|Subject:||Any TBM posers out there besides me?|
|Date:||Jan 16 11:38 2003|
|I think I'm probably outnumbered a 1000 to 1 in this forum. But I
was wondering who else out there, besides cricket, goes to sacrament, sunday school, and
priesthood meetings and tries to keep their mouth shut, playing the part?
I've been doing so for a year or so now, and am finding it somewhat frustrating and a waste of time. I serve in the cubscout organization (which I enjoy, my oldest is 9), and occasionally substitute in Sunday school.
Everynow and then I chime in during SS or Priesthood meeting, but it is usually to make a remark that absolutely no one else shares, or is designed to get others to think about how self-righteous and proud they all seem to me.
I quote teachings similar to the lds from the Buddha, the Tao-te-Ching, and other Eastern/Western religions and philosophies, and usually all I get are blank, interesting looks from the other TBMs.
Once, I discovered that Ezra T. Benson's most popular speech: "Beware of Pride," which he delivered shortly before he stopped speaking in public, had main concepts almost entirely lifted without providing sources (dare I say plagiarized?) from an earlier 20th century Christian writer by the name of C.S Lewis (see his book "Mere Christianity," the chapter on pride). This claim was unbelieved by most of the folks I shared this information with, mistaken thinking that their beloved prophet had it straight from the Lord, and not from an outsider, much less from one who smoked, godforbid!
|Subject:||just look around you in church this sunday...i'd say a good chunck of them don't believe, they are morgbots n/t|
|Date:||Jan 16 11:52|
|not a poser, but I ran into CS Lewis' grave by accident the other
I was playing in the park with my kids, and we walked through the graveyard of the church next to the park.
then, there it was: Clive Staples Lewis - born in Belfast 29 Nov 1898; "died in this parish" (oxford, england) 22 nov 1963.
|Subject:||I used to be, but|
|Date:||Jan 16 12:08|
|after a few years of going along, I couldn't take it anymore. I turned in my calling (teaching the teachers) when I realized I could no longer promote the bs. My son was in the class, still attends, but knows how I feel. Now I only make an appearance in sac mtg once every few months. much more peace in my heart, now to get the rest of the family out of the morg.....|
|Date:||Jan 16 12:09|
|Author:||We live in the same universe rpm|
|and by the way - nice find on CS Lewis. I knew he was quoted but not
that the whole structure and main ideas were Lewis's. My wife likes the talk so I passed
on the info to her. We can't talk about the church but I try to pass on relatively
non-controversial items. I think this idea of derivative work in the church is important.
The idea that everything is restored leads to isolation and arrogance.
Here is a remarkable derivation from the Westminster Confession (18th century) chapter 32 and Alma 40.
1. Both claim to give information concerning the state of man after death:
"... the state of the soul between death and the resurrection..." (Book of Mormon, Alma 40:11) "... the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection..." (The Westminster Confession, chap. 32, as printed in The Confession of Faith: The Larger and Shorter Catechisms, Philadelphia, 1813)
2. Both state that the souls of men return to God after death:
"... the spirits ... are taken home to that God who gave them life" (Alma 40:11) "... their souls ...return to God who gave them" (Westminster Confession 32:1)
3. Both claim that the righteous are received into a state of peace:
"... the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness,..." (Alma 40:12) "... The souls of the righteous, ...are received into the highest heavens, ..." (Westminster Confession 32:1)
4. Both state that the wicked are cast out into darkness:
"... the spirits of the wicked, ... shall be cast out into outer darkness;..." (Alma 40:13) "... the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, ...and utter darkness,..." (Westminster Confession 32:1)
5. Both state that the souls of the wicked remain in darkness until the judgment:
"... the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, remain in this state, ...until the time of their resurrection" (Alma 40:14) "... the souls of the wicked.... remain in.... darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day" (Westminster Confession 32:2)
6. Both state that the soul will be united again with the body at the time of the resurrection:
"... the souls and the bodies are re-united,..." (Alma 40:20) "... bodies ...shall be united again to their souls..." (Westminster Confessions 32:2)
|Date:||Jan 16 12:36|
|Author:||Romans house go|
|I am openly exmo to my family and ward but my good friend is posing. His wife knows his beliefs, perhaps his father as well. We both find value in each other's position and decisions, but I honestly don't know who's behavior is the most defensible. He pays tithing; I will not (though paid in full until about 6 years ago). He baptizes his kids; I cannot.|
|Subject:||Lots of TBM posers out there besides you|
|Date:||Jan 16 12:27|
|About 6 months ago I discovered the hairy backside of Mormonism, and
left the Church rather abruptly. Since I was the Gospel Doctrine instructor at the time
and was released without some grand new calling, my departure was quickly noticed, my wife
was quizzed, and the whole ward soon knew.
My wife was consoled and counseled by many of her Relief Society sisters. One, the wife of a stake high councilman, flat out admitted to my wife that she thought it was all hogwash, but went through the motions for her husband, kids, and grandkids. Another, a seminary teacher, admitted that she thought there were many unanswered and troubling questions about JS and his doctrine, but she would not leave and just chose to ignore them. Several others who were there every week in body, and vocally critical of my decision at first, have since found the courage to quit posing and have dropped out themselves.
I guess my observation is that Mormons assume that their fellow active members are full of testimony, and thus they should be too. Some justify attendance as the easiest thing to do. In reality, I wonder if the posers may help perpetuate attendance by other posers. If my ward had a "100% honest testimony meeting", they may be surprised at how many of their respected leaders aren't TBM. What a shame such testimony meetings don't exist.
|Date:||Jan 16 12:37|
|I keep up the act because the morg has its black tentacles firmly
gripped in my wife's heart and mind. My family would be torn apart if I let my true
feelings known. She once stated that she would never leave me . . . unless I "cheated
on her, abused her . . . or left the church, of course."
I have fantasys about bringing home the expose video on the book of abraham and showing it to her, or some such thing, but the risk is too great.
Besides, if I left my entire extended family would mourn me like a dead man.
So I do many things just as though I were a good little morgbot. Except that I won't take a calling, and skip church as often as I can. And I don't go to priesthood unless I can't get away with missing. I tell the bishop that I give my tithing directly to the church offices, for convenience with automatic payments, but I don't really pay a cent to them. They don't verify it. My wife tithes on her income, but I can't tell her not to. When she forgets I don't remind her, that's for sure.
Gahhhh! I hate the morg. I wish I could be true to myself and my family, but I don't want to risk the hell of a divorce.
|Subject:||I was in the closet for years before I could no longer stand...|
|Date:||Jan 16 12:50|
|going. I turned in all my callings, including home teaching, and
spoke to my wife and Bishop about my true beliefs. I go to SM once a month or so to keep
my wife happy. Most in the ward are sure I have sinned somehow and that is why I do not
attend. Like most of you I was active for a long time (20 years) served a mission, got
married in the temple, and considered myself a VIP in my ward. TBMs cannot accept my true
reason for leaving--I just realized I never really believed. I just did what I was told my
|Subject:||I look for the good in the church|
|Date:||Jan 16 13:17|
|and in the members, and try to point out the good outside the
church, heaven forbid, there is good out there!
I remain active to some deree because the wife and 5 kids are pretty much into all the activities and enjoy them. I find church tedious at times, but it's fun to sit back and listen and truly "understand" the predominant mindset among the TBMs, and admit that I too used to droneon endlessly the same nonsense. It is hard to judge when I myself was there not too very long ago.
QUESTION: As a non-believer, closet doubter, will I be able to baptize my son later this year when he turns 8? I would like to, and I do not want anyone else to do it. I think I, his father, should baptize him, and do the confirmation thing.
Do you have to pass some worthiness interview in order to officiate in these ordinances, if my worthiness is somehow doubted by the bishop? I don't have any qualms about it, baptizing and confirming my son, because I consider myself worthy to do anything I used to do as a TBM. I just don't believe in it all the same way as I used to.
|Subject:||Re: Any TBM posers out there besides me?|
|Date:||Jan 16 13:43|
|Author:||Me me me me......|
|I still go to church, although I absolutley refuse to go to fast
& testimony meetings. If anyone asks me why, I tell them it makes me break out in
hives. I live in a very isolated area, and we have a teeny weeny branch. They all know
that I have mixed feelings, but don't get any hassle about it. I do not fast, and do not
pay fast offering. I do not pay tithing, and there was no comment from anyone during
tithing settlement (perhaps because although our BP does the actual settlement, we send
tithing to an area president, or whatever he is called, 500 miles away).
We also only go to church for two hours...I bet those of you who still attend are jealous. It's because we are so small that there are two young women and one young man and so the primary/nursery has class together and the RS/PH/YM/YW all have class together.
Anyway, with that description I am sure that I have given myself up to anyone in my branch who might come here (which I doubt would happen.) but they all know I am opinionated and a bit odd.
|Date:||Jan 16 14:29|
|I go when I am at home. I am still a student so I frequently return
home or visit family on weekends. Until this fall, I was living at home full time and
pretended to be a very good, orthodox TBM. Hell, I even had a TBM girlfriend. At that
time, I found church more boring and pointless than offensive. If you don't take anything
too seriously, it's pretty easy to leave it all behind once you're out the door.
One funny experience from my pretending days last year. My Dad teaches gospel doctrine, but is frequently unable to teach during his assigned weeks b/c he is out of town on business. Well, he would often ask me to sub for him when he was gone. One week, the lesson was Noah. Now, short of BofM stories from Ether, the story of Noah is more unbelievable to me than just about anything in scripture. Well, I decided to teach this lesson in a literal way, bringing up all of the obvious inconsistencies contained within the story but not pointing them out as such. It was great fun. First I went through the dimensions of the ark. Then I talked about all of the species of animals that would have had to been loaded onto the ark. Then I talked also about how, in addition to this, there would need to be food and water to provide for all of them. Finally, I finished off with some great General Authority quotes about how we accept the story of Noah literally. Of course nobody tried to evaluate any of this any harder than saying "yeah, it's miraculous what the Lord can accomplish." Still, it was fun for me.
|Subject:||Re: Any TBM posers out there besides me?|
|Date:||Jan 16 17:08|
|I go to SM most weeks, but not much else. I did not go on a mission
but I did graduate from BYU (and had a good time). I just never really had a burning
desire or other warm fuzzy feelings for the church. I do like the family values that are
taught, but I get all churched out after about an hour. BTW, I had already decided that
the church was not true way before I ever looked up "mormon" on the internet,
which was about 1 month ago(boy, was I surprised by what I read).
I was surprised that I wasn't the only one.
|Subject:||Count me in!.....|
|Date:||Jan 16 17:29|
|I go to all meetings and play the part (although pretty much silently). I have a very hard time keeping my mouth shut in High Priests Group class, were the old guys always gush over GBH and every other Mormon cliche. It can be very difficult sometimes. Everyone knows I'm a fringer, but they just don't know the degree.|
|Subject:||? for rpm and any other "poseurs"|
|Date:||Jan 16 17:38|
|Being an obvious intelligent priesthood holding male in your ward,
I'm surprised that you don't have more ward responsibilities and callings besides cub
scouts. (Not to minimize the value of cub scouts, of course) If you're active and
attending each week, I would think the bishop would have you involved in other callings,
unless he has reason to suspect your doubts. It seems like the Morg is always in need of
faithful members to fill all the callings.
How do you remain somewhat aloof and still attend each week?
As far as baptizing your son, of course you should do it if you want to. The supposed authority that you have as a priesthood holder is in reality nothing, so you are just as just as able to do it as anyone else.
|Subject:||I work shiftwork, which keeps me out of church|
|Date:||Jan 16 20:13|
|at least two times a month. For that reason I think, I could be
disqualified from most meaningful and leadership callings.
But others may also have doubts about my faithfulness because of the comments I often bring up and stress in meetings. Comments which aren't the most faith promoting.
Suchas last week in Priesthood meeting, some guy was going on about how the lord blesses those who keep the commandments, and it was his observation that there are alot of wealthy mormons he knows.
Well, I couldn't help point out that Utah, now two years running, maintains the highest per capita bankruptcy rate the union. That one got him going: "ah, these are perilous time we live in. satan has a powerful grasp on the utah mormons. materialism is the biggest problem there. they all keep up with the joneses, etc. etc."
ALso, in gospel doctrine class they went on and on about mormons whose lives have been benefited by keeping the lord's health code, aka, The Word of Wisdom. AN example: The story about some athlete (I forget his name) I've heard a hundred times, who didn't party and drink booze the night before the event with the coach and all his teammates because he was keeping his church health code (turns out all the others the next day had gotten too ill to race, and he alone represented his team, and broke World Speed Records!).
I sat still listening to all the mental masturbation, until I was prompted to relate my own story.
Jackson Pollock, American painter, the leader of abstract expressionism, was an alcoholic. But it seems in the 50's he abstained from drinking, and it was during this 3 year dry period that he was inspired to develop his trademark "drip technique" which made him famous, and since has inspired a whole movement in abstract art. Not three years later, he took to drinking again. And consequently, Pollard lost his gift, and died tragically in an auto accident. This to me is also a testimony to the truthfulness of the lord's law of health, I said.
Blank looks. No comments. No one seemed to get it.
|Date:||Jan 16 17:50|
|I have been this way for 15 years since my oldest child died and I started to think and read to know something and not just believe. I studied and pondered and prayed and found out that we are all being mislead.( no angels just common since) Probably some of the 12 believe butI know that the real ones that are driving this money machine are just the biggest scumbags on the planet and deserve a fate worst than Hell. But of coarse they do not believe anyway so they just keep it up. Anyway I have to stay this way until I figure out how to shift my family, ya know the TBM wife ,parents, Kids, friends my whole bull***t life.|
|Subject:||I am, but not because I want to.|
|Date:||Jan 16 18:08|
|Currently live with and unfortunately remain financially dependent
on my UltraTBM parents. Of course, they also want me on the MTC Fast-Track(I'm 19.5 or
so), so even though I stopped believing completely in september, I've since been
inverviewed, sustained, and ordained to an Elder and had my Patriarchial Blessing(now that
I'd like to hope for the best, but I must prepare for the worst(ie. eviction+disownment). For that I need what precious time I can get.
At any rate, I drive myself to church, which basically means I skip class whenever I can. When I can't I spend my time doing some REAL scripture study... highlighting and bookmarking all the BS I can find.
|Subject:||My closet door is swinging open|
|Date:||Jan 16 18:36|
|My family knows I have some church issues.
No one dares ask me for any details.
Several family members have expressed concern and have indicated that they are "hoping and praying" for me.
My distancing has been slow and will probably continue that way.
|Subject:||John, I can totally relate to your statement....|
|Date:||Jan 16 19:05|
|"No one dares ask me for any details." It is the same with
me in my Teeny Weeny Isolated Little Branch (my title for it, lol) Everyone knows that
something is up with me.....but no one asks. I think they are afraid I will spew forth
tons of apostate filth upon them, lol.
I made this comment on a previous thread, but will mention it again. A TBM friend of mine asked me why I wasn't in church a couple weeks ago. I told her because I can't stand fast and testimony meetings, and went into my various reasons why. She told me that she admired my open mindedness....that even though I have problems with the church I still go. I was quite surprised with this statement to say the least.
Being that the branch is so small, we are all pretty close, and for now, they let me do as I want and they don't hassle me. I attend when I want to, and that's that. I really like these folks a lot. Very nice people compared to other places I have been, but I sometimes wonder what would happen if I told them I truly didn't believe a word of this stuff......if I bore them my "untestimony".
|Subject:||I can probably count on both hands the meetings....|
|Date:||Jan 16 19:05|
|I've missed in the last 40 years.
I'm a hundred percenter!
That's going to make the earthquake all the more seizmic when I make my exit---which may happen soon. Watch this space.....
|Subject:||Dimmesdale, the obvious literary allusion of your name intrigues me....|
|Date:||Jan 16 19:30|
|since readers of Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter", will forever remember Dimmesdale as the highly-regarded Puritan minister, ultimately destroyed from within by the psychological pressures of living a lie --- that is, knowing that he was perceived in a certain manner by his congregation, but inwardly knowing that the outward appearance was not truly himself. I assume you chose "Dimmesdale" as your internet name with this background in mind --- outwardly a believing Mormon --- inwardly feeling something different entirely. I did this myself, the last few years especially, as I served on the Stake High Council. I am curious --- if you don't mind expressing them --- as to what your present religious/social/political views are --- now that you have, at least inwardly --- abandoned Mormonism.|
|Subject:||Pretty much posing for several years, now I'm openly apostate.|
|Date:||Jan 16 19:36|
|For several years, mostly in bishopric, I posed. In the last year I
came out of closet but still attend at least half of the time with my wife, who by the way
is much more understanding than I ever expected.
Funny, most members now know of my position, but are also "scared to death" to ask me anything. My parents are totally freaked out. My 18 year old son thinks its cool.
|Subject:||But you're not really a TBM now, are you?|
|Date:||Jan 16 20:21|
|From your post, it doesn't sound like you are really a True
Believing Mormon. Sounds more like you are a New Order Mormon or at least a closet
doubter. In that case, there are a lot of people like that here.
I'm surprised to hear that Cricket attends the Mormon block meeting every week. His fellow Mormons must be clueless that he runs to most blasphemous Mormon site on the net.
What a waste of time to attend those church meetings and sit through all of the drivel about Mormonism. Why would someone put themsevles through that torture?
|Subject:||You are probably right|
|Date:||Jan 16 21:26|
|but I pose as a TBM, I think. My ideas and beliefs are far removed
from mainstream mormondom. Most ppl think I am true to the faith that I know in the
My remark about cricket was a jab. I heard he attended the last Worldwide All Priesthood Session like a good TBM should.
|Subject:||Cricket here to set the record straight x 2|
|Date:||Jan 16 20:45|
|As the "angels silent notes taking" will witness, I have
not attended block meetings for years. The last regular Sunday meeting I attended was to
my son's mission return and report two years ago. And that nearly killed me in more ways
I officially resigned membership in the Morg nearly a decade ago. I attend sporadic Mormon events to observe and return and report my labors of the seventh day. Most of these efforts are terribly boring, but the occasional zingers and outrageous statements made by GA's are makes me laugh. Like Neal Maxwell in all seriousness telling the world that the Lord gave him leukemia to that he could be "athentic" with the Lord's people.
I just love it when the GA's confirm their spiritual retardation without even realizing it. They really truly don't get it - that the joke's on them. And the more serious and somber they act the funnier it all gets.
On E.T. Benson's "Pride Talk" - He didn't write it. Steve Benson will tell you that Ezra told his family he needed a good talk for the upcoming conference. Somehow his daugther in law or a sister in law or some female in the family had written at talk on pride. Ezra liked the talk and read it on Gen Conf. Now he's known for his great Pride talk.
The average Morgbot has no idea that the GA's are NOT inspired, not holy and are no different in any aspect of their lives than me or any joe blow on the on street. They have not seen Jesus and never will.
When, I'm not angry about wasting 40 years of my life in the morg, I think this whole Mormonism thing is one giant practical joke. I switch from laughing and crying and ranting.
|Subject:||I did for years, and was prepared to attend forever, but she "loved me more than the church" and she left with me.. n/t|
|Subject:||Re: Any TBM posers out there besides me?|
|Date:||Jan 17 00:25|
|What really strikes me in these responses is how many of you 'closet
doubters' are forced to attend church to maintain family harmony. Being in the south,
where about 1% of the population is Mormon, I have no issues with having to juggle
disbelief in Mormonism with family or employment concerns. My Mormon family members all
live over 300 miles from me, and my wife and kids all left the church with me. Your
circumstances, though I've read hundreds of them over the years, really blow my mind---the
fact that "free, white, and 21-year-old" adults who are married, own homes, run
businesses, pay taxes, etc., are forced by their surroundings to be involved against their
wills in a religion that they don't believe in. It's like, I've got dozens of Southern
Baptist churches all around me, some with over 2,000 members each, but there's no social
pressure on me to attend or join any of them.
What's really sad, IMO, is that if all the spouses and children of you ex-Mos who post on these internet forums realized the fraud and left the church along with you, the Morg would be experiencing a much greater decline than what is currently being reported. Perhaps one day that will happen for many of you. Till then, my hear goes out to all of you who suffer in silence.
|Subject:||Re: Any TBM posers out there besides me?|
|Date:||Jan 17 02:06|
|Author:||looking for a way out|
|No, you are most certainly not alone. I realized the church wasn't
true at the wise old age of 12. Between the appalling way we were taught to treat our non
member friends (you'd have thought they had the plague or something) and my own father's
bigoted and idiotic views of the world and other people who weren't white and mormon,
taught to him by this "only true church of Jesus Christ", I realized that if
Jesus actually said what He said and did what He did in the Bible, He wouldn't have
anything to do with this "true church" it is so diametrically opposed to what He
taught and how He was.
I became inactive the second I left for college. That was about 16 years ago. In that time, I have probably been 'active' in the church 6 of those years (by that I mean I've been a poser. I have never been a TBM. I currently attend, but do not believe a word that I hear. I usually just sit back and marvel at the ridiculousness of it all. It is starting to get to me, though. I had to give a lesson last week, and having to drum that nonsense into those innocent children's little minds made me want to vomit.
My children, however, enjoy mutual and primary, and I let them, but they are never subjected to scripture study, family prayer, or home evening (although we do fun acitvities together as a family, just no lesson, and not on Monday night etc.) If they don't want to give a talk in church, etc. I don't make them do it. We never tune in to General Conference, either. We rarely attend sacrament meeting...usually show up for the other two for the kiddies. Whenever I can get out of going, I do. Funnily enough they both say their prayers at night, but not because I have ever made them, it has come from their own hearts and for that I am glad. I learned at an early age that forcefeeding children religion only makes them run as hard as they can the other way.
Also, I am very close to my family and really don't want to hurt them. At present, I am trying to walk the fine line of appearing to be somewhat active and trying to teach my daughters to think for themselves. Just the other day, we were driving past a church (not sure what denomination it was) and I commented on how pretty the rock facing on the church was and my daughter responded that 'our church doesn't believe in putting all that stuff all over our churches. Ours are simple and beautiful'. Typical mormon condescension for any other religion. I immediately demanded to know where she got such an idiotic idea and she admitted that they had discussed it at church. Well, I gave her a tongue lashing that she won't soon forget about being narrowminded and looking down on people when you don't even know them and judging people on things you imagine to be true but actually have no knowledge of and finally on believing everything you hear instead of using the brain God gave you to figure a few things out on your own instead of mindlessly repeating tripe you hear others say. Needless to say, I think she got the message. I hope to be able to break away completely someday soon. Until then, I am definitely a poser, although I don't really hide the fact that I take the whole thing with a grain of salt. This is nothing new to my family. I've been objecting to things I didn't like about the mormon church since I was twelve. I was sure glad to find this site, though. I've learned a lot of stuff since I've been here. It's a relief to know that not only am I not alone, and that the gut feeling I've had since that tender age didn't lead me astray, like my family has always said (I'm the black sheep of the family...only one who hasn't been through the temple) but instead led me to the truth. With this new knowledge of some of the real truths about the mormon church and it's history, I'm hoping one day to somehow educate my family on the realities of their religion.