|Subject:||I'm jealous! A lot of your TBM spouses (especially wives) were able to see the light...|
|Date:||Jan 17 18:59 2003|
|and eventually exit the church with you, or at least agree with you
that there does exist ERROR and LIES (which for starters, would be more than I could ever
hope for), even if it takes a few years. For example, "SOCRATES" said that his
non-confrontational approach and three years of tithing and lies finally got her to see
the light. Others have mentioned the books, "Enigma, and In Sacred Loneliness."
I can't help but wonder, in all my envy of your situations, how many of you who have been successful did so with a spouse that was:
1) Born a member
2) Has TBM family too
3) Temple Married
4) a UTAH resident???
I would appreciate anyone answering these even if you just KNOW of someone rather than it applying specifically to you.
I have a feeling that, in RARE instances this occurs, but the majority of cases tend to be:
1) A convert (has a more open mind to begin with)
2) Has or had inactive parents or siblings to some degree
3) never temple married, or temple married LATER on in the
4) and lives in most any state other than UTAH
I don't mean that the successful cases have all the above components, but perhaps at least one or two..
leaves me feeling more HOPELESS...and more ENVIOUS..of a situation I DREAM of...
My situation, by the way ( you can see I have every strike against me...)
1)She (wife) was born a member and indoctrinated since
birth in a TOTAL TBM family ("fart" was a BAD word)
2)ALL her family is TBM, and I don't recall of ONE in
her immediate family that hasn't been extremely active,
gone on a mission, or been temple-married.
3) Married in the TEMPLE..Her journal going way back
talks about it as being the supreme pinnacle of
her goals, and has ignored any mention I"ve made
of the "changes" and anything else which questions
Mormonism through her rose colored glasses.
4) We live in UTAH (where her social structure AND
family further reinforces the "forever TBM"
NOW I'M DEPRESSED! I'm anxious to hear of someone CLOSE to my situation that has been successful and their secrets...
It feels HOPELESS, but I haven't lost all hope....
|Subject:||I am one of those wives|
|Date:||Jan 17 19:09|
|All of those criteria applied to me but I can't say that I was as tied in knots as your wife. Mabye the NOM board is the place to start for you as you are right your situation may not lead to such a happy exiting scenario.|
|Subject:||I Am One Too (Encourage Outside Interests!!!)|
|Date:||Jan 17 19:39|
|I was all of those things. Utah, brainwashed from birth, TBM. Well,
except for temple-married. I had a very rough year the year I met and got engaged to my
husband. Somehow (maybe that old marry-the-first-man-who-asks-you syndrome) I married an
RM who didn't believe in the church anymore. I was pregnant at our wedding.
So anyway, he loved me so much he was willing to go to church and stuff even though he didn't believe. Luckily, he didn't have to because the first thing I did with my new Adult Power of Decision was decide we didn't have to go to church for awhile. So we were inactive, but I still believed. But I didn't think about it for awhile (was probably tired of all the guilt and 'unworthiness').
Then we got a computer and the internet and I started expanding my horizons. Nothing like information at your fingertips. My husband was supportive of all my interests. I got interested in the topic of religion and read about all kinds of religions. I found some that appealed to me so much more than Mormonism. I didn't dare admit it, though. Until I finally found exmormon.org and saw proof that the church was a sham... and I was relieved as well as shocked. I was free from that moment.
So I suggest being supportive and thoughtful and wonderful, while encouraging her to explore her interests... because delving into any part of the real world will help give a contrast to the absurdities of the Church. Making friends with non-members in a pottery class or some such will help. Making friends with people around the world will give her a taste of the real world and break the stereotypes the church spouts and show her that non-Mormons can be good people, happy and fulfilled (and that most Mormons are unhappy and snide). Give her a taste of the real joys and pleasures the world has to offer (food, sex, nature, culture, etc.) and I think she will outgrow the church. I did. =)
|Subject:||Don't give up|
|Date:||Jan 17 20:21|
|Socrates and imaworkingonit live in Utah County of all places, and
they both have TBM families.
Have you heard of the interfaith marriage group that meets in Provo once a month? It welcomes "apostates" and their TBM spouse. We found that the TBM spouse benefits the most because she finally gets to talk about how difficult it is to be married to a bum who won't go to church any more. Nobody tries to correct her on that and we look for emotionally healthy ways to deal with differences in the couple. This is a moderated group, free and open to the public, and it meets at the Provo library on the first Monday of the month at 6:30pm. The wives love it because they need to talk about how it feels to have your spouse apostatize, they even get together for lunch and things outside of group. They talked about starting a web site in support of such couples. There's usually 3 or 4 couples in attendance.
|Subject:||Raising my hand on this one|
|Date:||Jan 17 20:55|
1. Born a member. Pedigreed. Ancestors in w/Joseph Smith in Carthage Jail.
2. Yes, he has TBM family.
3. We married in the temple.
4. Utah resident? OH yes, currently.
I guess we kind of made the journey together. I did the research and gave the information (books, etc) to him to read... the truth instantly made sense to us both.
We both went through the emotional roller coaster at the same time. I wasn't "in his face" about any of it; it hurt us both.
|Subject:||4 for 4|
|Date:||Jan 17 22:51|
|My wife and I meet all 4 of your criteria, and we left together.
Best thing we have ever done for our marriage and our kids.
Not long ago my wife said she could tell I had checked out long before we physically left. I raised issues when the occasion arose, but did not push anything on her - and that was the right approach. My exit was on an intellectual level. Hers was more practical. She gave it her all for well over 30 years and rather than making her happy it made her crazy. She didn't want to know of any of the problems until right before we left. And then she was ready - it was kind of "well that explains it."
So, I'd suggest you go slow, don't push her, or push information on her. And show her that your marriage is more important than anything. Recognize the social side too. Encourage your wife to do things that will expand her interests and social circle beyond church things and people. It will be much harder for her to consider leaving if by doing so she will also lose her entire social life. In my wife's case, she took a tennis class and met some nice non-mo women, and then started playing league tennis with them. After we left she started playing with them on Sunday mornings and would often say how much better that was for her than going to church. Those friends definitely made it easier.
The last thought is that much of this is out of your control. I was lucky. Hope you are too. Best of luck.
|Subject:||Re: I'm jealous! A lot of your TBM spouses (especially wives) were able to see the light...|
|Date:||Jan 17 23:16|
|My husband and I were born into the church from TBM families and we
both served missions. Shortly after our temple marriage (in the temple with TBM siblings
and parents present) his parents passed away. A dozen years after that I left the church
and my husband followed me a year later.
Truthfully, I wonder how things would have worked out if his parents had still been alive. He was heavily dominated by his father's expectations and I can't imagine him leaving in the face of so much pressure. No, I take that back. He would have left with me but would have lived a lie with his parents.
The thing that is so sad is that his folks were not very happy people, largely because of their strict religious constraints. What would their lives had been like if they could have left? My husband and I have so much more fun and happiness on a daily basis precisely because we grow in the direction our hearts and minds take us. I am sad to say it but their absence in one way set us free to make our own path towards personal fulfillment.
Family ties should be a blessing but in the case of a rigid structure like the morg your family ties can strangle you.
My own parents think they are TBM but they are not. They have no clue as to what the church really teaches and therefore didn't suffer the way the inlaws would have. My parents still think we will all be in the CK together because we were sealed in the temple. They don't even get that because I have left I will not be with them in "heaven."
Of course it's all a load of horseshit anyways. What a lot of suffering people's beliefs cause them to endure, eh?
|Subject:||But you will be in heaven with them|
|Date:||Jan 17 23:59|
|If you don't reaccept the gospel in this life, you will in the next.
That's part of what being sealed in the temple means. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both
said so, and the Ensign quoted them on it a few months ago.
So hey, don't sweat it if your parents want to be happy despite your new beliefs. They didn't invent the cosmic "Get Out Of Outer Darkness Free" card all by themselves.
|Subject:||This is what helped my wife.|
|Date:||Jan 18 01:49|
|Hi there, first of all, hang in there. Remember your love and
marriage is far more important right now then trying to convince her that everything she
believes in is a fraud. What did it for me? simple, We moved out of Utah. We moved to
another state for a job, (I had no idea it would also solve our religious differences)
well, living outside the mormon-state brought her (wife) much insight on the incredible
and wonderful people who aren't mormon. It got her thinking how horribly sheltered we were
in our TBM families, temple marriage, ancestors of prophets, blah blah blah. She was
extremely SLOW about admitting her feeliings to me, but I just listened. I encouraged her
to continue researching and meeting various people of all religions, race, etc. She came
around within 1 year and half. But it was hard for her to admit what she learned. Getting
out of utah is also what opened my brother's eyes as well. Can you and is it feasable to
try another state? I know that's extreme, but if your desparate it may be worth it.(Idaho
wont work lol !)
|Subject:||Same Here . . .|
|Date:||Jan 18 09:40|
|It wasn't precisely planned, but these are the steps that happened
to us, that helped my once TBM wife leave after I did:
1) Told her I was 'uncomfortable' about the church and reminded her of several past events: her extended family missing our temple marriage - was that fair?, the 2,3 and sometime 4 callings we were asked to do - burnout, and the treatment of women - some history books just left around the house. I found out that the temple had really bothered her and I worked on that.
2) Saw a strong member also leave before us. Began to bring up questions of why such a person left, when we knew the cause was not any 'sin', but disbelief
3) We moved. (I know extreme, but a marriage is worth that!) Got away from our both TBM families by a few hours. Yet, we ended up in a twisted insular wierd little ward where a number of odd teachings were manifest. (I could not have asked for a better - or, I should say, worst - little ward to move to.) So far to the extreme from our more liberal beliefs was this ward that it actually helped set the stage for her disbelief.
4) Finally, I challanged her to seek out the truth. I emphasised that without due dilligence and a search, she will remain uncertain and emotionally lost. I turned on the computer and encouraged her to read up on the church on-line
I think that other than sleeping and eating, she was on-line for about 5 straight days. I took care of everything around the house to free up her time.
I sort of used my once and former missionary tactics, in reverse and a little slower, to set up the situation. I knew I could not force the issue, but there was nothing stopping me from planting a few intellectual land mines along the way . . .
|Subject:||My Wife's Change|
|Date:||Jan 18 02:26|
|My wife was raised in a large TBM family. Both parents families
multi-generation mormons, raised in Utah. Not all sibs are active now, but all raised in
traditional mormon household. When we met, my wife had already gone thru temple and
attended both church and temple regularly.
One thing that definitely wouldn't and didn't work with my wife was my bringing up any so called "anti" literature or points, or being hostile, resentful or negative towards the church. It rocked her world somewhat when I told her I could never go back to church because I could no longer believe in it. But I did tell her that I was telling her because I loved her and that it was important that we were always honest with each other and that I couldn't just go thru the motions as that would be dishonest.
I always made our marriage top priority. I never pushed an anti mormon agenda in her face, which would just make her defensive and make her dig in her heels deeper in mormonism. Slowly (over about two or three years) she changed a lot on her own. She considers herself mormon, yet she never goes to church, (in fact she says she doesn't miss it one bit) doesn't wear her garments, has a cup of coffee when I make some, has the occasional drink if I'm having one, doesn't regret raising our two kids out of the church.
I think she saw that I was happy, more relaxed and that the world isn't going to crash down when you leave the church. I think that if I had tried to force her hand more, she never would have allowed herself to come to those conclusions on her own. I will say this though, she doesn't have a family who ever said anything negative about her decisions and lifestyle choices. Her mother, although a very dedicated LDS member, has said she's seen enough so called good church families go down in flames with problems, that she'd much rather see her daughters live happy fulfilled lives out of the church than stiffled, unhappy ones in the church. I wish you the best of luck in your situation.