Subject: Help, my wife wants to be baptized!
Date: Dec 13 00:46 2003
Author: Husband of Almost-Mormon
Mail Address:

I have read many of the Mormon short topics and have found them to reinforce my decision not to join this church. However, having never been a member myself (or even close), none seem to address my needs. I post in the hopes of receiving helpful advise from people who know more than me. This is the first time in my 7 years of Internet use that I have posted anything anywhere.

I am a Caucasian born in the US with a Catholic background. My wife is a Taiwanese who has lived in the U.S. for 7 years and has a Chinese Methodist background. We have been married for almost one year. Neither of us attended church regularly when married, as both of us are not terribly fond of our current denominations. We planned to find a Christian church together that we both liked.

About 3 months after we got married, the missionaries dropped by unannounced. I was away, but my wife was fascinated because the missionaries were white people from Utah who spoke very good Chinese. This got them in the door, and that was all the opportunity needed to use the effective sales tactics described elsewhere in this site.

When she first told me of their visits (they always come when I am at work), I doubted I had any interest Mormonism. However, I am an open-minded guy, so I agreed to check it out. After 1-2 services and one "discussion", I was sure this was not for me, and told her so.

Unfortunately, she thinks the church is wonderful and wanted to us to join right away. HER reasons are:

1. She prayed to God, and God told her it is true.
2. Mormons act more virtuous than all other Christians, so they must be the best.
3. Her new belief is responsible for eliminating the nasty pains she normally gets from her monthly visitor.
4. The differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity are trivial technicalities. For Chinese, any Christian religion is alien/strange. Mormonism is no more or less strange for Chinese people.
5. Even if LDS is not perfect, it will help us raise wonderful moral Children in a society where moral values have vastly eroded.


In my opinion, the following reasons are influencing her more (although she denies these)

1. The stake near us is 60% Chinese and is a wonderful social club that bombs her with love and acceptance. The stake is very Chinese friendly to the point that they have headphones in the Chinese service that translate both ways depending on the language of the speaker. While she has other Chinese friends, these are the most virtuous, moral, and friendly Chinese people she has ever met.
2. She can baptize her Buddhist parents after death, while other Christian religions damn them to hell.
3. It fills a big need inside her that is unfulfilled. (I guess that is my failure as a new husband)
4. Every time her faith wanes (like she skips church), the missionaries come. Although she neither calls them nor returns their phone calls, they still catch her. They never get discouraged. If they did not always bother her, she might have drifted away many times.


After this, I started reading this and other sites. Before I thought Mormonism was overly strict but otherwise harmless. Now I am convinced that Mormonism is not only incorrect, but dangerous. At this point, I told her plainly that I NEVER intend to join the LDS church, and asked her not to either.

I have tried the standard arguments (no need to repeat them) and even enlisted the aid of my family and hers. I do not think this helped, I think everyone "ganging up" on her and her new faith made things worse.

I had hoped that my job would be easier than your other posters, as neither of us are Mormons yet. However, the only affect I can have is keeping her from attending the service through other activities, travel, or sleeping-in. Although I can distract her, the missionaries NEVER LET UP and NEVER GIVE UP. They call her until she responds. Since it is hard enough to get rid of them when you try, her indecision about whether to join fuels their drive to convert her!

Now, she is ready to be baptized. While I have taken her several times to a church she thinks is "very nice", it does not fill her heart the way LDS does. She believed this is the true Christian church and not a cult. My wife feels that the "petty" differences between LDS and mainstream are irrelevant. She understands that I am not interested, but thinks I should not interfere with her religion.

I believe that this may the beginning of a problem that can haunt me for many years. After she is baptized, will it be easier or more difficult to get her out? Could this lead us from a good relationship (now) to eventual divorce many years from now?? What can I do? When should I do it? How should I do it? Or should I just but-out of her religious decisions??

I beg the assistance of all readers in my dilemma. Please remember that I am not now or have ever been a Mormon myself, and neither of us has any Mormon background.

Also, does anybody know of a way I, as her husband (and king/ruler) can stop the missionaries from bothering her. If they stopped pushing, this would be much easier for me. Can I use my supposed male dominance as a technicality to order them to stop??

Please post as much advise as possible. Anything directed toward my situation, no matter how lengthy or seemingly irrelevant, will help me greatly.

Thank You,

Husband of Almost-Mormon

Subject: Church will want you & your money.
Date: Dec 13 01:21
Author: Estzerhaus
Mail Address:

I have to wonder if your wife isn't homesick for China. You could try to find other Chinese people who aren't Mormons to befriend.

You need to have a long talk about this, and tell her you are afraid of losing her love. Ask your wife if she thinks they are better than you are.

She will eventually have a broken heart about your unwillingness to join.

See - What The Missionaries Will Not Tell You: http://www.geocities.com/packham33/tract.htm

Subject: Re: Church will want you & your money.
Date: Dec 13 04:23
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

Dear Estzerhaus,

Thank you for your response :)

Yes, she may be a bit homesick, but she does have Chinese friends. Her argument is that most Chinese are not as virtuous and moral as the Mormon Chinese.

I believe the real answer is that other Chinese are normal friends, while the Mormons kiss her a**. They do this love bombing because they want something from her, not because they are her friends.

Just like a drug addiction, this fact (or my opinion) can only be seen from the outside!

As for the church wanting my money, I agree. However, she does not see a problem. In addition to my income being exempt, she plans to lie about her income by deducting ALL expenses first. She thinks the 10% rule is not enforced but voluntary? Do you have any evidence to the contrary??

As for the missionary link, she has already scoured the net and ready almost all anti-Mormon "propaganda". She even showed some to the missionaries, who read but were not able to touch the computer... It seems to either have no effect, or be explained away by the missionaries.

Thanks,

HoAM

P.S. Please check my other responses :)

Subject: To HoAM,
Date: Dec 13 01:36
Author: Bee
Mail Address:

It can be a very individual thing as to what will make someone see Mormonism for what it really is.
For a woman, I would suggest you show her the many sexist remarks made by prophets and authorities. Just search for stuff by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.
Tell her about polygamy, how it is still practiced spiritually, how Brigham taught polygamous marriage is essential for exaltation. Tell her how many wives he had, and how many wives Joseph Smith had. Tell her how young some were (fanny Alger was only 14), and how he deceptively married other members wives after having sent them on missions.
Tell her how she can't get through the veil herself, and can only get through if a righteous husband calls her through.

Let her read about Blood Atonement (also taught by Brigham young). Any believer in Christ will be offended by it.

The church doesn't instill good morals. It instills guilt and fear and co-dependence.

Ask her to explain how Jesus was God before the creation of the earth, how he was the god of the old testament, when he had not yet had a mortal body, married, gone through the temple etc etc as she was told is necessary to become a god in the missionary discussion 'the plan of salvation'.

As a non-Caucasian, inform her of the racist views the church held until as recently as 1978, excluding black people from holding the priesthood. Joseph Smith even sealed his black housemaid to him as a 'servant' in the celestial kingdom! Brigham Young said blacks would NEVER get the priesthood (until Adam returned or something).

Tell her how she will never be able to hold the priesthood, never be able to bless her kids, will always be 'governed' over by a man who does hold the priesthood, how she will not even be permitted to HOLD her babies as the males bless and name them!

And last of all, tell her how hard they make it to get out once you realize you made a mistake in joining. How they shit you around for months and still don't take your name off the rolls.

Number one reason she gave is a hard one to overcome. Many join for that feeling of belonging I think. Let her know that it is fake. They are told it is their member missionary duty to fellowship her. Even the ones who would be actual friends, most would drop you quicksmart if you don't believe the church's doctrines. People are actually assigned to befriend investigators and new members sometimes.

That should do for a start. But you would know best which stuff would get your wife to think most.
There is all the other stuff like the differing first vision accounts, Book of Abraham stuff, Kinderhook plates etc that show problems. Personally, my first big doubt was just after I joined in institute class (young adults study group) when we read about Nephi being told by the spirit to kill a drunken man and steal his property. What ever happened to thou shalt not kill? It depends on whether your wife is a big bible reader and has already come across god telling the tribes to slaughter innocent women and children or not I guess.

I'd try my best to dissuade her now before they get a real good hold of her. But don't cause a rift between you two in your attempts. Let up when she starts getting annoyed, and try and present it in a 'I love you and want you to be FULLY informed before you make such a big decision' way.

Best of luck, Bee

Subject: Re: To HoAM,
Date: Dec 13 01:54
Author: Celb
Mail Address:

Bee wrote:
> It can be a very individual thing as to what will make someone see Mormonism for what it really is.

> For a woman, I would suggest you show her the many sexist remarks made by prophets and authorities. Just search for stuff by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith.

> Tell her about polygamy, how it is still practiced spiritually, how Brigham taught polygamous marriage is essential for exaltation. Tell her how many wives he had, and how many wives Joseph Smith had. Tell her how young some were (fanny Alger was only 14), and how he deceptively married other members wives after having sent them on missions.


Just a little correction here. Fanny Alger was about 16 years old when she married Joseph Smith when he was 27 years old. Fanny Alger is believed to be Joseph Smith's first plural wife. It was Helen Mar Kimball who was only 14 when she married Joseph Smith who was 37 years old. Now that marriage of Joseph Smith to Helen Mar Kimball was very disgusting.


Subject: Re: To HoAM,
Date: Dec 13 04:05
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

Dear Bee,

Thank you for the quick response. However, I have come across most of these already and presented them to her. I must play the LDS apologist here, as I have her/their answers to almost all your arguments. What I need is more ammo, please help.

Regarding polygamy/past sexism/racism until 1978: She says that all this is wrong but in the past. If we judge people on past performance, Catholicism is a religion that murdered Jews, baptized Indians on pain of death, and sold indulgences for cash. My background is Catholic, and my response is that all that is wrong and in the past. Nothing the Mormons did in the 19th century is as bad as what Catholics did in the 16th. I cannot use this effectively.

Regarding current polygamy: LDS says polygamy=excommunication. I have no concrete proof of physical/earthly multiple marriages approved my the LDS church. As for "heavenly" or non-physical polygamy, this may be silly but not evil. The question of a widower having multiple wives in heaven is not easily rectified...

Regarding current sexism: the sexism admitted by the LDS is milder than sexism accepted in Asian culture today. Also, my attempt to control her religion makes my sexism argument backfire.

Regarding "Blood Atonement" and "fear/co-dependence": Please give more detail. I do not understand how to explain these and give proof.

Regarding "God was a man": The missionaries seem to deny this to her or explain it away. Is there a way I can show that they believe it NOW??

Regarding "shitting you around": She says if she wants to quit, she will quit. She thinks if she ever asked the missionaries to go away, they would go. As far as her name on the rolls, she could care less.

Regarding the #1 reason: Remember, the reasons I listed are MY OPINIONS, not her stated reasons. I will clarify this more on the posting. Her reason is that she prayed, and God told her this Church was true. Also, the physical reason (once per month) I mentioned is also her other given reason.

Regarding assigned friends: I completely agree, but could you direct me to any stories about his that I can show her as proof.

Regarding doctrinal differences you listed last: these arguments are powerful for Westerners. Remember, Westerners take the bible for grated. For us, it is hardwired into our brains. Mine too. I accept most Christian principles, but largely because it is cultural "fact" hardwired into my brain.

For Asians, Christianity is a strange story. Getting them to believe at all is difficult, especially since most denominations (LDS is an exception!) condemn their ancestors to HELL! For the Asians that believe regardless, Nephi/Abraham/etc. are all mythical characters who are interchangeable.

I really appreciate your response. This response to you shows what I am up against. Also, I will respond to everyone on this thread, so check out my other responses.

Thank you so much!

HoAM

Subject: Re: To HoAM,
Date: Dec 13 10:59
Author: Asimov
Mail Address:

Regarding polygamy/past sexism/racism until 1978: She says that all this is wrong but in the past.

You can find some of it in the present here, where in canonized scripture Abraham explains how Ham preserved the race of Cain (which Mormon theology still says is the blacks) through the flood and prevented his Egyptian descendants from holding The Priesthood.

Regarding current polygamy: LDS says polygamy=excommunication. I have no concrete proof of physical/earthly multiple marriages approved my the LDS church.

This is correct: the polygamist Mormon groups are not part of the LDS church. They believe the LDS church has become apostate (like the LDS believe Jesus' original churches in the Middle East and America did), and they base their belief on the fact that it's what Brigham Young said would happen: "We have shown that in requiring the relinquishment of polygamy, they ask the renunciation of the entire faith of this people. No sophistry can get out of this. "Mormonism" is true in every leading doctrine, or it is false as a system altogether. ... The childish babble about another revelation is only an evidence of how half informed men can talk."

The LDS church hasn't completely renounced polygamy, of course. They still have one of the original revelations about the "new and everlasting covenant" in canonized scripture. Pay close attention to the part where God supposedly commands Emma to accept all Joseph's adulteries, but tells her if she wants another spouse for herself she'll be destroyed. You might also compare and contrast this section to the Book of Mormon (why can't God keep his story straight about David and Solomon's wives?) or to Joseph Smith's actual behavior (there were a lot more than 10 of them, and he didn't care that many weren't virgins) as well. For bonus points, dig up Joseph Smith's public statements about polygamy and compare them with what the Doctrine and Covenants says about liars.

Regarding "God was a man": The missionaries seem to deny this to her or explain it away. Is there a way I can show that they believe it NOW??

You might try the LDS website which mentions that revelation including the fact that Joseph Smith later confirmed that as true. Any LDS member who doesn't believe it now has merely taken that first important step toward realizing that Smith was just making stuff up.

Of course, there are lots of LDS members who have taken such steps. Before trying to disprove any particular claim, you might want to make sure the person you're talking to still believes it. Even the LDS apologists don't believe the "Lamanites and Nephites filled the continent", "Earth is 6000 years old", "Noah was in a worldwide flood", "these Facsimiles are pictures from the Book of Abraham", etc. BS anymore, although there hasn't been any effort toward removing it all from canonized scripture, and the LDS "prophets, seers, and revelators" haven't caught up to the LDS scientists yet.

Subject: There is a BY quote that should really turn her off...
Date: Dec 13 02:13
Author: Sympathetic
Mail Address:

but I can't remember where it is, or the reference for it.
Someone will surely know where you can find the demeaning statement by BY about Chinese women. It was so patronizing, it was pitiful. He made them seem less than human. I think I saw it as part of a hateful speech given by Boyd K Packer. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

Subject: Re: There is a BY quote that should really turn her off...
Date: Dec 13 04:25
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

This would be very useful. Somebody please find it and advise the reference (hopefully something that I can verify outside the "anti-Mormon" world.

Subject: Here is a quote by Mark E. Peterson
Date: Dec 13 10:54
Author: Helen
Mail Address:

Mormon Apostle Mark E. Peterson said:

"Is there a reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre-existent life? Can we account in any other way for the birth of the children of God in darkest Africa, or in flood-ridden China, or among the starving hordes of India, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter-day Saints. These are rewards and punishments, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with sinners and saints, rewarding all according to their deeds."

Address by Mark E. Peterson at the Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954

Subject: Mormonism can break up your marriage
Date: Dec 13 03:04
Author: donna
Mail Address:

Since you have no desire to join, your wife will be made to feel like a 2nd class citizen (among 2nd class citizens) after she joins. She'll have to go to the temple by herself. The church really wants you (the husband), and is using your wife to get to you.

It sounds like there is a large Chinese population where you live. There are probably other places where they meet and socialize. THE LDS CHURCH IS NOT A SOCIAL CLUB!! They are using a bait & switch tactic on her. Please emphasis my point in bold letters. This is not a church where you go on Christmas & Easter and but a $10 bill in the collection plate.

The lds church is like a pedophile who befriends a single mom with kids.

Subject: Re: Mormonism can break up your marriage
Date: Dec 13 04:34
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

Dear Donna,

Thank you for your response. Yes, I do live in the 626 area code of Los Angeles. If you drive around my city, you see as much Chinese and Korean as you do English and Spanish (the two official languages in LA)

Of course, the missionaries tell her that I will eventually convert and it is only a matter of time and patience. Any advise on how to convince her (or them) otherwise.

Given that LDS is a male dominated religion, can I forbid her to join? Or am I not the leader (king) of the family unless I am Mormon also??

She claims she does not want to be baptized because she likes the social atmosphere. This is MY OPINION only.

Regarding her being a double second class citizen, can you give me something with which I can back up the assertion. I need to be able to explain and prove this.

I admit your assertion that the Mormon church is like a pedophile has convinced ME. However, I was already convinced. How can I convince her?

Help...

HoAM

Subject: Can you forbid her to join?
Date: Dec 13 09:55
Author: dig
Mail Address:

Given that LDS is a male dominated religion, can I forbid her to join? Or am I not the leader (king) of the family unless I am Mormon also??

When I was a missionary I believe it was policy to ask the spouse if he/she supported the baptism. If the spouse was strongly against the baptism, the baptism would often be postponed until the couple could work out the differences. (This is a respectable way of doing things, in my opinion)

I do not know if this has changed and if she really wants to join it might cause even more marital problems if you "forbid" her.

On a side note, your description of how Asians generally view Christianity is close to my experience. I think that if she does join she will soon find that all the callings (appointed positions in the church) and functions are very time-consuming. She has already indicated that she is not a true-believer (her ideas on tithing show this) so there is a good chance that she will just eventually stop attending.

Of course, there is also the possibility that it will change her life forever and you (separately and as a couple) will be forced to deal with those changes. I have encountered very few marriages that survive while one person is Mormon and the other is not.

I have also encountered very few converts that can continue to be a "weekend Mormon." Eventually, they become true-believers or they leave altogether.

Some people find happiness in the religion but the question is: at what cost? If your wife has an active social life this will eventually migrate to an active Church social life. Not to mention the tithing and time spent fulfilling callings.

Subject: It sounds like the social component is really what's attracting her
Date: Dec 13 03:04
Author: chanson
Mail Address:

I think Estzerhaus is really on the right track by suggesting that you look for other Chinese social clubs. I would especially recommend that you try to find a mainstream Christian church that has a Chinese congregation (or at least has a lot of Chinese members). There is almost certainly one in your area. Try to make a deal with her to postpone getting baptized Mormon until after she has at least tried getting involved in one or two mainstream churches. Be sure that that includes participating in some of their social programs in addition to the regular service.

You may want to talk about the racist/sexist aspects of Mormonism, but it sounds like you've already tried to reason with her on doctrinal matters and it hasn't worked. Continuing to harp on the negative points of Mormonism may backfire. I really think your best course of action would be to make a strong effort to find another religious/social organization that she will like better.

Subject: Re: It sounds like the social component is really what's attracting her
Date: Dec 13 04:46
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

Dear Chanson,

The Mormon Church here is extremely Chinese friendly. They have all 3 services in both Chinese in English. We can be together for half and separate for half. In the service with communion, they have headphones that translate both ways depending on the language of the speaker. No other church does this!

I have tried to find a mainstream Chinese church which mimics the extensive Chinese support there is at LDS. The problem is, most Chinese Christian churches are fanatical and fundamentalist.

The concept that billions of Chinese are in hell because they were not lucky enough to be born in the west is abhorrent even to me (let alone her)

All fundamentalist Chinese churches believe this. On this one point, I would be become a Mormon before accepting the principles of fundamentalist Christianity.

Luckily, all Christian denominations do not take this position. But, because of reasons I wrote in my reply to Bee, almost all Chinese Christian churches do.

I invite any response and thank you for your time.

HoAM

Subject: That is very unfortunate
Date: Dec 13 07:35
Author: chanson

Perhaps you could help her find some non-religious organization to join. I get the impression that if only she could get involved in some sort of community where she would find a circle of Chinese friends, then she would be less interested in Mormonism.

Subject: Re: Help, my wife wants to be baptized!
Date: Dec 13 04:49
Author: fruit
Mail Address:

Tell her the truth should not be contradictory. Look at LDS theology. On the one hand, the Book of Mormon presents a theology fairly close to orthodox Christianity (minus a few difference.) On the other hand, LDS theology contradicts it in the nature of God, etc.

A good site on this that I recommend showing her is:

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/mormcont.html

It clearly shows the contradictions in LDS theology with their own Book of Mormon. If the Book of Mormon is true, the LDS church isn't because it blatantly contradicts the Book of Mormon.

Also, have her read the "To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism" tract on the Exmormon.org front page.

Subject: Re: Help, my wife wants to be baptized!
Date: Dec 13 05:37
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

Dear fruit,

Thank you for your response.

I cannot get very far with doctrinal differences, as they seem to be technicalities. I know you may violently disagree, but first let me repeat from my response to Bee:

>>> These arguments are powerful for Westerners. Remember, Westerners take the bible for granted. For us, it is hardwired into our brains. Mine too. I accept most Christian principles, but largely because it is cultural "fact" hardwired into my brain.


>>> For Asians, Christianity is a strange story. Getting them to believe at all is difficult, especially since most denominations (LDS is an exception!) condemn their ancestors to HELL! For the Asians that believe regardless, Nephi/Abraham/etc. are all mythical characters who are interchangeable.


For people who are not hardwired Western Christians (like me), even a central concept such as the trinity is not absolutely necessary. Why cant Jesus be separate, it makes sense...

I need something big, with concrete proof that can be verified outside the anti-Mormon propaganda sites. I need proof that they STILL believe we can become God. I need proof that they STILL believe God was once a man just like me. The missionaries deny these assertions quote successfully.

Also, she has read "To Those Who Are Investigating Mormonism" and most other easily available anti-Mormon info. She is not a submissive/blind follower as you might suspect. She did research and even showed it to the missionaries (who read but could not touch the computer).

If my wife were a submissive little Asian woman, I could simply "command" her to stop with such foolishness... She has read the contrary opinions. However, since most deal with minute (in her opinion) doctrinal differences, they had little effect and were easily explained away.

Please advise your thoughts. I appreciate any help.

HoAM

Subject: Some thoughts...(edited).
Date: Dec 13 04:54
Author: Pericles
Mail Address:

Husband of Almost-Mormon wrote:

> About 3 months after we got married, the missionaries dropped by unannounced. I was away, but my wife was fascinated because the missionaries were white people from Utah who spoke very good Chinese. This got them in the door, and that was all the opportunity needed to use the effective sales tactics described elsewhere in this site.



> 1. The stake near us is 60% Chinese and is a wonderful social club that bombs her with love and acceptance.


As has been noted elsewhere, the LDS Church is not a social club; once your wife is a member they will want her to make additional commitments (read: receiving her own endowments so that she can wear ugly as hell religious underclothing).

> 2. Mormons act virtuous like all Christians should, so they must be right.


Please point out to her that many other churches, not just Christian, also emphasize good ethics and morals; this is simply not something that is unique to the Mormon Church.

> 3. She can baptize her Buddhist parents after death, while other Christian religions damn them to hell.


Here is a pet peeve of mine...explain to her that this is identity theft and that the only real difference is that the theft is of a dead person's name. LDS Inc., desperate as ever for new names to keep the Mormon faithful busy, has even baptized Jewish victims of the Holocaust, i.e. a people that was persecuted (in ways that the LDS can only fantasize about) and then systematically murdered.

Oh, and by the way, the Catholic Church, representing perhaps the greatest single block of those that identify themselves as Christian, does not damn those without baptism to hell.

> 4. It fills a big need inside her that is unfulfilled. (cult-like fulfillment?)


A lot of things can fill a void in one's life...that does not necessarily make them TRUE.


> 5. The differences between Mormonism and Christianity are trivial technicalities. For Chinese, any Christian religion is alien/strange. Mormonism is no more or less strange for Chinese people.


That is simply not the case. Take Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith Jr. and his heretical religious ideas out of the LDS Church and you have very little left. I still remember, not more than 10 years ago, when I attended the LDS Church service on Easter Sunday...not a word about Christ - it was all about Joseph Smith!


> 6. She believes her new belief to be directly responsible for eliminating the nasty pains she normally gets from her monthly visitor. (her testimony??)


Coincidence...


> 7. Even if LDS is not perfect, it will help us raise wonderful moral Children in a society where moral values have vastly eroded.


Search about...there are still plenty of churches where you can accomplish this same objective, and without the controlling, cult-like aspects connected with the LDS Church.


> After this, I started reading this and other sites. Before I thought Mormonism was overly strict but otherwise harmless. Now I am convinced that Mormonism is not only incorrect, but dangerous. At this point, I told her plainly that I NEVER intend to join the LDS church, and asked her not to either.


I would not classify the LDS Church as dangerous (then again, I was once a member...so...well, your mileage may vary), but I would say that it can act at times, critical times in the life of a family, exactly like a cult. For example, should your wife get baptized and then go thru the temple, and then raise your children LDS, when they get married, you will be excluded.


> I have tried the standard arguments (no need to repeat them) and even enlisted the aid of my family and hers. I do not think this helped, I think everyone "ganging up" on her and her new faith made things worse.


Yes, don't gang up as that will only feed the false sense of persecution she has been taught to believe is Satan. However, don't let this prevent you from taking and holding a firm stand.


> I had hoped that my job would be easier than your other posters, as neither of us are Mormons yet. However, the only affect I can have is keeping her from attending the service through other activities, travel, or sleeping-in. Although I can distract her, the missionaries NEVER LET UP and NEVER GIVE UP. They call her until she responds. Since it is hard enough to get rid of them when you try, her indecision about whether to join fuels their drive to convert her!


Here is where you can take decisive action. Be present the next time the LDS missionaries show up. Sit them down and kindly yet firmly explain to them that you deeply resent their continued missionary efforts directed towards you spouse. Tell them that in the times that we live information is readily available on any number of subjects, including Mormonism. Tell them you have done some checking on Mormonism and what you found made you not want to be apart of it. Now, at this point, they will come back at you about opposition and persecution of the LDS Church. Trust me, they would not know real persecution if it came up and said "boo" to them.

Tell them, please, do not be the source of so much marital discord...remind them of LDS teachings on the family...and leave us alone until we contact you.

> Now, she is ready to be baptized. While I have taken her several times to a church she thinks is "very nice", it does not fill her heart the way LDS does. She believed this is the true Christian church and not a cult. My wife feels that the "petty" differences between LDS and mainstream are irrelevant. She understands that I am not interested, but thinks I should not interfere with her religion.


Well, make it clear that this will be a source of division in the marriage and that is not uncommon for LDS marriages to end when a spouse leaves the Mormon Church.

> I believe that this may the beginning of a problem that can haunt me for many years. After she is baptized, will it be easier or more difficult to get her out? Could this lead us from a good relationship (now) to eventual divorce many years from now?? What can I do? When should I do it? How should I do it? Or should I just but-out of her religious decisions??


More difficult...trust me.


> I beg the assistance of all readers in my dilemma. Please remember that I am not now or have ever been a Mormon myself, and neither of us has any Mormon background.

>

> Please post as much advise as possible. Anything directed toward my situation, no matter how lengthy or seemingly irrelevant, will help me greatly.

>

> Thank You,

>

> Husband of Almost-Mormon


You are quite welcome...

Pericles

Subject: Re: Some thoughts...(edited).
Date: Dec 13 06:29
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

Dear Pericles,

I really, really like your response. I will return a point by point, but I quoted only what I needed to make the point.

First of all, please reread my original post. I corrected the part about the reasons. Some are her reasons, some are mine. My original post did not clarify this, so everyone assumes that she is joining because of the "social club" aspect. She actually denies that completely.

> Please point out to her that many other churches, not just Christian, also emphasize good ethics and morals; this is simply not something that is unique to the Mormon Church.


I did. She just thinks the Mormons are the best (most virtuous), so they must be the true church.


> Oh, and by the way, the Catholic Church, representing perhaps the greatest single block of those that identify themselves as Christian, does not damn those without baptism to hell.


My background is Catholic. I know and approve of this. I actually find the fundamentalist view of hell/damnation so repugnant, I would be a Mormon long before I would believe fundamentalist Christianity. Sadly, most Chinese Christians are fundamentalist, removing these as options for social interaction.


> Alot of things can fill a void in one's life...that does not necessarily make them TRUE.


Of course, but it makes her feel good now. Try telling the drug addict that drugs are bad. Good luck,


> That is simply not the case. Take Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith Jr. and his heretical religious ideas out of the LDS Church and you have very little left. I still remember, not more than 10 years ago, when I attended the LDS Church service on Easter Sunday...not a word about Christ - it was all about Joseph Smith!


This is the past! If I complain about the past beliefs of Mormons, I am confronted with the inquisition, forced baptism on pain of death, and indulgences. Anything Joseph Smith said or did pales by comparison.


> Coincidence...


Maybe coincidence, maybe self-fulfilling prophesy, maybe mind over matter, maybe God's reward for faith (even if misplaced) You have convinced ME, but how do I convince her.


> Search about...there are still plenty of churches where you can accomplish this same objective, and without the controlling, cult-like aspects connected with the LDS Church.


I agree, but can you provide proof that will convince her of the controlling, cult-like aspects...


> I would not classify the LDS Church as dangerous (then again, I was once a member...so...well, your mileage may vary), but I would say that it can act at times, critical times in the life of a family, exactly like a cult.



A wolf or snake is not dangerous when it is in the forest living among the wildlife. But if it comes inside your home and threatens your family, your opinion may suddenly change.

I thought Mormons were wonderful family-oriented people when they live peaceful lives in Utah. I would have no problem being friends with Mormon people. But, when they came uninvited to my home on a quest to destroy my family (so much for family first), my opinion suddenly changed.


> For example, should your wife get baptized and then go thru the temple, and then raise your children LDS, when they get married, you will be excluded.


I will abandon my plans to have children while she is a member of the LDS church. While I want children, I believe the resulting conflict is not what a child deserves. If this means never having children, so be it.


As for the rest of your reply, this is the most detailed and useful advise I have yet received. Thank You. I want to find some way to stop the missionaries. I was wondering if, being the head of the household, I can instruct them not to bother my wife.

Will they listen, or is this family stuff really B.S. when it does not serve their purpose?? I have no problem convincing them that I want them to leave. While your polite reasoning would have been helpful at the beginning, I do not need to save feelings anymore. After 6 months I am somewhat perturbed by their persistence. I would even relish taking them up on the toilet cleaning offer and then asking them to leave (just to convince them that nothing will influence my decision). Their opposing arguments would have to be offered from beyond my property line and through my closed and locked front door.

However, my wife refuses to be rude to them. She may just meet them elsewhere. If they respond gracefully, that may make me look bad and them look good.

Will the missionaries even care about their actions causing marital discord. Is there a technicality somewhere in LDS rules I can use to stop them? Can I report (or threaten to report) them to the bishop?

Or is that strategy useless because any non-Mormon marriage is garbage in their eyes??


I do not reply to criticize everyone who is trying to help me. I am only giving the results to the suggestion that have already been tried. Again, thanks and I appreciate any advise (preferably helpful)

HoAM

Subject: Re: Some thoughts...(edited).
Date: Dec 13 08:00
Author: Melanie

Your best friend in this case may be time. Ask her if she would be willing to give you some time, as her husband who desperately loves her, to pray about this so that you can at least have peace about it. Tell her that you do NOT ever intend to join the church, but you are asking her to wait (say 3 months or until a big day in your future like an anniversary or something) before she finally gets baptized. Ask that, in this time, if the missionaries come over that they only come over when you are there because having them come over when you are gone makes you feel like they are hiding something from you and trying to steal your wife away from you. Meet with the missionaries, ask them questions (and don't let them rope you into the "first tell us what you believe" trap). If they leave you with something you are unsure about, make another appointment (sounds like they are more than willing to return) and get on the boards. People here will be more than happy to help you.

The point I hope you would make to her with such a plan is that you want to keep your marriage together. There is no way to have a peaceful, unified marriage if she is meeting with two men behind your back and getting baptized into an organization that you do not understand over your objections. I'm not saying that she has to have your permission to be baptized. But as her husband, you would be crazy to not want to know what your wife is getting into. Ask her to give you this time. That will get her past the emotions that come at the onset of such things and she may not have such a fervent interest in baptism. After a couple of months she is likely to have a couple of rotten periods which blows that out of the water. It will also give her time to see that Mormons are just people, like everyone else, and are no more virtuous than the other people in her life. She may still join, but at least she will have shown respect for your marriage in doing so and the two of you will know that you can work together on this.

Subject: Great approach Melanie! You worded that so well...impressive! n/t
Subject: I think Melanie has great ideas.
Date: Dec 13 10:32
Author: melissa

I think you can legitimately contact the missionaries or their president and tell them you don't want them to visit your wife in your absence. I don't think they are going to accept not contacting her at all and maybe they are right about that, since it's her life.

It's a great idea to be willing to listen to them WITH HER and present to them your research and reservations about the church. How is she going to feel about your plural wives in the afterlife--has somebody already mentioned that? Nevermind. That's a small one. If she sees your sincerity and research and love and still chooses their sincerity and research and love, you're in for a ride. But I bet you still win. Yours is real and theirs is fake.

I feel for your situation.

Subject: More ideas...
Date: Dec 13 08:30
Author: Pericles
Mail Address:

Dear HoAM,

I hope I can clarify my answers and possibly give you some additional ideas here...

HoAM wrote:
> Dear Pericles,

>

> I really, really like your response. I will return a point by point, but I quoted only what I needed to make the point.

>

> First of all, please reread my original post. I corrected the part about the reasons. Some are her reasons, some are mine. My original post did not clarify this, so everyone assumes that she is joining because of the "social club" aspect. She actually denies that completely.


Ok, I understand...thanks for making this clear.


> > Please point out to her that many other churches, not just Christian, also emphasize good ethics and morals; this is simply not something that is unique to the Mormon Church.

> I did. She just thinks the mormons are the best (most virtuous), so they must be the true church.


Well then, she needs to get out more and mingle more freely with serious people of faith. I don't mean this as a slam at all, it is just that I remember what I heard a religiously observant Jewish talk radio host (Dennis Prager) once said on this topic, something like, "nothing transforms a person's own religious convictions than to observe equally good or better people in other faith traditions". The irony is that my TBM wife listens to him on the radio, and still has not made the connection that he was instrumental in me leaving the LDS faith.


> > Oh, and by the way, the Catholic Church, representing perhaps the greatest single block of those that identify themselves as Christian, does not damn those without baptism to hell.

>

> My background is Catholic. I know and approve of this. I actually find the fundamentalist view of hell/damnation so repugnant, I would be a Mormon long before I would believe fundamentalist Christianity. Sadly, most Chinese Christians are fundamentalist, removing these as options for social interaction.


So is mine, though I came into the Catholic Church just this last April.


> > A lot of things can fill a void in one's life...that does not necessarily make them TRUE.

>

> Of course, but it makes her feel good now. Try telling the drug addict that drugs are bad. Good luck,


This is the dangerous side of Mormonism...the irrational hold it can establish over the hearts and minds of even quite intelligent people.


> > That is simply not the case. Take Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith Jr. and his heretical religious ideas out of the LDS Church and you have very little left. I still remember, not more than 10 years ago, when I attended the LDS Church service on Easter Sunday...not a word about Christ - it was all about Joseph Smith!

>

> This is the past! If I complain about the past beliefs of Mormons, I am confronted with the inquisition, forced baptism on pain of death, and indulgences. Anything Joseph Smith said or did pales by comparison.


Here is a book you might want to take a look at,
Christianity on Trial: Arguments Against Anti-Religious Bigotry, written by Vincent Carroll and David Shiflett. It goes thru many of the most common arguments against Christianity in general, a la the Inquisition, etc. and it either explains, puts them in context or it debunks them. Well written and easy to read.

The bottom line here? The Catholic Church has more skeletons in its closet because it has been around a little bit longer than LDS Inc.


> > Coincidence...

>

> Maybe coincidence, maybe self-fulfilling prophesy, maybe mind over matter, maybe God's reward for faith (even if misplaced) You have convinced ME, but how do I convince her.


And therein is the rub...hey, if you figure it out, give me a hand so I can break my wife away from the LDS Church.


> > Search about...there are still plenty of churches where you can accomplish this same objective, and without the controlling, cult-like aspects connected with the LDS Church.

>

> I agree, but can you provide proof that will convince her of the controlling, cult-like aspects...


Have her read an essay found here,
http://www.lds4u.com/d4/weddings.htm
I happen to know this person quite well, and he can help you as well. I know he helped me.


> > I would not classify the LDS Church as dangerous (then again, I was once a member...so...well, your mileage may vary), but I would say that it can act at times, critical times in the life of a family, exactly like a cult.

>

>

> A wolf or snake is not dangerous when it is in the forest living among the wildlife. But if it comes inside your home and threatens your family, your opinion may suddenly change.

>

> I thought Mormons were wonderful family-oriented people when they live peaceful lives in Utah. I would have no problem being friends with Mormon people. But, when they came uninvited to my home on a quest to destroy my family (so much for family first), my opinion suddenly changed.


Explain it this way to them...


> > For example, should your wife get baptized and then go thru the temple, and then raise your children LDS, when they get married, you will be excluded.

>

> I will abandon my plans to have children while she is a member of the LDS church. While I want children, I believe the resulting conflict is not what a child deserves. If this means never having children, so be it.


Well, I am living proof that an LDS Church member can not only request that their name be removed, but then go off and convert to another religion. If this is indeed your sentiment then I believe your wife has a right to know how you feel.


> As for the rest of your reply, this is the most detailed and useful advise I have yet received. Thank You. I want to find some way to stop the missionaries. I was wondering if, being the head of the household, I can instruct them not to bother my wife.


You could...but they will probably be back. Might I suggest this? Find out where the Mission Home is for these missionaries...address and telephone number...and the name of their Mission President. Then call him up, and address him as "President So and So". I understand that since you do not recognize his authority, you may very well feel quite uncomfortable doing that. However, what you are about to do is appeal to his mind and heart and you want him to think you respect his position. Then you drop the other shoe...ask him to kindly call off the missionaries that are contacting your wife and respect your position and authority. Describe in as respectful yet firm way your objections, and how the continued persistence of the missionaries is driving a wedge between you and your wife. Even bring up the fact that you are aware of the strong family orientation of the LDS Church (Families can be together Forever, blah, blah, blah...), LDS Church teachings with regards to the family (here you can bring up The Proclamation on the Family, which can be found here,

http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,1458-1,00.html

and in this way you can prove enough familiarity with LDS Church teachings to attempt to convince the Mission President that you know sufficiently what the LDS believe).
Oh, and by the way, do not tell your wife about this meeting, as you will want to know if this Mission President can keep a confidence (oh, and make sure that he understands that you EXPECT that your request for privacy will be honored; this is a way of smoking him out...either he will be a man of his word, or you will know that you have a jerk on your hands).


> Will they listen, or is this family stuff really B.S. when it does not serve their purpose?? I have no problem convincing them that I want them to leave. While your polite reasoning would have been helpful at the beginning, I do not need to save feelings anymore. After 6 months I am somewhat perturbed by their persistence. I would even relish taking them up on the toilet cleaning offer and then asking them to leave (just to convince them that nothing will influence my decision). Their opposing arguments would have to be offered from beyond my property line and through my closed and locked front door.


Then now is the time to be resolute and firm; try the MP first though, because he can call in those missionaries and explain to them, "hey, this guy is serious...stop visiting his wife at once".

Now if your visit with the MP does not seem to produce the change you desire, then a follow-up visit will be in order. The threat of a short and to the point letter to your local police indicating that they keep coming back and that you consider such behavior to be harassment. Mention something about a letter to the editor of your local paper. And even a sign on the door...

Of course, all of this assumes at least partial cooperation on the part of your wife. And here again is the rub...


> However, my wife refuses to be rude to them. She may just meet them elsewhere. If they respond gracefully, that may make me look bad and them look good.


Well, and if she does then at least you have made it difficult to meet with her.


> Will the missionaries even care about their actions causing marital discord. Is there a technicality somewhere in LDS rules I can use to stop them? Can I report (or threaten to report) them to the bishop?


First go to their Mission President (MP), as he will be the one with the power and authority to make these visits stop. Now, should your wife go off and get baptized, then you will have to deal with the LDS Bishop.


> Or is that strategy useless because any non-Mormon marriage is garbage in their eyes??


I would not use that term...I would say that they view all other marriages as second rate, since they have no promise of eternity (though the promise of any institution is only as good as it's truth claims...).


> I do not reply to criticize everyone who is trying to help me. I am only giving the results to the suggestion that have already been tried. Again, thanks and I appreciate any advise (preferably helpful)


I understand...you want to keep what you view as a menace at bay and away. Maybe that fellow that wrote that essay can give you a few ideas in addition to my own...


> HoAM


Best wishes,

Pericles

Subject: Sounds bad, BUT
Date: Dec 13 05:09
Author: Anon
Mail Address:

most converts drop out within a short period of time, anyway. Her getting baptized may not be the end of the world.

Subject: Re: Sounds bad, BUT
Date: Dec 13 05:17
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

Dear Anon,

Yes, this is my ray of hope :). As long as I make my opposition clear, I cannot be accused of misleading her in any way.

I think there is a 90%+ chance she will get bored without any discouragement from me (except for my non-participation).

However, it is the 10% chance I am worried about most.

HoAM

Subject: Re: Help, my wife wants to be baptized!
Date: Dec 13 08:11
Author: Claire
Mail Address:

What you are describing is EXACTLY what happened to us 30 years ago! I came from a foreign country (Germany) and like your wife I was love-bombed into joining. Eventually my husband joined too, under pressure from me. This church almost ruined our marriage and our lives! I finally insisted we get out because I saw the problems the church caused. BEWARE!!! Stop trying to be the nice guy, what you need to do is drastic: Forbid the missionaries to ever come around again, tell your wife she needs to choose between you and the church NOW.You'd better put your foot down now or the church will be in your bed forever, this will only get worse especially if you start having kids. Your wife does NOT totally understand what she is doing to herself and to you.

Subject: The approach is a tad harsh for me...but, hey, if it works, then DO IT! n/t

Subject: Your question about tithing (and the temple)
Date: Dec 13 09:40
Author: dig
Mail Address:


As for the church wanting my money, I agree. However, she does not see a problem. In addition to my income being exempt, she plans to lie about her income by deducting ALL expenses first. She thinks the 10% rule is not enforced but voluntary? Do you have any evidence to the contrary??


First of all, they will come after you next. Many women on this board can tell you about how they were pushed in one way or another to convert their husband (or vice versa). Interestingly, this is the same reason tithing is "required" (see below).

Theoretically, tithing is voluntary. Theoretically, tithing can be net, not gross, etc. Practically, this changes dramatically.

Baptism is the first step. Going to the temple is required in order to "make it to heaven," at least, the highest level of heaven. To get into the temple you MUST be a full tithe payer. Depending on who the bishop is, your wife will be asked in her interview if she is a full tithe payer. If the bishop has reason to believe she is not paying tithe on ALL her income, he will ask more questions -- very probing questions. If she admits that she is not a really a full tithe payer he will deny her temple recommend, which keeps her from going to the Celestial Kingdom. If she does not admit this, she will need to be strong enough to avoid feeling guilty about lying to God (this is how they will phrase it in church).

Also;

You mentioned that your wife likes the fact that her parents can be baptized. They can also have their temple work done. But they must accept this work and in order for her to have this "eternal family" that the Mormons talk about, she MUST go to the temple. In fact you must go to the temple, too. If you do not, she will be married to another person in the afterlife. If you do not become Mormon in this life or the next, Mormon doctrine says that she will become a wife of another worthy man. Most likely, a polygamous wife.

(When I was younger I remember being taught that women who did not marry in the temple in this life could not make it to the highest level of the Celestial kingdom. However, this doctrine seems to have changed.)

So, because of this temple marriage thing and the Mormon never-ending quest for more members, you will be next. They will target you constantly. Your wife will feel guilty at church because she is married to a non-member. They will have discussions about you behind your back -- how they can convert you, what they need to do to fellowship you, discussing your "anti-Mormon" behavior, discussing their "worry" for your wife because she is married to a non-member, etc. I guarantee this will happen because I used to be the one talking behind people's backs. Many people on this board used to do the same thing.

I hope this answers your temple question!

Subject: Re: Your question about tithing (and the temple)
Date: Dec 13 09:57
Author: Claire
Mail Address:

And don't forget, you will be required to wear ugly underwear from the 1800's day and night ! Your wife is just a babe in the woods with this church. Be forewarned.

Subject: Does anyone have a link to a the missionary discussions?
Date: Dec 13 10:13
Author: dig
Mail Address:

HoAM could probably benefit from reading the actual discussions that the missionaries use.

The missionaries are instructed to find a common ground and then build off of that. In the Mormon church this is explained as "Milk before meat," that is, give the investigator something easy to swallow (milk) before getting into the more complicated issues (meat).

The missionaries will also use tactics such as asking what you think about something and then modifying your response to support their beliefs, etc. If you do have a discussion with them I think it would be very beneficial to learn the tactics that they are taught to use.

Subject: Re: It's a screwy cult, tell her to stay clear of it
Date: Dec 13 10:36
Author: Jeff
Mail Address:

You know I've been around Mormonism all my life and I can tell you it is absolutely not inspired of any God. I've seen the way it destroys families first hand. They don't really care about individuals, it's a big cult. They only act like they care now so they can suck her into it with them.

I was born into it. I grew up in it. My reasons for leaving it didn't have anything to do with doctrine or history, although now I can see it has a lot of problems with that as well. It's an abusive emotionally manipulative controlling cult. It brainwashes people. It takes away their time from families by always being so busy doing church callings. That cult just sucks the life right out of people turning them into obedient depressed drones. If its not church callings then its guilt trips over not being perfect, not praying enough, not reading the scriptures enough. They believe that they can actually become perfect and turn into Gods. That's blasphemy to most real Christian religions isn't it? They expect you to pray before every meal, before you go to bed, often before you have sex, when you wake up in the morning. They make the members believe they are being watched constantly by spirits. You have to read their scriptures every day. You can only watch certain movies and listen to music they approve of. If there's anything that seems 'worldly' to them they don't like it. Swearing is forbidden. Sexuality, except for procreation, is treated like a curse and unnatural. You can't drink any alcohol, or coffee, or tea. This is stuff most normal people wouldn't even give a second thought to. Cup of tea, what's the big deal with that? Yeah but they act like you're going to go to hell because of drinking a cup of tea. And forget about masturbation, that's totally forbidden. Plus you have to wear this special large white underwear that only they sell. Pay, pray, and obey, that's all they care about.

It's a very weird evil cult, with a lot of money behind it and a public relations firm. It looks innocent enough. But it's a wolf in sheep's clothing. It's a big impersonal business corporation with no real morals whatsoever. I wouldn't call it a church. If you've been around it as long as I have, which is over 30 years, you being to wonder if their leaders really are possessed by Satan or something. Once you're in it they act like they own you.

Subject: My suggestion might be a little extreme, but I think it would work.
Date: Dec 13 11:11
Author: cougguy
Mail Address:

I think you ought to end run your wife with the missionaries. I would just go a little "mental" with the missionaries, when your wife isn't there. Tell them you don't appreciate them bringing their f*c&ing cult into your home and they better stay the f*&k away from you and your wife if they know what's good for them. Make sure to include the swear words, because nothing scares a Mormon off like the f-word. Now, this will probably cause problems with you and your wife, but I think they would be much more insignificant than the problems that the Mormon Church would cause you over a life time. If my grandfather had simply done what I'm telling you to do, it would have saved my family three generations worth of heartache. I think a situation such as this calls for extreme measures, because the potential harm this cult can bring into your home is extreme. Stop it now, while you have a chance!

Subject: RACISM
Date: Dec 13 20:12
Author: Nightingale
Mail Address:

Omigosh, why didn't we think of this before? The Mormon church is RACIST.

Perhaps this would be a deal-breaker for your wife?

Subject: It's a good point, however.......
Date: Dec 13 20:51
Author: ScottySoprano

considering the fact that Xianity itself is a foreign religion, the racist tendencies of the Morg are pale in comparison to the murders, and atrocities of the bible god, and the early Xian church. The early xians were racist as well. I am not trying to throw down your idea, but if I were living in China, and studying Xianity the Morg racism would be nothing special. Also, they never disallowed Asian races from having the priesthood, just blacks. I suppose you can count on one hand, the number of blacks in China? I would go for a more logical approach. Fellowship is one reason why religion prospers really, and it's a hard wall to break through.

Subject: Fair enough
Date: Dec 13 21:01
Author: Nightingale
Mail Address:

You do make a good point. I acknowledge I have a Christian bias that affects my worldview.

I'm not intending to favor Christianity over Mormonism in my comments to HoAM, although in my haste (I'm posting in a rush) it could appear that way. I'm only focusing on that as he has stated that both he and his wife are looking for a Christian church.

I would avoid joining any organization that was racist, whether it affected me personally or not (which I admit would be hard as I am Caucasian), so I was projecting that onto his wife, I guess, in that I thought just on principle she wouldn't join a racist church.

You may be interested to read a post by "Sympathetic" directed to HoAM (another thread) that refers directly to Chinese people and the fact that they must not have measured up in the pre-existence to be born Chinese. Incredible!

Subject: I've never heard that the church thought that the Chinese were sub-valiant......
Date: Dec 13 21:10
Author: ScottySoprano

and would be interesting news. It's just so rare, that I ever read the story of a person who was NOT a xian joining, or looking into the church. Never did on my mission, that is for sure. But trying to look at it from a non-xian point of view I think is something that is difficult, as you say, because of the xian background in this country. After reading the post regarding the Asian races, (in Hong Kong I believe) that they are highly sensitive to interracial marriages to other races. I think the racist stand may or may not be effective. I guess I would not be one to ask anyway! But of course in this country, with political correctness so prevalent, it has a greater impact. I don't remember if HoAM is living here or in china? But in my book, racial prej. is definitely one of my biggest beefs with the morg. I married a black woman, (divorced now though) and after reading the quote about me as a white guy should be put to death for doing so by BY, I about lost it!
I didn't want to come across as flaming your post, so hope you didn't get that impression.

Subject: Scotty
Date: Dec 13 21:27
Author: Nightingale
Mail Address:

No you didn't come across as flaming at all. I really appreciate discussions like these, where we can take a look at different topics and also examine and re-evaluate our own opinions. I really like it when someone points out something I never thought of before. Also, I'm often surprised by seeing myself making assumptions based on my limited worldview, when I'm not even aware of it. A yawning trap, to be sure!

I was surprised by that quote too. Sometimes I wonder how much you can fault the Mormon church, or any church, for actions and words of its leaders, especially past ones. The thing about the Mormon church, though, is that prophet thing. If you're going to call someone a prophet and/or "inspired", their words have to stand the test of time. At the very least, we should expect their words to be denounced, if they are wrong at the time or seen to be so subsequently. But if the Mormon church teaches that its prophets' words are to live by (and other leaders), then they have to claim them, you'd think.

It is certainly a challenge to address these sensitive issues in the face of racial, cultural and religious differences. I'd be interested to know what, if any, information strikes a chord with HoAM's wife.

Subject: Re: Scotty
Date: Dec 13 21:41
Author: ScottySoprano

Very good points. I remember on my mission, the mission president holding up a set of the scriptures and saying "I don't care what Brigham Young said, we are only worried about these". What I found very wrong with that, was that we of course were taught that when the apostles and prophet speak, it's as valid as the scriptures. And that the Ensign should be kept on our shelves right next to the scriptures. It's a hard paradox to get past, but nevertheless it exists. The statement that I was appalled to read was"

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." - JoD: vol.10 p. 110: (March 8, 1863)

Make no bones about it, BY states that this is the "Law of God", and that it will "Always be so". How can the church possibly get around this, or dismiss it? They can't and when it presented this, to the bishop of my ward in Seattle, he shrugged it off, in the same reaction as my mission president. I find it very irresponsible to use obscure quotes, by early leaders to prove a point in Gospel doctrine class, but when a quote is destructive to the church's image, of course it's shoved aside as antiquated, and irrelevant! I enjoy these types of discussion as well. Too bad that it's nearly impossible to have one with a TBM.

Subject: Missionaries breaking the rules.
Date: Dec 13 20:36
Author: Mateo

This might be simple, and I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned in the other thread. The fact is, if the missionaries are entering your house without another male there, they are breaking their own rules. If you tell them not to call and they do, there is something seriously wrong with that...

There is also a Joseph Smith quote somewhere out there that says that if a man doesn't give his wife permission to be baptized, she cannot. It's pretty simple... I'll try to find it.

Mateo

Subject: More thoughts
Date: Dec 13 20:43
Author: Nightingale
Mail Address:

Another recent story to look up is posted by "windsong" about her acquaintance who is a black single mom who was on the verge of baptism this week. Maybe some thoughts and references posted on that thread will help you? (Check out the Off Topic board too - there is a similar thread over there).

And check out Deconstructor's web site - he has plenty of material from the church itself that shows its racism, sexism, abuse, controlling nature and other negative characteristics.


Husband of Almost Mormon wrote:
> When she first told me of their visits (they always come when I am at work


Perhaps it would be possible for you to at least ask if they can come (or instruct them to) when you are home. That way, you can participate in the interactions with your wife and you will know what is being said to her (and can discuss it with her later). This may also be a good way to show that you are interested in making this very important decision together.


> Unfortunately, she thinks the church is wonderful and wanted to us to join right away. HER reasons are:

> 1. She prayed to God, and God told her it is true.


Would it help to ask her how she knows this, have her state her reasons, then analyze them logically?


> 2. Mormons act more virtuous than all other Christians, so they must be the best.


Again, on what does she base this conclusion? Heck, people who aren't even religious "act" (are?) more virtuous than some Mormons, Christians and other religious people.


> 3. Her new belief is responsible for eliminating the nasty pains she normally gets from her monthly visitor.


Hmmmm, it would be interesting to analyze why this would be so. Is there any other explanation? Something like this could well be one of the most persuasive of all arguments to get her to join! It's very important not to lean on one issue that you allow to be so persuasive that you lose all reason, in the face of ample evidence that should at least cause you to take a more thorough look. (i.e., What facts "prove" that her new belief is responsible for pain relief? Is this alone enough to cause her to overlook any possible problems with Mo'ism, such as the RACISM?)


> 4. The differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity are trivial technicalities. For Chinese, any Christian religion is alien/strange. Mormonism is no more or less strange for Chinese people.


I understand your point re the culture/customs/different religion. BUT, I must emphatically state that the differences are most certainly NOT trivial, from a religious/doctrinal point of view. I know you know that. If it's important to your wife to join a mainstream Christian church, which is what you stated at the outset was your shared goal, it may be worth gathering some information from more traditional Christian religions and showing her the vast differences. (I know I've made this point before, sorry for repeating, but it's important to me, although that doesn't help you with your wife I know).


> 5. Even if LDS is not perfect, it will help us raise wonderful moral Children in a society where moral values have vastly eroded.


Yes, perhaps, BUT there are many ways to do this that don't bring all the negative aspects into your life that Mo'ism may do.


> In my opinion, the following reasons are influencing her more (although she denies these)

>

> 1. While she has other Chinese friends, these are the most virtuous, moral, and friendly Chinese people she has ever met.


Not to belabor the point, and not to say these people are not "virtuous" but if possible, I'd ask your wife what facts and proof she has of this. I too made many assumptions about the people I met at the Mormon church. In retrospect though, I only knew them from what I saw in church meetings and what I ASSUMED. This is a flimsy basis on which to build such an impression of their morals and virtues.

I'm not arguing that they are not this - but just that it's not necessarily so - and also, it's a very deep disillusionment if your expectations of people are high and they turn out to be not what you thought. I hope that doesn't happen to your wife.


> 2. She can baptize her Buddhist parents after death, while other Christian religions damn them to hell.


Yes, as I've stated - this was very appealing to me too (not the Buddhist part, but the "second chance" for people after death). The thing is, none of that matters if this isn't actually true. Investigators need to know what basis the Mormon church has for teaching this belief and what is the likelihood (or proof) that it is true. Just wishing it doesn't make it so.


> 3. It fills a big need inside her that is unfulfilled. (I guess that is my failure as a new husband)


Don't be too hard on yourself. No one person can fill all of another person's deepest needs. I do believe there is such a thing as a spiritual yearning or seeking - it's helpful to analyze it and find out what its roots are and then determine ways to address that need. This isn't easy. But for example, part of such a need is fulfilled for me in music. If I didn't realize that, I could well believe it was fulfilled by "religion". (And part of it is, but that's another story).


> 4. Every time her faith wanes (like she skips church), the missionaries come. Although she neither calls them nor returns their phone calls, they still catch her. They never get discouraged. If they did not always bother her, she might have drifted away many times.


This is not unusual and it is not magical. This is what the missionaries DO. They have one goal and that is to get people baptized. They keep records of "investigators" and pass them on to successive missionaries, in addition to making their names known to regular church members. Unless your wife specifically states she is not interested in joining, they will keep calling (and may do so even if you both say no).


> I have tried the standard arguments (no need to repeat them) and even enlisted the aid of my family and hers. I do not think this helped, I think everyone "ganging up" on her and her new faith made things worse.


YES, you could be right. The missionaries will "warn" her about this and when it happens, she'll believe what they told her, that "Satan" will try to stop her from getting baptized. It's very important to try and stop an attachment forming whereby she will listen to the mishies more than to you and both your families.


> I had hoped that my job would be easier than your other posters, as neither of us are Mormons yet. However, the only affect I can have is keeping her from attending the service through other activities, travel, or sleeping-in. Although I can distract her, the missionaries NEVER LET UP and NEVER GIVE UP. They call her until she responds. Since it is hard enough to get rid of them when you try, her indecision about whether to join fuels their drive to convert her!


Exactly. Again, they are full time with only one goal - to baptize your wife as she seems to have shown an interest. The distraction/other activities you mention could be a good way of filling her needs with something besides a church she is being pressured to join.


> Now, she is ready to be baptized. While I have taken her several times to a church she thinks is "very nice", it does not fill her heart the way LDS does. She believed this is the true Christian church and not a cult. My wife feels that the "petty" differences between LDS and mainstream are irrelevant. She understands that I am not interested, but thinks I should not interfere with her religion.


I wonder if it would make any difference to her if she knew that other Christian churches do consider Mormonism not only not Christian but also a cult? That is at least worth taking a second look at, no?

Again, the differences are not petty, as you know.

Regarding you "interfering" - I have been trying to avoid stating that you should just tell her she can't or just tell the missionaries to go away, on your wife's behalf. I'm torn between wanting her to step back and become more informed before making her decision and not wanting to see you act the heavy with your wife, telling her what to do or not do. It really doesn't sit well with me that a man would give orders to his wife and expect her to obey him. Even if she decides she wants to join, I think such an approach would be very detrimental. So, I agree with her that this is her decision. However, maybe you could remind her of your stated goal at the beginning - to find a church for you BOTH to attend. As you don't want to attend or join this one, could she find it in her newlywed heart to continue seeking till you find a church you can both live with, even if it's a compromise for one or both of you?

Far from wanting to "interfere in her religion", can you emphasize that you want to be part of this aspect of her life that is important to both of you and your marriage?


> Also, does anybody know of a way I, as her husband (and king/ruler) can stop the missionaries from bothering her. If they stopped pushing, this would be much easier for me. Can I use my supposed male dominance as a technicality to order them to stop??


Erk. Answer as above....I detest the male dominance thing. But that's me. I'd tend to go more towards the "let's do it together" compromise solution - finding a religion (or no religion) that you can participate in together. Mormonism is a difficult religion to work around when one of you is involved in the church and the other isn't. I think it can easily cause you major marital problems and negatively affect your lives.

But if you haven't already, check out Deconstructor's site for some concrete info that may be of use to you, even as background, in trying to work out your dilemma. I'll look for his link and post it for you.

Subject: If your wife wants to be a Mormon and be baptized, there is not much you can do except
Date: Dec 13 20:47
Author: SusieQ#1

let her know it is a "deal breaker" as there is no way this will make the marriage work and children are out of the question.

She is making a unilateral decision that will change the whole marriage contract and shows she is not interested in being married to you, but is more interested in being married to a church.

She needs to choose: you or Mormonism and do it quickly.

Subject: Deconstructor's web site
Date: Dec 13 20:50
Author: Nightingale
Mail Address:

Decon's info is at:

http://www.i4m.com/think/


NB: that's an 'i' not a '1' - it gets me every time. :)

Subject: less pains from her "monthly visitor", could be from LESS caffine.
Date: Dec 13 21:30
Author: Kathi
Mail Address:

Or less fat in diet. So if you're wife cut down her caffeine intake, or changed her diet, it's chemistry not God telling her the Mormon Church is true.

Subject: HoAM reply to ALL who have posted up to now
Date: Dec 13 22:12
Author: HoAM
Mail Address:

I will make one reply to all who posted in the original thread which closed before I could reply, and to the replies to the new thread so far. If I reply individually, the thread will close too soon.
-----------------------------
> Ron G. >I'm grabbing at straws here, but if they're male according to church policy they aren't actually allowed to be alone with your wife. (If they're female or a married couple then there's no such prohibition by the church


This is GREAT, but are you sure it applies. While the missionaries are usually male, there are two of them. One is never alone with her. Please double check.
---------------------------------
Re: Racism in General

ScottySoprano basically explains why racism aspect is useless. Inquisition/Baptize or die/etc. J.S. at his worst pales in comparison.

However, the direct quote is useful, so thank you Nightingale. However, I am just afraid that it will be dismissed as in the past. Nothing the Mormons do in China can compare to the horror inflicted by the British when they forced China to legalize opium at gunpoint. (Hong Kong)
-----------------------------------
>Mateo >There is also a Joseph Smith quote somewhere out there that says that if a man doesn't give his wife permission to be baptized, she cannot. It's pretty simple... I'll try to find it.


Please try to find it! Hopefully it still applies??? As for the male missionaries, are they alone with her if there are two males mishies?
------------------------------------
>Nightingale>


I appreciate any long reply, as it shows your sincere desire to help. However, it seems 90% can only be used to convince me. I am convinced, but we need to convince HER. She does not have a Christian cultural background, so the doctrinal differences are not important. Please read my responses to others on the original thread!

The only doctrinal difference that might work is the "god was once like us, and we can be god" part. However, they seem to deny this. I need to prove somehow that this still is taught!

Also, accusations that I cannot prove are not useful. I need things that cannot be easily dismissed as propaganda. And yes, she has known about what other churches think of LDS for 10+ years. This is dismissed as persecution and actually helps sometimes!

As far as being a male dominant pig, that is not in my nature. However, if forbidding her would work, I would do it without hesitation! Remember, obedience to a husband is somewhat part of Asian culture. Regardless, this is not really my question. I want to know if I can use the LDS beliefs in this against them. How can they support a wife disobeying a husband?? Or, maybe as a non-mo, I have no authority as a husband??
------------------------------------
>SuzieQ#1>let her know it is a "deal breaker" as there is no way this will make the marriage work and children are out of the question.


I am sorry, but this seems like the surest way to driver her into their arms. I think this may be their goal. However, I do agree about the children part and have already told her so.

--- Replies to original post ----

>Couguy>I think you ought to end-run your wife with the missionaries. I would just go a little "mental" with the missionaries, when your wife isn't there.


The mishies rarely come when I am home, and never come when she is not home. This is may be a good advise to deal with the first visit. I normally would never want to hurt the feelings of those who mean well. However, I would never make the same mistake of politeness, regardless of whether the poor baby got his feelings hurt while trying to mess up my life.
--------------------------------------------

>Jeff>It's a very weird evil cult, with a lot of money behind it and a public relations firm. It looks innocent enough. But it's a wolf in sheep's clothing.


I made a great wolf analogy in an earlier reply. If anyone can help me prove that the top leaders make millions, and LDS is a for profit corporation, this would influence her. If it is really about the 10%, she'll quit in 10 seconds.
-----------------------------------------
>Dig>So, because of this temple marriage thing and the Mormon never-ending quest for more members, you will be next. They will target you constantly. Your wife will feel guilty at church because she is married to a non-member. They will have discussions about you behind your back -- how they can convert you, what they need to do to fellowship you, discussing your "anti-Mormon" behavior, discussing their "worry" for your wife because she is married to a non-member, etc. I guarantee this will happen because I used to be the one talking behind people's backs. Many people on this board used to do the same thing.


I know this. My wife knows this. But she thinks that I will come around. What I really need is either

1. To use their desire for my 10% as a way to postpone her baptism (and get them to agree to not see her w/o me)
2. To prove that they WILL eventually ask her to leave me (she asked and they denied this would ever occur)
-------------------------------------------------
>Claire> Forbid the missionaries to ever come around again, tell your wife she needs to choose between you and the church NOW


See my response above to SuzieQ. I would like to forbid the missionaries to come, but they may ignore me, or worse, be graceful and make me look like an a**.
------------------------------------
>Melanie>you are asking her to wait (say 3 months or until a big day in your future like an anniversary or something) before she finally gets baptized. Ask that, in this time, if the missionaries come over that they only come over when you are there because having them come over when you are gone makes you feel like they are hiding something from you and trying to steal your wife away from you.


Good idea, but I detest having to waste many hours discussing theology with professionals. I am an amateur. Can I ask that all missionary discussion be done by email so I can consult this board "on the fly" (LOL)
------------------------------------------
>Melissa>I think you can legitimately contact the missionaries or their president and tell them you don't want them to visit your wife in your absence. I don't think they are going to accept not contacting her at all.


I like this idea as it refines Melanies idea a bit. Anybody with more suggestions on how to speak with the Mission pres would be great. Should I meet in person, phone, snail mail, or via email.
-------------------------------------
>Pericles>not a word about Christ - it was all about Joseph Smith!...Explain it this way to them...kindly call off the missionaries that are contacting your wife and respect your position and authority.


First, thanks for the massive advise. I hope maybe my results (if good) could help with your situation, and I will give you a hand if I ever have something you can use.

Second, she says LDS never says it is the church of Smith, I need proof. Third, who do I explain the "wolf/snake" analogy to?? (MP? Mishies? Wife?)

Last, the MP idea is GOLD! Should I meet in person. How do I find him if I have no contact with any LDS people.
------------------------------------------------
>dig>When I was a missionary I believe it was policy to ask the spouse if he/she supported the baptism. If the spouse was strongly against the baptism, the baptism would often be postponed until the couple could work out the differences. (This is a respectable way of doing things, in my opinion)


Please confirm this if possible. How can I invoke this exactly if I never see them.

HoAM

Subject: A couple suggestions, HoAM
Date: Dec 13 23:46
Author: OU812
Mail Address:

HoAM wrote:
> Good idea, but I detest having to waste many hours discussing theology with professionals. I am an amateur. Can I ask that all missionary discussion be done by email so I can consult this board "on the fly" (LOL)

These people are not theological professionals, they are conscripted "volunteers". And there is no reason you can't have a Catholic or Methodist professional present when they come for an appointment with you and your wife.

HoAM wrote:
> I like this idea as it refines Melanies idea a bit. Anybody with more suggestions on how to speak with the Mission pres would be great. Should I meet in person, phone, snail mail, or via email.

Contact him any and every way you can. Use all of the above if you can. Ask the missionaries for a name and a phone number and an address and an email address and use whatever you get from them.

Subject: Male missionaries, even if there are two of them, (which there always are), may not teach an unaccompanied woman or girl...
Date: Dec 14 00:14
Author: Ron G.
Mail Address:

If a pair of male missionaries has been going to your home to teach your wife when you are not there, they are in violation of church policy.

The church has gotten burned in the past with missionaries taking liberties with their investigators, and vice-versa, and in every circumstance that I am aware of visits to an unaccompanied woman in private is not allowed.

And they normally shouldn't visit even if there are two women - that just looks like a double date. They may claim to have some kind of "special permission" to teach her unaccompanied, if there are no Chinese-speaking sister (female) missionaries to teach your wife - but the church-wide rule is that this is not allowed.

As a husband you would have every right to go directly to them, or to their mission president, and demand that the visits stop immediately. (Of course they could then reschedule the lessons to take place at the Mormon chapel on Sunday before or after the regular meetings.)

If your whole original plan was to find a church that you could attend together, then the Mormon church is destroying those plans.

And I'll tell you upfront, if no one else already has, that while they prefer to baptize families or couples together, they have no problem with baptizing your wife "first," with the intention of persuading her to nag and guilt you into coming to church with her and eventually being baptized yourself. (For "your own good," of course!)

If this sounds like a paranoid exaggeration - it's not, trust me! This is standard operating procedure in the Mormon church. It happened with my parents, and I've seen it happen in many other families. They have the mindset that temporarily dividing your family is a good thing, if it means that they can eventually baptize you too, (even if it's only after you're dead...)

While your tendency is to dismiss racism as an obstacle, that is another issue that I've witnessed with my own eyes. As far as Mormon friendliness goes, once your wife is baptized the "courting" process will be over, and she won't be so special anymore. Especially if you move to an area where there are few or no other Asians in the congregation. I attended the "English" (typically whites only) branch in Taipei, and native members and visitors were generally not welcome. ("They have their own meetings.")

There are many very decent, kindhearted Mormons in the world, but Mormons in general tend to be very clannish, and there are (unofficial) exclusionary cliques in almost every congregation. Your wife will learn that the hard way, and will either have to come up with enough guilt and rationalizations to keep herself motivated to attend, or (if you're lucky) she'll eventually get sick of it and leave.

I don't know what your relationship is like with your wife, but Mormonism will definitely become the "other man" in her life, and you will be a cuckold. Them's just the facts - get used to 'em. (I know this from experience, my wife is still a practicing Mormon - and I often take a back seat to the church's demands...)

Good luck!

Ron

Subject: For a church that places so much emphasis on family unity...
Date: Dec 13 23:56
Author: Maori man
Mail Address:

they seem very willing to drive a wedge into yours.

Subject: the males question
Date: Dec 14 00:29
Author: TheMoonRising

The male missionaries are not supposed to enter any home where an adult male family member, i.e. husband, father, brother, is not present. Definitely talk to the mission president about this.


Love, Light and Laughter!

Subject: my reply to your reply :)
Date: Dec 14 00:41
Author: Bee
Mail Address:

I really don't know if any of this will be of any help if your wife is of the opinion that the past is the past and it only matters what they say now. That is a bad approach to have with a religion. Doesn't your wife agree that god is supposed to be unchanging? How could god decree everlasting doctrines and then the new 'prophets' just change them? If she has the lax attitude to this she seems to, I doubt any arguments will effect her because she is just going by feeling and ignoring any reason.

Never-the-less, I will reply to some of your post.

"Regarding polygamy/past sexism/racism until 1978: She says that all this is wrong but in the past."
One approach with this is the fact that previous god chosen prophets declared those things as true. If the current prophet says it's not true...then the previous prophet must have been a fallen prophet, and all proceeding prophets by default too. If the early prophets were correct in their doctrines then the current one is a false prophet. Either way, you can't denounce what was declared by one prophet as doctrine to be false without making the church untrue.
Eg.s are Brigham Youngs Adam/God doctrine, his statements on black never getting the priesthood, his statements on plural marriage being essential to exaltation.

"As for "heavenly" or non-physical polygamy, this may be silly but not evil".
How do you figure?? Eternity is a LONG time to be stuck playing wife to a 'god' with many other wives. Is she really willing to share you with other women for all of eternity? And it isn't really 'non-physical' either. Mormons believe they will have physical flesh and bone bodies in the afterlife.

"Regarding current sexism: the sexism admitted by the LDS is milder than sexism accepted in Asian culture today. Also, my attempt to control her religion makes my sexism argument backfire."
Your wife doesn't live within an Asian culture, and doesn't have to accept it's or the lds's sexism.
Your attempts to be involved in life altering decisions of your wife's is not sexist, it's loving concern from one spouse to another; and concern as one half of the marriage about the marriage.

Blood atonement: Basically, Brigham Young taught as doctrine for about 20 years while he was prophet that Christ's blood was not good enough to atone for some sins, and that the people who had committed the sins would have to have their own blood shed to atone for their sins. Most Christians find that to be very blasphemous.
"You say, "That man ought to die for transgressing the law of God." Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands....
...There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. ***The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it***; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants." A Discourse by President Brigham Young, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Great Salt Lake City, March 16, 1856.

Fear/guilt/dependence:As all good cults/controllers do, they try and cut you off from other resources and supports. they will be vilified and shunned. Eg, you should only read good faith promoting materials, never things like this website that tell the facts. You should not associate with people you know who 'sin' because they will lead you to temptation and sin yourself. As a member she will be told to go to god in prayer or a priesthood leader about every question and problem. You will not have the priesthood. She will be going 'over your head' for everything.
They will control her by withholding blessings for non-compliance. If she doesn't pay her 10%, she can't get any of the temple blessings. Being a Mormon without temple blessings is almost as useless as being a buddist(to them).
They will use fear of humiliation to control her sexuality. Masturbation for example is a sin that needs to be discussed with your bishop. How much more humiliating could it get?

"Regarding "God was a man": The missionaries seem to deny this to her or explain it away. Is there a way I can show that they believe it NOW??"
http://www.lds-mormon.com/gbh.shtml
The current president/prophet even preached it himself, but to members, not potential converts or the general public. (they also admit there is a heavenly mother, if asked directly, but never speak about this '1 of many' wives of god. she gets no praise, worship, or devotion. uh, yeah, sexist).:
And from Gordon B. Hinckley himself when speaking to members instead of to potential converts:
"On the other hand, the whole design of the gospel is to lead us onward and upward to greater achievement, even, eventually, to godhood. This great possibility was enunciated by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the King Follet sermon (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-62) and emphasized by President Lorenzo Snow. It is this grand and incomparable concept: As God now is, man may become! (See The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, comp. Clyde J. Williams, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1984, p. 1) Our enemies have criticized us for believing in this. Our reply is that this lofty concept in no way diminishes God the Eternal Father. He is the Almighty. He is the Creator and Governor of the universe. He is the greatest of all and will always be so. But just as any earthly father wishes for his sons and daughters every success in life, so I believe our Father in Heaven wishes for his children that they might approach him in stature and stand beside him resplendent in godly strength and wisdom. (Conference Report, Oct. 1994)

"Regarding assigned friends: I completely agree, but could you direct me to any stories about his that I can show her as proof."
Well, I myself was assigned to befriend inactive members. They assign you to 'visiting teach' members too, which is basically assigned friendship/busybodying (things are reported back to leaders from home/visiting teaching. they are information gathering expeditions). And just in general members are told from the pulpit to be 'member missionaries', which includes befriending any investigators or converts so they will stay.

Utlm.org is a good resource (as well as here of course).
Good luck, Bee

Oh yeah, just adding after the fact here that Yes, the missionaries aren't allowed to teach your wife while you're not there. They aren't allowed to be alone a lone woman. Even as a member they couldn't come into my home to share dinner unless my husband was home, and would wait outside till he arrived. They wouldn't even come in to use the toilet if they were about to burst unless he was home. it's ridiculous, but can be used by you to your advantage. I have also heard they can't even teach your wife if you object. But that would mean pulling rank over your wife, which despite her apparently submissive leanings may cause marital problems over the sexist inequality.

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