|Subject:||The problem must be with you rather than the church....|
|Date:||Feb 06 10:39 2003|
|I had a discussion with a co-worker (he is active LDS) about
troubling aspects of the church, i.e., the Book of Mormon, Abraham, etc. Anyhow, as we
discussed some of these issues, he asked if my life was in compliance with church
teachings. His reasoning is that if someone leaves the church, the problems really exist
with the individual rather than the church.
I love the Red Herring concept. Members of the LDS faith (only trailed by slightly by politicians) are masters of this approach. Rather than dealing with the problem, lets blame the person for everything. Lets not deal with the issues that Joseph had such as boinking 14 year old girls and translating the Kinderhook and so-called Abraham scrolls. No, lets not deal with the issue that the temple ceremony is a rip off from the Masons. No, lets not deal with the issue that the Book of Mormon is a plagiarized book from the Bible and contemporary sources. Lets blame the person and see what type of problems he/she really has.
One thing I have learned well with this church is that they teach openly that lying and not taking responsibility are truly the first principles of the gospel.
|Subject:||Oh ye of little faith|
|Date:||Feb 06 10:46|
|Oh ye of little faith. How often has the collective sought to gather
you as a hen gathers her chicks, and yet ye would not. But if you can just be faithful
over a few things, God will make you ruler over many things. You see Gary, only by faith,
becoming as a little child, will you become strong. Use the Force Luke.
Well, I guess that's one way to look at things, especially if you're a blinded cult infested brain dead moron.
|Subject:||It's the only explanation they can find...|
|Date:||Feb 06 10:55|
|I have also seen this. They cannot comprehend that there might be
some legitimacy to others' comments. Do you doubt? You must be a sinner, hiding moral
transgressions that force you to find something--no matter how ridiculous--(in their
eyes)wrong with the church to avert your own guilt. You are looking for excuses to shield
your real desire to engage in acts that are inadmissible in the church...
It's a very effective mindset, let me tell you.
As I go through the process of re-evaluating my own set of beliefs, I feel constant pressure not to engage in activities that are historically opposed by the church, so I CAN honestly say that I have no ulterior motives and that I CAN live by their standards. If the day comes that I choose not to follow the church, it won't be because I need my booze or have an affair or something, but b/c of doctrinal and spiritual reasons...
Just my 2 cents...
|Subject:||Re: The problem must be with you rather than the church....|
|Date:||Feb 06 10:55|
|I think the real issue is that active Mormons start from the conclusion that the Church is "true," whatever that means, so all the evidence that might cause an inductive-thinking person to conclude otherwise simply doesn't matter. If you're part of the tribe and defect from the "truth" based on the evidence, then there really is something the matter with you. That's how they see it.|
|Subject:||I love to tell these ignorant TBM's that I left the church with my temple recommend IN HAND|
|Date:||Feb 06 11:03|
|full tithe paying believer until I realized it was a crock of
poppycock, a sham, a fraud, a hoax!
If a TBM wants to live their life controlled by their UNDERWEAR - go right ahead! But, do it fulling aware that they are very funny, goofy, ridiculous, NUTS!
Nothing funnier than some TBM doing the PPI on the spot and asking questions that are NONE Of their business.
It is fun to turn it back on them and ask invasive questions that are none of your business like:
Do you confess masturbation to the bishop? How about your wife? Were you sexually pure and chaste when you married? Have you ever had an "impure thought." Do you repent of all of your sins. Do you read the scriptures everyday? Do you fast and pray? Are you ready to meet Christ if he appeared today? Is your LIFE in order or just your garments that are in a bunch?
Poor TBM's. They have no idea how ig-nert (Utarh term)they sound!!
|Subject:||But the problem IS you...|
|Date:||Feb 06 11:03|
|If you can't ignore Joseph Smith's foibles and just concentrate on
getting your home teaching done, then you do have a problem! :-)
But yeah, it is like that. It galls me to remember that just as I was starting on the path to apostasy, I found out that my former mission companion and good friend was already a ways down that path. So my first line of questioning was a tentative "Is there anything wrong in your life?" sort of deal.
The cult programming is insidious.
|Subject:||"Misery loves company," and no matter what you say, they don't believe you.|
|Date:||Feb 06 11:13|
|That's been my experience. They're living a lie and know it, and so
they think you're putting on a facade too.
I work with a bunch of TBMs who constantly put on their Morgbot hats in an effort, I believe, to impress me and to lure me back into the cult. What's funny, but also sad, is that most of them live miserable, chaotic lives that I wouldn't want for anything! There's not one thing about Mormonism I find the least bit appealing, and they just don't get it.
I'm a very happy, positive person with a great life, and it drives them crazy. I'm attractive, fit, and healthy, which is counter to everything they've been taught is supposed to happen when someone leaves the fold.
I've had my trials, including alcoholism, but I've been sober for nearly 11 years now, and I did it without the Mormon church. Most of my coworkers don't know about my alcoholism, but they know I don't drink alcohol or smoke.
Anyway, I know exactly what you're talking about. IMO, TBMs are as good of experts at lying to themselves and others as are alcoholics. I know, because I've been both.
|Subject:||This approach is OFFICIAL LDS doctrine|
|Date:||Feb 06 11:23|
|Consider this quote from the D&C. (Bold added by me)
|Subject:||Re: This approach is OFFICIAL LDS doctrine|
|Date:||Feb 06 16:25|
> Consider this quote from the D&C. (Bold added by me)
I agree. It has always been taught that when people leave the church it is because of sin or because someone offended them, but it is never because they found fault with the doctrine.
Regarding the list of verses you read. This is why 90% of mormons don't read the scriptures. Is there a longer, more drawn out and boring way to say, "The sinners of the world are the ones that won't come unto me." Jesus H. Christ Joseph hire an editor.
|Subject:||Gary, what are you doing now?...|
|Date:||Feb 06 11:39|
|I don't see you here much.
You were rather recently (5 yrs) a bishop, weren't you? I'd love to hear a little more of your journey.
For those of us who are still "in," it might be helpful.
|Subject:||Re: Gary, what are you doing now?...|
|Date:||Feb 06 11:58|
|We moved about eight months ago. We still live in Utah. Although
many people in the area are LDS, several of our neighbors are non-members or exmos.
My wife attends church once in awhile. She attends for social reasons but has serious doubts about the church itself. I do not attend or have any associations with the church.
It is true I was a Bishop in our old ward. However, I was only in for two years before I asked to be released. I did spend three years prior to being a Bishop as a Bishopric member.
There were some difficulties with leaving the church but not too many. My wife's family are devout LDS. However, most of her family members live outside of Utah.
I am much happier today then ever before. The move we made was a good decision. Furthermore, I have been able to start a new business that should move full time by this summer. Even during these recessionary periods, we have been lucky.
Upon reflection, I think I have know for several years that the LDS church was nothing more than another man-made organization. I do not hate the church. However, with that said, I think the church is not a healthy place for people (I wished my wife understood that but she needs to figure things out at her own pace).
I almost have to laugh when people think that the problem exists with the individual rather than the church when issues arise. However, I think many of these people are so afraid of the truth they will cling to whatever they can for security. This is why I believe the LDS church is not a healthy organization.
|Subject:||A question or two.|
|Date:||Feb 06 13:49|
|What was the wards/stakes reaction when you asked to be released?
Did the stake throw up any obstacles for you?
Did they have one of those damage control meetings during sacrament?
How difficult was it for you during those two years of being a Bishop?
|Date:||Feb 06 12:00|
|Gary, I had precisely the same experience. It was like a slap in the face. I thought this friend was pretty smart, and I expected that he had figured out the morg fraud long before I did. I expected him to be a fellow traveler. Instead, his reaction was as you described in your post. It makes it really difficult to talk, because the basis of discussion is no longer the morg's difficulties, but instead is now focused on your compliance / non-compliance with the rules. It's like defenders of a castle keeping the foes at the outer defenses, so they can never approach the inner sanctum. Great defense. Just fails to address the core problem.|
|Subject:||You can throw that kind of argument right back at them|
|Date:||Feb 06 13:37|
|say 'The Scientologists tell me the same thing. I was a mormon for X
years, so I know I've given that religion plenty of time. But I haven't given Scientology
a fair shake yet, so perhaps it's me, not Scientology thats' a problem.'
BTW, I detest Scientology, they are just as controlling as mormonism, but it's a good example. Or Jehovah's Witnesses.
|Subject:||It's your fault is such a cop out blanket statement... people like to|
|Date:||Feb 06 16:04|
|cling to their illusions, it's too scary for them to maybe see the truth. It always comes down to that though, when you leave the church... God forbid it might be something with the church, so they always point the accusing finger at the person who wised up about it and left.|
|Subject:||Simply put: they know disbelieving isn't wrong|
|Date:||Feb 06 16:27|
|Do you ever hear people say "That murderer must secretly be a
jaywalker!" or "That adulterer probably doesn't tip very well!"? Of course
And yet, saying "That apostate must be hiding a secret sin!" is no less ridiculous, if you really buy into Mormon theology. There *is no sin* worse than apostasy in the Mormon worldview. Even Hitler can get into the terrestrial kingdom and be happier than anybody is on Earth, yet if you commit the ultimate sin of stopping belief as a Mormon, you run the risk of gnashing your teeth and wailing forever in Outer Darkness!
Now, is that fair? Is concluding that your "testimony" was an emotional reaction and your beliefs were false such a vile, despicable thing to do that it is a greater sin than anything else you could do on this Earth? Of course it isn't, and the Mormons know it as well as you do.
Yet Jehovah apparantly doesn't think so. So how does a good Mormon reconcile the belief that apostates are headed for an eternity of suffering with the fundamental knowledge that, as sins go, apostasy just isn't very bad? They have to invent more sins to accuse the apostate of, to bring his "rap sheet" to the length where the punishment seems to fit the crime!
In other words, the next time someone tells you that your disbelief must be the result of not being able to stay away from coffee or women, don't feel too angry at them. They're simply trying to reconcile the evil Mormon Jehovah who tortures skeptics with the fair God they imagine who only punishes actual intentional misbehaviors.
|Subject:||Selecting facts to fit the theory|
|Date:||Feb 06 18:01|
|As noted by another reply, believing Mormons start with their
desired conclusion (the Church is true), then work backwards, selecting facts that
confirms their belief. Or simply creating them. Of course, any disconfirming facts are
ignored, as firmly directed by Church leaders who don't want anybody reading anything they
don't approve of.
This approach is a great way to minimize cognitive dissonance--it keeps people "at peace" with themselves because they are never confronted with facts or ideas that make them think. As a rule, people hate to think.
Of course, Mormons and the Church have a menu of reasons why people leave the fold. Unfortunately, "figured out the Church is not what it claims to be" is not on the menu, so they pick out some other reason, whether it fits or not.
Ignorance is a self-inflicted condition.
|Subject:||Re: The problem must be with you rather than the church....|
|Date:||Feb 06 18:48|
|OF COURSE TBMs take the attitude that everyone who leaves the church
must be "sinning." That's part of what makes the LDS church a cult. One of the
hallmarks of a cult is that the organization must always be upheld as perfect and
infallible. If there is a conflict, the problem must always be with the thoughts or acts
of members, rather than the organization. If the cult members in general begin to admit to
themselves that the problems are institutional, rather than personal, the emperor's
nakedness is exposed and the cult falls like a house of cards.
That's also why Mormon apologists' first reaction to any negative information published about the church is to attack the messenger, much like Will Bagley, Tom Murphy, and Grant Palmer have all been attacked recently. The Mopologists can't allow any holes in the dyke, so they have to discredit the messengers.