Mormon: More on the Abuse of Mormon Missionaries

This archived thread is a compilation of three topics on Mormon Missionary work.

1. Apostle Ballard’s “New” promise to missionaries. It is a guilt inducing recycled ‘new’ promise that has never worked.

2. Blaming the missionaries for their failures to convert and retain individuals.

3. Calling elderly Mormons on missions that should be paid positions for working professional people. It is just another way for the Mormon church to afford to buy billion dollar malls, hunting lodges and massive cattle ranches.

Subject:	Elder M. Russell Ballard's "new" promise to missionaries!!
Date:	Aug 18, 2005
Author:	Samuel the Utahnite

We have a Family friend who has a Son on a mission and he sends home a weekly letter that is emailed out to a bunch of us. Well, here is a quote from that letter. I find it sickening that these types of empty promises are made and even worse that the poor missionaries believe them. When it doesn't work out, they feel it was them that didn't come through and that they are unworthy. These jerks will say anything just to pressure these young guys!!

This is just another example of missionary abuse by the cult called the Mormon Church. This is just a good kid, doing his best and I feel very bad for him. Notice how he feels about this "promise."

Here's the quote:

"Our mission president was told by Elder Ballard that "if every missionary talked to 10 unplanned people per day, baptisms in the mission would double." I love promises and we are doing everything that we can to get that. It has been cool. Yesterday we had our mission leadership meeting. It went well. We seem to be trained on the same things over and over, but I guess that they are needed."

Subject:	I hate crap like this.
Date:	Aug 18 07:02
Author:	Stray Mutt

This is the sort of stuff that drove me into fits of self-loathing when the magic didn't work. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that the promise was bogus; it had to be that I was unworthy in some way.

The only thing talking to 10 more strangers a day will accomplish is the annoying of 10 more people and the deflation of the missionaries.

So, Elder Ballard, how many strangers did you approach with the Gospel® today?

Subject:	Re: Elder Ballard's new promise to missionaries!!
Date:	Aug 18 07:59
Author:	Michael

I would love to hear if baptisms actually do double or not.

Subject:	my mission had that same promise ... (cussing)
Date:	Aug 18 09:40
Author:	mathyou

... I'm not sure which GA gave the promise (i.e., it was already implemented before I got there.) Anyway, I had this one really anal companion who followed everything "letter of the law." Here's what happened once:

9:00 p.m. rolls around and we hadn't reached our goal of 10 people/each for the day. I figured that shit happens and we did not reach our goal. So guess what my companion does at our apartment? He whips out the white pages and randomly (err, I mean, "guided by the spirit") picks a phone number and dials it; the other end answers the phone and he says, "Hi, I'm Elder [Jackass] from the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, we share a message that will bring you peace and happiness in today's troubled world." (That "peace and happiness" bit was also a prescribed mission rule, but that's a topic for another thread.)

Anyway, little did my companion realize, that method only made us, as missionaries, look worse for calling on the phone relatively late at night. Obviously that person didn't invite us over to have the discussions.

Subject:	This is such B.S.
Date:	Aug 18 10:04
Author:	Fedayken

My mission in England we were told to do 10 golden questions a day (Hi, what do you know about the Mormon cult, would you like to know more?) and were promised by an area Seventy in a mission meeting that our baptisms would double if we did it. This was 1982.

The MP got up and said "there you have it, Elders. There's the promise". Like fools we sucked it all up like it was manna from heaven being delivered to our feet.

Of course it didn't work and baptisms stayed the same as usual.

Subject:	what is sad, is that when these promises go un-fulfilled...
Date:	Aug 18 10:22
Author:	danboyle

and they always go un-fulfilled, the missionaries are pre-programmed to turn the blame inward. No one thinks to follow up on these outlandish promises. Of course the baptisms won't follow the GA's prediction, but the morg teaches member to look with in themselves to find fault. The crazy predictions lead to more self-loathng by missionaries for failing to live up to some ego-driven GA's promise.

Too bad we (missionaries) were all so well programmed, we could have asked follow up questions at the next zone conference..."Hey, we did all you promised, and the baptisms stayed the same, what gives??" Being good 19 yr old morgbots, we never would have dared ask such and obvious question.

The guilt just keeps on coming, thanks to the morg.

Nice cult...

Subject:	Re: Elder Ballard's "new" promise to missionaries!!
Date:	Aug 18 17:10
Author:	Samuel the Utahnite

It's amazing that they were making this same promise in 1982 Fedayken. I'm not surprised!! They just keep recycling the same crap over and over to new missionaries that don't know any better. When I was in the MTC, we had to stay an extra week for Visa issues but it was amazing to be there that extra week and see the "cycle" start all over again. In other words, the same speakers, with the same exact talks, word for word, were being given our last week that we had heard our first week.

That should have been my first big clue that they weren't inspired. But being that missionary, week #1 in the MTC, we were like, "wow, how spiritual." Then to hear it again 2 months later, we were like..."wow......word for word the same talk and it wasn't as special or spiritual."

It's a complete scam job!! These clowns travel around, from mission to mission....recylcling and using the same exact speech everywhere they go. It's just unbelievable that the "Morg" has lasted as long as it has in any capacity.

There are two great stories about Lynn A Mickelsen on Mormon Curtain, the first one, I'm not sure who wrote it, but the 2nd one was from me and my personal experience with the jerk on my mission. These two stories illustrate just what pompous asses they are and reveal the scam. Whoever wrote the first story on there, it's great!! Thanks to the Internet, we can all talk about this crap now and get it out in the open!!

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_lynnamickelsen.html

Here is a link to my Mickelsen experience that I added a few things to since it was posted on Mormon Curtain:

http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/2005/07/elder-mickelsen-can-see-your-inner.html

But, this latest "promise" by Ballard is exactly what we've all said; just another excuse to blame the missionaries and cut them down. When is the Mormon Church gonna stand up and admit the problem is with them and their History not these poor 19 year olds that sacrifice two years of their life, living in dumps,paying their own way and then getting cut down to the core for not "getting the job done?!!" The answer as we all know, is never!! Is there any really doubt that the Mormon Church is a cult?!! Nope!!

Here are my thoughts on the "real" reason for the missionary program!!

http://mormontruth.blogspot.com/2005/08/real-reason-for-mormon-missionary.html

Subject:	The new-ly recycled promise
Date:	Aug 18 17:27
Author:	exelder

I got the same one in Europe in the late 90's by none other than Ballard himself.

When it was obviously not working, we got lecutred that the spirit of the promise required us to do even more. You see, Ballard couldn't lose and we couldn't win.

Subject:	Elder Didier pulled the same crap
Date:	Aug 20 07:24
Author:	noparole

Elder Didier came to our mission and for nearly three hours he reamed us out. He used 1 Samuel 15 as his text. It is a story about Saul being commanded to destroy the Amalekites and "...spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (BTW, how sick is this story anyway. God commanding his chosen to murder women and children? And we have such contempt for radical muslim terrorists that claim God commanded them to kill us..equally as sick).
Anyway, Saul spares some of the best of the animals for sacrifice and is reprimanded by Samuel who says: "Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams."

He used this and compared us to Saul. Yeah, we were here on a mission, but we weren't totally obedient and therefore we were losers.

I remember how we "marvelled" at his words and how we were humbled and chastised.

Man, looking back I wish I would have stood up and said, "listen here jerk wad, we are out here busting our hump only to have door after door slammed in our face. I could be home attending college and getting on with my life but instead I am here selling your crap for 12 hours a day 6 1/2 days a week. A little "thank you" would be nice!"

Of course I said nothing and continued my mission believing that I wasn't worthy enough to have success.

Subject:	Ballard's still on about that?
Date:	Aug 19 08:15
Author:	ceden

I was in New Mexico '88 to '90. When I arrived they were carrying on in all the district and zone meetings about how he gave his "apostolic" blessing to the mission and that if we'd ask 10 GQs a day (that's 'golden questions') that our baptisms would double. 17 years and he hasn't got new material? Our baptisms didn't double and and I made at least ten people a day wish they hadn't met me.

Incidentally, not long after I went to BYU there was an article in the Student Review by an anonymous RM who claimed that he was an AP in his mission when Ballard showed up and did his spiel. After being chastened by Elder Ballard for not showing enough courage approaching strangers, the missionary said, "Ok, show me." Apparently Ballard took the challenge and promptly choked in front of everyone.

Anyone else ever hear of that?

Subject:	Retention problems Missionaries fault according to Hinckley
Date:	Aug 18 16:08
Author:	Paul

Just happened to glance at the back of the most recent issue of the Ensign and it has a quote from Hinckley blaming the churches retention problems on the missionaries!!!

Quote:
"If there is better teaching in the conversion process, there will be greater retention of those who are baptized."-GBH

First, if the prophet wants better teaching let him and all the apostles and GAs do it. Don't go blaming all these fresh faced, just out of high school, untrained, young men and women who are just trying to do what they believe is right!! The church should be damn grateful for any young person who is willing to give up 2 years of their life at their own expense to con more people into paying money to the morg.

The missionaries can't help it if they are selling a defective and misleading product. Don't blame the missionaries when people leave the church after discovering the things that church leaders so carefully edit out of church publications and deny on national television. Before pointing out the mote in the missionaries eye, Hinckley should try and remove the beam that is stuck in the leaders eye.

Typical mormon leader rhetoric! Blame the members. Lay the guilt on the members. If things aren't going well its all your fault!! It can't be the product or how it is packaged. It can't be the leaderships fault! Their perfect!

Stupid cult.

Subject:	Well, all I can say to that is...
Date:	Aug 18 18:41
Author:	Bob

back in the "good old days" in Europe, we went from a 46 lesson plan, in which investigators were given tons of information about the church they were contemplating joining. We gave great lessons and insured that all of the investigator's guestions were answered before ever talking about baptism.

Well, wham, bam, alikazam, down came the edict from the Profit through the infamous Alvin R. Dyer, that inspiration had led them to reduce the lesson plan from 46 to 6 (yes, that's right SIX) lessons and the challenge for baptism came on the second lesson.

Well, it has taken the Brethren about 45 years to wake up to the fact that rushing people into baptism just to record numbers has backfired big time on the church.

As far as I'm concerned, they all ought to hide their faces in shame.

Blame the missionaries???Sure, why not. We all know that the big 15 are infallible.

That's my rant for the day. Best Wishes!!

Subject:	Blaming the missionaries serves TWO important cult purposes
Date:	Aug 18 19:05
Author:	Kim

Church leaders blame the missionaries for the poor convert retention for at least two reasons.

1. To direct the blame away from themselves and the toxic church organization in general, where it belongs, and,

2. To create guilt among the missionaries that they are not working hard enough.

Missionaries must be constantly beaten into submission in order to feel guilty, which in turn makes them work harder, do more, pay more, and believe more.

Is there ever a time in Mormonism where one has done enough? Of course not. Every moment, TBMs are bombarded with:

You're NOT doing your genealogy.
You're NOT doing enough missionary work.
You're NOT attending the temple often enough.
You're NOT paying enough tithing.
You're NOT having Family Home Evening.
You're NOT reading scriptures often enough.
You're NOT praying enough.
You're NOT fasting enough.
You're NOT attending all your meetings.
You're NOT doing your home/visiting teaching.
You're NOT baring your testimony often enough.
You're NOT obeying your General Authorities enough.

It goes on and on. Cults thrive because their members can never do enough.

Subject:	Another reason
Date:	Aug 19 14:42
Author:	Outerdarkness

The gospel of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints is supposed to be the ultimate in universal truths. So the leadership is always off the hook because they are just imperfect men representing the truth. But as imperfect as these men are, they are still wise compared to the lowly missionaries, who, if they presented the ultimate in universal truths correctly would never lose a new convert.
The impression is, if the ultimate in truth is realized, how can one fall away.

Subject:

Lengthen your stride, raise the bar and feel guilty for not being perfect because it's ALWAYS YOUR FAULT! n/t

Subject:	Mormon corporate culture is a sick culture.
Date:	Aug 18 19:18
Author:	The Tribe of Jew-duh

Hinckley and all the other pinheaded businessmen that run the con job should be intimately familiar with how screwed up their culture is. If they were a true business the amount of turnover in the membership would warrant them a spot on the worst places to work list.

Guess what Hinckley...your methods are way beyond broken. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and send yourself and your corporate bafoons for some training.

Subject:	HEY Hinckley is correct..he hit it on the head, he is the man!
Date:	Aug 19 01:18
Author:	SusieQ#1

"If there is better teaching in the conversion process, there will be greater retention of those who are baptized."-GBH

Amazing that he admits it! He is admitting that they are not giving the missionaries the ability to do "better teaching."

The problem is lousy teaching and we all know those orders come from GBH and the old suits: no full disclosure for informed consent, no financial disclosure, no info given about the underwear, the temple rituals, the real history, no real study and no real conversion process all because the missionaries hands are tied.

Thanks GBH -- you are finally owning up to the mess you are making!!!!

Subject:

Imagine what would happen if they showed a film of the temple endowment prior to baptism n/t

Subject:	This trick goes all the way back to Joe Smith. Every time a prophecy or "inspired" program didn't work out ...
Date:	Aug 19 01:33
Author:	Green Bottle

it was blamed on a lack of worthiness on the part of the general membership of the Church. Of course, no competent false prophet and con artist will ever allow his gullible followers to think about the possibility that the failures could also indicate that the so-called "prophet" is a phony.

A huge number of suckers bought the lie back then and blamed themselves for the failures of the leaders and a huge number of suckers are buying the same lie today. Why should Hinckley want to tamper with a successful tactic?

Subject:	The blame for lousy member retention rests squarely on the shoulders of one Gordon Bitner Hinckley.(two Fbombs)
Date:	Aug 19 02:55
Author:	Polygamy Porter

Oh lurking COB minions of the most high, TAKE NOTES and give them to your leader.

Gordon is the one who decided to start hiding the more controversial and "peculiar" points of mormonism.

Before he was head old guy, he was head PR spin doctor. He thought he was a shrewd cunning man ever so slightly omitting portions of mormon history..

His plan seemed to be working, but then what happened?

While the Hinckster was unraveling his plan to omit and forget mormon history, the technical world was rolling out something else.

But first in 1966, Polygamy Porter (me, not the beer) is born.

Back in 1969 a communications initiative was launched by the US government known as ARPA-NET which was a wired network of military and science communities via computer mainframes and phone lines. Interestingly enough, the University of Utah was one of the first four universities to connect to the beginning of the internet, the three other universities were in California, University of California at Los Angeles, SRI (in Stanford), and University of California at Santa Barbara.

This silly little ARPA-NET continued to grow along with a new operating system known as UNIX, especially among universities.

1974, Polygamy Porter is baptized into the mormon church.

1976, Dr. Robert M. Metcalfe develops Ethernet, which allowed coaxial cable to move data extremely fast. This was a crucial component to the development of LANs.
Also, the Department of Defense began to experiment with the TCP/IP protocol and soon decided to require it for use on ARPANET.

1978, Polygamy Porter is inducted into the mormon priesthood with his ordination to the office of deacon.

1983, TCP/IP became the core Internet protocol. The University of Wisconsin created Domain Name System (DNS). This allowed packets to be directed to a domain name, which would be translated by the server database into the corresponding IP number. This made it much easier for people to access other servers, because they no longer had to remember numbers.

The "domain name" is born.

1985, the National Science Foundation Network (NSFNET) begins roll out of T1 (1.5 Megabit per second) lines for it's backbone.

1987, Polygamy Porter is inducted into the higher mormon priesthood with his ordination to the office of Elder. Shortly afterwards, he takes out his endowments in the Mormon Salt Lake Temple. He is perplexed by many things he sees and witnesses that day.

1990, A faster backbone protocol is launched, T3 which carried 45 Megabits per second.
ARPANET is disbanded and replaced by the NSFNET backbone.
Tim Berners-Lee and CERN in Geneva implements a hypertext system to provide efficient information access to the members of the international high-energy physics community, this was the beginning of the Hyper Text Transfer Protocol, the native language of the World Wide Web.

1990 Polygamy Porter marries his hot girlfriend in the mormon temple. While there he realizes the ceremony has changed and things like the sick blood oaths have been completely omitted. He is further perplexed.

1992, Internet Society is chartered.
World-Wide Web released by CERN.
NSFNET backbone upgraded to T3 (45 Megabits per second)

1993, Marc Andreessen and NCSA and the University of Illinois develops a graphical user interface to the WWW, called "Mosaic for X". Marc and other coworker students from NCSA join a new company called Netscape.

1993-1995 Polygamy Porter serves a local stake mission of mostly wasting local ward member's evenings trying to coerce them into the latest version of the "Member Missionary Program" and driving the missionaries to Dairy Queen to get milk shakes.

1995, beta versions of the Netscape browser begin to proliferate. Soon Microsoft will follow with a bastardized version of the original Mosaic browser from NCSA.

1995, Eric Kettunen launches the beginnings of exmormon.org.

1996, the information age explodes. Polygamy Porter moves his family to the Golden state.

September, 21st 1996, Eric Kettunen registers the domain name, EXMORMON.ORG.

Over the next eight years, Polygamy Porter attends the temple for family events, and each time is further perplex at the new ceremony and the changes that occurred in 1990.

Late April 2004, Polygamy Porter uses the Google internet search engine by searching on the phrase "horses+book+of+mormon".

May 2004 - August 2004, Polygamy Porter spends every possible minute researching all of the mormon historical things that Gordon Bitner Hinckley thought that he could omit from my childhood eyes. Temple ceremony changes, not just the 1990 changes but all of them from the beginning. The BoA, JS polygamy, origins of the three degrees of glory, MMM, the real reason JS was killed... etc etc etc etc etc.

August 2004, Polygamy Porter, requests he be released of his mormon church callings and attends his last three hour block of mormon church services.

August 2005, Polygamy Porter posts this message on the now infamous Recovery from Mormonism board on exmormon.org and publicly tells mormon president Gordon Bitner Hinckley that his discernment failed back in the summer of '69... oh yeah, the summer, the summer of 69!

Ya still reading ye minions of the Hinckster?

Good.

Hear this fools, there are tens of thousands JUST LIKE ME, with thousands more every week. Not inactive members who never attended after their coerced baptism, NO... BIC, raised in the church, previously devout members who served missions, held callings, followed the prophet's counsel, married in the temple, started fast and young on childbearing, and paid 10% tithing on gross American wages.

Over the past 4 generations, Gordon attempted to slowly change the view in the rearview mirror of mormonism. Did he not realize we would all find the truth about the real mormon history at the worst time? In our adult lives?

What used to take YEARS in terms of researching mormon history can now be done in weeks, thanks to the internet, the great new Nauvoo Expositor.

In closing I would like to dole out some thanks to those who brought me the truth.
Thank you US military, thank you BBN for constructing the ARPANET, thank you Dr. Metcalfe for developing the TCP/IP protocol, thank you NSF, MCI, IBM, et al. for building the high speed data networks we now call the great infobahn, thank you Tim Berners-Lee and CERN for developing the protocol to request, retrieve, and display truth bearing text and pictures, thank you Marc Andreessen and NCSA for developing a the human interface to the WWW, thank you Netscape Corporation for making the internet so prevalent, thank you Eric Kettunen for having the foresight that Hinckley lacked and registering EXMORMON.ORG at the cusp of the information explosion in 1996, thank you Google Inc for crawling the net and finding mormon truths, thank you to all of the authors who have published the real mormon history on the internet for search engines to find, catalog, and display.

One last thing....

Fuck you Gordon Bitner Hinckley. FUCK YOU and your church.

Subject:	That's just cruel (M reference)
Date:	Aug 19 10:09
Author:	T-bone

I wonder if he's also blaming the poor teaching on the righteousness and 'worthiness' of the missionaries.

By worthiness, we all know what I mean. You touched yourself, that's why God is allowing that family to fall away, which means they will burn in hell. They got their one chance. Now they fell away, and they and their posterity are going to burn in hell. You know why? Because you are a 20 year old pervert. We are putting you in unnatural living conditions, where you are denied your natural sex drive, and you broke in 2 times last month and beat off. It's all your fault. Thousands will burn in hell because you just had to beat off. You lousy m-f-er. See what you did?

No, it's not about saving souls. It's about guilting these poor kids into trying to spend the rest of their lives seeking forgiveness for having a normal sex drive.

T-Bone
For all those who think having a sex drive at 19 and 20 is not normal, see professional help, please.

Subject:	Actually, maybe they should quit teaching people in their homes
Date:	Aug 19 10:22
Author:	okgivens

They should make them come to church to get taught once the first missionary lesson is completed. Tell them they would like them to come to church and go to Sunday School to find out more. Leave them with a Book of Mormon after the first lesson and be done with it.

Subject:	Th solution is quite simple
Date:	Aug 19 11:41
Author:	Yse

1. Full disclosure before anyone gets baptized

2.Only a few super nazi types will join but they will stay

3. End of "Retention Problem".

Subject:	Re: Th solution is quite simple
Date:	Aug 19 18:34
Author:	NearMo

I agree. (Although I find it strange that so many exmo's and questioners are trying to come up with ways that the church can retain new members.) When I was investigating the church I was appalled that the missionaries wanted me to be baptized after I'd been talking with them only a couple of weeks. I told them that I didn't know enough about the church and its teachings, yet. And they told me that they usually baptize children at age 8; and those kids don't know much, either. It seems that they want to baptize people ASAP because then they've "got them". So, when the new members begin to encounter some the odder beliefs, they'll already be involved in the church and less likely to turn and run.

Subject:	you won't believe what the church calls a "mission" these days....
Date:	Aug 14 18:55
Author:	danboyle

this was posted in the foyer at church today. This church has no shame, some of these "openings" even included the monthly cost to serve...not the monthly salary, the cost the senior missionary will pay to serve...the flyer has the heading "Full time senior missionary opportunities" Some listings:
Natural Resources/Hydrogeologist Engineer to develop water resources. Spouse would perform clerical and office support for a minimum of 32 hours per week
Exploration Research Geologist;...to research mineral potential of church owned properties....spouse should be computer literate..
Farm management company: basic carpentry, fixing things on the church farms, cost $1,ooo to $1,500 per month...
Polynesian cultural center: motorpool, fixing vehicles, must be able to lift 50 pounds several times a day..cost 2,000 to 2,500 per month!!

This church is out of control, asking retired folks to serve as "missionaries" when in reality it is free labor. Talk about taking advantage of the elderly, what a cult the church is.
For a complete listing of missionary "opportunities" you can check the church's website www.lds.org/csm
The final insult, a plea for help saying "our needs are great, and we would urge any one who has the spirit of Elijah to apply". Yes, I remember Elijah repairing transmissions and researching mineral rights in his golden years...

unbelievable...

Subject:	What a disgraceful cult!!
Date:	Aug 14 19:21
Author:	Samuel the Utahnite

I'm just speechless!! They know no shame!! Reading something like this makes me physically ill as I think about those older folks paying to be abused by a multi-billion dollar corporation. They can buy a billion dollar mall but they can't pay someone to motorpool and fix vehicles at the PCC? How much do they charge again to get into that damn place? Someone has to actually pay to have the privilege of fixing cars at the PCC? Oh yeah, how much is that luxury resort costing over there in Hawaii? Every time I think they are as low as they can go, they take it another lever lower. In my mind, they are becoming a more evil and controlling cult everyday. I think maybe a Federal Investigation needs to take place on these "so called missions." Especially where they involve the Elderly that are being greatly taken advantage off.

This is abuse of the Elderly, plain and simple!! Something really needs to be done!! We need 48 hours or 20/20 to do an undercover investigation, an exposé and get Bishops,Stake Presidents, Seventies, etc, covering their faces saying, "no comment, no comment, while running from the cameras." This is truly a shameful practice and I'm even more embarrassed everyday that I was once a "true believer" in this cult!! I feel like throwing up now!!

Subject:	OH "SHORE" 85 year old grandpa can do this:
Date:	Aug 14 19:28
Author:	SusieQ#1

Polynesian cultural center: motorpool, fixing vehicles, must be able to lift 50 pounds several times a day..cost 2,000 to 2,500 per month!!

Subject:	They charge senior couples $1400 to serve...
Date:	Aug 14 19:37
Author:	BornUnderPunches

..in Anchorage, Alaska. A town where *MANY* people live fairly comfortably making less than $1400 a month.

$1400 to perform clerical work. $1400 that does not include food, initial apartment costs, vehicle maintenance, phone calls, etc.

$1400 in GRAVY for the church.

Subject:	They don't "charge" seniors to serve
Date:	Aug 15 00:40
Author:	Sophia

Relatives of mine have been on senior missions. The $$ amounts in the ads are estimates of how much it costs to live in that particular mission. That's why the PCC is so expensive--because it's expensive to live in Hawaii.

I'm not defending the practice of getting seniors to do this sort of thing. These are jobs that they should hire people to do and pay a fair wage. But it's not like they take this money away from the people and still expect them to pay living expenses.

And while I think it's really a dumb thing for people to go on these missions, no one holds a gun to their heads. My relatives really loved their mission. They took care of missionary cars, made apartment arrangement for missionaries and signed leases, made sure the missionaries kept their rented rooms clean, and did a variety of other administrative duties. It wasn't something I would waste 18 months doing, but I think it was rather a broadening experience for them to get out of Mormonland and learn something about people in another part of the world.

Subject:	Re: They don't "charge" seniors to serve
Date:	Aug 15 01:33
Author:	Samuel the Utahnite

Well, you can call it what you want but they are in fact "paying" to be there and they are not being compensated whatsoever for all of the hard work that they are doing. So, they are indeed being "charged" to serve and it is disguised as a "mission" call. Let's call it what it really is, a Billion dollar corporation that is too cheap to hire someone, when they can get all the work done for free, by Elderly people who are guilted and shamed into serving a mission for the Mormon God.

I have a hard time believing that there wasn't something better that your Grandparent's could have been doing in their "Golden Years", like being with their loved ones and relaxing or spending time on a hobby.

You may say that they don't hold a literal gun to their head, but they hold a spiritual gun to their head. When my Dad retired, within weeks, he was in the Bishop's office being asked which mission he wanted to serve with my Mom. To his credit, he said none!! He said that he had worked his whole life in order to be able to retire, enjoy life and be with his Family. God bless him!! They kept bothering him for about a year and finally gave up. Whenever service projects come up, he is one of the first ones they call and he just tells them nope, can't do it.

> My relatives really loved their mission. They took care of missionary cars, made apartment arrangement for missionaries and signed leases, made sure the missionaries kept their rented rooms clean, and did a variety of other administrative duties.

They loved doing this? Really? 18 months of their life spent taking care of missionary cars, arranging apartments and leases for missionaries and making sure that missionaries kept their rooms clean and they loved it? If they did, they did, but I'm not buying it, that they were out there having a great time doing that crap. It's hard for me to believe that there was no other place they would have rather been and no other things that they would have rather been doing. I saw first hand on my mission how the Elderly are abused, mistreated and taken advantage off. They are not truly appreciated and I have many examples.

I feel that it is a complete disgrace that the Billion dollar Mormon Inc even has to ask Elderly people to do this crap after they have worked hard their whole life. I guess that they hope that they have been brainwashed sufficiently to want to do it for God!! The other thing that really pisses me off about the treatment of the Elderly is that they don't even qualify for the equal money program of missionaries. Why is this? They have to pay out the full price and the prices that they ask are way higher than they should be. If anyone should qualify for that program, it's the Elderly.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Mormon Inc owns the majority of the houses that they are charging the Elderly monthly rent for. The Church is definitely making a tidy profit off of the Elderly and it makes me sick. They should be ashamed of themselves, but how can they when they have no shame. Their is nothing to low that they won't do to make a quick buck, even it means abusing and taking advantage of the Elderly.

I'd like to see some of these pompous ass Seventies out there doing this type of work with no compensation. They wouldn't know what to do if they had to "really" work and give up their "living allowance", 5 star hotels, private jets and luxury cars. Damn cult!!

Subject:	Re: They don't "charge" seniors to serve
Date:	Aug 15 19:46
Author:	Sophia

It wasn't my grandparents, but rather my sister in law and her husband. And yes, they did enjoy their mission. Like you, I would detest doing what they did. But that doesn't change the fact that it was something they wanted to do and enjoyed doing.

As for whether they "charge" people to do this, I was responding to someone who made it sound like they charged a monthly amount and then expected them to pay their own way in addition. That is incorrect. The amounts are estimates of living expenses for particular missions. My in-laws' expenses were about $1500 per month, which is probably considerably less than they spend while they are at home.

I really don't know how pushy the church is about sending seniors on missions. In my limited experience, I have observed that the people I knew affirmatively volunteered. When we retired we were still active in the church and were never approached with a suggestion to go on a mission (which we would certainly have declined had we been asked).

While I agree that the church should advertise for an employee to do the kinds of jobs listed in the initial post, instead of suckering some retiree to do it for free, I don't really see it as abusive if there is someone who would like to do it. Some people like to do things they are familiar with in their retirement. Indeed, the Peace Corps had capitalized on the willingness of retired people to do humanitarian work around the world. While Peace Corps volunteers don't pay their own expenses, and they are paid a small salary of some kind, they certainly do the work for much less than they would do it for in private industry.

In addition, retired people these days are not necessarily "elderly." Many people in their seventies and even eighties are active and capable. My mother, age 85, is one of them. (She has no interest in doing a mission.) Those who have the mental ability to be geophysicists are certainly able to make in informed decision about whether or not to volunteer for this kind of "opportunity."

I do agree that the church should not expect people to do this, but it's not like they are extending a calling to someone who didn't volunteer and pressuring them to go. I've seen these listings posted at the church, and people are free to look at the listing and see if they find something they want to volunteer to do. Awhile back I saw a listing for someone to teach at BYU-Hawaii. I was, frankly, appalled that they would ask. Still, if there is someone dumb enough or "devoted" enough or even brainwashed enough to volunteer to do it, who am I to tell them they shouldn't spend a couple of years in Hawaii teaching? There are worse things to do than spend two years in Hawaii.

My inlaws decided they wanted to go on a mission, so they voluntarily requested and turned in their papers. They didn't ask for anything specific, and they went where they were assigned. It wouldn't be my choice, but they were doing what they wanted to do. Who am I (and who are you) to tell them they should have different priorities? They spent 18 months in a place they had never lived, they did some fun things while they were there, the "set an example" that they would love to see their kids and grandkids follow. It's no one else's business to say they "shouldn't" do what they did.

I think it was a little difficult for them to leave their families and go away for a year and a half, but at the same time, I think they enjoyed not being "on call" for every family event and need.

As for the equalizing of mission costs, I think that would probably price some seniors out of missions. As it is now, people can state how much they can afford to pay and can be assigned accordingly. Those who can't afford Hawaii can go somewhere cheaper.

I would not be at all surprised if the church owns real estate in various places that seniors and even other missionaries live in. I don't know that they do, but it would not surprise me. If they do, I also don't know whether they charge reasonable rent. I am certain that they look out for their own bottom line, but I don't think it is necessarily unreasonable for them to buy real estate if they do it to lock in costs and make missions more affordable. I think I heard the details about where my inlaws lived on their mission, but I really don't remember whether the church owned the property or not. I do know that the rent was very reasonable, but that may be a function of where they went.

Good for your dad for knowing what he wanted to do, and for knowing how to "just say no." Is it possible that your mother put the bishop up to trying to get your dad on a mission?

Subject:	Re: They don't "charge" seniors to serve
Date:	Aug 15 21:49
Author:	Samuel the Utahnite

Well, to answer your question, no, my Mom did not put the Bishop up to it. She wanted to serve a mission a lot less than my Dad and he didn't want to at all.

Now, I just want to help you out a little bit about what the "listed cost" doesn't cover, right off of the Churches website. You make it sound like it's all inclusive but after seeing this list, you'll understand better that it isn't. Oh, and don't forget to pay your tithing and fast offerings too.

Couples Estimated Mission Costs in US. These costs do not include health insurance, prescriptions, Tithing, Fast Offerings, long distance calls, cell phones, car repairs, personal care items such as hair, apartment set up costs.

I've read many cases, right here on this board, where an "older" couple has had to buy everything for their apartment. Dishes, a bed, everything. The Church won't pay for it, it's right out of their pocket. Also, many have commented that the amounts the Church is charging is much more than the current market value or average rent in the area.

Also, out of every mission that the Church lists, there are only 3, all in Brazil, that would cost less than the equal missionary plan. I'm not sure if you understand what I'm talking about. It's the plan where every missionary pays the same cost. How would that price them out, it would help them tremendously? From the costs ranging from $600-$3,700 in England, how would it hurt them to only be paying $400 instead. I think it's $400 still, it may be higher now. But I don't feel that just because they are an "older" retired couple, that they should have to flip the whole bill that could easily be paid for by a billion dollar corporation. After all, it was the Church not too long ago that recommended that all older couples should will their life savings to the Church.

For that matter, the Church could pay for every missionary if they wanted without hardly making a dent in their bottom line. Let's just say that the Church brings in anywhere from $5-$10 Billion dollars in just tithing. We have 50,000 missionaries out in the field every two years. Lets say each mission costs $11,000-$12,000. So we are talking about $550-$600 million every two years. So, about $300 million more or less a year to completely sustain the mission program, it wouldn't even make a dent in the Billions that they have coming in from their tithing and investments. So why don't they? Why should they when everyone will pay their own way!!

I can't help you see that they are indeed taking advantage of these people and I also can't help those that are being taken advantage of to see it. It is what it is and it's ashame!! They are all victims of the damn cult and many don't even know it. I've been on a mission as have many of my friends, I've read many posts on here and I know how they treat the "older couples", unless you are Lavel Edward's on a "PR" mission in New York. He was the boss, hanging out with bigwigs but that is the exception, not the rule!! Also, they do pressure these people greatly!! I know you don't believe that, but they do.

Subject:	I think we mostly agree.
Date:	Aug 16 00:59
Author:	Sophia

I realize that there are other expenses, but my original point was that that they don't "charge" seniors to serve, which was what Born Under Punches wrote in the subject line. BUP also said that this is "gravy" for the church. In one sense it is, because people pay their own expenses for the "privilege" of doing free labor for the church. But the "gravy" doesn't come from "charging" anyone any money. It comes from the free labor. That was the point I was making: the church doesn't "charge" any money.

I also agree with you that the church does take advantage of people's devotion to God and/or the church in order to obtain their free services, and I find that disgusting. And I agree that the church should pay all or part of missionary expenses.

As for charitable bequests, I'm not sure that is a thing of the past. I think they still have a department that solicits bequests. In fact, a friend of ours did a mission to get people to give. Many years ago my parents received some kind of solicitation. (Fortunately they had the good sense to decline the invitation.)

The church's actions in taking advantage of people is not limited to missions, of course. It takes advantage of all of its active members with its demands for time and money. I am very happy that I have reclaimed my own time and money from the church. I detest their sometimes coercive tactics.

That said, however, I've got lots of friends and relatives who are quite happy to give their time and money to the church, and it's not like they don't get any rewards from their giving. They form friendships as a result of the service they give (even if I think it's stupid busy work), they develop skills like organizational skills and public speaking skills, and when they do missions they get to travel to and live in a place they wouldn't otherwise travel to and live in. In the process, a lot of them seem to have quite a lot of fun.

I really am not defending the church here. I agree with you that it does some really despicable things. What I am defending is the right of seniors and others to spend their time doing things that I find useless if that is what they want to do. My mother, for instance, really enjoys doing a lot of stuff for the church, including genealogy and visiting teaching. It is one of her primary support and social systems, and I'm glad she does what she likes to do. Fortunately, she doesn't believe in an "only true church," and doesn't try to tell me whether or not I should attend or support the church.

I really was quite flabbergasted when I first learned about these highly skilled "missions," but I decided that if someone wants to do it, it's OK with me, and that in fact, these "missions" are probably less onerous than the regular run-of-the-mill, boring, administrative ones because people who would qualify for such missions are probably among the most intelligent and well-off Mormons. So if someone wants to go search for gas and oil on church property, and has a spouse who is willing to do clerical work, it's none of my business.

In other words, I don't like it that the church asks people to do it, but I support the right of people to volunteer if they want to.

Subject:	proves there's a sucker born every minute, especially in the years 1920-1940...
Date:	Aug 14 19:54
Author:	gigglebox

Have these elderlies not lived long enough in American society to develop SOME discernment for scams and rackets along the way?

Oh yeah, they're Mormon. Their innate BS detectors were surgically removed during baptism. Now they're willing and delighted to pay for whatever grunt work LDS,Inc. decides is beneath paying someone a fair wage to do. That says a lot about the worth seniors have in Mo society. Sick and tragic, just like the rest of the cult.

Subject:	A cousin of mine (f-bomb)
Date:	Aug 14 22:54
Author:	Charley

and his wife served a mission working in the COB. [church office building] When they got home they were told that they were irreplacable so they went back for another term.

I can't believe anyone being so brainwashed as that, yet it's true. And they paid for the whole thing. I don't know how long seniors serve these days, but it must have been at least 3 years total or possible 4. That they probably paid for with their retirement funds.

It makes me sick. Fucking cult.

Can anyone say brainwashed?

Subject:	Grrrrr <low menacing growl>
Date:	Aug 14 23:47
Author:	javanorm

These people (the GAs) have no shame. This really hits home for me because my parents are serving a senior mission right now (in the Phillipines). It's bad enough to think that they are paying their way there (to serve in de facto leadership positions and train the locals to run the cult). But this really takes the cake. Come, work for us in a professional position that should pay at least $60k/yr and PAY US FOR IT! It takes me back to when I was a kid and my dad (who was then the bishop) sold our only car to help pay for the cult meeting house they built in our town. Yeah, we bought another car (an old VW bug into which we stuffed all 8 of us!). But still...

LDS Inc is a pyramid scheme in which only the very top people enrich themselves. Everybody else gives and gives and gives, at least up to the SP level. Makes me want to slap somebody.

Subject:	I remember once
Date:	Aug 15 01:38
Author:	Titania

being stuffed into an old red pinto w/ all 8 of my siblings plus my parents. Only difference is, my parents had been "inspired" to move us from one province to another, which left us dirt poor, or pretty close to it, which is why we all had to cram into that car. Wouldn't be able to do it now. Even if we all were the same size, we'd still get pulled over. Not enough seatbelts.

Subject:	Can't the prophet just ask god where the minerals are ?
Date:	Aug 14 23:57
Author:	AGeologist

Because, carrying out exploration in many parts of the world requires the permission of governments etc. and the purchase of incidentals such as exploration rights!!
I wonder where all the money would come from for drilling contractors, purchase of geological literature for the area, cost of elemental and mineral analyses, mapping software, geophysical activities etc. - and the list is longer than that.
I suggest that the prophet just asks God - 'show me the minerals'.

Subject:	Re: you won't believe what the church calls a "mission" these days....
Date:	Aug 15 00:00
Author:	Grrr

It is obscene that the church would charge people for this type of work!! Pay us to tell us if the land we own will make us richer. Pay us to fix our cars and work our farms! While the big wigs in Salt Lake live in luxury!! It is bad enough to make missionaries pay for the opportunity to preach the gospel but these types of jobs should definitely be fairly compensated for!!! This is not work being done for the church but the corporation. The church has no business soliciting for free work for the corporation. The church should loose all of its tax breaks over such behavior! How can any normal business compete against a corporation that uses slave labor!

Subject:	I thought you were kidding at first
Date:	Aug 15 00:04
Author:	Bonnie

I am in shock. How disgraceful. The sad part is, some older folks will feel the need to be useful and will fill those positions. But i guess if it is a honor to THEM,then it should be none of my business.

Yet, I feel sick inside.

Subject:	This is why the church is so "rich"
Date:	Aug 15 00:33
Author:	clint

Actually Mormons on the average are not wealthy people. If the church actually paid its clergy and the missionaries like other self respecting churchs they would go broke in a heartbeat. The Roman Catholic church has more wealth than the Mormon church can ever dream of.

Subject:	Actually. per capita, the mormon church is richer than the roman cathoholic church.
Date:	Aug 15 01:42
Author:	Dave The Atheist

Subject:	Re: you won't believe what the church calls a "mission" these days....
Date:	Aug 15 00:48
Author:	Natalie R. Collins

OH you have no idea. My mother spent a good half hour telling me about how they received a phone call from a mission president in Florida who wanted them to come there, except she just didn't know how they were "going to afford it."

HELLO???? You are paying for this shit?

Subject:	One missionary's sad commentary about her life
Date:	Aug 15 00:52
Author:	Sophia

Awhile back I visited Nauvoo. The reason for the trip is a story in itself, but one woman said something I found rather sad, though she said it with much exuberance.

Nauvoo is probably one of the most "fun" missions for a lot of senior missionaries. They dress up in period clothing and recite to the mostly Mormon visitors the "facts" about the various buildings and what happened in Nauvoo, and there are a couple of "plays" that they perform that purport to depict life in Nauvoo in the 1830s-40s. They do things like weave cloth, make ropes, dip candles, fire bricks, ect. They also do "campfire" programs at night where they sing and do skits down by the Mississippi River. (The latter were actually quite a lot of fun.)

Anyway, during one visit to something I've forgotten about, this one woman said, "This is just absolutely the most fun I've ever had in my life." I thought, "How sad that you've had such a boring life."

But--whatever floats your boat, I guess. She was having a great time.

Subject:	My dad and his wife
Date:	Aug 15 01:20
Author:	PossiblyPagan

just left a week ago to serve in the Nauvoo mission. I was hoping for the Polynesian Cultural Center (they had an opening for an architect, which he is) so I could go visit when they were done. I'll pass on Nauvoo.

Subject:	"families are important", thats why I have family on 2nd and 3rd missions burning up precious time that will be lost forever for certain grandchildren! ,,,,
Date:	Aug 15 01:30
Author:	around

the morg sucks and they are self serving pigs

Subject:	People don't "owe" their grandchildren their company.
Date:	Aug 15 20:05
Author:	Sophia

I don't particularly want to be defending the church here in this thread, because I really do think that they take advantage of people in many, many ways and that they do it with their very dishonest assertions about their "truth claims." And to the extent that they are pressuring retired folks to go on missions, their actions are truly indefensible.

I have to say, however, people who expect family members not to judge their choice to leave the church are on thin ice, IMO, when they criticize other family members' choices.

Quite a few years ago I was watching a TV talk show (Oprah, maybe?) and there was this woman who had written some book about self-fulfillment or somthing like that. She was talking especially about women and about women who sacrifice what they themselves want to do for the sake of their families, something Mormon women are constantly pressured to do.

I remember one particular line she stated, which I thought Mormons should take to heart. It was this: "The best thing you can do for your family is to live the life of your dreams, because that is how you give them permission to live the life of their dreams."

Even if I still believed in the church, I think my choice would be to stick around and enjoy my relationships with my kids and grandkids, but it is not my business to say that others should make the choice I would make.

Retired people have usually worked hard all their lives to provide for their families and for their own security in their later years. Often they have sacrificed their own opportunities to travel, to enjoy recreational activities, and even to do whole-hearted church work if that is what they want to do. If they want to spend their senior years going on missions then that is their right.

People do "owe" their children their time and attention, and to the extent that the church takes them away from that very important commitment that they make by bringing children into the world, it deserves harsh criticism. But once peoples' families are raised, they deserve to do what they want to do, even if that is going on missions.

There are many, many things to criticize the Mormon church for, but I think it is only fair to give credit where it is due. I have observed that the church gives many seniors a great sense of purpose and meaning in life, and I find that really commendable, especially in a world that often discounts the abilities of senior citizens and devalues their accomplishments.

And now I'll get off my soap box. :)

Subject:	Of course no one has said that grandparents "owe" their grandchildren anything.
Date:	Aug 15 21:54
Author:	Cheryl

They don't. If they like spending their money this way, fine. They're the ones choosing to spend money and time on a church and not with their grandkids.

Surprising that some of them actually think they get their money's worth. In my opinion, ot shows how the church has corrupted their sense of values.

Subject:	Agreed! n/t
Date:	Aug 16 01:00
Author:	Sophia

Subject:	Re: you won't believe what the church calls a "mission" these days....
Date:	Aug 15 02:02
Author:	hairypothead

And I thought it was outrageous when they fired paid janitors, and then "called" other people(sometimes the SAME ones) to do it free!
I can picture it: Bishop gives janitor his severance check, sits him down in a chair, and bishop and counselors lay their hands on his head and set him apart to do all that crap for free. I'd punch their lights out!

Subject:	Two things
Date:	Aug 15 22:03
Author:	allegro

It is disgraceful what they do. A friend of mine father died on their 4th mission. They never really knew their grandkids. In fact one of the children asked who was grandpa? How sad.

I was wondering as I was reading these "jobs", wonder what would happen if the tecnical expert was the wife and the man would be the clerical person?

Subject:	The pressure to stay in South Africa is killing my grandma right now . . .
Date:	Aug 16 02:24
Author:	Ms.

It's more from her husband than the church though. He wants to be there and be the big white man helping everyone learn to be celibate so she has to suffer too.

My grandma's sister died in South Africa of the same health problem my grandma has six months ago.

I wish my grandfather would die and my grandma could come home. Over fifty years of doing what he says--she won't stop until death.

3. Mormon Missions - regrets?	29. Missionaries Were Here
39. Missionary and Death of a Parent	50. Missionaries Use Manipulation
74. Missionary Companions	76. Crazy Mission Rules
85. Regrets of LDS Mission II	94. New Missionary Standards
99. Missionary Farewells	120 Missions Promote Lying
116 Met with Missionaries	142 Regrets Mormon Mission III
151 Saying 'No' to Mormon Missionaries	154 European Mission Experiences
181 1st Presidency on Missionary Work	205 Missions - Future Apostasy