| Subject: | Why so much anger? |
| Date: | Jan 20 10:47 2003 |
| Author: | Scott Jensen |
| I have been visiting this BB for about 6 weeks now. In general I
find it very interesting but occasionally I am shocked at the virulent anger affecting
some of the posters. I understand the anger but want no part of it myself. I wish I could
find a way to help those who feel this rage. For myself I joined the church in in my late twenties and now, 20 years later, I am out. The roots of my exit are complex and the process took time and is actually continuing -- particularly the healing which this BB helps. I promised myself that I would not fulfill the prophecy that those who leave have no choice but to fight the church. I will not fight and though I regret my overall participation in the COJCOLDS there are aspects of which were helpful. I characterize my participation in church through the following Buddhist parable. A man was on a long arduous journey. One day he came upon a raging river. He traversed the bank looking for a way to cross but could find none. He then constructed a raft from logs in the nearby forest and crossed the river. Having successfully negotiated the opposite bank would that man be wise, in gratitude to the raft, to lash it to his back and carry it with him on the rest of his journey or should he leave it at the shore. For me I have left it at the shore, grateful that it helped, but unwilling (in wisdom, I hope) to carry the burden anymore. Thoughts? Best always, s! |
| Subject: | I don't know if this is a good response to your question, |
| Date: | Jan 20 10:54 |
| Author: | ExMoron |
| but some of the folks on this board have been through, and are still
going through, a lot. They have people they love and care about withholding support and
acceptance, just because they are no longer believing morgbots. Some have suffered
divorce, the loss of children, etc. Also, some are angry at all the years, money, and
resources they were screwed out of by the morg. And some people are just angrier by nature
than others. Frankly, I'm surprised people on this board are as upbeat as they are. |
| Subject: | I have a different take on it -- Exiting Mormonism has NO RULES- |
| Date: | Jan 20 11:16 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| Everyone does it their way. It is a highly personal process. We get to feel any thing we want, any way we want, there are no restrictions, no right or wrong way categories. This is a Recovery Board, not Sacrament Meeting Talks! When we start lining people up in right and wrong ways of expressing ourselves, right and wrong behavior, right and wrong things to think, we are still trapped in that very restrictive, subjective Mormon Box Thinking. When we leave Mormonism, we give ourselves permission to recognize that all people deal with leaving differently and how they do it is completely up to them. It is not a contest with rules. Those ideas are no longer valid. Many of us have confused passion for anger and have a hard time seeing the difference even when we have left Mormonism behind. I could care less about what Mormonism says will happen when we leave. They are only interested in scaring people into staying and keeping them living in fear. The subtle use of fear and emotionally charged words worked before, but for me, not anymore! I have wised up to their tricks! Why would anyone fear normal human behavior and emotions? It is time to allow ourselves to be human. I posted this the other day, maybe it will make my point. REPEAT of post related to topic: I have always understood anger to be a secondary emotion. It follows something else like: disappointment, confusion, shock, hurt, etc. A good number of people who leave the Mormon church are angry and some never stop being angry. However, the most angry people are the Mormons who become outraged when someone challenges their beliefs. They can become violent and dangerous and even when non-violent, destroy whole families and relationships. They often remind me of animals who eat their young! Processing years and years of outrageous, outlandish, ridiculous, ludicrous, unrealistic, unreasonable, unconscionable, ungodly, abominable,horrid (is that enough adjectives?) behavior from leaders with their mantle of their calling askew, and swallowing hook line and sinker, the so-called wiggle-wobble doctrines and teachings from the Mormon Church will leave a person shaking their head trying to make sense of it all. And that often takes time. Lots of it. Thinking it through, wondering what happened, talking and writing about it helps to process the experiences, and it can take a very, very long time. For some it is a short time, but for those highly invested, with years and years of Mormonism in their thinking processes, it takes a long time to purge all that nonsense. Anger, probably resulting from being hurt and treated unfairly, and not listened to or accepted, is a good thing. It is probably the best motivation to get someone to figure out what is wrong with the Mormon picture and do so searching for some answers. Humans tend to learn more from pain that pleasure! I found that, for myself, obsessing and staying in a state of anger did not benefit me so I try to recognize it quickly and move directly to humor! Because, Mormonism is extremely funny stuff. Also, most of the Mormon/Christians I know do not recognize any emotions except: angry or happy. If you are not a happy Mormon, you must be an angry non-Mormon. All of Mormonism seems to fall in those either/or categories. It is amazing to listen to someone respond to factual information that is clear and precise and then accuse me of being angry! Initially, that surprised me and I thought I must be doing something to give them that impression. I knew I was not angry, and their comments got a snicker from me. Then it dawned on me. I am not doing anything. They are so well programmed that they actually think and believe that anything that does not fit their view of their OK Mormon world is anger. I find it difficult to get a TBM to understand the difference between passion and anger also.They think passion is anger! I suppose you could say that because Mormonism is based on a lie from the get-go from Joseph Smith, Jr., (and human beings instinctively know a lie from the truth) that making that lie a matter of faith by believing it as factual, and a testimony, creates some kind of twisted mental process that finds it's way into other areas of their lives. Non-Mormons confronted with Mormon employees or bosses are often baffled at their attitudes and behavior as they are so far outside the norm in business relationships and office management styles. I am fortunate, that I was not one to defer to the male leadership, especially, when their behavior and actions were completely unreasonable. The notion that I was to be obedient just for obedience sake was ridiculous. I have a mind that hears and recognized inconsistencies in information and it never did set well with me to hear the leaders make subtle demands from the women and put them in a secondary position (or third behind the Aaronic Priesthood) while saying they were equal. The inconsistencies in the Mormon teachings just never stop! Lining your life up according to those inconsistencies is extremely frustrating which results in a lot of anger. Being lied to usually results in a lot of anger also. Anger is one of the most powerful human emotions as it can lead to a dramatic change that improves our lives. Anger is the way out of submission, the way to freedom, the way to a whole life! Mormonism is a good thing to be angry about! |
| Subject: | when it's OK to be bitter... |
| Date: | Jan 20 11:03 |
| Author: | blabber |
| First of all, I think that if you take a random sample of people
anywhere, you're going to get a lot of variability in certain traits -- intelligence,
honesty, tendencies for positive self-presentation, and aggressiveness, etc. It may be the case that angry people are more likely to post, and more likely to agree with other posters who are angry. in that sense, our sample here on the BB may be skewed in the angry direction. BUT, although I don't have the negative experiences that some people do, I see it as harmful. When you've been beat up, it's normal and acceptable to be angry about it. One of the early posts on this board (around 1997) that I remember had a discussion like this one. I have never forgotten it. It struck me because many people described having lived through mormonism as similar to being raped. Emotionally, intellectually, and unfortunately sometimes, physically raped. When you've been raped, it's normal and acceptable to yell and scream and be angry and feel and express whatever it is you are experiencing as a result of it. I think it's understandable to be angry with mormonism, to be bitter, to be pissed off, to want revenge. If your experience was more like "being on a raft on a river" than "being a cat in a bag thrown in a river", then you're lucky. I wish it were more like that for more people. But it isn't. |
| Subject: | Why? A Thought. |
| Date: | Jan 20 11:26 |
| Author: | ink |
| My great-great grandfather came accross the plains with Bring'em
Young as a wagon mechanic (for lack of a better term). From him to my sweet
great-grandmother, to my baffled grandmother and my confused father.. they've all been
duped by one of the biggest frauds ever perpetuated. I have dozens of cousins, second
cousins and many beyond; all who were brought up to think it's completely normal to marry only
in the covenenant and to submit to sexual questions posed by old men about what positions
are used and what underwear is worn; to think that black people were "less
valieant" in a farsical pre-existence; to view intellect as an evil tool of a pretend
black-apron-wearing spiritual pseudo-uncle; to see homosexuals sitting "next to only
murderers" in their crimes against the rest of us; to feel the moral guilt for
drinking Coca-Cola or various other crimes against humanity. It makes me a bit angry, to say the least. |
| Subject: | Feelings buried alive never die. |
| Date: | Jan 20 11:39 |
| Author: | TLC |
| Better to get the anger out than letting it sit inside of us and
fester. It's great that you had such an easy time of it Scott. But I'm one of those bent ones that mormonism places just a step above murderers. Try living with that for most of your life and see what kind of feelings percolate to the surface. Even though most of the anger is gone now, I reserve the right to continue expressing it, if and when it surfaces. |
| Subject: | "Feelings buried alive never die" is the name... |
| Date: | Jan 20 13:30 |
| Author: | JusThinkin |
| of what I consider to be a very good book. A book that has been very
useful to me in helping me to help myself. I think highly enough of this book that I have
given it to a number of my friends as a gift. Karol Truman, the author is I am quite sure, LDS, and I don't hold it against her. In fact I think she is a convert. I discovered this book after I was convinced of the fraudulent nature of MOism, so I was initially pretty skeptical. I've come to believe that her purpose is unsullied by religious motives. She has developed a methodology for transforming negative feelings (including anger) in a way that allows a person to move beyond into the positive. A primary tool that she presents is a 'script' that a person can use to help with converting feelings, emotions and thoughts. This 'script' contains references to 'divinity', however, she suggests that a person should substitute whatever word or words they are comfortable with in lieu of the words that she uses to represent 'divinity'. I believe that she is focused and concerned with helping people to improve the quality of their inner life...irregardless of religious or any other type of leanings. This, I think, can be considered to be the highest of all purposes. This is most definitely a self help book and although there are a whole slew of them out there...this is the one I would have if I could have only one. |
| Subject: | If I'm angry then that's my buisness. |
| Date: | Jan 20 11:38 |
| Author: | brefots |
| This idea of right and wrong feelings are absolutely flawed. If I feel something then I feel something, and there's nothing wrong with that. I didn't intend to feel that something, I just did. I can find out the causes behind that feeling and do something about it if it's a feeling I don't want. I can express it, I can deny it, I can ignore it. But it's there already and it's telling me something. My feelings aren't right and wrong, they are telling me what is right and wrong for me. And likewise with anyone elses feelings, it's their buisness, based on their values and desires. And if they are angry then let them be. It's their emotions, their brains, their bodies, their opinions. They have every right to feel what they feel, (and we really can't do much else). You can not control yourself or your feelings by neglecting, discarding or ignoring them. |
| Subject: | Know what makes me angry? |
| Date: | Jan 20 11:41 |
| Author: | angry poster |
| Posters coming on here and suggesting to other posters how they should be feeling about their recovery from mormonism. |
| Subject: | Thank you. You said it. |
| Date: | Jan 20 12:03 |
| Author: | Cheryl |
| Those who judge other people's feelings are often still under cult
control. Mormons tend to think each feeling they have is a message from the HG or an indication of their personal worthiness. They often lie to themselves and others about their true feelings. They project inauthentic images of themselves, and never learn to process what is actually going on within. They have a right to mistreat themselves that way. They do not have a right to judge or try to force other people to deny or reject inner feelings. Judging the actions of other people is frequently inappropriate. Judging their feelings is invasive and unconscionable. Mormons have strange, unrealistic attitudes about feelings. Once someone understands what you have written, they are well on the road to recovery. |
| Subject: | Re: Why so much anger? |
| Date: | Jan 20 12:04 |
| Author: | Søvnløsener - Insomniac |
| In an effort to decrease my blood pressure, I am avoiding thinking
about the blessings the church has giving me. So every time thoughts of the church come up I consciencely direct my mind to various Financial Accounting Standard Board pronouncements. These don't get me near as excited as The One True Church. |
| Subject: | Re: Why so much anger? |
| Date: | Jan 20 12:32 |
| Author: | Scott Jensen |
| Gee, I was not saying people shouldn't be angry (as many seem to be with me for starting this post). I also acknowledge anger's benefit (and progression) and as stated I understand it but I also feel (careful when I say know)unresolved anger is not healthy. My initial question was how do I help people with anger. Also, clearly my participation and exit in and from the church appears to feature less turmoil than others. But I would hardly call it easy. By being here I am still healing and am willing to help others heal also. I appreciate the distinction made between passion and anger. Thanks Finally, if I offended anyone by starting this post I sincerely apologize. Best always, s! |
| Subject: | When anger is defined as bad, then personal submission is usually defined as good. (nt) |
| Subject: | I would venture to guess that "unresolved anger" is not as unhealthy outside |
| Date: | Jan 20 13:22 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| Mormonism as inside it! Any state outside Mormonism has to be more
healthy than living inside it. How do you help people with anger? Listen, understand, have compassion, empathy, share how you deal with it. I think that's about it! :-) Actually, I was much more angry as a Mormon as a former Mormon. I always thought there was something wrong with me. Then I realized that Mormonism is crazy-making and Mormons just do not know how to deal with and recognize normal human emotions. |
| Subject: | I Think a Lot of It Was Always There . . . |
| Date: | Jan 20 13:48 |
| Author: | SL Cabbie |
| The church's philosophical structure provides a means of defensing
out the anger (since it's basically a process of rationalization) and preventing it from
intruding into consciousness. Once the mental defenses are lost, the anger is there (and
alive, as TLC notes) and must be reprocessed (or even acted out in understandable, if
adolescent fashion). This includes a lot of the "set-ups" the culture leaves us vulnerable to (with strong social sanctions to enforce compliance). I've just started reading "The Double-Bind" elsewhere on this site, and it makes for some heavy thinking. Porcessing anger for me usually comes down to realizing it is partly a synthetic emotion born of fear and partly the result of a judgement of others "wronging" me. In the former case, I can assume responsibility for my fear (such as saying, "Yes, I'm afraid of Death and that this is all there is), and in the latter, intellectual understandings can go a long way toward liberating someone. I think most of us realize the depth of brainwashing that true-believers have been brought up with and the difficulty in setting that aside. That at least makes the lies and betrayal understandable and perhaps even forgiveable for the saintly types. That said, I'm still likely to slam the door in the missionaries' faces. |
| Subject: | Why should the man be thankful to the raft?... |
| Date: | Jan 20 14:26 |
| Author: | Imlois |
| It was his own excellent idea that got him across the river! |
| Subject: | Re: Why should the man be thankful to the raft?... |
| Date: | Jan 20 14:36 |
| Author: | Scott Jensen |
| Its a parable. Therefore the interpretation and application is left
to you. Personally, I think it means that one should not necessarily have to be thankful
to the raft. But if you are thankful and no longer need or want the raft, wisdom dictates
that you do not have to be burdened by the gratitude, hence not carry the raft with you.
Just say thanks and be done with it. Move on. Best always, s! |
| Subject: | I see this parable as very appropriate in defining... |
| Date: | Jan 20 18:06 |
| Author: | JusThinkin |
| a methodology that is effective in helping a person to move beyond
the negative and hurtful aspects of life and towards the positive, more beneficial aspects
of life. What is more effective than just "leaving it behind"? This is a real
concept that works with those addicted to drugs, alcohol, sex, violence or any other form
of addiction. When you are through with it...leave it behind. Whether it's anger or whatever other negative emotion you have the need for at any given time. Look back on it as a tool that was useful to you in getting you to where you are now...just like the raft...you needed it at that time, but now you've left it behind. |
| Subject: | Why assume anger is bad? |
| Date: | Jan 20 14:45 |
| Author: | DeafGuy |
| As I see it, mormonism puts a heavy emphasis on anger being a
negative emotion, to the point that any criticism of mormon beliefs will often invoke the
response "Why are you so angry?" But really, anger is an entirely valid emotion in appropriate situations. We should all be angry at the injustices in the world, and mormonism is a big one, what with all the deception and injury it causes. Heck, I wish more people would get angry at that. Of course, we assume that one keeps their anger in control, appropriately applied, and so forth, but hopefully that goes without saying, right? |
| Subject: | Anger also has a valid place in grief and healing. |
| Date: | Jan 20 15:03 |
| Author: | Breeze |
| And a lot of people here have loss and destruction in their families
and other support systems when they choose to leave the church. Shock, denial, anger and a
small host of other emotions labeled "Negative" by certain sectors of the
population are the result. Those emotions will be there and, given the more open
philosophy associated with post-mormonism, we might tend to be more aware of them. Once a person who has suppressed anger, contention, disagreement, questioning of authorities, starts to live with these feelings, the ability to express themselves might be a tad stunted at the outset. The result is seen in the relative immaturity in some expressions of anger around here. I know, in my mid-30s I had to start back somewhere where I was in my early 20s as far as negotiating give-and-take situations and working through conflict and managing some of my anger. I've gotten better and this board has actually helped that. Thanks, all! |
| Subject: | I assume anger to be bad if... |
| Date: | Jan 20 15:05 |
| Author: | JusThinkin |
| it is hurtful or harmful to the person who is angry. I assume it to
be even worse if it causes the person who is angry to do hurtful or harmful things to some
other person...and in fact it can become extremely bad in this case. Certainly I don't consider anger to be a positive emotion, but rather, hopefully, a transitional emotion that a person moves beyond into a more constructive way of being. I most definitely find interesting and appreciate many of the posts that are put up on this board that arise from an obvious anger within the poster. Anytime a person communicates in a genuine way, whether from anger or otherwise is excellent IMHO. I didn't get a sense that Scott was judgemental in his question about anger...but only just questioning "Why so much anger". That seems to me to be an authentic question worth asking. |
| Subject: | I love that |
| Date: | Jan 20 15:14 |
| Author: | a fan |
| I'm not opposed to a truly good sermon now and then. Thanks! Something good to think about. |
| Subject: | Hey Scott - your first paragraph came across... |
| Date: | Jan 20 15:51 |
| Author: | TLC |
| ...a little bit judgemental and/or condescending. Not really a big
deal, but I think the responses here have been very appropriate and tempered. It's one thing to recognize the anger expressed here but it's quite another to make a judgement about it. I wonder if you might not be able to express the same thoughts minus the judgement. No biggie - just thinking out loud. I enjoy your posts. I hope you keep posting, with or without anger. :-) |
| Subject: | Re: Hey Scott - your first paragraph came across... |
| Date: | Jan 20 16:36 |
| Author: | Scott Jensen |
| TLC, Thanks for the viewpoint. I was not trying to be judgmental and certainly don't want to be condescending. But if I am either it is not intentional and since I want to be neither I would like to understand how it came across as such. (Its the only way I can correct my behavior) In the beginning I just wanted to understand the source of anger as I did not see it as constructive in the long term. I agree the posts were very reasonable and enlightening particularly about anger's value in healing -- a necessary phase which I forgot. I begrudge no one for having anger and actually enjoy the energy that often comes out of it. Best always, s! |
| Subject: | I lost my family |
| Date: | Jan 20 16:35 |
| Author: | whitecloud |
| I am an only child and my mother was a single mother. She was my
family- all I had for many years. She became a member of the mormon church when I was 14- and quickly became a top of the scale TBM. She is totally indoctrinated- so indoctrinated by the mormon church that she has turned against me because I am an apostate (I joined the church with her but left in my early twenties). She keeps trying to create the mormon family of her dreams to replace me. She had a disasterous marriage to a mormon man who was abusive and tried to strangle her. During those years she devoted herself to this man and his children. Me and her grandchildren ceased to exist as she roleplayed the fantasy of the perfect mormon wife and mother. She just loved turning up to church with her husband and three "children". Except the children preferred their real mother and her husband disliked her and only married her for her money and tried to kill her one day when he had enough of the charade. During those years I tried to support her emotionally and I forgave her easily for wanting the mormon family of her dreams. I invited her to live near to us so she could enjoy watching her grandchildren grow up. A few years later she chummed up with a swiss mormon girl (my age) and spent the next few years overseas travelling with her. She referred to this girl as her daughter and the "daughter"'s child as her granddaughter. Again her blood family ceased to exist.Until one day the girl turned on her and severed the relationship that was the end of that. I secretly read some of the emails to this girl one day when I was over at my mother's house. The way my mother referred to me in those emails made it very clear that she no longer cared about me and her only interest in me was to try to sell me a property she wanted to get rid of. We had been living in her property after we sold our house and some building work was being done on her property. A builder cut into an asbestos containing wall while we were living there and we became involved in an asbestos scare and had many of our possessions contaminated. It was a very frightening and stressful time and we still don't know if we will get asbestos related disease in the future because of our asbestos exposure. Reading my mother's emails her only concern about the asbestos was that it would put us off buying the property. She wanted to sell the property but due to the depressed property market she couldn't sell it and recoup her investment. She was hoping to sell it to us at a price that would give her the money back that she had put into it. I realised once and for all- after reading what she really thought of us and how little she cared- that she was no longer my mother in any meaningful way and I severed contact with her. She tried to get back into my life when her swiss "daughter" dumped her but I won't let her back in. Recently she has taken to dropping in to visit us unannounced and uninvited (my husband insists that she is allowed over for birthdays and xmas but that is the only contact I will allow) and last time she brought up the subject of religion. I made my usual points about the mormon church and to my suprise she agreed to read the "anti" stuff. I got all excited thinking maybe this is the turning point. The only way I would let her back in my life now is if she left the church and came to her senses. This was a few weeks ago and I haven't heard from her since. I realise now that she won't be back to read the "anti" stuff and that I am fooling myself that she will ever let got of the insanity of the mormon church and be a mother to me again. I have a vast mountain of proof against the church that won't ever be read by her- but in looking for all the proof against the church I learned a lot more about the church and how cynically it lies to its faithful and my anger has grown exponentially. My mother would never have done any of this had it not been for the mormon church. They have filled her head with the idea that only mormons are worthy and that I will be going to hell anyway so why bother with me. The church has caused me huge amounts of pain- and the worst part of it all is that the church is a money making scam led by enormously wealthy and influential people who know that the church is a lie but continue to keep the faithful in a mushroom state- in the dark and fed on sh**. |
| Subject: | Your mother is sick |
| Date: | Jan 20 16:50 |
| Author: | PMF |
| She obviously has no relationship with the bibilical Jesus. According to the bible, Jesus said everyone must forgive. She clearly had no intention of forgiving you for being different from her. Her behavior is extreme. She used to the church to manifest her sickness. Watch your children. |
| Subject: | Thank you |
| Date: | Jan 20 17:02 |
| Author: | whitecloud |
| I do think my mother is mentally ill as well- thank you for
verifying my thoughts. Sometimes I think I am going insane myself as I try to get my head
around what she has been doing and how normal and OK it seems to her (and to my husband as
well- I have had enough of him as well and am starting to realise that he is emotionally
abusive as well and I am thinking of leaving him and getting free of all these toxic
people) I am scared for my children and my mother has been barred from having any contact with them unless it is at our house on the afore mentioned special occasions. |
| Subject: | Why anger? (two cuss words) |
| Date: | Jan 20 18:21 |
| Author: | Ex Lax Joe |
| My exit from the church was long enough ago, that any feelings I
have towards the members have become tempered. However, I am still VERY angry that the church, as an institution, is able to manipulate my family to the extent it does. Requiring 10% of a young struggling family's income is immoral. Requiring them to take time away from their family(for callings) is immoral. Requiring the members to provide slave labor in a cannery, a profit center, is immoral. Asking the members to clean the church buildings, free of charge, is immoral. Forcing members to choose the church over their own family is immoral. Asking members for information about their sex lives is degrading. Requiring members to exclude their "unworthy" family members from marriage ceremonies is cult-like. Telling members what kind of underwear they should wear is sick and twisted. And basing all this immorality on the fairy tales told by a demented, money-digging pedophile is evil. I am passionate about the fact that I abhor the church and the way it mind-fucks the members. But I'm also angry that the church would attempt to steal my family away from me. That anger will NEVER go away so long as the church continues to defraud my family of their money, time, livelihood, and self-respect. I feel the same way towards the church as I do some asshole beating a small child. Ex Lax Joe |
Recovery from Mormonism - www.exmormon.org |