Subject:

PBS's The Battle for the Bible; More “Reformation” – “Post Mormon” Parallels; Emotional Knowing and the Evolution of Religious Organisms

Date:

Apr 26, 2007

Author:

bob mccue


Last night, while unwinding for a few minutes before going to bed, I stumbled upon and watched about half of "The Battle for the Bible", a PBS production that can be accessed through battleforthebible_2007-04-26   It did not present any information that was new to me, but did synthesize a lot of information in a helpful manner. And yet again, I was struck by the way in which so many of us who are now stumbling out of the Mormon cloister are merely going through the process that most of the rest of the Western world went through with Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther and the rest of the great reformers. Our epiphanies are 500 year old in the Western world. Another reason to give “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah" who Jesus anointed Prophet and Seer. So, thanks for that Joe, and you too Brig.

For example:

• Back when the Bible was written in Latin, it was illegal to possess even fragments of it in English, or to communicate about biblical contents in English. The first English Bibles were translated and copied by hand, and then circulated illegally. Tyndale and many other leaders in this regard were burned at the stake. Countless others were put in jail or punished in severe ways.

• We owe to Tyndale and his illegal Bible much of the language that was incorporated into the King James version of the Bible, and has shaped the English language. Tyndale was one of England’s finest scholars at the time, and left England in order to produce the translation and publish it, since this would have been punishable by death had he remained in England. Parts of Europe were more enlightened, including Antwerp. After the Tyndale Bible was published in Antwerp, it was smuggled back into England one page at a time, interleafed within larger books. The pages of the Tyndale Bible were purposefully made small so they could be smuggled in that way. And then, the Tyndale Bibles were reassembled in England, and sold at a high profit on the black market there. It was largely the profit motive of Antwerp printers and publishers that enabled the circulation of the English Bible in England. Tyndale lived in hiding in Antwerp for years, but was eventually discovered and turned over to the authorities by a zealous Catholic Englishman. He was in prison for a couple years before being executed. Ironically, a short time later, the Anglican Church started to come into being and the Tyndale Bible was legalized in England. It became foundational to the Anglican movement. Tyndale was a posthumous English hero. He is now ranked with Shakespeare among the foremost creators of the modern English language.

• The controversy with regard to the English translation of the Bible was, pure and simple, a power struggle. Information is power. As long as the people did not know what the Bible said, they were much more easily controlled by the Catholic hierarchy. The movement that produced the English Bible sought to overturn the Catholic hierarchy, and place worshipers in direct relationship with God in more the fashion indicated by the New Testament. This was a simple question of how much power institutions would have, and how much individuals would have.

• An important precursor to the English and other translations of the Bible that eventually had such a profound influence, was the identification by scholars (many of them Catholic clerics) of older and more reliable Greek and Latin documents relating to the Bible. The New Testament was originally written in Greek, and accordingly when a new Greek New Testament was assembled, and then translated into Latin so that was accessible to educated Catholics, it produced a shock wave within a relatively small but influential group, as a result of the stunning differences between this believed to be more accurate version of the New Testament and what had accepted as God's irrevocable word. The creation of these works was part of the legal, scholarly enterprise, conducted primarily by those who were aligned with the hierarchy. However, they stimulated people like Wycliffe and Tyndale to rethink their theology, and engage in acts of heresy and sedition, as then defined, in order to do what they believed was right. They and their followers acted at great personal risk. We are not talking about shunning or "mere" social isolation. These were matters of confiscation of property, imprisonment, torture and death. And yet, thousands upon thousands took these risks over and over again. Such is the driving force toward human individual liberty.

• Prior to the English and other translations of the Bible, the Catholic Mass and other ceremonies and the individual and community experiences they produced were the core of religious experience. With the production of the Bible in English, history (as dimly perceived through the Bible, but history nonetheless) and the ideas transmitted by that history became foundational to the Christian religious experience. This produced a plethora of Protestant faiths, as a result of the Christian community’s newfound ability to read their history, and draw different conclusions from it. The attempt to discern history, and later the natural processes that lay behind it, trumped dogma based religious authority.

• The Catholic Church in England than the rest of Europe violently resisted production of the English and other translations of the Bible, for the reasons just indicated. This included regularly imprisoning people; taking the property away; burning leaders at the stake; etc. And yet, the English Bible multiplied like rabbits in the black market, and spread throughout the population. Over the course of a few centuries, it fundamentally changed the relationship between Europe's peoples and it's religious authorities.

• However, the religious institutions in question still remain powerful as a result of the massive properties they accumulated during their periods of dominance, while their members remained for the most part ignorant. So, you have massive social institutions that are not vibrant influences in most European communities, but are still serious forces to be reckoned in some ways while being ignored (or paid lip service) by the vast majority of European populations. As they say, Mormons and Catholics believe opposite dogmas. Catholics dogma says that the current Pope is infallible, but no Catholic really believes that. Mormon dogma says that the current Prophet is fallible, and no Mormon really believes that.

• I will leave it to you to draw parallels between this history and recent Mormon experience.

• After leaving European history, the documentary brought religion into the Americas with the Puritans. They wanted far more reform than was occurring within the Church of England, and brought their religious zeal to North America in the early 1600s. However, after a number of generations this fervour waned, and then in the 1700s a” Great Awakening" occurred (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening) This introduced a new level of emotional experience to the American religious landscape, which has to an extent characterized it ever since. Mormonism was a product of the "Second Great Awakening" in the early 1800s, as were countless other tiny religious sects, a few of which have survived to become significant. The Seventh-day Adventists are probably the best-known among those. Powerful individual and group oriented emotional experiences commonly, within religious groups at this time, anchor and "emotional knowing" that in an odd way renders history, scientific and other information irrelevant. Authority established on the base of this kind of emotional knowing, accordingly, is much more resistant to the kinds of historical and scientific acid that dissolve the foundation of Catholic authority during the Reformation.

• This brings us to the topic of social evolution. I was chatting with a post Mormon friend a little while ago on a related topic, so I will record that here as well. He wondered out loud why Mormonism (in his perception) is becoming increasingly defensive in a time of such great liberty. His wife and family are still active members, and hence he is in regular touch with what is going on from a social psychological point of view within his Mormon community.

• At that point in the conversation, he and I had already discussed some of the concepts described above. I then outlined for him some of the reading I did a while ago with regard to complex systems theory in the biological world, and we discussed parallels between biological and social evolution.

• Both of these types of evolution are based on information transfer. Genetics has enabled the most helpful analysis with regard to biological evolution. Our genetic codes are copied from one generation to the next, with mutations of various sorts sneaking in that enable organisms, over generations, to adapt to the environment. Accordingly, the most capable organisms survive and pass their genes along, while the least capable do not. The important point is that biological evolution is based on a genetic information transfer mechanism. In fact, there is some reasonable physical theory around these days to suggest that all reality -- the very foundations of physics -- is based on information transfer as opposed to any kind of matter.

• In any event, social organisms are also created, maintained, and evolved on the basis of information transfer. At the moment, the social organism that is Mormonism is under ferocious attack because of the Internet and other communications media that make it impossible for authorities to control information flows in the way they did in times past. Think of a walled city whose walls suddenly fell down. The authorities in the city are scrambling to rebuild, and finding that the old stones will not stick together.

• There is a violent, mostly invisible, battle going on at the borders of Mormonism. Mormon apologists kick up as much dust as possible in order to create confusion, since this is one way of slowing down the transmission of information from the outside to the inside. Pleas from the pulpit to avoid the Internet, stay away from free threatening materials, etc. are all likewise efforts to maintain the increasingly porous information blocking boundary around the Mormon organism. This performs a function similar to the human skin, or the boundary around a cell -- it is supposed to keep certain things out while allowing certain things in. When the information coming in changes in a significant way for a long time, the nature of what is on the inside (the social organism itself) eventually changes too. That, is one of the Reformation's greatest lessons.

• However, the builders of new religious institutions in the United States stumbled upon a powerful new defence mechanism -- a new kind of wall. That is the substitution of faith based on emotional knowing for dogmatic faith in a certain kind of authority. No one sat down and figured this out. Rather, to use the analogy to biological evolution, various new social organisms were produced during the first and second great awakenings in North America, and those best suited to survival in a new social environment have survived. Emotional knowing is it that is at the base of most of these. These social organisms now use sophisticated mass media combined with aggressive personal sales campaigns to push emotional buttons as a foundational part of their recruitment techniques. When we study the cognitive bias research in the context of marketing in general (See Robert Levine, “The Power of Persuasion” for example), we conclude that marketing campaigns are designed to touch buttons related to authority, moving with the herd, etc. that have been shown to be systemic cognitive weaknesses in most human beings. When that analysis is then carried over into the systems used to recruit new members to various religious institutions (including the Mormon), and then shape those new members into functioning parts of the hive, we find precisely the same tools in use, and in many ways more effectively than virtually all commercial organizations use them (see http://www3.telus.net/public/rcmccue/bob/documents/rs.mormon%20use%20of%20persuasive%20technique1002365.pdf).

• It is interesting to note the parallels between the "feeling is knowing" force within modern North American religion in particular, and the ritual based power of the medieval Catholic experience. In the Catholic case, the worshipers had virtually no information with regard to the history of their faith, what the Bible said, etc., and were shaped into a community by the perceived authority given by God to the Catholic priests, and the impressive rituals those priests directed. These were the community's heartbeat, as well as punctuating significant life events such as births, marriages, and deaths. As that heartbeat faded and intellect began to shape belief and behaviour, ritual faded from view. In fact, most of the Reformers were allergic to Catholic ritual and all of the pageantry that went along with it. The pendulum accordingly swung to the opposite end of the spectrum until the Great Awakening, and events that followed. As a result of that process, church meetings are now often held in elaborate, massive auditoriums with cutting-edge audiovisual systems that facilitate displays of pageantry that dwarf anything the medieval Catholic Church could have produced. These presentations are designed for maximum emotional impact. Focusing on the test groups are used to measure the impact of these presentations right down to the physiological level. And, while believers have access to overwhelming amounts of information with regard to the Bible, the history of their faith, the interface between religious belief in science, etc., for the most part they do not take advantage of that. First of all, there is so much; second of all, it is so complicated and third, once you’ve had the right kind of emotional experience, it just doesn’t matter.

• In short, the "feelings" barrier is formidable. However, it still has its limitations and vulnerabilities. For example, it does not function well when new potential converts consider Mormonism. You've got to give people the feeling before they get the information. That is hard to do with the most potential converts in an Internet age. And, increasing numbers of those who were raised within Mormonism and finding an inadequate in various ways, and beginning to look for reasons as to why this may be. Many of them eventually Reject their emotional experience as a reliable means of knowledge. A crucial factor in this regard is often information with regard to how many other religious groups use precisely the same anchor (emotion-based knowledge) to defend their authority; how people within these groups have almost precisely the same experiences as Mormons have; and how those people would use their experiences as authority for radically different and often bizarre (from a Mormon point of view) beliefs. The more widespread information of this type becomes, the more Mormons tend to question the reliability of their own beliefs. Accordingly, this type of type of information is being carefully defended against at the Mormon borders right now. The primary defence is massive amounts of dust kicked up by Mormon scientists and historians attempting to defend their faith. Many of these people are fine scholars in their own fields, who embarrass themselves by venturing into the apologetic free. I count Richard Bushman, Davis Bitton, Hugh Nibley and many other Mormon scholars in this group, though they deserve great respect for work they have done in other fields.

• It is also important to note that the communications media is, in a way, just getting going in terms of producing information and sorting that into more usable forms that might be called wisdom. Wikipedia is a prime example of this. More recently, youtube and various other powerful data sharing and sorting devices have mushroomed into existence. And, most importantly, generations of young people are now rising for whom it is instinctual to use the Internet as a means of finding out what is going on, while they participate in the creation of wisdom (see http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/sanger07/sanger07_index.html for some very insightful comments along these lines).

• Some believe that the Internet will be usable by authoritarian groups to further narrow the information to which the masses have access. In some cases, this is likely to be the case. But again using history as our guide, the general rule is that as more information becomes available, a democratization of power occurs. Not an absolute democratization, but the spread of information tends to force those who have power tend to give up at least some of it. The Reformation might be used as exhibit number one in this argument. What happened in the Soviet Union might be Exhibit 2. What is happening currently in China is a fascinating Exhibit 3.

• As information of the type I've described circulates broadly within the Mormon group, what will happen to its leaders? Using history as our guide, we note that in many cases the leaders of the failed social ventures are violently deposed. However, in today's more humane world (see http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html), it is more likely that they will be simply ignored. Think of a family that has changed radically in terms of values and religious beliefs from one generation to the next. In most cases, at least to an extent the kids and grandkids still hang around grandpa and grandma, but the kids make sure to teach the grandkids that what grandpa and grandma have to say along racist, misogynist, literalist religious, and other ignorant lines should be politely ignored. In countless communities where literalist religious beliefs still have significant influence, this is just what happens to old folks like grandpa and grandma. We love them; we respect what they did for us while raising us in the best way they knew how; we want to remain connected to them; but their values differ radically from ours, so kids, smile and ignore what they have to say.

• Along this road now walk the Mormon prophets with regard to many church attending, and even a temple recommend holding, Mormons. Many of these people have corresponded with me, and hence I speak from first-hand experience. From what I can tell, this group is significant, and increasing. They cannot pay the social price to break with Mormonism, but they are not prepared to take Mormonism seriously anymore.

• One of the difficulties with using biological evolutionary models to understand cultural evolution is that the information transmission and receipt mechanisms at the cultural level are so difficult to pin down. A lot of this depends upon human perception, and we all know how unsystematic that is. Accordingly, we are still guessing with regard to many of the important mechanisms that underlie social evolution. We are at about the same level there as we are with regard to understanding economics. Similar dynamics shaped both areas, with economics being the more simple of the two since it is a subset of social behaviour.

• However, we can observe social behaviour (if not the information transmission that produces it), and that the observed behaviours can be modeled to a significant degree using the same kind of models that are used to explain how new species emerge, for example. This means that scientists are probably on the right track, but have a long way to go before reaching an understanding of how cultural evolution works.

• That having been said, we don't need to understand any more than we do right now to accurately observe that social organisms like the Catholic Church at the beginning of the Reformation, and the Mormon church for the last couple of decades, are under severe threat as a result of information that will radically change their nature once it is permitted inside the organism, and has a chance to circulate.

This is all good, as far as I'm concerned. That does not mean we will experience only beauty and light during the course of this process. Again, consider the Reformation.

Those of us who are involved in a difficult personal situations that relate to our changing beliefs can take comfort from the fact that we walk a road that has been well used throughout all of known human history. We can simply accept its difficulties, while enjoying the miracles that have come into our lives. And most of all, we can be satisfied that as time passes, our small efforts will contribute toward lives that involve more consciousness, more freedom, and more fulfillment for our children, grandchildren etc.

Often, ironically, this also means more pain. If you want miss both the pain and the joy, take the blue pill.

best,
bob

 

Subject:

As always, thanks for sharing. n/t

Date:

Apr 26 13:11

Author:

Frosted Pickle

Mail Address:


 

 

 

Subject:

Being true to self matters but the pain is real

Date:

Apr 26 13:24

Author:

Rich


Before my own metamorphosis I had done a superbly efficient job of enslaving my own children to mormonism (all grown now) . Their in-laws and husbands are enslaved to the core just like I was (in-laws are Stake Presidents - related to G.A.s etc.). They are good people all and I hold no animosity in that regard. But the view my children have toward me is more on the pity side, "poor Dad, he's been so deceived". In reality, however, all of us that have tasted of true liberation, and are willing to suffer the emotional, social and sometimes financial pain of loving the truth more than the social safety of conformity, are indeed walking the same path of all peoples who have suffered for the sake of liberated thought. Such have been courageous throughout all history, and I count myself fortunate to be included, though in a small way, with those who have suffered far more than have I, including loss of life, in embracing liberation in the truest form - freedom to think and to express the fruit of liberated thought. As painful as the diminished relationship with family and friends may be, being true to self is critical, foundational, to happiness and peace with self in the deepest sense. There is no going back. However, the exercise of wisdom, kindness, empathy and compassion in those strained relationships is more important now than ever. There is virtually no room for arrogance or manifest disrespect for those still captive. Pain and all, life is indescribably better.

 

Subject:

The Joseph Smith Project

Date:

Apr 26 13:41

Author:

Squid


One of my TBM friends in Utah recently attended a fireside where Richard Anderson was the speaker. Reportedly, Anderson mentioned that LDS and some non-LDS scholars were engaged in a "Joseph Smith Project" that would be a multi-volume compilation of everything Joseph Smith.

So at least the LDS church scholars are maintaining the appearance of scholary transparency. Now a critical analysis is another thing...

 

Subject:

The availability of information

Date:

Apr 26 13:59

Author:

Iconoclast


Parallels are often drawn between the information age of the internet and the Reformation which had it's genesis with Wycliffe and Tyndale as translators. It was brought to a head with Luther as the reformer aided by Gutenberg and his invention of the printing press in the 1450's. It then gained momentum with the King James Bible in the early 16o0's.

I have heard some opine that the Catholic church survived the onslaught of its own information age. One of the things many people fail to consider when saying this, is that most people were illiterate at the time and that gave them considerable time to reform themselves.

Looking back from a historical perspective it seems as though this adjustment was immediate, but in reality they had time to acclimatize. It took decades, perhaps a century, before the population reached literacy rates that were threatening. And even then they were constrained by fear, control, obedience and superstition.

And people who, for the most part, spent every waking daylight hour laboring for their sustenance were not given to long debates over matters of philosophy and theology. In short the Catholic church had time on its side.

The Mormon Church has no such luxury. In a single generation the information will have become available, considered, debated, processed and acted upon by a generation eager, anxious and starving for it. Even if they don't immediately recognize it as such.

Mormon leadership is so far out of touch with this reality that the only response they can muster is to develop a siege mentality and totally avoid any communication with the membership. They recognize that anything they do, say or write will be recorded and used against them.

They are like my own FIL who, in his eighties, assumes patriarchal position of authority in his own (and other's) family and thinks that 4 generations of decendants should, as a matter of differential respect, abide by his (and by extention church leaders) interpretation of history and doctrine.

It has become excrutiatingly painful to witness. And many of the rising generation are not buying it and are voting with their feet and heading for the exits.

The church faces a fate worse than death and that is irrelavance. A fate already encontered by the leadership. And Grandpa.


Regards,
Iconoclast

 

Subject:

Re: PBS's The Battle for the Bible; More “Reformation” – “Post Mormon” Parallels; Emotional Knowing and the Evolution of Religious Organisms

Date:

Apr 26 14:46

Author:

Bugged


Thank you for your post. I find much of value here.

I would pushback in one area though. You wrote:

"As they say, Mormons and Catholics believe opposite dogmas. Catholics dogma says that the current Pope is infallible, but no Catholic really believes that. Mormon dogma says that the current Prophet is fallible, and no Mormon really believes that."

In my discussions with Mormons about problematic doctrines, and particularly those that no longer form a part of Mormon theology (e.g., blood atonement, the Adam-God theory, blacks and the priesthood, and to a lesser extent poligamy), I hear many admitting that the early prophets and apostles who fomented these doctrines were wrong, but that the were doing the best they could with the information they then had available.

In other words, I am increasingly hearing the apologetic that they were not speaking as prophets, but only as men, and that as further light and knowledge was revealed to the leadership, line upon line, such doctrines fell by the way side.

This aspect of Mormonism--that current prophets can contradict former prophets, whether or not the former prophet said, effectively "thus saith the Lord"--is likely to give Mormonism more staying power.

Thoughts?

 

Subject:

Re: PBS's The Battle for the Bible; More “Reformation” – “Post Mormon” Parallels; Emotional Knowing and the Evolution of Religious Organisms

Date:

Apr 27 10:26

Author:

bob mccue


That is why I said "current prophet". Try getting a TBM to admit that GBH is wrong about something. Start with the "man can become god" etc. thing. They are usually unaware that he said what he did in that regard.

Apologists are a poor test for what Mormons believe. Try "real" Mormons.

best,
bob

 

Subject:

Re: PBS's The Battle for the Bible; More “Reformation” – “Post Mormon” Parallels; Emotional Knowing and the Evolution of Religious Organisms

Date:

Apr 27 11:14

Author:

Bugged


Well said, Bob. I humbly retract my push back. I think you've nailed it.

By the way, as Doug suggested, I would love to see you publish a book (or two or twenty) on these types of topics. I would RUN, not walk, to Barnes and Noble, if you did.

Best regards,

Bugged

 

Subject:

Good grief, Bob. How do you put this stuff together so easily?

Date:

Apr 27 10:59

Author:

Doug


Your writing is amazing. It really is time for you to think about publishing a book to help people see through the haze.

When I read your material, I feel like I do with some good movie reviews. I like the movie, then I read the review and understand why I liked it and sometimes even like it more.

 

Subject:

Ideas about your book.

Date:

Apr 27 11:10

Author:

Doug


Perhaps you could form a charitable foundation which would be funded by sales of your new book, "Post Mormon Essays." You have already written and studied so many of these topics and you could include writings by Steve Benson and so many others who would gladly contribute.

You have this amazing genius ability to describe the whole process on so many levels.

 

 

Subject:

Iconoclast nailed it - the specter of irrelevance is dogging GAs already....

Date:

Apr 27 13:39

Author:

winter


Great stuff, Bob. My own Cliffs Notes version of western religious civilization -

800 -1400 Loads of religious wars, Byzantine/Roman churches split, Crusades, Dark Ages, general religious mess.

1450 - printing press. Quantum leap in information availability
Shortly thereafter, Martin Luther becomes bestselling author, triggers Reformation.
Henry VIII challenges papal authority
300 years of internal European religious based war follows.

By late 1700s wars are no longer religiously justified - they are between states, principally colonial powers trying to one-up each other.

Churches consolidate power at the civic level, and this remains true until early 20th century. Look at the stone church buildings in the older part of most North American cities, built roughly 100 years ago. These are very serious structures, which exude power and permanence. The SL Temple falls into this category, as does St Patricks in NYC, Madeiline in SLC, and many many other examples. These were major focal points of social power and control.

After WW II, churches social power and control collapsed utterly in Europe. From 1960 to 1990 it collapsed almost utterly in Canada, most spectacularly in Quebec.

It is in the process of collapsing in Central ands South America right now. Last week Mexico City approved an abortion law over strenuous objection of the Catholic Church.

Mainline churches have lost much power in the US at the city level (Utah excepted!) but they still hold considerable sway at the national level. I see this as a symptom of Manifest Destiny, an idea that died in Europe when the colonial empire disintegrated after WWII. The US colonial empire hasn't quite disintegrated yet.

The US and Utah in particular are bringing up the rear on the collapse of the relevance of church leaders, but the process is under way here. Very little in the 3 hour block is really relevant to living in the world. It is only relevant to maintaining the organization. A non-Mo listening to General Conference is puzzled at the irrelevance of the talks. They are not about how to live better. They are about making the organization more successful.

Like Quebec and the Catholic Church, I foresee a massive shift in a single generation with respect to strict adherence to LDS dogma. I think we are already 10 years into that 30 year generation. It will be a different world in 20 more years.

I also expect Islam will undergo a similar shift sometime in the next 50 years.

winter

 

Subject:

Hard to say about the 50 year prediction for Islam.....

Date:

Apr 27 23:54

Author:

winter


My grandmother, who died in the 1980s, was an adult with 4 children before she was allowed to vote here in the good old US of A. Lynchings were still going on at that time.

I remember "Colored" drinking fountains in public parks.

Current Supreme Court justice Ginsberg was in the first class to admit women to Columbia Law School. That was 1963 IIRC. I was in HS.

In 1960, the Catholic Church had a stranglehold on the citizens and government of Quebec. Thirty years later it had completely lost its grip on both.

Collapse (i.e. major social change) is hard to predict. I read that even with all the turmoil in Iraq, having the latest model cell phone is a huge deal among Iraqis, especially the youth. I can't imagine that Islamic regimes, no matter how controlling, will be able to corral all the young people in their countries, when the kids can see how the rest of the world operates.

Europe underwent huge changes soon after the invention of the printing press, the Reformation and the discovery of the Americas being the two biggies. WWWeb is still a teenager, and it is obviously changing the world. I think its final impact will dwarf the inpact of printing, but what that impact will be is hard to predict. I know I didn't see the Web coming 20 years ago, and I'm in the computer industry.

I doubt if Henry Ford foresaw interstate highways, suburbs, and Middle East wars, all side-effects of automobiles.

So, my guess of 50 years for Islam to loose its grip is just that - a SWAG.

winter

 

Subject:

Hi. As always, a very thoughtful essay. I was reminded in the middle of reading

Date:

Apr 27 22:56

Author:

flattopSF


of a couple of books I recently re-read, one of which was Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror." She discusses in detailed length the idea of general disenchantment with religion in the decades following a great cataclysm. In that case, it was the appearance and devastation of the plague. Ensuing generations lived like there would be no tomorrow, and some scholars credit the plague and its effects on society with helping jump-start the Renaissance and ultimately the Protestant Reformation. I wonder, though (as does Mrs. Tuchman), if the same phenomena could not be brought forward to today to help explain modern disenchantment with religion: the aspects of two world wars, the atomic bomb, and the doomsaying Jeremiad of modern newsmedia, etc., combine powerfully to impress on the unconscious that if there is a god, then s/he is certainly taking a nice long slumber right now; so what difference does it then make if we take a good hard critical look at what s/he has done (or not) for us lately?

The Mormon church is not the only religious establishment that is fighting against disinterest and irrelevance. I don't need to repeat what winter has already spelled out. And while it is not as dramatic a parting of the ways, there are also secularizing shifts taking place in Asia.

I also think that as new dire realities face the world, religion has less and less to contribute to the real solutions that it will be necessary to create.

How will any church, for example, positively contribute to problem-solving what will be a serious shortage of clean fresh water in the western half of North America in the next thirty years? Las Vegas, NV is presently trying to cut deals whereby they would be able to access fresh groundwater from the Great Basin (including central and northwestern Utah, distances of well over 250 miles), and pipeline it to Las Vegas to be flushed into sewage by millions of tourists and the ever-growing population of the city. Here is how the Mormon church is contributing to that situation: they and 95% of their puppet politicians are hopping into bed with Las Vegas' developers and city planners. They're screwing the farmers of Utah who are both their constituents and their true blue Mormon power-base. Will there be some explaining to do when central Utah becomes [more of] a dustbowl?

 

Subject:

The Bible was first translated into English by Catholics

Date:

Apr 27 23:24

Author:

ohwell

Mail Address:


St. Bede to be exact. Also the Douey-Rheims English version of the Bible came out BEFORE the KJV. The problem wasn't translating it, but accuracy in translation. I recommend the magisterial book Stripping of the Altars by Eamon Duffy.

 

Subject:

Excellent parallel Bob, but even worse ...

Date:

Apr 28 08:46

Author:

Mason

Mail Address:


> a new kind of wall. That is the substitution of faith based on >emotional knowing for dogmatic faith in a certain kind of authority."


... it isn't even just a "substitution" per se, but rather an additional source of authority. In fact, as we know, for Mormons and others, it usually becomes the ULTIMATE source of authority. All of the “authorities” end up working together as an arsenal (I agree no one ORIGINALLY sat down and figured this out), and it doesn't matter which one gets you in the door. Whether it is dogmatic faith in prophetic authority or scriptures, the power of family and social tradition, a testimony (the objective of Mormon emotional knowing), etc. - the result is the same. To your point, if you get in the door, those around you will then take any of the other sources and point you to the ultimate authority of getting your own testimony. Talk about a mental bind - unlike the other “external” authorities, you create this “internal” authority yourself.

Your parallel to the earlier defense mechanisms of Catholicism was right on. Of course, we know these authority sources “play both ways”, operating equally well “on offense” as "conversion" mechanisms and "control" mechanisms within. All of them work in parallel to imperceptibly connect you. Any solid combination of these formidable barriers works like a trump card - and it doesn’t matter what order you come to believe them, or whether you even know that you do. No wonder it all takes so long to shake.

Excellent parallel Bob. Hope your settling in to your new job. Look forward to catching up.

 



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