Subject: New Abanes Errata for ONUG - One Nation Under Gods by the author Richard Abanes
Date: Dec 15 20:44 2004
Author: Richard Abanes

All,

Greetings! Long time no talk. I hope all are doing well and I continue to pray for everyone—well, maybe not everyone (just kidding).

As many of you know, I am the author of One Nation Under Gods, which some of you have read. As many of you also know, criticisms of this volume have been made by both FARMS and FAIR. (hello FAIR monitors, hope you are doing well, Allen).

I think it is common knowledge that I am a Christian. Because I am a Christian, I must seek to be as accurate and honest as possible—as Christ like as I can be. This is my definition of integrity. So, in an effort to be as FAIR as possible (sorry for the pun, I could not resist), I have now finished an errata for my hardbound volume of One Nation Under Gods. This reflects SOME of, perhaps MOST of, the editorial changes and corrections that were made to the text for the paperback edition. The errata is now available on the Internet at

http://www.abanes.com/ErrataONUG.pdf.

The document should instantly download. Please type in the URL exactly as it appears here, including caps. The opening statement reads:

"Soon after the release of One Nation Under Gods (hardback), Mormons were quick to criticize many statements that I had made, especially those relating to various quotes lifted from either the writings or speeches of Mormon leaders. According to the Mormon Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR), One Nation Under Gods (ONUG) employed “questionable scholarship and misuse of sources.” Examples were provided on the Internet in the form of an ongoing project intended to highlight the “mistakes” in my volume. Some of these criticisms were valid, but only because of careless work that had been done by an editor who had: a) failed to make editorial changes he was responsible for making; b) failed to follow my directions about not altering quotes; and c) failed to thoroughly read the manuscript. Other FAIR criticisms, however, were less about real mistakes, and more about how Mormons interpret events in LDS history as opposed to how non-Mormons interpret those same events. The remaining objections raised by FAIR were rather nit-picky (e.g., not liking the words I used to describe Mormon scholar Allen Roberts). Some of the so-called errors also were due to a combination of: 1) a lack of clarity on my part when making a subtle point; and 2) an over-sensitivity by Mormons to a point I was seeking to make. Because these “errors” understandably distressed Mormons, I corrected them in the paperback edition (PB) edition of the book (despite my disagreement with Mormons about whether or not some of the references could legitimately be called “errors”). I also made other minor changes to the PB text that I thought would help clarify my points—all in hopes of being as accurate as possible when dealing with members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). This errata, which reflects the PB changes, is included in all hardback editions (HB) of ONUG that I make available. [No changes were made when criticisms were too minor to warrant a text alteration.]"

I would venture to say that even this document has various typozzz and errors. Hmmmm, let me see, that would probably be called being human. Ah well. I do hope it is helpful to all of you with the hardbound edition. One thing that is not included is the Postscript that I inserted into the paperback version. You might want to borrow a PB and read it. Lots of good stuff in my opinion.

Oh, and by the way, I am not sure how many of you know this. But I am also a Christian musician and singer who has released a few CDs of inspirational, and I believe, uplifting music. Please feel free to visit my music site and enjoy some of my music. Hey, I'm not always a hateful mean-spirited anti-Mormon.

Oh, and speaking of anti-Mormon, for those of you with a Christian bent, I was on the radio talk show Issues, Etc. yesterday talking about Grant palmer and Richard Mouw. The audio is now available for FREE and downloadable at http://www.kfuo.org/ under the heading "Mormonism & Fuller Theological Seminary" -- Rich Abanes Religious Information Center.

Anyway, I do want those of you with a hardbound of ONUG to have this information so that you can have updated material.

blessings and peace to all, and a Merry Christmas!

cordially,

Richard Abanes

Oh, I almost forgot to tell you. If you print out the PDF, you will see a border line around all of the text. If you cut along this line, then the pages will fit perfectly into your hardbound copy of ONUG. You can staple it together and store it right in the book.

Subject: Mormon criticisms
Date: Dec 15 21:08
Author: Dr. Shades

Remember, many criticisms to your book were due only to the fact that Mormons were reading those Journal of Discourses quotes through their Internet Mormon lenses, not the way the original Mormons understood them.

Methinks you gave your critics more credit than they deserved. They think they "own" those quotes merely because they are Mormons. On the contrary, they have no monopoly on interpretation.

Subject: Re: Mormon criticisms
Date: Dec 15 21:36
Author: rabanes

Yo D.S.,

I always want to bend as much as possible and give wherever I can. I agree, however, that modern LDS some times reinterpret JOD statements that soften how the original hearers probably understood the words—Adam-God and Blood Atonement quotes spring immediately to mind.

But, then again, today's Mormons are today's Mormons. I think I'd just rather deal with what they believe NOW, and only argue about history when/if history becomes an issue.

RAbanes

Subject: Sorry, Richard, but if you write an "anti-Mormon" book....
Date: Dec 15 22:09
Author: Randy J.

.....you're not allowed to have any errors whatsoever. You can't have any misspelled words or so much as a comma out of place. If your book does, Mormon apologists will assert that such trivial items "discredit" the entire work.

But simultaneously, you can point out numerous gigantic gaffes in the statements or writings of LDS church leaders to those same Mormon apologists, and they will dismiss them with "He was only speaking as a man, not as a prophet," or "That was only his opinion, and it isn't official doctrine."

The point being that Mormon apologists of FAIR, FARMS, and similar ilk demand a higher standard of correctness from mere human "anti-Mormon authors" like yourself than they do of the men whom they believe have regular communication with God.

BTW, I sing lots of religious songs in karaoke, like "Let It Be," "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show," "Thank the Lord for the Night Time," "My Sweet Lord," etc. :-)

Subject: Re: Sorry, Richard, but if you write an "anti-Mormon" book....
Date: Dec 15 22:24
Author: rabanes

The point being that Mormon apologists of FAIR, FARMS, and similar ilk demand a higher standard of correctness from mere human "anti-Mormon authors" like yourself than they do of the men whom they believe have regular communication with God.

RA: I have indeed found that I am not allowed very much room for my, er, uhm, humanness. Nevertheless, I will always try to learn where I can learn, and seek to stay open to correction and in turn try to be better. That's what being a Christian is about, at least for me.

BTW, I sing lots of religious songs in karaoke, like "Let It Be," "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show," "Thank the Lord for the Night Time," "My Sweet Lord," etc. :-)

RA: Very cool. You will, I hope, enjoy my music which ranges from very Christian (e.g., Jesus Loves You) to tunes more in line with the understanding of simple theists (e.g., There is a God).

peace and Merry C.,

RAbanes

Subject: Re: New Abanes Errata for ONUG
Date: Dec 16 00:12
Author: missinglink

I haven't read your book but I did enjoy reading the errata. Your experiences with the nit-pickers at FAIR/FARMS is not unique - and it has nothing to do with you being a non-member, either. The mopologists simply can't stand anything that doesn't toe the party line.

Subject: Re: New Abanes Errata for ONUG
Date: Dec 16 00:39
Author: Viewer

I just finished reading your book, I found it pretty hard hitting, definitely prone to interpretations and outwardly bias. When you use word such as allegedly or supposedly when telling a story, you said a lot to me about your agenda. If you would have left out some interpretations and words you used above, I think your work may have had a better impact that showed more scholarly work than a bias agenda. One would come away thinking that there was not a shred of good in the Mormon faith because any good was overlooked. That was my feeling anyways, even as an post Mormon unbeliever.

Having said that, I found it a powerful book, that showed the steamier side of Mormonism that most will never hear about. You did a great job showing the hard iron fist that ruled the church during BY's days, it made me scared to consider passing through that area as a non-Mormon and scared even more if I was a doubting Mormon living there.

I will be interested to read the errata sheet, thanks for pointing it out.

Subject: Merry Christmas, Richard!
Date: Dec 16 00:52
Author: Lost no more

Thank you very much for writing ONUG; I bought a copy and began reading it at a crossroads in my life, as I was nearing my official resignation from the Mormon church.

Life has been better in so many ways since leaving, but I wonder if I haven't lost my kinder, gentler side forever. For me, at least, I have discovered a rougher edge to myself.

You know, I would never go back into the Mormon church though; I can't believe the deceitful foundation and the present-day manipulation of its members. Like I told my local leadership just a year ago, "I can never go back somehow forgetting all that I have learned."

Best to you, Richard!

Keith

Subject: Richard, your book is a treasure.
Date: Dec 16 00:59
Author: Saucie

I'm so glad I bought it. I actually couldn't put it down.
Thanks

Subject: Loved the book
Date: Dec 16 02:25
Author: vegasbright

I could have done without the pro-Christian stance. I think the books ability to confront Mormonism was severely limited when you included a call to Christianity. Don't get me wrong, a great deal of what was in the book was excellent but it just added fuel to the book burning pyres at FARMS. I understand that you have a belief system that you want to stand up for and I commend you for standing up, but in my opinion it hurt more than helped.

When we look to history we should not have to push ones religion out of the way to see the truth of certain matters.

Subject: Re: Loved the book- HUH??
Date: Dec 16 15:18
Author: rabanes

I think the books ability to confront Mormonism was severely limited when you included a call to Christianity.


RA: I did????? Where is that. I'm just a bit confused here. I had a chapter comparing Mormonism to traditional Christianity, but I don't remember any "call" to Christianity. This was published by a secular company run by a very wonderful Jewish man! Maybe you can be more specific.

RAbanes

Subject: Re: Loved the book- HUH??
Date: Dec 16 20:16
Author: vegasbright

Let me just say that I personally find the Christian effort to expose Mormonism possessing as many ulterior motives as anyone in the LDS authorship club. What I mean by this is that the hard core historical facts regarding the fraud of the church are shaded in a light of a Christian call to repentance, much as the current anti-Muslim movement is embarrassing the war on terror and fueling anti-Americanism. While not overtly Christian, I found the subtext to be geared towards the more reactionary individuals who rely on sensationalism and claims of Satanism and child molestation in the temple, etc.

The focus of the chapter entitled "Is Mormonism Christian" was about Mormonism's claim of Christianity and subsequent efforts to mainstream. Defending ones views from a Christian standpoint qualifies one as preaching from the Christian bandwagon in my mind. Adding fuel to the useless debate over such a futile discussion, in my mind, is like arguing with a child over petty intricacies and merely is just pouring gasoline on the fire. Equating Mormons untruthfulness with Christianities "standard of truth" creates a reliance on another false belief system and in the end lends to the discrediting of other more important facts in the book.

Furthermore, Three out of four of the quotes (tanner, hanegraaff, and shermer) are targeted towards a Christian audience. You wrote this book, I believe, catering not to a more intellectual audience but the reactionary Christians that embarrass the anti-Mormon movement. Why didn't you just run to saints alive to get ed dickers opinion?

One of my biggest pet peeves in some exmo ideological stances is that Mormonism is not true because they claim to be Christian. Claiming to be Christian does not make you not accurate, nor does it make one more accurate. Appealing to the belief that one can disprove the Mormon belief system based on this appeals to the Christian right and ignores the more structured and logical approach of using historical facts.

Let me say that while I was incorrect in saying that you made a call for Christianity, you did appeal to Christianity. In this the book can, just like "by his own hands upon papyrus" be discredited unjustly by the idiots at FARMS.

Subject: Re: Loved the book- HUH??
Date: Dec 16 20:52
Author: rabanes

V: Let me just say that I personally find the Christian effort to expose Mormonism possessing as many ulterior motives as anyone in the LDS authorship club.

RA: In many instance, I agree. But not in all instances.

V: While not overtly Christian, I found the subtext to be geared towards the more reactionary individuals who rely on sensationalism and claims of Satanism and child molestation in the temple, etc.

RA: I respectfully disagree. I am not sure where this subtext is located. Some of the things that I wrote about are rather striking, to be sure, but I hardly think I was appealing to the SRA crowd. Some aspects of LDS history do have a "wow" factor, but that is not my fault. I did not sensationalize anything.


V: The focus of the chapter entitled "Is Mormonism Christian" was about Mormonism's claim of Christianity and subsequent efforts to mainstream. Defending ones views from a Christian standpoint qualifies one as preaching from the Christian bandwagon in my mind.

RA: I was not defending the validity, or lack thereof, of Christianity. That would be a different book. I was making a comparison of LDS claims of being part of Christianity.

V: Adding fuel to the useless debate over such a futile discussion, in my mind, is like arguing with a child over petty intricacies and merely is just pouring gasoline on the fire.

RA: You opinion, but I don't think a valid one for people who are seeking some spirituality and want to know the difference between Mormonism and traditional Christianity.

V: Equating Mormons untruthfulness with Christianities "standard of truth" creates a reliance on another false belief system and in the end lends to the discrediting of other more important facts in the book.

RA: I was not making a truth claim for either, but simply comparing them.

V: Furthermore, Three out of four of the quotes (tanner, hanegraaff, and shermer) are targeted towards a christian audience.

RA: But it was published by a secular publisher.

V: You wrote this book, I believe, catering not to a more intellectual audience but the reactionary christians that embarrass the anti-mormon movement.

RA: I catered to neither, but wrote for the general, lay public.


V: Why didn't you just run to saints alive to get ed deckers opinion?

RA: huh? I didn't because I have my own opinion.


V: Claiming to be christian does not make you not accurate, nor does it make one more accurate.

RA: I agree.

RA

Subject: Re: Exposing a fact while overlooking another in a blatantly ignorant way
Date: Dec 16 09:10
Author: Quinlansolo

Maybe I am totally wrong about you, because to date I did not read a single sentence of your books, publications.... While on one hand are set on a mission to expose the fraudulent past of LDS church, on the other hand you are becoming a pawn in Chriastian Rights motives. As I recall I did listen you one day in Hank Hanegraaf's radio shows touting your book and playing into his "Absolute truth is the same everywhere" motto. This man is no different than any ignorant LDS leader when it comes to Biblical absolutism, to him there is no other truth but literal Biblical truth, such as "literal creation", "universal flood" and all other absurdities which long repudiated by most intelligent scientific minds who can distinguish fact from fiction.
Therefore, when you write a book, exposing LDS fraud for the sake of advancing another fiction perpetuated by another largely fictional accounts it would be the waste of my time to read the elements from your point of view that I already know.

Subject: Re: Exposing a fact while overlooking another in a blatantly ignorant way
Date: Dec 16 15:21
Author: rabanes

Therefore, when you write a book, exposing LDS fraud for the sake of advancing another fiction perpetuated by another largely fictional accounts it would be the waste of my time to read the elements from your point of view that I already know.

RA: Hmmmm. Well, I'm also on the editorial advisory board of The Skeptic Society, an secular (pseudo-agnostic/atheist) organization headed by Michael Shermer, which publishes Skeptic Magazine.

Does that make a difference????

RAbanes

Subject: Re: Exposing a fact while overlooking another in a blatantly ignorant way
Date: Dec 16 20:15
Author: vegasbright

Wow, hate to call you out, but you sound conflicted.

Subject: Re: Exposing a fact while overlooking another in a blatantly ignorant way
Date: Dec 16 20:41
Author: rabanes
Mail Address: 
>Wow, hate to call you out, but you sound conflicted.


RA: not conflicted, just complex. : - )

RAbanes

Subject: Thanks for the great book Richard!
Date: Dec 16 09:36
Author: Jim Smith

I was a disillusioned Christian when I joined the LDS church and your book was the first one I bought on my way out.

Merry Christmas to you!

jim