continues with some of the beliefs he has. For one thing, he has told me that it is his dream to get married in the temple for eternity, basically implying that if I don't convert, we aren't getting married. That is not happening because it is not fair to me. I want my family to be there. I just wish he would look past his religion a little.
Thank you all for listening. Any suggestions are welcome.
|Subject:||sounds like a tough situation|
|Date:||Nov 22 16:37|
|Have you let him know that you do not want to be married in the
Can he love you still if you do not convert? Can he love who you are and not who he wants you to be?
Sounds like it might be time for a chat!
Oh - and, when you post, it is easier to read if you throw in the occasional double click of the enter key to create paragraphs and white space. (Not a big deal - not meaning to be critical, it was just a little hard to read.)
More good luck!
|Subject:||Re: Do yourself a favor...|
|Date:||Nov 22 16:52|
|and get yourself a new boyfriend. Your current boyfriend sounds like a typical non-thinking true believer. If his family is the same way, you are doomed if you don't capitulate. I'd say run. There are plenty of other nice fish out there without the emotional baggage he carries. You seem to have recognized Mormonism for what it is. You don't really believe you can just swallow it all now simply because you love this guy do you? Your integrity is too valuable to sacrifice it for that.|
|Subject:||Something you might want to read|
|Date:||Nov 22 16:58|
|Sounds like you are well informed, but just in case you haven't come
across this site, it's worth a read:
I'm in love with a Mormon!
I'm not optimistic for relationships such as yours. I wouldn't put up with a Mormon life style in your situation, yet if you marry him and have kids he's likely to become more and more Mormon--with your kids. Then they'll grow up thinking mommy isn't a good person because she won't convert, and you won't be "worthy" to attend their wedding. In his theology he won't go to the highest levels of heaven without a spouse, he'll be "damned" (which means stopped in his eternal progression in Mormon lingo.) There are so many reasons why this is wrong both for you and him. Now if he's willing to be a very non-dogmatic, very liberal Mormon whose kids will never be blessed in the church or never baptized or attend another church, that's different, but if he stays the kind of guys who runs to bishop to confess every urge, that doesn't speak well for your future with him. Sorry to be a pessimist...
|Subject:||At Least Remove Yourself From Your Current Situation..|
|Date:||Nov 22 17:16|
|I believe that it is important for you to remove yourself from your
current situation. If you find another boyfriend, great, but at least cut the ties now.
Your current boyfriend sounds a lot like my current brother in law was 20 years ago when
"dating" my sister. My sister chose to marry (in the temple) - and has become
somebody I don't know anymore.
Please be true to yourself.
|Subject:||If you read that site...|
|Date:||Nov 22 21:30|
|I'm Debbie. Don't do it. Don't join for love and don't give up
yourself to please somebody else. It's hell. Write me personally if you want, but you
sound like an intelligent woman. You know that you could never be happy being a Molly, and
that's all he wants. His good wifey who will honor his priesthood. Babe, you are BETTER
than that. Get out while you can. Find a great guy who will take you out for drinks and
dancing and make wild crazy love to you that makes your head spin. Wear Victoria's Secrets
underwear and not Mormon garments. Ski on Sunday, don't go to church. BE YOURSELF.
Been there, done that, lived with years of regret. Learn from my mistakes.
|Subject:||Same situation. Sucks doesn't it?|
|Date:||Nov 22 17:21|
|I have gone through much the same situation with my girlfriend. She
was completely inactive when we met but when I brought up the subject of religion(after
over a year of dating) she went nuts and went to the opposite side of the spectrum.
I started investigating Mormonism more closely and my reaction pretty much was the same as yours. The first time I read stuff I went over to her house the next day to see if what I had read was really true (cant trust everything you read after all). For a long time, I went on a binge. Read the entire damn Book of Mormon(what a sorry excuse for scripture) and copy and pasted every verse I had an issue with into Word. Scoured the internet for info. I filled 2 big 3 ring binders with stuff I had compiled.
I showed it all to her and it didn't make a damn bit of difference. Mormonism is all about feelings not facts. I hammered her constantly with various facts and any time she was backed into a corner she would bear her testimony. I hated that because it was such a brainwashed, cultish response and it took me over a year to break her of that habit.
This is the bottom line. First, you need to decide what you can put up with. Sounds like to me though that you will not be happy being married to an active Mormon. If you think you could handle it the question is can he handle you as being inactive? As you know, a mixed marriage presents problems to Mormons that don't exist for people of other faiths. It looks like he wont be able to handle those problems.
So he has to basically become inactive and substantially modify his views. That is very difficult in Mormonism because it is so controlling and invasive. Not only will his family members harass him but other Mormons as well. IF he lives far from his family it wont be as bad but it will still be a problem. Ironically, that used to be one of my gf's complaints about Mormonism before she became a Mobot. Really inactive is not good enough imo. He has to leave Mormonism because otherwise they will sink their claws back into him eventually.
You are in for a really rough ride regardless so unless you really love this guy just walk if you can. I probably should have taken my own advice about 2 years ago.
|Subject:||"Combating Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan is a must read.|
|Date:||Nov 22 17:58|
|He doesn't talk about Mormonism at all but his suggestions for
leaving cults (his was Moonie-ism) are right on the mark. Just don't let your boyfriend
see you reading this.
On a personal note I used the exact tactics that he describes in his book in getting my wife to leave the Church. It took three years but life is wonderful now.
|Subject:||Don't have sex with him|
|Date:||Nov 22 18:12|
|Don't take that wrong...my opinions on premarital sex are irrelevant.
Sex between 2 people is just that..between them. It is private. My point is that it will
not remain between the 2 of you. If he is confessing to his bishop about masturbating, he
WILL confess to having sex with you. And even as a non Mormon, there is the possibility
that his bishop will ask him for your name and phone # and expect you to come in and
discuss it as well. (That does depend on the bishop, of course...every one is different.)
But he will confess.
Good luck with your situation.
|Subject:||Re: Don't have sex with him|
|Date:||Nov 22 20:44|
|I would agree with that suggestion as well. I know this situation is tough because I have gone through it, even making the mistake of marrying the asshole. I'm saying that because the priesthood thing really boosted his ego, and he turned out to be emotionally abusive and controlling. I think he was just an asshole who happened to be Mormon. If you can, I would just leave because you never know what will happen.|
|Subject:||I hate to suggest breaking up.|
|Date:||Nov 22 21:08|
|My fiancée went through similar with me. He was lucky that I was
already questioning things and in the process of getting my brain into working gear.
However, he now has a set of future TBM in-laws who hate him and blame him for the
apostasy of their daughter (even though they do know the truth of the situation). He's
okay with it all, but I feel horribly about the situation. I do realize that any
non-Mormon I bring home to my parents will cause the same reaction. Damn 'rents.
The difference here, however, is that your boyfriend looks to be very into his beliefs. This means that he's out to convert you. If he really is serious about your relationship being long term, he won't let it pass that you're Non-Mormon. Even if you DO marry, he'll push and push just to get sealed in the temple sooner or later.
Talk with him,and find out where he stands, but I'm afraid that the best solution probably involves breaking up with him. Most of us on this board have had very bad experiences with being Mormon or around Mormon culture. You have the choice here to willingly subject yourself to it, or not. Looking at my history, and the stories of others around here, I'd really suggest breaking up with him. Even when it's at it's best, Mormon life is pretty abusive and draining. Why should you do that to yourself? It's not worth it.
|Subject:||This man has serious Mormon baggage.|
|Date:||Nov 22 22:24|
|Please use caution.|
|Subject:||run like hell and don't look back|
|Date:||Nov 23 00:50|
|You DON'T want to marry this guy. It would be a very BAD idea. Oh, and HE'S the one who doesn't want to have sex? Is it possible he's gay? He just sounds so religious and prudish that my gaydar is going off.|
|Subject:||Here's what might happen... (f-word)|
|Date:||Nov 23 16:32|
|Let's say he settles for you not converting and not getting married
in a temple (in his mind he would be settling). If you get married in the Relief
Society room of a ward building a significant part of the ceremony will be a harangue from
the bishop about how this ceremony is "less than" and that you really should've
been married in the temple. Do you want this?
If you convert or not you will be expected to put up with people from the ward dropping by without notice to teach/visit/"check in with you" (aka spying). Do you want this?
Whether you convert of not you will be seen as "less than" because you don't have a penis. Your opinions will be ignored because penis-less people aren't supposed to have opinions about anything except cooking and child-raising. Do you want this?
Weather you convert or not 12-year old priesthood-holding boys will have more "authority" in your house than you do. Do you want this?
This is just the tip of the iceberg. If your answer to these questions is "no" then get the f*ck out of your current situations and have no regrets.
I'm a nevermo, but these are some of the things I've learned from hanging out here.
|Subject:||how can you love a guy that has so many things you do not like about him|
|Date:||Nov 23 20:01|
|Mormonism is who he is, what he thinks about, his whole world is
seen from Mormon eyes and he lives within the Mormon box. There is no room for anyone like
you. There is no compromise. You probably know more about his own religion and history
than he does. I am sure you found out that he is so ill informed and uninformed that he
would not even recognize historical writers in his own church!!
He sounds like he is well programmed and has no idea how to think outside the Mormon World View!
Wouldn't you want to marry someone that you can share everything with, always?
|Subject:||I am in the same situation!!!!|
|Date:||Nov 25 13:46|
|hey . . I can relate to almost everything u have said! I am 18 and
my bf is too . . he is planning to leave for his mission though in 4 months. We have been
together for over a year and we are so in love . . and the thing is . . he had been
telling me that he wanted to spend his life with me and raise a family together etc. but
jus recently (last week) he told me that if he had the choice. . he would marry a Mormon .
. and for a while now i have been reading up on the net bout the faith and i too believe
that how can he argue with the science? i have not mentioned anything to him though bout
the sites i visited and i respect his beliefs and stuff but yeah so as u can see i have
been let down but im still with him.
Mail me so we can talk bout our brainwashed guys (lol) k?
hope to hear from u
|Subject:||Whatever You Do . . .|
|Date:||Nov 23 20:37|
|I'll be the last one to tell you what to do about your current
situation even if I agree with 100% of what's been said above. I do ask you, though, to
please keep visiting this board and share as you're able.
When I've been in situations like yours (the first with a Mormon and several unhealthy relationships since), there wasn't a thing anyone could say that would move me to get out of the relationship. So I'm not going to waste words but rather grant you the dignity to learn the lessons available.
Some of the obvious ones you can learn are already apparent to you: You can trust your perceptions, and he has been brainwashed from childhood. And yes, you do face some possibly insurmountable obstacles in trying to overcome those perceptual barriers.
It looks to me like you're healthy enough to recognize you may need to let go <<I don't see the relationship surviving if he continues with some of the beliefs he has>>and that seems to me a big plus. Hang tough and keep in touch.
|Subject:||He can freely change your beliefs, but you can't change his?...|
|Date:||Nov 24 22:53|
|Feel free to try to change anyone's beliefs you wish, to avoid the issue means that you place beliefs above knowledge. Thanks for your story.|
|Subject:||Wouldn't you be happier...|
|Date:||Nov 25 13:38|
|...with someone more in-line with your beliefs? This is going to
always be a major thing. You never even mentioned his family - they'll be a big problem,
Best thing to do is make the tough decision to move on. Your boyfriend will always work to control you and you don't sound like that type of woman. Imagine how wonderful a future relationship will be with someone who feels as you do about this stuff. Imagine the discussions you'll be able to have. Imagine the RESPECT! Be strong - dump him.
|Subject:||This guy thinks everything you do is "bad" or "dirty". You really want to marry someone who sees you that way? n/t|
|Date:||Nov 25 13:47|
|Author:||girl in the box|