Subject: Where is Heavenly Mother?
Date: Feb 11, 2006 
Author: Tal Bachman

Where is Heavenly Mother?

Do she exist? What does she look like? And isn't the singular term "Heavenly Mother", in the mouth of a Mormon, rather silly given Heavenly Father's status as a polygamist?

If HM exists, is she not by definition divine? If she is divine, on what grounds should she not be adored? If she is not divine, how did she get into the celestial kingdom, or wherever she and her sister wives and her husband live?

Come to think of it, what credible evidence is there that any Mormon General Authority, ever, has had even the slightest clue as to who or what is running the universe, if anything, any more than any other man or woman on this planet? And if there is none, on what grounds should anyone defer to them when they insist it's a violation of cosmic moral law to worship some divine feminine presence? (I'm voting for Salma Hayek). Mormon leaders - literally - can't even decide on who the BOOK OF MORMON is about (the "keystone of their religion"). They're promoting two contradictory claims. When they are so incapable of understanding things which happen on our own planet Earth, how can anyone seriously believe they know the slightest thing about goings on near Kolob? How nuts.

Isn't the Mormon claim that HM remains hidden since she is so sacred that the risk of her being profaned can't be taken, identical to the Muslim argument for bhurkas and restricting female presence? That is, hasn't Mormon theology done about the same thing to HM as has the Afghan version of Muslim theology done to the Afghan woman - acknowledging her existence, while making her, for all intents and purposes, non-existent? Where does chivalry really end, and misogyny really begin?

By the way - is it REALLY essential to our salvation to know that HM should never be adored? Not sure I'm getting this: Joseph Smith moves from trinitarianism to bitheism to tritheism, actually prayed to Jesus (Jehovah) in Section 109, canonized the Lectures on Faith which have a different doctrine than does the church now on the identity of God, Brigham Young got mixed up about the identity of Adam and Elohim and (if I remember right) once said Adam had sired Jesus, the LDS First Presidency can't even agree on a formal doctrine of the Godhead until the tenure of Joseph F. Smith - even though the contradictory L on F are still in the scriptures when they finish inventing it - Gordon B. Hinckley tells a New Yorker reporter he has no idea what BY meant when he said that if we could see God, we would just see Adam and Eve, Bruce McConkie rails against too much intimacy with Jesus and McKay never corrects him, then Hinckley says "Jesus is my friend", and even goes so far as to say that he "worships" Jesus...

When you really look at it, Mormon leaders have made about as much of a mess trying to figure out the nature of who or what they worship as did the proto-Catholics they've made so much fun of -

But despite all that confusion, the only thing they're all crystal clear on is that no one should ever address a Heavenly Mother in prayer? So, I'm supposed to believe that God doesn't take ten seconds over the course of 175 years to reveal exactly what is going on with Himself and his son and Adam and how they'd all like to be addressed or regarded, permitting all kinds of embarrassing confusions and digressions and canonization and then DE-canonization, etc. with Brigham Young even preaching his weird Adam stuff in the Lecture at the Veil, AND THEN ALSO, at the same time, take seriously the Mormon prophet's claim that God HAS revealed to him WITH PERFECT CLARITY (despite all the other outstanding confusions) that under no circumstances should any human ever worship the divine feminine? (and also, not wear two earrings in the same ear?).

Is it just me - or does that sound rather suspicious?

I don't know who's running this joint. I did go out to the forest with my kids to watch the salmon spawn in October and that was kind of an incredible spiritual experience. I talked to the naturalist about how they navigate their way back, and honestly, it did sound just like a miracle of purposeful design. Yet, I don't know. And the point here is - Mormon leaders very clearly don't know either, yet still feel qualified to denounce women thinking on, or worshipping, an idealized female presence. What do they care? These guys are putting up Joseph Smith Nativity Scenes and singing "Praise to the Man", and then excommunicate women for praying to HM. What a bunch of loons!

Semi-coherently yours,


Subject: RED FLAG: Why the church wont talk about Heavenly Mother
Date: Feb 11, 2006
Author: Deconstructor

"Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. Such a system was commenced by the founders of the Roman empire....Rome became the mistress of the world, and introduced this order of monogamy wherever her sway was acknowledged. Thus this monogamic order of marriage, so esteemed by modern Christians as a holy sacrament and divine institution, is nothing but a system established by a set of robbers.... Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord's servants have always practised it. 'And is that religion popular in heaven?' It is the only popular religion there."
- Prophet Brigham Young, The Deseret News, August 6, 1862

In another thread, Tal Bachman asks the excellent question - Why doesn't the Church talk about Mother in Heaven?

The answer is doctrinally simple, yet disturbing to the modern church. Heavenly Father has a harem of wives.

D&C 132:

11 And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law, even as I and my Father ordained unto you, before the world was?

Notice how Heavenly Father ordained the law of polygamy before the creation of the earth!

More D&C 132:

28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.

29 Abraham received all things, whatsoever he received, by revelation and commandment, by my word, saith the Lord, and hath entered into his exaltation and sitteth upon his throne.

32 Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.

33 But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.

34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this is the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin...

55 But if she (Emma Smith) will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

The Lord was giving Joseph Smith "wives and children" in the eternal worlds just like the other great prophets, because Heavenly Father has many wives and children too.

According to current Mormon scripture and the prophets of the restoration of the gospel, polygamy is a divine institution.

So does God the Father have more than one wife?

"But if we have a heavenly Mother as well as a heavenly Father, is it not right that we should worship the Mother of our spirits as well as the Father? No; for the Father of our spirits is at the head of His household, and His wives and children are required to yield the most perfect obedience to their great Head."
-Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Vol.1, No.10, p.158

We don't hear about Heavenly Mother because she is only one of many wives of god.
-Sister Maxine Hanks, Women and Authority, Ch.11, p.251

"One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly loved Jesus--such as Mary, and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much; and when He arose from the dead, instead of first showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them--namely, Mary Magdalene. Now, it would be very natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear-wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were his wives."
-The Seer, Vol.1, No.10, p.159

"When we talk about celestial glory, we talk of the condition of endless increase; if we obtain celestial glory in the fullest sense of the word, then we have wives and children in eternity, we have the power of endless lives granted unto us, the power of propagation that will endure through all eternity, all being fathers and mothers in eternity; fathers of fathers, and mothers of mothers, kings and queens, priests and priestesses, and shall I say more? Yes, all becoming gods. For this is the power of God; it is the power by which God presides over the universe, and fills the universe with power, and which we pray unto Him to bestow upon us."
-Apostle George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, p.124

"We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born, and another being upon the earth by whom He begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as His Only Begotten in this world. We have also proved most clearly that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings' daughters and many honorable Wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time; and that God the Father has already begotten many thousand millions of sons and daughters and sent them into this world to take tabernacles; and that God the Son has the promise that "of the increase of his government there shall be no end;" it being expressly declared that the children of one of His Queens should be made Princes in all the earth. (See Psalm 45: 16.)
-The Seer, Vol.1, No.11, p.172

"The sole and sufficient reason which led the church to promulgate the doctrine [of polygamy] was that the Lord had by revelation taught it and had commanded its acceptance in the present dispensation. The revelation here referred to was given to Joseph Smith in 1831; but for several years after that time it was made known to a few of the leading officials of the Church only; and not until 1841 did the prophet allow its practice or introduce it by his own example. The written revelation was published to the Church under date of July 12, 1843 (Doc.& Cov. 132). In this declaration of the divine will, the Lord justified Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and other holy men of old in their marriage relations, declaring that they had all received their wives, by command of God, and under the conditions of the celestial covenant, and that in this thing they sinned not, except as some of them, David and Solomon for example, took wives not given of God. The command to re-establish the sacred ordinance of celestial marriage, including plurality of wives was definite and binding on the Church. The people received it as a divine requirement, and entered upon its practice with the sentiment of the Christian world and their own traditional conceptions of propriety in full opposition."
-Apostle James E. Talmage, The Essential James E. Talmage, p.73

"Women are queens and priestesses but not gods. The Godhead, the "Presidency of Heaven," is a presidency of three male deities, similar to a stake presidency whose members each have wives who are responsible for domestic religious education but not ecclesiastical functions."
-Elder Rodney Turner, retired BYU religion professor, Sunstone Panel Discussion, September 7 1991.

"Jesus says there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13: 28.) There are many in this generation so pious that they would consider themselves greatly disgraced to be obliged to associate with a man having a plurality of wives; would it not be well for such to desire a place separate from the kingdom of God, that they may not be contaminated with the society of these old Polygamists? And then it would be so shocking to the modesty of the very pious ladies of Christendom to see Abraham and his wives, Jacob and his wives, Jesus and his honorable wives, all eating occasionally at the same table, and visiting one another, and conversing about their numerous children and their kingdoms. Oh, ye delicate ladies of Christendom, how can you endure such a scene as this? Oh, what will you do, when you behold on the very gates of the holy Jerusalem the names of the Twelve sons of the four wives of the Polygamist Jacob? If you do not want your morals corrupted, and your delicate ears shocked, and your pious modesty put to the blush by the society of polygamists and their wives, do not venture near the holy Jerusalem, nor come near the New Earth; for Polygamists will be honored there, and will be among the chief rulers in that Kingdom."
-The Seer, Vol.1, No.11, p.172-p.173

Elder Benjamin F. Johnson remembered that "the Prophet taught us that Dominion & power in the great Future would be Commensurate with the number of 'Wives, Children & Friends' that we inherit here" (Van Wagoner 1986, 45). Joseph Smith counseled his Sunday audience to "use a little Craftiness & seal all [the women] you can" so that you can claim them in heaven
- Ehat and Cook 1980, page 331.

"Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time and eternity, we are not informed. Inasmuch as God was the first husband to her, it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity."
-The Seer, Vol.1, No.10, p.158-p.159

Above all else, the Mormon "Heavenly Father" is perfect and unchanging. So he didn't divorce his wives after the 1890 manifesto that ended the practice of polygamy on earth.

If polygamy is the divine order in the Celestial Kingdom, what place do women have there? That's the troubling question the church dare not explain.

Subject: Other church leaders refer to women as cattle...
Date: Feb 11 13:22

Mormon leaders have been acting-out their "divine order" for a long time...

"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101.

After the church apostle took his last wife at age fifty-six, he begot seventeen children by her and by four other wives.

Speaking to a group of departing missionaries, Apostle Kimball instructed...
"Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp.129-30.

and again...

"I say to those who are elected to go on missions, remember they are not your sheep: they belong to Him that sends you. Then do not make a choice of any of those sheep; do not make selections before they are brought home and put into the fold. You under stand that. Amen"
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.256.


"I have noticed that a man who has but one wife, and is inclined to that doctrine, soon begins to wither and dry up, while a man who goes into plurality [of wives] looks fresh, young, and sprightly."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses Vol 5, page 22

From the pulpit in General Conference, church members were warned:

"Some quietly listen to those who speak against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203

"Sisters, do you wish to make yourselves happy? Then what is your duty? It is for you to bear children, in the name of the Lord, that are full of faith and the power of God,—to receive, conceive, bear, and bring forth in the name of Israel's God that you may have the honour of being the mothers of great and good men—of kings, princes, and potentates that shall yet live on the earth and govern and control the nations. Do you look forward to that? or are you` tormenting yourselves by thinking that your husbands do not love you? I would not care whether they loved a particle or net; but I would cry out, like one of old, in the joy of my heart, "I have got a man from the Lord!" "Hallelujah! I am a mother—I have borne, an image of God!"
- The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, p.37

"Says a woman of faith and knowledge, 'I will make the best of it; it is a law that man shall rule over me; his word is my law, and I must obey him; he must rule over me; this is upon me and I will submit to it,' and by so doing she has promises that others do not have."
- The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discources, Volume 16, Page 167.

"You ought to love a woman only so far as she adorns the doctrine you profess; so far as she adorns that doctrine, just so far let your love extend to her. When will she be worthy of the full extent of your affection? When she has lived long enough to secure to herself a glorious resurrection and an eternal exaltation as your companion, and never until then."

"Elders, never love your wives one hair's breadth further than they adorn the Gospel, never love them so but that you can leave them at a moment's warning without shedding a tear. Should you love a child any more than this? No. Here are Apostles and Prophets who are destined to be exalted with the Gods, to become rulers in the kingdoms of our Father, to become equal with the Father and the Son, and will you let your affections be unduly placed on anything this side that kingdom and glory? If you do, you disgrace your calling and Priesthood. The very moment that persons in this Church suffer their affections to be immoderately placed upon an object this side the celestial kingdom, they disgrace their profession and calling. When you love your Wives and children, are fond of your horses, your carriages, your fine houses, your goods and chattels, or anything of an earthly nature, before your affections become too strong, wait until you and your family are sealed up unto eternal lives, and you know they are yours from that time henceforth and for ever."
- The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.360

Subject: Of course they won't discuss....
Date: Feb 11 13:27
Author: lenore-no-more

...the role of women in the Celestial Kingdom, because any woman in her right mind would recoil in horror!

In the CK, the righteous Priesthood holders will be blessed with a large multitude of wives. Each of them will have the responsbility of giving birth to as any "spirit children" as possible to populate the world created by their now-exalted husband.

This places two extreme burdens on the women: first, she has tolerate the knowledge that her beloved husband is enjoying intimate relationships with a large number of other women. Second, she must endure the rigors of repeated pregnancies and the pain of childbirth throughout all eternity - hardly an exciting prospect.

Subject: Why do so many women put up with it?
Date: Feb 11 15:27
Author: Mrs. Estzerhaus

Many of us have met TBM women who simply don't mentally process the eternal baby-making roll of women in Mormonism. If you ask them point blank about it, amazingly enough, they say they would be happy to be married to a god, breeding eternal babies for their own world. IMO, their eternal life they hope to have isn't much different from what they are living now!

Subject: Mother should be plural
Date: Feb 11 07:56
Author: i cannot reveal it at this time

I was taught that the reason for the different types of people on earth was the 'fact' that we have a polygamous god. In other words, different Heavenly Mothers create different types of people.

Maybe God has so many wives that he forgot their names, or which kid went with which mom. After one of the wives called him on it, he came up with the rule that 'She' is so precious that we shouldn't know about her because of the possibility that she would be degraded at some point. Sounds like something a guy would do out of desperation.

Subject: Re: Where is Heavenly Mother?
Date: Feb 11 08:02
Author: lightfingerlouie

I recall LeGrand Richards speaking to us, the missionaries, in the old Salt Lake Mission Home.

He joked about how silly some ministers had been when they asked him about the Mormon belief in a "Heavenly Mother." His answer was "If we have a Heavenly Father, then we have a Heavenly Mother, don't we?" It was a real knee slapper. Everyone laughed. But what did old LeGrand know about "Heavenly Mother?" No more than you or I know, which is nothing.

As you mentioned, its not all that simple. We have a multitude of "Heavenly Mothers," just as we have a multitude of "Gods." Who sorts it out? Not LeGrand Richards, to be sure.

Who are the "the Gods" mentioned in the "Pearl of Great Price?" That one used to make a friend of mine very angry. He would say "We believe in one God, God damn it." Except we don't . We believe in a multitude of Gods.

The church is supposed to have given us a huge amount of "light" to see our way through this life. I have never been able to understand what all the fuss is about. There is no light, and we wander along in the darkness like other mortals.

Subject: Ramblings on a Saturday morning.
Date: Feb 11 08:26
Author: Eric K

This is a theological land mine.

If Heavenly Mother(s) should not be prayed to, what is the reason?

a. She is powerless? If so, why would any woman want to ascend to godhood if godhood for a woman is a replication of the authority a woman has in Mormonism today? In the eternal scheme of things only Heavenly father can answer prayers? If so, she is powerless as she watches her earthly children suffer and must bow to the superiority of her husband.

b. She is too sensitive? Then, is she really a god or goddess?

c. She is too holy? Unapproachable? Then she is of no value to anyone except her husband. She is then irrelevant.

d. Is she preoccupied with her spirit children and creating spirit children? This is then another version of earth life with a near infinite number of spirit children to raise and create. How many women would want that for an eternal goal?

e. Is she blissfully oblivious of her surroundings? Is she unaware of earth and its inhabitants? Did she forget or is given a veil of forgetfulness that we on earth exist?
Do prayers to her awaken her memories of us and it tortures her?

Oh well...

Have a great weekend.

Eric (waiting for the snow to fall here in Tennessee)

Subject: Who stole HM's creative credit?
Date: Feb 11 08:53
Author: wjd

A male can produce the serum for life but without the mother's ability to incubate and nuture a life form *he* cannot produce a living soul no matter how hard the man may try. Yet, the Male Diety gets all of the creative credit. There sure is alot of that type of attitude that exhibits in the church doctrines. I'd like to see a Man God give birth and say the truth about being our creator for once.

Subject: In a made up world
Date: Feb 11 09:23
Author: Thinkingoutloud

you can have it anyway you want. Hopefully, you have a decent premise and then you weave your storyline consistently with it.

It does not have to be realistic - just consistent - so we can suspend our disbelief.

What were Joseph's premises - well, they constantly changed. At first it seemed to just have a spiritual experience - like his dad and others, then to get money, then to start a religion, then to have power over people, then to gain access to women. Each changing premise - required a reworking of the story - so that people could believe.

In regard to the salmon running -

I found myself praying one morning. I don't usually pray. I meditate and have some personal contemplative things I do, but not pray.

I was praying for a son that has battled addiction for over 10 years. I do not know what to do - so feeling helpless and hopeless and desperate - I offered a prayer in the hopes that there is someone, something, that will intercede.

There isn't. I know that it is OK. In fact, that realization helps me to problem solve better and to take more appropriate action. It also helps me to surrender the things that are not in my control and to let go. I know what I can do, and I know what must be left to others and the flow of being human.

But that does not mean that I am not profoundly grateful for life and amazed at all there is. I try to think about Natural selection over a period of millions of years and - viola - here I am with children and a man that I adore and sight, hearing, touch, taste, feelings, love, laughter.

It is almost overwhelming.

My children, IMHO, have it all. They are smart, talented, good looking, healthy, and loved. Why? Why were they born healthy - and not like so many I know. They are alive. Why? I know many who have lost children.

These are questions I can not answer, but I know that I did nothing to deserve all that I have. So - I strive to live a life that will give back - to whatever it is that allowed me to live - to honor all of this.

And I strive to enjoy - the salmon running, the early morning sunrise, the midnight moon. I have little time, this I know. I have today - gratefully.

Subject: The mormon concept of Heavenly Mother is insulting...
Date: Feb 11 09:45
Author: et in Utah ego

In fact it sums up everything despicably misogynistic about TSCC.

It's the same old hypocritical blather of patriarchy extended to cosmic proportions: "we don't oppress woman, we respect her and put her on a pedestal!"

You know, as if opening your car door cancels out making 71% of every dollar of male salary, or not having basic human rights. That sucks, but at least I get a card on Mother's Day!

I honestly can't understand those "mormon feminists" who glom onto Heavenly Mother as proof of something potentially positive in the whole mess. Sheesh! Can't they compare the blank page of Heavenly Mother with any other goddess and notice something's out of whack? Hello? Athena? Lakshmi? Isis? Astarte? Ixtab? Ceridwin? Freya? Venus? Tiamet? Coatlicue?

(Tal, I kinda see Coatlicue, my favorite goddess, incidently, as Salma Hayek in "From Dusk to Dawn," clothed only in an albino boa constrictor.)

Subject: Carolyn Pearson
Date: Feb 11 09:54
Author: thinkingoutloud

wrote a piece about reversing the roles of men and women and the mythology of Heavenly Father versus Heavenly Mother. This was in the 80's and I hoped I could find it but I didn't.

Basically, she tells about a group of girls sitting in a "priesthoodess meeting." The girls are told to honor their priesthood and that they should find a young man that will obey their calling as women. They should pray to heavenly mother, but never mention heavenly father because he is too sacred.

It went on and on - and I am not doing it justice. At the end - it made the point - that all the rhetoric about women being honored and the role of women as sacred is just plain invalidating and marginalizing.

If any one has that - it would be great if you could post it.

Subject: Kirby had some of the same musings this morning
Date: Feb 11 10:06
Author: Star Buck

A little diddy about families and the lack of evidence for Heavenly Mother:

Subject: That's a classic!
Date: Feb 11 12:09
Author: Nightingale

I enjoyed reading that Kirby. Thanks for the link!

Here's a good line:

"Part of me wonders why, if two-parent families are so important to religion, God appears to be a single parent?"

Subject: Re: Where is Heavenly Mother?
Date: Feb 11 10:19
Author: nao crer
Mail Address:
From Lance S. Owens - Joseph Smith and Kabbalah:The Occult Connection

>Not only was the Divine plural in Kabbalistic theosophy, but in its first subtle emanation from unknowable unity God had taken on a dual form as Male and Female; a supernal Father and Mother, Hokhmah and Binah, were God's first emanated forms. Kabbalists used frankly sexual metaphors to explain how the creative intercourse of Hokhmah and Binah generated further creation. Indeed, sexual motifs and imagery permeate Kabbalistic theosophy, and the Divine mystery of sexual conjunction--a hierosgamos or sacred wedding--captured Kabbalistic imagination. Marital sexual intercourse became for the Kabbalist the highest mystery of human action mirroring the Divine: an ecstatic sacramental evocation of creative union, an image of God's masculine and feminine duality brought again to unity. Of interest to Mormonism, among several groups of seventeenth- and eighteenth-century Kabbalists, polygamous and variant sexual relationships sometimes served as social expressions of these sacral mysteries.16

The woman was the third piece of the trinity - She was Wisdom and as such was the Holy Ghost.

Subject: Not in the "discussions"
Date: Feb 11 10:48
Author: Baura

Missionary: Mrs. Brown, you might be interested to know that we are the only church which teaches of a Mother in Heaven. You have a Heavenly Father AND a Heavenly Mother also.

Mrs. Brown: A Heavenly Mother? You mean that in times of sorrow or loneliness or when I'm overwhelmed with the things of the world I can go to my Heavenly Mother for love, comfort, understanding and solace?

Missionary: Uh, no, as a matter of fact if you are caught doing that you are in danger of getting excommunicated.

Subject: What Bruce R. McConkie would say in his from the grave "Mormon Doctrine"
Date: Feb 11 12:10
Author: activejackmormon

"Before this world and existence, there was another existence where our father in heaven was a faithful servant to his father and probably served as an apostle much like myself. In this pre-pre-existence, our father in heaven, Elohim, had a Kolobian wife who was faithful and bore Elohim many children, was a good cook, a good housekeeper and a compliant lover. When Elohim reached his eternal glory and became a God, Elohim and his Kolobian wife became a family forever and began to sire many spiritual offspring. In that previous existence, there were also many women who were faithful servants of their father in heaven, who for no fault of their own married men who were less than valiant. Married to intellectuals, liberals, adulterers, apostates and tax administrators, these women deserved exaltation but their spouses did not. Elohim took these women as his plural spiritual wives and also begat many spiritual children with them."

"In our current existence, the spiritual children of Elohim's Kolobian wife our immediately recognizable. The male descendents trim their hair short, wear conservative business attire and are successful selling insurance, or founding multilevel marketing organizations. Many have become the general authorities of the one true church in this dispensation."

"Some of the spiritual wives of Elohim were good and compliant wives and bore children willingly, and though they weren't quite as good at quilting, housekeeping and playing the organ as Elohim's Kolobian wife, they did their best and were rewarded with the kind of children who became those who serve in Elder's quorums, sunday school teachers, and become school teachers, plumbers, mechanics and bureaucrats."

"Some of Elohim's spiritual wives were good wives but had an independent streak. Instead of quilting and playing the harpsichord, they like to read, and go out with some of the other like-minded spiritual wives to museums and Kolobian art exhibits. These wives sired spiritual off-spring only when Elohim bought them flowers, shaved and wore spiritual colognes and kolobesiacs. Their children became college professors, therapists, and generally come to church, but push the buttons of Gospel Doctrine teahers asking questions they shouldn't ask. Some of these spiritual children become apostates."

"Generally, the more faithful the spiritual children, the more beautiful and compliant the heavenly mother. You can tell by looking at them who had heavenly mothers with good hair, and bad hair. You can tell by their spiritual children which ones kept a clean house or a messy house. You can tell which ones played the organ and which ones played the harmonica or jews harp. Siring children from some spiritual mothers was a joy. For others, our father in heaven had to work at it. Some even required Elohim to fast and pray."

"Yes brothers and sisters, by their fruits ye shall know them. We all have a common father in heaven. However that which we do that is good can generally be attributed to him. That which is unworthy you can attribute to your heavenly mother. The first born son of the first wife was our older brother Jesus. Some of us are full brothers of Jesus. The rest are mere half brothers. You can generally tell which people are full spiritual brothers of Jesus. I'm guessing that most of you are not among them."

"I say this verily in the name of my full brother Jesus Christ, amen."

Subject: fun . . .
Date: Feb 11 12:16
Author: thinkingoutloud

being mormon - 10% of your income.
Going to the temple - $10.00 to rent clothes
Living worthy - $80.00 scriptures, $75.00 magazine subscriptions, $500 in nicknacks and Mormon literature

A post on Bruce R. McConkie - priceless.

Subject: When I thought that I knew what I believed.....
Date: Feb 11 13:09
Author: Jane Aubrey #1

...I sincerely believed that the Holy Ghost was Heavenly Mother. It makes sense....the 'Comforter'. Now, I'm a mess. I don't have a clue what to believe. I guess that means that logically, I'm fighting the belief that really, God doesn't least in the form that I was always taught. So that means no Heavenly Mother.

Subject: #1 reason the church doesn't talk about Heavenly Mother
Date: Feb 11 19:42
Author: Stray Mutt

The mainstream Christian world already thinks Mormons are heretics/satanists/nut jobs for thinking God was once a man and that humans can become gods. That's why GBH weasels away when interviewers ask about it. If the church were to preach about Mother in Heaven -- never mind multiple Mothers -- christendom would have a cow. As for celestial polygamy, hell, they won't even admit culpability for earthly polygamy.


Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church

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