Mormon: Mormonism, the Death Cult

Subject:

Mormonism, the death cult

Date:

Aug 09, 2005 15:35

Author:

Tal Bachman

Mormonism is, in the end, a death cult.

Now, just before all you TBM lurkers start feeling pride at being so unique and "peculiar" (in the Petrine sense), or glorying in "persecution", I ought to point out that there is nothing unique about any genuine cult being a death cult, for in the name of life, every single one of them ends up worshipping death in their own way: Islam, Nazism, the J Dubs, the Jonestown people, the Solar Temple people, the Heaven's Gate people, the Mormons, all of them. I might say that if anything is sacred, life is, and therefore, all of those cults constitute the ultimate in blasphemy, Mormonism not excepted.

That Mormonism is a death cult in the end is true in many senses, broad and specific. For example, the ultimate sacrament ritual, symbolized by the partaking of the bread and water, is the sacrifice of Christ's body as a means of uniting all (worthy) humankind together, and humankind with God. And as Paul makes clear (in an almost gleeful kind of way), each human being must re-enact Christ's sacrifice not just through taking the bread and water, but through the annihilation of his/her own humanity, that is, the "crucifixion of their own flesh" (see, e.g., Galatians 5, Romans 6, etc.). While Mormonism seeks to sidestep the blatantly macabre aspects of the Catholic focus on crucifixion and death by cheerily offering up glib slogans about worshipping the “risen” Christ versus the slain Christ and refusing to place crosses on its churches, at its core it posits the same things as Catholicism and all Christianity does: there was once a golden age of innocence and virtue - the human race fell - it is only through the human sacrifice/deicide of Jesus of Nazareth that we can begin to overcome natural filthiness.

But Joseph’s cult, as in so many other ways, takes this to a whole new level of weirdness and invidiousness. We have as Mormons the obligation of murdering all those parts of our humanity which can’t in the end squeeze into the church’s unusually constricting mould of the “ideal” male and female. In other words, cult righteousness equals de-humanization. The “natural man is an enemy to God”. Feminists must become Mollies. “Los machos” must give up the motorcycle tours, Metallica, and Maxim magazine, and Ned Flanderize themselves. Those with some sense of autonomy must overcome their “rebelliousness” and submit every last aspect of their lives to priesthood “authority”. Homosexuals must become heterosexuals, or at least, are required to spend their lives killing off what now appears to be an innate proclivity. Males and females who would rather remain childless must overcome this “wicked tendency”, and reproduce. Those who see wisdom in waiting to marry, see wrongly - they must marry when they are young. They don’t know what is best for them.

Social liberals must become social conservatives. Those women who think they might be more attractive with two earrings in an ear, those men who fancy tattoos, must not indulge themselves. We must kill off our own tastes, our own innate predispositions, our own feelings and longings and ambitions and dreams and conclusions - our own conscience - everything that makes us the miracles we are. Each one of us is a “self” - and we must kill off that self. We must turn ourselves into fodder for the machine, just to keep it going. In a cult, no one is an end in and of his/herself. No one is a "fellow human being, period" - we are all means, means to some end. We are not humans to be loved and embraced just as we are; we are “people who have yet to achieve what they should”. Evaluation of how far we have, and everyone else has to go to achieve whatever end we imagine each should be achieving, then becomes the prism through which all social life is experienced. In allowing this, we cut ourselves from the ability to feel that “philanthropos”, or brotherly/sisterly love, which was what the whole cult was supposed to be about in the first place. But they never are in the end about that, because they are all frauds. In the end, they are about the destruction of all that could be considered humanity, since the realization of the selfish ambitions and stupid delusions of the cult leader is completely incompatible with the existence of humanity, with the preservation of human nature. Humanity must be annihilated.

Once I longed to be a martyr for the church (in Argentina, on my mission). When that didn’t pan out and I returned home, I myself undertook to effect just that demolition of my own uniqueness and character in its service. I hardened myself against embarrassment when asked in public about polygamy or temple garments or man’s eventual deification. I censored my thoughts, my words, my own feelings. I read the Heber C. Kimball and Jedediah Grant sermons in which they proclaimed proudly that they loved the prophet more than they had ever loved any of their wives. They announced that any wife of theirs who would disobey the prophet would be ejected from their families. I knew that was where my own devotion to the church had to be. I had taken a vow of consecration; I had to be willing to sacrifice anything - all my money, my children, my wife, my life - for the cult. And guess what? I made it, to a surprising degree. I myself, just as all others have, became the happy agent of the destruction of my own humanity. So, my children weren’t “my children” so much as they were “future priesthood holders”, “future Eagle scouts”, “future missionaries”, “future married-in-the-temple people”, etc. They were everything but what they themselves, through the miraculous course of nature, were: unique, breathtakingly complex wonders of creation, valuable in their own right, HUMAN BEINGS whose worth had NO tie to their future “progress” within some sterile, sicko sect piggybacking on to Christianity while demonizing every other manifestation of it in its founding documents. When I looked at my children, I saw them in a way as expressions of my own ego. They would not fail. They would become righteous Mormons. That to a large degree was why I loved them. They were means to the end of me ultimately believing that I'd been a fantastic father, evidenced by my children having become just as much slaves to the thing as I had become.

Light outside the cult illuminates, in the most flattering way, all those cliches we used to laugh at so much, or in some cases, used to Mormonize. “Each one of us is a miracle”, “Everyone is special”, “All we have is each other”, “Love makes the world go round”, even lifetime criminal Rodney King’s much-mocked question: “Why can’t we all just get along?”. That now seems like the greatest question ever asked, and one we probably ought to be searching out an answer for. (And no, the answer is not, “because we are not all Mormon, or Jehovah’s Witness, or Muslim”, etc.). Questions like “How do we get John and Mary to better serve the church?” (that is, “how do we get them to more fully annihilate their natures so as to further the ends of my cult?”) have now, deo gratias, been replaced by questions which do NOT rest on the completely fallacious assumptions of cult fanatisicm (like the infinite malleability of human nature, absolute knowledge via feelings, the solution for all life’s problems is global conversion to Mormonism, etc.).

Once we begin to see that, really, all we do have is each other, and that the ceiling of our own mortal consciousness prohibits clear answers about the purpose of life, who or what might be running the universe, etc., we begin to ask questions like, “How can we live so as to get along better with each other? How do we best alleviate suffering? How do we most effectively bless the lives of our fellow human beings? How can I help leave the world a better place than I found it?”. What is so peculiar now is that it is precisely THOSE questions which yield the best chance of leading to answers which will truly help life to flourish, to be lived to its full potential. It is the insatiable demands and mean, cheap, petty questions of cults based on claims which have NO evidence to support them, like those of Mormonism, which seem to do the most damage to life.

How can that be? In the name of life, they destroy life; in the name of the ideal, they grind you up, and then leave you behind like so much dross. And God help you if you ever reveal that you have come to believe that the Mormon project is misguided, and based on Joseph’s original deceptions. Daniel Peterson has devoted his entire life to the church. What would happen if he ever expressed doubt? His fellow colleagues would first express “sadness”, and then go about the job of smearing his character, metaphorically killing him. They'd have to, to keep themselves in that psychological state upon which we grew so dependent. It wouldn't matter if he was right - in fact, the more correct he was, the more vicious the attacks would be.

In the end, the church doesn’t care about any life except its own. It views as its mortal foe every aspect of humanity, which it cannot control. In fact, in this sense, the entire cosmos, the whole structure of reality, is “anti-Mormon” (since Mormonism is out of alignment with what it purports to be synonymous with: truth and reality) and so we should cease to be surprised when the church murders historical facts for Joseph, as it does on its new website, murders archaeological and genetic and linguistic facts for the Book of Mormon, murders - through all the anti-depressant prescriptions handed out by LDS Social Service headshrinkers - the conscience of women who keep sensing there is something wrong, or who acknowledge to themselves that they are miserable, etc., etc.

And of course, in the end, it doesn’t even really care at all when its missionaries are literally murdered for it. The church ignored the many death threats issued by Bolivian terrorists against Mormon missionaries; it ignored the bombs left at La Paz chapels; it ignored the firebombing; and left the missionaries there in La Paz. Then, after the assassination of Elders Ball and Wilson, the church left its missionaries there just the same as always, just as they had after the warnings started coming in. And Hinckley went to Wilson’s funeral, once his bullet-riddled body arrived back in Utah in a coffin, and said, “It doesn’t really matter how long we live in this life”, and then left, accompanied by his bodyguards.

The Mormon church, for all its shiny, happy photo models, can only survive when all that we would associate with being truly human, and all we would associate with reality, is killed off. It must eradicate to stay alive, and the sooner I cease hearing about grown men cowing to the threats of their wives and agreeing to keep quiet, when their children are being brainwashed and having all that is potentially most unique and valuable about them sucked out of them, just to serve Joseph's cult, the better. The truth deserves better than that, and so do our children, for Mormonism is a cult and a fraud, and a million smiles and barbecues and fake friends won't change that.

Just my 200 cents,

T.

 

Subject:

'....and then left, accompanied by his body guards.' Powerful image.

Date:

Aug 09 16:01

Author:

a thought

Amazing that these men can be so callous with someone else's son. I shudder to think of men who think so little of this life leading the youth into longing for the next life.

Perfect recipe for cult driven atrocities. These young men died because of a myth and a con. It is for this very reason that many of us cannot leave the church alone. It is a destructive force in disguise.

Thanks Tal.

 

Subject:

Re: '....and then left, accompanied by his body guards.' Powerful image.

Date:

Aug 09 16:36

Author:

kg68

Thanks for this Tal. There are many great contributors to this Board, and in my opinion, you are one of the best! This will go into my favorites file to read again and again!

 

Subject:

Re: Mormonism, the death cult

Date:

Aug 09 16:51

Author:

PtLoma

Your conclusion reminds me of an (in)famous line from the play "Sister Mary Ignatius Explains It All For You", which I saw in the early 1980s in Los Angeles with Lynn Redgrave in the starring role.

A group of former students comes back to confront their 1960s parochial school teacher. One is a single mother (of two brilliant scholarship students), one got a divorce (but raised three kids single-handedly after hubby bailed), one is gay, and only one is still a practicing Catholic, though he beats his wife, is an alcoholic, and abuses his kids.

Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, Sister Mary Ignatius exclaims, "But you're free of mortal sin...you can look forward to death!!"

PS it was great meeting you on Sunday. I like the way you think.

 

Subject:

Dang that was eloquent!

Date:

Aug 09 17:30

Author:

Opie

I've long believed that the church crushes the individuality out of its members along its road of self perpetuation.

I did not pursue a career path based off of my talents and interests because I felt that it would be to 'worldly' and wouldn't be conducive to my LDS worldview.

Members are regularly given callings in their ward or branch not because they are talented or interested in doing that particular thing, but because that’s what the church TELLS them to do.

Right on, Tal.

O

 

Subject:

Re: we can't forget...

Date:

Aug 09 18:13

Author:

tacochip

that, while the church promotes the death of the self, it also overtly promotes physical death as well. Danites, MMM, blood atonement, theocratic wars, and support for Christian Zionist military mass murder going on today.

 

Subject:

Re: Mormonism, the death cult

Date:

Aug 09 21:53

Author:

ivcarol

To Tal:I am a nevermo that lurks the board, I have a dear friend that is a Molly, and I am piling up information to prove to her what a cult she is involved with.. ANYWAY, Thank you so much for your post, tis' inspired and tremendously insightful, and will make a wonderful addition to my argument. Thanks again. Best wishes always.

 

 

Subject:

It's been hard to find time to post anything here lately,

Date:

Aug 10 04:38

Author:

Latter Daze

but I can't let this one go. Tal, you are 100% correct and this post really does deserve its own archive. Thanks for putting what has been in my head (and apparently everyone else's) up on this board! There's some stuff that I would add to it but since I have to get up way freakin' early I had better get some sleep and stew over it later.

I also have one question I wanted to ask you the other day. How did your older children react to your family quitting Mormonism? Did any of them rebel or experience any kind of Morg-induced identity crisis similar to the stuff we adults went or are going through?

LD/Jennifer (still trying to figure out who she is)

 

 

Subject:

Mr. Tal Bachman squares off against those who "cower" to our TBM wives...

Date:

Aug 14 00:40

Author:

Noggin

Well, Tal. Tell me how you really feel.

"...and the sooner I cease hearing about grown men cowing to the threats of their wives and agreeing to keep quiet, when their children are being brainwashed and having all that is potentially most unique and valuable about them sucked out of them, just to serve Joseph's cult, the better. The truth deserves better than that, and so do our children, for Mormonism is a cult and a fraud, and a million smiles and barbecues and fake friends won't change that..."

It can't be said any other way. The message is clear. There is no hidden double secret code meaning in that post that low blood sugar levels induced by fasting or... even prayers to a dreamed up god will reveal to me differently.

If one values family and is not willing to make a stand even if it means staring at the great divide of divorce for the exmo moral imperatives, you aren't worthy here. At least, quit posting about it because Tal is growing weary of hearing about it. Those in the cute and "put up with" Faux-mo status are not welcome...

...the truth deserves better than that

"The Truth" has become an entity unto itself that I must serve now? I serve the cohesiveness of family within the four walls in my home. I admire that you and your wife were able to leave together. It is a reflection of your marriage. Not everyone is that fortunate to have

1. the level of communication you and your wife enjoy
2. trust in each other to that degree
3. a spouse who will even listen to the truth

I lauded you this morning when you shared your story about how your wife reacted to your bombshell. I guess you do not realize that what transpired between your wife and yourself was rare. I still applaud it, celebrate it, but don't demean others who are in different scenarios.

When the three conditions I listed above exist, concessions must be made for the marriage to work. Some major ones and some minor ones. I can't expect you to grasp this as you are not living it like I am.

Get some perspective, Mr. Bachman.

So, if I hear (oops... read) you correctly, the concessions made to a wife who puts up with my new religious world view (or lack thereof) are now seen as acts of "Cowering"? Get real. Coming out and calling a man basically spineless for holding together what he can in his life is... I am too floored to grab the appropriate adjective presently. Tal, you must have spoken out of the heat of the moment. Regardless, you do feel that way. Eric K did archive your thread indicating that he too supports the view. You are the keynote speaker at the exmo conference. Just try to avert your eyes if it bothers you that much.

Don't get me wrong. It is an excellent point. But dammit, there is not much I can do about it. Getting out, resigning and never going back to the chapel that reeks of stale Cheerios will push my marriage over the cliffs! Many in my situation do not pay tithing, do not support the church activities, hold low level callings if any at all, do not attend the temple, do not wear garments, and attend sporadically to help with kids in church. We protest in our own significant ways.

Holy freaking ticking time bombs batman.

As if my situation grates on the likes of other humans here. Wow. I did not know it was so. I am half way thinking as to whether I should apologize for being the cause for annoyance by seeking lifelines in my posts on this board as I can. Throw me a bone, dude. Where, then, do you suggest is the appropriate place for the likes of me to go for moral support? FAIR LDS? My bishop? My TBM father? My TBM uncle? My TBM sisters? They all think I am nuts for being outspoken about the church! It is all about perspective, Tal.

When you see my "Noggin" handle... just don't click on it.

Noggin
(Mike)

 

Subject:

I don't think Tal meant to offend anybody

Date:

Aug 14 01:03

Author:

anon

Everybody's situation is different. I am glad there are a mix of opinions and people here. It makes people who may be in Noggin's and others situations feel more welcome. This board is to support everyone hurt by mo-ism. So I hope you don't quit posting. Either of you (noggin or tal bachman). I happen to enjoy both your opinions on things.

 

Subject:

Re: I don't think Tal meant to offend anybody

Date:

Aug 14 02:09

Author:

Emma

I agree. I don't think he was that serious about it. Atleast I hope not. Tal should realize that having insiders in the Morg is a good thing. We will be the ones to educate the others in our own little way. My children will know all the real church history and will be able to teach the other children. I would think more exmormons would applaud us that live the double life because we will be the ones that TBM's might listen to. Once you are full on Apostate they will turn their backs on us and not listen to a word we say. Even though I live the double life I don't pay my tithing, I dont bear my testimony, I don't teach false history, and I don't give talks or do anything that causes me to lose myself and true feelings.
I do this to keep my family together, but also to educate others in my own sly way. I am also trying to keep my friends that I love and extended family happy.

 

Subject:

I can't claim any nobility for standing up and walking away

Date:

Aug 14 02:20

Author:

Nightingale

Given that I was a non-American non-BIC short term mouthy convert, the church was pretty happy to see the back of me, it seemed. I haven't been too vocal about defending "truth" or anything, partly because I have no creds as a feminist, gay or so-called intellectual, lol, and I have no name recognition either.

I didn't have some big epiphany and then start proclaiming truth from the mountaintops. I didn't wade through a pit of rattlesnakes or a pool of gators. I didn't have to face the prospect of losing my job, my friends, my spouse, my family.

No sirree. My exit needed no strategy nor courage.

I just plain couldn't stand to sit through one more Mormon SM.

So I didn't.

There have been few negative consequences (lost some TBM friends) and many positive ones (like making friends here).

But I can't really say it's easy and everybody else should just walk away like I did. Because fortunately for me, my family was on the outside of the mo door. That is not the case for so many exmos.

Each to his own, in his own time.

This is not to say I don't enjoy a darn good rant about standing up for truth though. Cuz I do. :)

 

Subject:

Sometimes theoretical statements are made without thought for the flesh and blood in amongst the pixels

Date:

Aug 14 02:05

Author:

Nightingale

I admit I often have an emotional reaction when somebody makes negative comments about converts, cuz I happen to be one (formerly).

Hey, it's hard enough to defend a decision to dive into a Mormon font as an otherwise rational and high functioning adult, without reading posts about "low quality" people being the only ones desperate or stupid enough to convert to Mormonism.

If I read such comments, I feel a variety of negative reactions and maybe get all defensive and feel like I need to write a post to stick up for myself (and maybe I should, to try and help people see the other side of the story). If/when I do respond, they will often say well, they didn't mean *me* or yeah, maybe not *all* converts are "losers" or whatever.

My point is that it's easy to make a statement in *theory* or a sweeping generalization that falls apart when you apply it to an actual living breathing human, especially as you find out more about their unique situation.

It's easy to just throw the word "spineless" around (I see it a lot on this board) but if someone speaks up to explain their circumstances, most people would likely say "Well, yeah Noggin, *you're* not spineless.

The other aspect that is ever-present around here is that many of us are in flux and are growing and changing. We could have a really strong opinion about something one week and totally change our minds the next. Exiting Mormonism can be a very slow process. For many of us it takes some time to move away from black/white towards all the greys and to be comfortable there.

I feel compassion for everybody on all sides of everything and think that generally people do the best they can at the time. There are many ways to fight a battle; we have to each figure out what works best for our individual circumstances.

I think it's great that you are willing to talk about your situation and state your opinions; we can all learn important things from seeing another's viewpoint.

I think you're in exactly the right place to get the understanding and moral support you need in your Mormon trials. There's no one right way to do it - I think that is something most of us can agree on.

From all the posts I've read from men in the compromise mode like you, Noggin, I have seen that the ones who take it slow and are able to keep their marriage together, whether their wife leaves with them or not, are usually glad they chose the course they did.

I must say that as a new convert, when I first heard the "fake it til you make it" mantra re giving "testimony" I was shocked (because it's such a major LIE) and often had the thought as I looked around SM, "what if *everybody* is faking it and this whole room is full of people who don't even believe what they preach?" *Very* spooky feeling. And maybe it was true?

So it would be easy for me to say what each one of them *should* have done (because I would have been really ticked to know that NOBODY believed ANYTHING) but who can say what someone else should do? I think we can usually only say what worked for us.

 

Subject:

I appreciated Noggin's post as much as Tal's...

 

Subject:

I just re-read the thread in question in its own context

Date:

Aug 14 02:34

Author:

Nightingale

I get the impression the writer is directing his ire at the Mormon church and not at the individual non-believing male church-goers. I "hear" him saying the sooner that situation, caused by the Mormon church, isn't happening any more, the better he'll like it. IOW, he's directing the blame for the necessity of being faux-mo on the church, not the individual whose life as he knows it hangs in the balance due to the rigid unforgiving uncompromising non-family oriented doctrines and practices of the Mormon church.

Or not. I could be reading something into it that isn't there. But I sure don't take it as a slur against the men struggling to hold their families together in the face of the relentless Mormon machine.

 

Subject:

Raising my hand to accept some responsibility

Date:

Aug 14 02:51

Author:

síóg

I haven't seen the thread Noggin is referring to, just having logged on. But I will say that I encouraged Tal, when I met him on Sunday night, to reiterate his message, one he sent a couple of months ago.

I was spurred to do so by reading a post a week or so ago by someone who, having learned the truth, had decided he had to continue to live a lie because his wife had laid down the law.

Many here found the post heart-breaking. I could see that, but I was also alarmed at the willingness of the poster to give up himself in order to keep his wife's threats at bay.

I don't know anyone's situation, and I acknowledge we're all different and respond differently to our needs and drives.

But I can't see the point of sacrificing one's sanity to the cult because of the unreasonable demands of a spouse. Nor can I see how a parent who loves his or her children can allow their children's psyches to be distorted by the extortion of a TBM spouse. I know -- how bitterly do I know! -- the damage done to children by the rigidity and lies and demands by the cult that one give up oneself and the harm done by mentally ill and controlling parents.

How can any sane and loving parent stand by silently under the pretense of saving his or her family and allow their children to be harmed that way?

HOW???

I'm 54 years old and still recovering from that! You love your children and you want to allow that shit to happen to them? Where is your self respect?

I address no one specifically, only in general those who feel they have to submit to TBM demands in order to "save" their families.

When I read Tal's post a couple a months ago in which he urged fathers not to give into the blackmail of TBM spouses, I thought it was one of the sanest things I'd seen here. And when I had the good fortune to meet him Sunday night, I urged him repeatedly to keep repeating that message.

So here I stand. I didn't have the experience or the wisdom to write it. But I urged Tal to keep posting it. If you're going to blast him, know that I encouraged him to post what offends you.

 

Subject:

My marriage comes first

Date:

Aug 14 07:08

Author:

Emma

I understand both sides of this problem. I realize the implications this can have for my children if they are active members. Here is why I am not worried. I don't think they will get testimonies of the church with the real history I will be teaching them. They can't end up devastated like me because the church lied to them. They have been given all the facts and can choose to believe. I know that the chances of them getting a testimony once they learn the truth is slim to none. (unless they have the mind of an apologist-scary thought)

I do admit that part of me is afraid of coming out to the whole family. I know that I will be the black sheep and will be treated like one of Satans angels. That's the reality of living in a TBM world. I also am very sensitive to my Grandparents, and many relatives that look up to me. This will break their heart. I don't want them judging me unfairly but I also have no desire to go and crush my Grandparents testimonies at their age. They have served the church their entire life. There is no way I can come out of the closet without preparing all the people I love with the truth.

I went semi inactive all summer and it made me feel very sad for my devoted husband to go alone to church. He would dress up the kids and go without me. He also filled in for my calling every Sunday during my hardest months of this recovery. He is going to take them regardless and I feel we may as well go as a family. My children will hopefully respect my opinion of the history I teach them. (they are too little right now to know)

I have gone back and forth each month. I think one day I am going to march straight in to the Bishop's office and tell him I am done with the church. But then I realize the reality is my whole community will find out, then all my relatives and so on. I have to prepare them first. You can't get a TBM to listen if they think you have left the church. It's better to voice concerns in a doubting way than to abruptly leave. This is my plan and I am sticking to it. :) I hope my husband will be honest with himself as he reads the history, but if not, I love him more than anything and I will not let the Morg destroy our marriage.

I believe he will see the truth and then we will get the heck out of that dark and dreary dirty diaper smelling chapel.

 

Subject:

Joe Smith's family

Date:

Aug 14 07:46

Author:

HTBO

Do you think Joe Smith considered the effect it would have on *his* family (Emma) when he decided to spill the beans about "the new and everlasting covenant" of spiritual wifery? What was more important to him, holding his family together or risking it all and letting his tiny little weenie go wild under the guise of religion? Sick moron.

 

Subject:

Re: Mr. Tal Bachman squares off against those who "cower" to our TBM wives...

Date:

Aug 14 10:47

Author:

butch cassidy

Forgive me if this seems harsh, but may I be so bold as to ask...

If I am confident that the church is a fraud, and can see the harm it does to people emotionally, financially, spiritually, physically...

And I have any degree of self-respect at all...

Am I not enabling the whole thing and abandoning those I profess to love if I don't take some sort of stand?

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not suggesting that you say to your spouse, "Look, Joseph lied and this whole thing is a crock and if you can't see it hit the road." That would be a much too mormon approach.

I thought for some time that I could go along to get along, but living a lie starting getting to me, and I realized it would actually take years off of my life if I kept it up.

So, I quit pussy footing around, and told my very TBM wife and family in as kind a way as I could but in no uncertain terms exactly where I stood. There was much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, which I just sort of let happen. I stood my ground with a figurative smile on my face, made sure she knew I loved her and wanted to be with her, but not if I had to be untrue to who I now was.

It took a while, and she is still adjusting to some things, but she decided that who I am is more important than any labels I can wear.

But I had to value myself first and not waver. She then was able to see the value in me and us and recognize it as being greater than mormonism. Had she not made that choice, why would I stay?

 

Subject:

Good point, butch

Date:

Aug 14 11:01

Author:

HTBO

That's a good point, butch. In the long run, you're just enabling; perpetuating the fraud and asking for all the harmful consequences it will have on your children. Look at us adults who soaked it all up when we were kids and how it still affects us.

Don't delay making sincere and positive changes. The best thing you can do for your loved ones is to be true to yourself. Time's a wastin'!

 

Subject:

Perhaps

Date:

Aug 14 11:11

Author:

ink

Perhaps he values his marriage above exposing his family to the fraud of the church? I can't claim to understand that position, but there are several exmos who share it (like Code7). If you cut down the church to the bare minimum you can have a calling that only consumes a few hours of time per week, plus the 3-hour marathon -- it's still a small percentage of your overall free time. It's not the end of the world.

Now, I don't think I could do that to *my* wife (because it's basically lying to her, in my opinion) but I can understand why others might choose to do it. Perhaps the fears that Noggin perceives outweigh any possible benefit from taking action. The question is, are the fears well founded? Speaking from my experience, the answer is 'no'; but my situation is not his.

Good luck, Noggin! :-)

 

Subject:

Re: Perhaps

Date:

Aug 14 11:18

Author:

HTBO

True, although the time spent per week is the least of worries. Rather, it's the deep feeling, emotion, connection, habit patterns, identity, and more that are mixed in with the nonsense and become a part of one's personality and reason for being, especially at an impressionable age.

 

Subject:

Save your own life and your kids and...

Date:

Aug 14 11:17

Author:

Adios

what about everyone else in the family?

You are right to stand your ground and demand to be respected. Reading the posts in this thread made me think about all the others in the family, parents, cousins, aunts and uncles.

I've sat through countless family reunions and thanksgiving dinners thinking what a bunch of morons I'm dealing with here. No one discusses the fact that 1/3 of us are "in-active."

When children are involved and they are your/my kids I can see the point. But dealing with adults and the children of others is non of our business and makes us no better than those pesky home/visiting teachers on a re-activation mission.

I'm with you 100% that mormonism is a fraud, and if any one asks me I will gladly tell them how I feel. But I'm not about to interfere with someone else's immediate family. Respect goes both ways.

 

Subject:

Tal, you were damned lucky to marry Mrs. Tal. Not everyone on this board was that fortunate

Date:

Aug 14 11:39

Author:

Matt

Some people on this board have a wife or husband that would, if they told them the truth about how they feel about TSCC, would react very badly.

Tal, it's an error to mistake your reality for that of other people.

 

Subject:

to those of you who are faux mo

Date:

Aug 14 11:40

Author:

anon

Do you guys deter visitors who come to church from joining? I think that would be awesome if you guys did. Just get their number, invite them to do something and tell them how awful the church really is and how you are stuck in it! It could be like anti-mo fellowship! Just an idea. I understand why you guys are still there, and that is fine by me. I am not sure how many of your spouses would really divorce you. If they aren't willing to read an "anti" book, I am not so sure they are willing to file papers, but I don't know you guys or your spouses so I can't sit back and judge. You could just remind them that they would still be sealed to you and there is no way you would pull them through the veil and that if they are female anyway they can't get sealed to another man without breaking your sealing. So there eternal future is shot anyway. I am just rambling now, but keep posting here you guys. I think you all esp. need an outlet and that is what this board is for! Hopefully one day you can get your spouses out. Until then, just make sure you kids know the facts and help them stay out!

 

Subject:

I admire you for walking that thin line.

Date:

Aug 14 11:45

Author:

cheeseburger

I see a reflection of my own situation in yours. While you are married to a TBM, I am married to a staunch, fundie-like christian who would abhor my evolving agnostic, exotic philosophies. Most likely our marriage would tank if the full truth of my heresy were known.

I'd rather that not happen. I have a little boy.

Noggin, you love your wife, though she doesn't see things the way you do. (let's add a hopeful "yet".) Tal, you love your wife, and she DOES see things the way you do.

Both of you are lucky.

I think lately on the board there's been too much criticism of other's path out of the LDS church. Some of us are able to drive out on newly-laid tarmac, and others of us have to slide on our bellies through the underbrush. At least we're going.

 

Subject:

go Noggin

Date:

Aug 14 11:59

Author:

Secret Agent exMo

When I read that post, and that little bit there, it seemed very Brigham Youngish to me. I mean, I read it as, "Stop letting your wife rule the roost. YOU are the man! Tell your wife who's the boss, with all your priesthood powers and everything. Stupid bitch!"

Then I read the rest of Tal's post, and realized the man was on one big rant. A Binge and Purge if you will. All he needed was 30 or so F-bombs in there and it would have been one of the best binge and purges ever done. I understand the need to do up a good binge and purge now and again. And a good binge and purge does NOT take into account any other persons feelings. It is in fact a very selfish thing, but hey, so what.

You did up a mighty fine counterpoint there Noggin. I think what I would add is that often people post to the net their feelings on a subject or experience, and those postings often include ideas that are never said outside of the keyboard. And so it doesn't create a whole picture of the situation. In other words, you can't assume anything about a person or situation based on internet posts only. It is a very incomplete and scattered mess of pixels.

 

Subject:

Encouragement for husbands afraid to be open with their children and wives

Date:

Aug 15 21:28

Author:

Tal Bachman

I continue to be torn over the question of what to think about husbands who have decided to keep their mouths shut, for fear of causing divorce, about the cult their children are being raised in - a cult, which as I mentioned in another post a month or so ago, would very literally rather see your son come home dead from his mission, than make public the FACTS about its history which it is currently hiding in its archives, and which are relevant to the question of whether Joseph tales were true or not. Those amiable, avuncular GA's we like to pretend are so benign, would rather your child get shot than find out it's a fraud. Why are we deluding ourselves? So we can justify our unconscionable lack of firmness?

But, I'm torn. On the one hand, I don't want to be judgmental; on the other, I think it is absolutely sick that a grown man would allow his children to grow up being indoctrinated with a whole series of lies, lies which our own flesh and blood will reference for all of the most important decisions of their lives: when to marry, how many children to have, who to marry, who to donate money to, what to do for a living, which university to attend, what to risk your life for, etc.

And while I completely understand how terrifying it is to think of family break-up, especially when (to speak frankly) all of us guys have been raised in a church which in important ways inhibited the development of our own sources of emotional strength as males, it still strikes me as profoundly wrong that any man should be dissuaded from a moral duty (namely, protect your children) because of a wife's threats.

Does that sound macho? Probably. So, I'm kind stuck. It's lose - lose - lose. I'm either judgmental, or macho, or, if I talk about my own experience, which as it happens, had a happy ending, I might sound boastful, though I'm relieved, not proud.

But since I've already done a good job of sounding like a judgmental misogynist anyway, I might as well mention my own experience. Maybe it will encourage some other guys out there to stop being bullied into keeping quiet about the one thing that you should NOT keep quiet about - the mental and emotional welfare of your children.

I spilled my guts to my wife. I offered to go through everything with her, all the church stuff that is, and talk it all over. She did her own research, realized what was up, and basically had a nervous breakdown. A few times she got angry at me for "pulling her out of the Matrix". As a result of all the up and down stuff, we ended up pretty emotionally estranged by July/August of 2004.

Last night, we went out for dinner. She gave me a birthday card that said, "Thank you for saving my life". She went on to say that she had felt (prior to finding out about the church) that she "was dying a slow death", but couldn't figure out why. The journey out had been terrible, but now she was happier than ever. She teared up.

A few weeks ago, I told her that sometimes I felt as though I hadn't accomplished much in life. She looked at me and said, "You got us out of a cult", and then gave me a huge hug. (RIGHT ON!)

I remember clearly, right after I told her in November of 2003, that if she wanted, I'd keep my mouth shut and stay in forever, keep the whole thing going. In those moments of terrible fear and vulnerability, I couldn't imagine how I could ever risk losing the thing that mattered most to me.

But the passing of some time lent more clarity to what Mormonism really is, what it does to you, emotionally and mentally and even spiritually, and to what we had become because of it...and I woke up one morning thinking, "No matter what she said to me, I'd never go back; and if she ever said she would end our marriage because I wouldn't live a lie, or in effect lie through omission to my children about everything that is most important in life, I'd say 'If that's what our marriage is really about for you - cult allegiance - rather than you and me and our love together, then do whatever you want.'"

I never did say this to her, though, because it didn't come to that. But I would have, and I would have meant it, though of course it would have been terrible to go through a divorce, especially with seven little children.

I know another guy on here who also took the risk of leveling with his children despite his wife's fear-based threats, and has had the identical result. They are happier than ever (she finally agreed to listen to him once she saw he wouldn't back down. She's now out, too).

I don't know what we're doing as dads if we're not trying to prepare our children for adult life, trying to protect them for people who would take advantage of their innocence - like Joseph Smith and his successors - and I can't believe that if some loon tried to take advantage of our kids, and our wives objected and started threatening and throwing tantrums, that we'd just kind of cave in to "maintain peace". Our kids' minds are being pounded every Sunday with "Follow the Prophet", a song truly worthy of Jonestown or Nazi Germany, absolutely the WRONG preparation for life in the 21st century, and they are bing taught to recite a litany of lies, like that they "know" that Joseph Smith is a "true prophet", and that the creator of the universe will only be happy with them if they shove their consciousness, their entire lives, into the ever-shrinking box that is Mormonism.

How much heartache has the world seen because men stood by and kept their mouths shut while other men were preying on the vulnerable, and using fear tactics to scare them into submission? It is in the power of every husband on here to stop this sick cycle in his own home and level, with as much love and understanding as possible, with those who need him the most.

Now dammit, I want to hear some success stories, not a bunch of exuses!

Good luck!

T.

 

Subject:

Tal, read the post from my wife, Wife of Mr. Apostate

Date:

Aug 15 21:51

Author:

Mr. Apostate

She for one was willing to listen and then learn.

She is not out of the woods yet, but has come very far on her journey to finding sanity outside of that thing that people here in Utah only know as "the church."

 

Subject:

A tale of two brothers...

Date:

Aug 15 22:28

Author:

Alyosha

Well here is a success story, kind of.

I left Mormonism about 20 years ago. I had an epiphany of sorts and realized that it wasn't true. This was a after a mission, temple marriage and 3 kids. My wife was a foreign convert and continued to go to Church. She was upset at how the members reacted to my apostasy and came home one day after a troubling Relief Society lesson on the topic. She told me that it couldn't be true, as I was a "good man" (in her foreign accent). She chose her marriage with me over the Church. We went on to raise our kids out of Mormonism and ended up moving to the East coast. We have been married close to 30 years.

My brother was married to a TBM and also wanted to leave about the time I did. He was told that it was either the Church or a divorce. He caved in to her demands. She still brags to all the family about how stalwart she was. They have become very active in their ward, many callings, and all kids serving mission or temple marriage. He has been able to capitalize financially on his position in the Church. He is secure and well thought of in his community.

His wife came and stayed with us a few days not too long ago. I was shocked at how childish and manipulative she was. Conversation were forced, awkward and superficial. I realized that after all this time, I have nothing in common with either of them, except a distant path that we once shared.

I saw my wife, open, caring, pursuing her own genuine interests in art, education, foods, politics, friends and family relations. There was no controlling Church. No need to toot ones own horn of how smart, or righteous, or rich, or great we were.

I'm so glad we chose a different fork in the road, and how those paths have provided us with rich experiences, friendships, political perspectives, foods ... Freedom, to love, grow spirituality, discover beauty, goodness and truth. Life can be a great adventure, if you are willing to listen to your intuition.

There is more that I could say, but I don't want to take any more of your time. I guess that is as close I have ever come to a true testimony.

 

Subject:

Hi Tal, I enjoy your posts

Date:

Aug 15 23:43

Author:

FannyAl

I agree with you but every person is at a different part of their recovery. I noticed on another thread that you have known the church's lies for a few years now. (correct me if I am wrong, I have been reading a lot the last few days) I have only known for 6 months. I know you are speaking to husbands but this applies to wives with TBM husbands as well. If it meant losing my husband, I think would live the double life. You can still be honest with your kids and teach them what the church won't. Lets face it, what chance do they have of believing when they find out what the Celestial Kingdom will be like or Joseph Smith going on treasure hunts.

I am fortunate that I don't have to pretend. My DH is on this journey with me but I can't say if he will come to the conclusion I have. I am still not for sure that I am making the right choice to throw my religion away. I am still attending church (semi actively) and still teaching Primary. The times I go are just for appearances and to avoid telling the Bishop my feelings.(my family is in the Stake) It's not the right time yet. All of my family are TBM and some Pioneer stock. This will break their hearts. I have just begun sharing my disgust for polygamy with them. I want to make sure they understand that I am not leaving the church to sin, and that I have tried everything to overcome what I know. I feel so much guilt when I watch my husband go to church by himself and he gets the kids all dressed up. They want me to go with them. It makes me tear up knowing I have caused our current crisis. (I know I shouldn't blame myself but if I only would have kept that polygamy question out of my mind....)

That said, I can't go back. The things I know are impossible for me to overcome. I don't believe my testimony can be restored, but.....I still am at a stage where I hold out some kind of hope. What if I am wrong? What if there is something I haven't read that would give me some kind of spiritual understanding? Was I too impatient with answers? I also realize that history is just a bunch of pieces-some are half truths or completely false. With all the evidence I have read, the puzzle pieces fit perfectly that the church is a fraud. But, what if my husband has had really strong spiritual experiences and I believe him? I trust him and I know this sounds terrible, but I would follow him back to church if he KNEW it was true because I love him that much and trust in him. I have always looked up to him. I am the cynic in our marriage. I have always been the one to ask the questions about doctrine because I like to analyze and think for myself. My husband is very intelligent but he also is much more spiritual. I have always been a doubter that wanted to believe because I love my Savior and the gospel. I also loved the temple and had very wonderful experiences there. Now that I have read the church history, I don't ever want to go back there. That is why I went to FARMS and FAIR, and prayed with more sincerity than I ever have before. NO answers came. I only felt peace when I decided to "leave" my Faith. I am still in the doubting stage. I doubt myself and my spirit. I worry that something is wrong with me. Am I not worthy enough to receive personal revelation on these things? I am crying out to the Lord for understanding. Has he left me because I hate polygamy and am repulsed by the Prophets? Is it my fault I am not getting answers? This is my stage of recovery.

I don't picture myself attending church 5 years from now if I have decided without a shadow of a doubt it's all a fraud. I don't think all the closet doubters will either. It doesn't last to long. The kids will not gain testimonies even attending church every Sunday if their exmormon parent educates them. (In my opinion) How can anybody want to gain a testimony of a man that lies and cheats?

RFM is a place I come to vent. My husband knows exactly how I feel and I have hidden nothing from him on my search for truth. He knows that I feel so betrayed by the church that I will not overcome it. I don't believe my children will be brain washed unless I keep quiet on everything. That's what my father did to me. I just found out last month that he read every anti Mormon book out there and was a closet doubter my entire childhood. I feel a little upset by him for not telling me the truth. (my parents just wanted us to turn out good) My in laws know some of the polygamy history but yet my husband was never taught anything about this in his home. Were they praying we would never stumble upon the truth? It's sick. I will not hide anything of this from my children.

Thank you for your family's story. I can't say I hope my husband gets out because right now I am so worried I could be wrong. This is more stress than I can handle. It's my eternal salvation and I am so scared. The thing is, there is nothing I would change about my belief in sin and living the commandments. I know that wickedness doesn't bring happiness. I want to be the Mormon I was raised to be. Then on the other side, I know that I can't feel any happiness in the church now. I can't believe in a God and Jesus that treat women as posessions or blacks as inferior. So the Prophets are either false or I don't love God. It's the fear that keeps me lingering. I know I need to jump off that cliff but I haven't reached that point yet. I am slowly climbing down it. I just recently stopped paying my tithing. I will not support dishonesty. I am going to donate my tithing money to charity. This was a very difficult thing to approach my husband about. He was supportive but slightly reluctant. Even if I do attend church, they do not have my financial support and when I teach Primary they are only getting lessons about Jesus. I didn't go to church this week though. Every week I think it will be the time I announce my departure but I still can't do it.

 

Subject:

It's not all puppy dogs and rainbows... but...

Date:

Aug 15 23:59

Author:

antishock8

... I do believe you have to do what you believe is the right thing to do.

Straight to the matter.

I left the Church.
She left me and had an exit affair for good measure.
She left the kids with me six months later.
2 1/2 years later she made a custody move.
$17,000 later I still have the kids primarily.

Was it worth it? Yes. It was. For them. I could never stand by and let my girls be possibly indoctrinated to believe they are subordinate to men, their true place is in the home popping out babies, and to live the rest of their lives within the narrow confines of Mormon dogma. You might was well have shot them, because in either scenario those bright little girls would have been lost... eventually... and what father willingly sacrifices his daughters to a Church that would do that to them in order to maintain a truce at home? Not this one. Not ever. Never. They will never, ever, not once, ever, have to wonder where my loyalty lies. Ever. I love those kids. And so... yes, it was worth it.

But I do understand why some choose a different manner in exiting the Church... they simply hope to hold onto something that was lost to so many... their family. And I can understand the strong desire to keep a family in tact. I do. So. No judgments from me.

 

Subject:

I opened up to my wife...

Date:

Aug 16 00:16

Author:

lost-mo

...on Sunday. It was the most emotionally draining experience of my life. I told her about how I felt about the church; I gave voice to things I've never aired... ever. I told her how I'd felt the church was a crock since I was a teen. How I'd told my parents about my unbelief when I was only 17. Then how my Mum had thrown me out of the house, with Dad's blessing, yelling at me never to come back. Funnily enough I found faith a few months later, went on a mission, married in the temple, never believing, always with a horrible knot in my stomach; feeling guilty for my doubt.
I came clean to my wife. I've lived a lie for 20 years. It's been twenty years since I knew thew truth, but I couldn't leave. My entire family, both sides, my friends, everyone are members. But I told her I couldn't do it anymore. I'm in physical pain everytime I hear a four yr old get up in sacrament and proclaim "I know joseph smith is a true prophet". I can't stand the self indoctrination techniques any longer.
My wife didn't take it well. She suggested I go... so I packed my things. But before I could leave, to where I had no clue, she stopped me. She said she loved me, wanted to know if our temple marriage was a lie. I told her I loved her that day and that she was the most beautiful woman I'd ever seen. We spent the entire day talking, yelling, crying. At one point she suggested we kill ourselves... no shit. However, in the end she told me she still loves me and will support my decision.
For the last couple days I've felt kind of lost and really lonely, it's so weird. But my wife and I are cool now. In a way I've got her to thank. She's always insisted I be "myself" and not some mormon-ideal. Sorry if I've taken up this thread with my woe-is-me drivel, but the chances of me actually coming to this site "and" finding this post right when I needed it... sheesh. Thanks Tal.

 

Subject:

Afraid?????

Date:

Aug 16 00:28

Author:

Craig Paxton

Tal, I hope you know that I have the deepest respect for you. I believe your heart is in the right place...and you only wish the very best for husbands like me who live with the reality of being married to an Uber-Mormo-Nazi-TBM.

I can not speak for anyone else but myself and my experience...but I seriously doubt that the word "Afraid" is appropriate.

My wife is beyond brainwashed....she is fanatic. And God I love her.

I have made many attempts to talk with her about the truths behind Mormonism...and I continue to point out inconsistencies at every opportunity I can in the hope of exposing the fraud. She shuts down and wants to hear none of it.

Yeah sorry but the church has its hooks deep in her. She even once told me that if the church is not what it claims to be...she doesn't want to know because she finds Christ in it...and it serves her needs.

She pleaded with me...not to take that away from her. Afraid? No I'm not afraid...we found a middle ground where neither of us is getting 100% of what we want...its working...and I would prefer this arrangement to not having her in my life.

If any of this sounds like a cop out to you...I'm sincerely sorry...I'm just trying to deal in my own way with the reality I find myself in.

Love Ya Bro,

Craig

 

Subject:

Re: Afraid?????

Date:

Aug 16 00:38

Author:

bona dea

This is a very personal decision with serious consequences in doing it wrong. I was lucky to have left the church when single and that I never had to make the decision. As far as kids, if the wife gets custody, they will be raised as Mormons anyway. I was raised as a Mormon and don't feel that it blighted my life even if it didn't work for me. I think that depends on the parents and how Nazi-TBM their beliefs are. I would be very hesitant to give advice in this area. There are two sides to it and I don't want to be partly responsible for breaking up a reasonably good marriage. The unbeliever has to figure it out for himself.

 

Subject:

Re: Encouragement for husbands afraid to be open with their children and wives

Date:

Aug 16 00:40

Author:

DebbiePA

Sorry, Tal, but you have to hear the excuses, too. I belong to a private mailing list for non-believers who are married to TBMs. I have heard a lot more horror stories than I have successes. Most of the men and women who admit to being non-believers to their TBM spouses end up either "faking it" to keep the family together, or getting divorced.

Sometimes I too, think, "grow some balls," but then I read things like, "I love my children so very much, the thought of not being with them every day tears me apart inside." Or, "I truly love my wife/husband. Other than the Mormon issue, we are perfect together." Or, "I'm hoping that by staying in the marriage I will be able to protect my kids from the more negative aspects of the church." A lot of times that resolve doesn't last long as the cognitive dissonance grows stronger. For every one couple that makes it when one of them leaves the church, there are ten who don't.

You may have heard the words of the GA who said that it doesn't matter if you love the other person when you get married or not, as long as both of you are faithful members, you will be happy together because you are living the gospel. I think this gives Mormons a very warped view of their partner's place in their life. They are led to believe that the position of the spouse within the church is more important to the marriage than the feeling you may have for them or what kind of person they are, and therefore spouses are quite interchangeable. Yours leaves and can't take you to the CK? Find another one. I've heard of several members who got divorced over the church issue whose ex went on to marry within months so that they would have a faithful partner.

The church is only a family-centered institution as long as both spouses remain members. I think we've all heard the stories of the bishops who have counseled the faithful to leave their "apostate" spouse. It happens even now. Each of us has his/her own path, and for some that means "faking it" and for others it means taking the chance of losing all. You're one of the lucky ones whose wife followed him out. Not all of us are quite so lucky.

Debbie

 

Subject:

Re: Encouragement for husbands afraid to be open with their children and wives

Date:

Aug 16 03:15

Author:

Mr. Poopypants

My wife and I are both Return missionaries. I was a secret unbeliever for several year. My wife knew but no-one else. I slowly started doing things differently. Colored shirts instead of white, no tie, not accepting new callings, tell my wife to pay less tithing, only go to sacrament meeting, then wait for the rest of the family at the library. My oldest daughter was just a few months from turning eight, so I began telling her the truth, bit by bit. I was dreading the eigth birthday, because I would either had to baptize her or blow my cover completely, but my wife fixed that. One night in July of 2004 she said she couldn't stand it any longer. One of us would be moving out in the morning with the divorce to follow quickly. I don't think she knew about my subversive discussions with my oldest. I drove her and our four daughters to church each week and didn't bother Mrs. Poopypants about the church, I thought we could respect eachothers beliefs. She however couldn't stand being married to a non believer any more. She said she was done. We stayed up late into the night crying and arguing. The gist of the argument was that since she only wanted to leave me because I was a non-believer but didn't know why I didn't believe she didn't really know root of why she was leaving me. She didnt' want to hear it either, because "she knew what the anti-mormons had to say." Well since it was over I had nothing to lose by not waiting for an invitation, so I started laying it out for her. I told her some of my big concerns with the church. I told her I my goal was not to turn her away from the church, but to have her respect my choices and see that my concerns were valid, and not worth leaving me over. After briefly hearing some of my concerns she agreed to look into them for me. She thought she may be able to resolve my concerns, so the move out was post-poned pending her investigation. She did not talk to me much about her investigation. She must have done most of it while I was at work. After about two weeks I started prying, asking how her investigation was going. Finally I learned that we were would be sticking together, her mind was opening up and she was free too. Nine months later, our fifth child was born.

 

 

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