This is a fascinating story of a Mormon family recently accepting the fact the church is not what it claims and rescuing their son from a Mormon mission. Story told as it developed on the Recovery from Mormonism bulletin board. Updated June 2007
Part 1	My son is on a mission, I’ve just left the church…today
Part 2	The parents are flying out this evening to get their missionary son
Part 3 A	“Bright Eyes” the daughter at home writes while her parents are getting their son (her brother)
Part 3 B	The brother is coming home
Part 4	The Family Returns
Part 5	Stake Presidents Meeting
Part 6	The family - after a 1 week vacation

Subject:	My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 24, 2007
Author:	A Musing Grace [her words are shaded in yellow]

He's been out for 7 months in a south eastern state. I have been going through a process of spiritual exploration the last couple of years and tried to make my new ideas fit with the church. I did a search a couple weeks ago for "metaphysical mormons." I discovered I'm not alone in my feelings and beliefs. I've also discovered that my conversion 27 years ago came without all the facts. I have since learned things about church history and doctrine I can't abide.

My husband isn't sure what to think, but supports my decision. He is going to take time to explore and rediscover what he believes and go through his own process. I feel really fortunate to have his acceptance and support when this can really tear a couple and family apart.

My younger children are reeling at being deceived and really finding out what is what in the history of the church. We have always been open in our ideas here and very frank with discussion. I'd never leave the church and not tell my kids why.

This has all happened in the last 24 hours. I'm on my way to buy gentile underwear. :-)

Soooo, I have a kid on a mission whose letters are becoming more "Zombie for the Lord" with each passing week. How being obedient is the only way to be blessed. How it's so hard, and his brain is in overload but he knows God will help him. Etc. Etc. He even hurt himself on his mission and told his grandma that God knew more about his knee than a doctor did and the priesthood blessing was the ultimate power. (I had to personally call the mission president to insist he be able to see a doctor after three weeks of emails of being in pain and having limited motion. He put up a fuss and pulled the church authority thing and even mentioned having him sent home - as a threat to put me in my place. I was like FINE, SEND MY BOY HOME.

Well, the knee isn't bad enough to come home.

All you RM's out there, all you parents with any thoughts about how we should approach my son.

I'd just love to have some feedback. Do I just sit tight and not rock his world and let him know what I've decided when he gets home? (That just doesn't seem right to me...) Do I tell him and share and totally destroy his mission experience? Do I view his mission as a cult activity and go and bring him home? Do I wait for him to come home and then deprogram him?

I have come to think of the missionary experience as a MLM thing. It's been around a long time. Who is joining Amway nowadays? Most people know what that is about. I feel the same about the church. People aren't falling for it like they used to. He's wasting his time. Do we just let him. He's there because of the things we erroneously taught him. Do we try to correct it now, when he is alone without support from balanced people?

Thank you friends.

A Musing Grace

Subject:	Welcome! So glad you found your way here.
Date:	May 24 21:33
Author:	Cheryl

New underwear? Already? Wow! I'm impressed.

Sit tight and think for a while about what to do about your son. For now, take care of your own needs and those of your husband and younger children.

You'll be able to know about your other question when the time is right.

I'm so proud of you for standing up for your son and seeing to his medical needs. That's your most important job on his behalf for now. Be sure he has the food, housing, medical care, and other physical necessities to be safe and healthy.

Worry about the brainwashing and other problems when you and he are more ready to face such a challenge.

Keep posting and know we care and we understand your struggles.

Subject:	I join Cheryl in welcoming you.....
Date:	May 24 21:41
Author:	wings

Glad to hear you found this place. It must be difficult to have your Son on a mission during this awakening.

Looking forward to hearing about your journey!

wings

Subject:	Re: I join Cheryl in welcoming you.....
Date:	May 25 03:41
Author:	A Musing Grace

I'm glad I found you too. It's such a weird and wonderful time right now. I've tied up 30 years in the church and am sort of just taking it a minute at a time.

I'm happy but I know there are some tough times ahead...like when my leaders find out what's going on here.

And then dealing with the mission issue and how to be honest and find the right timing.

Thanks for the welcome.

Subject:	You are in a difficult position.
Date:	May 24 21:52
Author:	racer

Welcome out of the Morg. I am glad your family is beginning to see the church for what it is.

The tricky part is your son. As an RM I know how hardcore and brainwashed missionaries can be. You have to realize that these guys are so indoctrinated if someone very close to them died (mother, father, siblings) they choose to stay out on the mission. The Mission Pres. encourages him to stay in the field and forget about the family and the funeral for now.

I had a comp whose Mom was not a member. In fact, she thought the church was a lying, manipulative, cult. Looking back on the situation I agree with her. She would plead for him to come home, or at least read the research about the church she would send him. He would always throw away the research and call it "anti-Mormon lies" without even examining it. He thought that Satan was using his Mom as a tool to thwart him on his mission.

You have to handle things with your mish very carefully. You don't want him to think you are all mislead by the devil and you are just a pawn in his plot to stop your son from "serving" the Lord.

I wish I had some advice, but handle this VERY carefully and patiently. Blood still shoots out of my eyes when I look back on my mission days and realize how manipulated and puppet like I was.

Subject:	Re: Welcome! So glad you found your way here.
Date:	May 25 03:09
Author:	A Musing Grace

Thank you Cheryl. It's been a wild couple of days.

I actually wanted to mention in my post that his last email stated that the "church" (Who in the heck is that anyway?!) is cutting his personal budget from $145 to $130 a month. I was livid. It's not like groceries are getting cheaper. In his first area he had to live on $130 and said, "You can't eat very nice on that." So we're sending extra money.

We send $400 a month for his mission. Not to mention thousands and thousands in tithes each year. And they want to skink him out of another $15.

And then I read about the billion plus dollar mall.

It's so crazy! How could I ever not see how insane this whole system is.

By the way, I have some really cute new undies. Not one white pair either. :-)

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 24 21:53
Author:	msnobody

Chances are that your son will be exposed to the problems with the church while on mission here in the southeast. He isn't by any chance in Alabama is he?

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 03:15
Author:	A Musing Grace

He's in North Carolina.

In his first area no members would feed them. That was when they cut his money to $130 a month and he only got three meals in the quarter.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 24 21:56
Author:	StillPissed

I think it best that you put your concerns about your son on hold for a bit. Just make sure that he's ok physically, but don't worry too much about how to deal with his missionary scenario, deprogramming, etc right now.

You are oh so very fortunate that your DH is open to finding truth. It might be well to focus on your communication with him and keep things very tight and good between you.

At the right time, hopefully the two of you can work out a plan of action to help with your missionary son...and your other kids as well.

Of course, who am I to be giving advice. Just take it for what it's worth from someone who is currently divorced from his TBM ex.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 03:33
Author:	A Musing Grace

Thank you.

I feel very fortunate to have a supportive DH. (What does that mean anyway - dear husband? :-) Sorry, I'm not up on all the ex-mo code quite yet.

But I do have new underwear. :-) Gee I'm really happy about that.

My husband came home from work and we had a family meeting this evening. We talked to each child about how they feel. It's interesting that the children who are most upset are the youngest. They are devastated. My older kids are like, "Well, bummer. But hey does this mean I can wear a tankini swimsuit and get my ears double pierced now? If we ask for nose rings is that pushing things?" (I mean, they have their priorities.:-) I think a lot of teens have a hard time accepting the church anyway, they are more cynical because of the world we live in. My 15 year old has confessed she doesn't believe a word of it, but believes they may be a higher power.

My youngest sobbed and cried all night. "Why would the prophet not be honest about the church history. Why would they not tell us the whole truth? Is prayer real? I don't know what to believe?"

It's heartbreaking but I'm glad they are going through the process of learning to think for themselves now and not find out they were duped 30 years later like I was. We say, hey, we aren't victims here. Let's just buck up and be on the path of our choosing now. But it's hard. I can see why you are still pissed. It's a big pisser!

We are heading to the Unity Church on Sunday. The kids are happy about that.

My husband isn't ready to leave quite yet. But I think it will happen pretty quickly. He is actually very balanced and has been through our whole church experience. I mean I'd hear a talk on the sabbath day and wonder if making chocolate chip cookies on Sunday was okay. I'd ask my husband and he'd say, "Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath?" So I made the damn cookies. That is probably what led us to this very place. Sabbath breaking cookie baking is one way to head down the slippery slope.(Can you believe how brainwashed a person would have to be to question making cookies on Sunday. Boy do I feel dumb!)

What is most important is that he trusts me and allows me to think for myself. That is why I am...

A Musing Grace :-) I'm always thinking and exploring.

I appreciate your advice. It's good. Sorry about your divorce.

Upwards and onwards. We're taking it slow.

Subject:	Yikes, that is a toughie...
Date:	May 24 21:58
Author:	LadyDay

But first, congrats on your new-found freedom. It's a beautiful thing, isn't it?

Now, what to do about your son. hmmm... I'm trying to think if that was me what would I do... On the one hand, you don't want to "ruin" his mission experience, and on the other hand, you don't want to enlighten him after his mission AFTER he's baptized people. Then he would feel bad about baptizing them. Hmmm... if I were you I would either go visit him and talk to him face to face, or just wait until he got home. I am sure you will make the right decision.

all the best to you and yours

Subject:	Re: Yikes, that is a toughie...
Date:	May 25 03:38
Author:	A Musing Grace

Thanks for writing.

I am tempted to go visit him face to face. But he'd probably run away because it's breaking mission rules. Got this letter on the importance of obedience from him. He said it's the only thing we can give Heavenly Father. I think he wrote the word obedience like eight times in four sentences. "Zombie for the Lord."

Didn't a RM (was it Tal?) say if the church told him to strap on a bomb on his mission he would have, on the Frontline show? I missed it but my non-member mom called me in a tizzy. I assured her there would probably be no bomb strapping in his mission.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 24 22:25
Author:	Maturin

Wow, you are in a challenging spot. I can only offer the following to consider, but it's only one way of many to look at it, I'm sure.

It seems to me that the priority here is your son's emotional stability. The distance between you is just too great to safely manage his "awakening" by sharing now your feelings and new found understanding. It may sound cowardly or illogical, but I fear for what may happen to both of you if you just go ahead and "expose" him to the truths you've discovered. He only has his companion and mission leaders to turn to for comfort and support and with any questions. As an RM myself and as the father of an RM, trust me...mission leaders will win. The craziest things seem true and obvious in the bubble of missionary life.

Consider your son's awakening as a process rather than an event. Allow that due to current circumstances you will have to wait to bring him around and it may take longer than you would like because of the delay. Eventually (I believe), just as I taught on my mission, and your son is teaching now; the truth will eventually win out.

In the meantime, help him focus on the non-gospel benefits of missionary service. Unlike some others, I don't consider my 2 years on a mission a waste of time. I admit that I may have been able to use them to more benefit, but I still gained significantly in experience and skill that led me to a very successful and fulfilling career. By discussing these things with him, you'll help him realize more growth and personal development than if you simply wait while he wastes away his 2 years.

Find out what he's learning about dealing with people...about communication...about serving others. Help him see the life-lessons possible to learn just by being paired up with another human being. Encourage him to spend his community service hours (I think all missionaries do this now) in genuine activities that make a real impact on the community and others. Also, encourage him to learn about the local culture and history. Talk about what experiences he is having that will help him be successful in his future career.

It doesn't have to be a total waste of time, but I fear if you don't exert your loving influence along these lines and wait until you are together again to share deeper feelings about the church, damage could be done to both of you.

There is probably no exactly correct way to deal with this. It's a challenge no matter what. I've just come to learn in my 50+ years to be more patient and see change as a process over time rather than an event at a moment in time. I hope this is some help at least.

Good luck on your own journey, too.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 03:55
Author:	A Musing Grace

I also agree it isn't a total waste of time. He is learning some good skills there that he can take into his future. And also, his exposure to the church in this area could also be a very important part of his process down the road.

Thanks again.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 04:18
Author:	A Musing Grace

Your words of wisdom... Oops, sorry, lets not go that direction. :-)

You really displayed a lot of wisdom in your post. I printed it and shared it with my husband. My son is all alone and won't have anyone to process his feelings with. So it does seem we will need to be very gentle and just support him for the good things he is doing there and work with things when he is home and we can heal together.

Your suggestions really resonated.

Thank you, friend.

Subject:	If you need support
Date:	May 24 22:33
Author:	Nebularry

you can find it here. Someone will have answers to your questions or, at least, a comforting word or two. Stay with us, the best is yet to come.

Best wishes,

Nebularry :-D LIFE IS GOOD!

Subject:	Re: If you need support
Date:	May 25 03:57
Author:	A Musing Grace
Mail Address:

Thank's Nebularry. I LOVE your name. And yes, It's all good.

Right on!

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 24 23:06
Author:	No Moniker

Just a few suggestions, but you know you son best.

Do not respond to the churchy parts of his letters. Write about everyday things, about the family and people he knows, current events he might find interesting, etc. Write about books you are reading, movies you're going to, etc.

Encourage him to learn about the local history and culture and to tell you about it. (Do your own research and ask questions: Gee I heard/read that......) Tell him you're proud of him for becoming a person who is respectful of the opinions of others, who looks at all points of view, etc. If he gets preachy and arrogant about the locals rejecting the mormon message, gently chastise him. Point out what he might already be realizing - that people of all faiths and non-faith are worthwhile and have valuable things to teach him.

Write about how proud you are of your other children for their grades, sports, etc - anything non-church related.

Emphasize your unconditional love - again and again and again. Emphasise how fortunate you feel for your family and how much love them all. In the end, love is your greatest tool.

Good luck and welcome.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 04:13
Author:	A Musing Grace
Mail Address:

Thanks for the welcome and advice. I have been writing letters like you suggest because I've mentally been exiting the last few months.

He's been telling us about the local culture including a couple hillbilly's fighting over a girl with cattle prods. :-) I'm not kidding. The culture is interesting.

I have had to chastise him gently when he came down hard on some alternative type of folks.

I reminded him that all of God's children need love, even red necks with dreadlocks to their knees. :-)

Yes, love is our greatest tool. Thanks for your comments and the warm welcome.

Subject:	Tell him.....
Date:	May 24 23:24
Author:	another mom
Mail Address:

it's OK to masturbate. I'm not being rude or insensitive here. I'm female and didn't go on a mission, but I have read enough here to know what the guys go through and the guilt they feel if they don't follow every single rule.

I also suggest that you go to the main page of this site and do a search on missionaries. There are some Short Topics as well as other info. This way you'll have more of an idea of what he's going through.

My best to you.

Subject:	You're in quite a pickle, so to speak...
Date:	May 24 23:35
Author:	BrerRabbit

But it's a good pickle to be in, wouldn't you say? You've learned the truth and you have a whole new future in front of you; one which you control instead of the Church.

I'm not going to give you advice because I'm just not. But I'm going to share a couple of thoughts about my own experience.

When I first learned of the fraud of Mormonism, I went through the whole gamut of emotions before I came to a peaceful calm. I suspect you might find that as well. I think that's inevitable for those of us who have been entrenched in the fraud for a long time. And perhaps your best course for now would be to just take the time to get to know your new self before you approach your son in a dramatic way. You certainly could pose to him some questions regarding things like DNA, archeology, Moon Quakers, magic rocks in magic hats... The list is endless. (When I think of the hat trick I am often reminded of Bullwinkle: "Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat. Nothin up my sleeve!").

Also, as a missionary, I felt I had a very strong testimony (don't we say 'beyond a shadow of a doubt'?). Yet I think I speak for many of us RM's who have doubts during the mission experience. Often we stick it out to the bitter end because there is so much disgrace in returning home early. And usually we suffer our doubts and unhappiness in silence. His letters may not be a complete reflection of how he is feeling. He may be writing things to you which he thinks may make you proud of him. And he may be more indoctrinated than usual. That attitude normally dissipates after the mission is over. It sounds like you have a great relationship with your kids. And I think if he knows that his life and choices are his own, and that there will be no disgrace for him in returning home early, it might get him to thinking of alternatives. There is no shame in revisiting a decision you thought was the best choice at an earlier time. I doubt I would have chosen to have come home early given the chance. But it would have been nice to have known that I had that option.

Anyway, welcome to the board. Best of luck to you and your family for a speedy recovery.

Regards,
BR

Subject:	Re: You're in quite a pickle, so to speak...
Date:	May 25 04:08
Author:	A Musing Grace

Oh no! Not the pickle! :-)

(I still can't get over the pickle parable. I think actually that was the final straw. How could I stay after that? :-)

I really appreciate your comments and wisdom as a former missionary. We are going to go very slow and carefully as to not tramatize him.

I'm going to have to actually write up how his mission call came in another thread. It was an incredibly abusive thing that happened to our family. It was the beginning of the end for me - dang, I first thought it was the pickle.

Oh, yes, It's a good place to be right now. There is a huge gamut of emotions certainly. But I've already decided I'm not going to be a victim. The church teaches co-dependency. When we don't think for ourselves and have control over our own lives we try to do it by proxy to others...the perfect mormon thing to do. Being a victim is part of that. Sure I'm angry at times, my kids are devastated. But I know everything is unfolding in absolute perfection. I have a strong spiritual base that has nothing to do with the church and have had more spiritual confirmations since leaving "mentally" in the last several months than I'd ever had in the church.

The church taught me many things that I couldn't have learned any other way... But I never heard about Moon Quakers - oh my! How did I miss that? Do tell.

Thanks again, BR.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 00:09
Author:	LOL

Hehehe.

Who says God doesn't bless the family of a missionary. Y'all just got freed from the Cult!

Now stop paying for your son's mission and let the MP worry about keeping him there. You might see him home sooner than you think.

Moreover, if the kid has problems with his kneecap it's probably from overuse due to too much walking or biking.
He needs to rest the knee and take anti-inflammatories.

Hope it's nothing worse.

Sometimes a bad knee requires surgery. Insist that your son gets good medical care. Pain in the knee is not somthing you can walk off.

Subject:	I Like this idea, stop paying for the mission, the church
Date:	May 25 00:56
Author:	Gonzo

has become sooooo money focused, it would be interesting to see how they resolve this one. Of course you would have to tell your son why as part of the process. Gonzo

Subject:	Continue Paying for Mission
Date:	May 25 01:39
Author:	Recovering Mormon

I'd continue to make the payments that you agreed as a family to make.

If you cut him off now, it will make it harder to wean him. Better to appear to support his decision and explain why his world has turned inside out when you have him home.

If you and/or your family members resign, the MP will probably tell him, so be careful. It's something that he should hear from the mouths of your family, not some self-aggrandizing, priesthood climbing old fart.

Chances are one of his siblings will say something, but still, it's YOUR story to tell, it's none of the MP's business -- if you cut off funds because of your leaving, the MP will present it to your son in the worst possible light. Remember, they're good at artificial lighting and special effects.

Subject:	But the boy has a knee problem
Date:	May 25 07:17
Author:	Hmmm

which the church evidently is not taking seriously enough.

Who in their right mind would keep paying for a mission when the church refuses to stop abusing their son ?

The Mormon church is not keeping up its part and why should the parents continue to support a Fraud.

Promises obtained under fraudulent circumstances are not binding. Stop paying!

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 03:16
Author:	Nelly Normon

Welcome! My son was also on a mission overseas when I discovered the truth about the church. I can understand the emotions you are going through. There is no right answer for what to do. Give it some time to think about it.

I decided that I would not tell him what I had discovered while he was on his mission. Looking back, this was the right decision for me and my son but it may be the wrong decision for you and your son. I just kept my emails about anything but the church. I stressed to him to enjoy learning about a new culture and language and told him what a great experience this was for him to get to live in a foreign country. I know your son is in the states so it is a different experience. My son was active for only 1 month after he got back and is now out. He does have no regrets of serving the mission and he did do a lot of growing up while he was over there.

Good luck in your journey. You will get a lot of help and support here. You are not alone

Subject:	My brother still hasn't forgiven me (2 years later) . . .
Date:	May 25 03:49
Author:	Lunt

. . . for trying to discuss other options with him while he was on his mission. I didn't even know he was mad until he got home and started telling everyone else in the family how they should avoid me because of my evil influence (he didn't say evil though, as far as I know). Of course, I'm just one of two exMos in a huge and hugely TBM family, so I don't have the influence my mother would have (if only!)

Also, I've always been a nonbeliever (at least since he was old enough to remember), so it didn't make as much an impact. Just be careful! Best of luck!

Subject:	Congratulations, you've won a one way ticket out of the CHURCH!
Date:	May 25 03:49
Author:	junkpurger

You've received great responses already... isn't this forum wonderful. Now that you're out, you will go through a series of emotional roller coaster rides and this board will help you get through that. People here made me laugh, cry, look into my own soul deeper, and gave me hope of having a better life.

I agree with some of the posts to just focus on yourself, your husband, and your other kids for now. Maybe if you wait for your DH to resolve his issues and get out soon, both of you can work together on your son when he gets home. For now, gentle coaxing to be open minded to people outside his faith and soaking in the sceneries and culture of his surroundings will help him enjoy his mission a little bit more.

We're all rooting for you.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 05:46
Author:	CTRNoMo

I would recommend letting your son know you are supportive of him. Not just him as a missionary. Let him know that he will have what he needs. You can let him know you don't think it is right for the church to be cutting back on money for food. Inform him of your concern for his health. The overuse injury now may have long term effects. And the rest of his life is as important than this two years.
Tell of your relief for him to be seen by a doctor because of the kids that have long term illness from mission related lack of health care.
Pass on to him that your love and concern transcends the mission. Infer that it is OK to come home any time.
If he is looking to come home he could understand, otherwise you are just a supportive mom.
Just some random thoughts, my $.02. My thoughts are with you and your journey.

Subject:	Re: My son is on a mission, I've just left the church...today...
Date:	May 25 08:35
Author:	just a mom

Grace...I too, discovered the full truth about the church while my son was on a mission and I was living overseas. He strictly abided all the rules, even though the one I had the hardest time with was the no phone calling. After his first mothers day, he gave us his number, Christmas came up and he started calling almost every month (we would call him, actually, and he planned and welcomed it.) He knew shortly after his return that we just didn't believe it all any more.

Long story short, four years later, he is out, all my other kids are out, and so far lightening hasn't struck us at all.

For our family, communication has always been key. Easing a missionary child into your non-belief is hard, but can be done. Good luck to you.

Subject:	Missionary son ...
Date:	May 25 09:27
Author:	Mason

I am basically in your situation, having one child that remains committed to his mission. Sometimes, I feel like a character in a disaster movie going away from the disaster while other family and friends stay put or go toward the disaster. This often creates a dilemma: It can be difficult to decide how to get the people we love going in the opposite direction. Should we encourage? Convince? Merely advise of other options and share perspectives? Remain silent? Be blunt and risk turmoil or worse? Require or coerce? For me, all of those approaches have proven useful.

The disadvantage of immediately losing all your beliefs is the seeming abyss that is created. By analogy, the Soviet Union and Iraq may have been horrible places to live with brutal governments, but the sudden loss of societal and political structure had terrible consequences for those countries. On the other hand, who wants to evolve toward freedom at the speed and with the uncertainty of a country like China?

Our children need to understand the truth for themselves and begin to directly feel the incongruities that come with life’s decisions, but stability is a huge factor in that decision. Keep that in mind for your son. I know my son will get out in time, but if he finishes a mission in the process, that will not be the worst thing in the world.

Back to the sinking ship disaster movies where everyone seems to be going the wrong way: I'm more likely to go with the person that is logical and convincing than the person yelling "fraud". In the case of most members, the latter will send them into (1) Shutdown Mode: they ignore it with the justification that it is apostate thinking; (2) Bash Mode: we'll get out our scriptures and spar with you; or (3) Testimony Mode: I bear witness to you of the truth of my current path. The truth is, most members are just not interested in changing their beliefs. As for my son and yours, we may have to accept the Buddhist idea of “When the student is ready, the teacher appears.” I still hope to be that teacher for my son, but in the end, it won’t matter what makes it click. All the best!

Subject:	My $0.02 about your son based on MY mission experience.
Date:	May 25 09:43
Author:	NoToJoe

First I'm very happy to hear you have the support of your spouse and it sounds like your other children will successfully adjust.

About your son, many missionaries (like myself) really did not want to be on the mission. 19 year old boys feel a huge obligation to go so that they don't disappoint their family. If your son knew that your stance on the TSCC has changed he will have to reevaluate why he is there and if he should stay.

I don't know your son. He may want to be on a mission.....but most don't. Most would rather be home doing normal 19 yr old things. The mission is a BIG sacrifice and I think I would be really angry if I spent two years trying to do what I though my family expected of me but then later learned that my family didn’t believe in what I was doing.

You need to tell your son what you have learned and how it has affected your thinking. You also need to tell him how your change in thinking has changed the way you view the meaning of his mission and how it has changed your expectations of him. Lay it all out.

This will no doubt be very difficult for your son but life can be a bitch sometimes. You have to play the hand you have been dealt. Once he knows where you stand he will have to think it through (or pray) and decide how he wants to react. You should support him in whatever decision he makes.

Your son will have a very hard decision to make. BUT IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE IT IS AN INFORMED DECISION.

Subject:	I agree with NoToJoe
Date:	May 25 10:01
Author:	Mason

In hindsight, I probably waited too long and was too patient to share my perspectives openly with my children. As I mentioned, our children need to "begin to directly feel the incongruities that come with life’s decisions". Stability is a key factor, but so are family support; his personality, including the personal significance to him; your geographic location (Such as what peer, social, and career pressure does he face on his return?), timing, etc. However, since telling my son about my beliefs many times (and giving him Grant Palmer's book to read), I feel much better about things. And yes, always make sure that he knows your love and support are there without conditions.

Subject:	Since he is stateside
Date:	May 25 10:13
Author:	Yse

tell him to get himself to the nearest airport and you will buy him a ticket home.

Dragging himself around on a bum knee while trying to peddle a cult is insane.

Just tell him the knee is a sign, the Lord wants him home.

Subject:	I have a son on a mission too..
Date:	May 25 10:35
Author:	MadeGuy

I found out about REAL church history just after he left. He doesn't know I no longer believe, but my wife does. It took several months to break the news. I started with the Book of Abraham. We discussed it. I found out she knew about church 'problems' for a long time. She converted as a teenager and has been TBM a long time, so it's hard for her to give it up, but it's coming. I have since aired out all the history lies I know of; I even wrote a 17 page outline containing all the facts about genuine church history. This outline is like a security blanket. If anyone asks why I no longer go to church, I can show them the outline. It is thoroughly documented. My wife was the first to read it. She was dumbfounded and made a comment like "wow, you really researched this." I'm not going to reveal the new TRUTH to our missionary while he's on his mission. But I have decided to live my life MY WAY. Knowing the truth is sooooo liberating.... The truth does set you free. I'm investigating all my beliefs now.

Subject:	Go see him.
Date:	May 25 10:43
Author:	geneticerror

If possible, go to your son and tell him in person. This will be big news to him. I know it is not permitted to visit a missionary but since you no longer allow the cult to have authority over you and since he is your son, you make the rules. Good luck.

Subject:

Go GET him! n/t

Subject:	Do it in person
Date:	May 25 11:11
Author:	FT

No letter will suffice.

You must be there in person, and I would take your husband along with you.

Subject:	If I can help
Date:	May 25 11:30
Author:	k

Everyone is different and has different circumstances so it is difficult to give advice. Obviously, as most of us here are out of the church, we would prefer that it had happened sooner rather than later to us. I was overseas on my mission and the progeny of uber BIC TBM's so it is difficult to imagine this happening to me and what my reaction would have been. It would have been nice to understand the lies and facade and thereby not continue under the extreme duress missions place on young men and women. On the other hand it would have definitely created, temporarily, a rather large hole in my life's fabric. The one thing I am fairly certain about, however, is that I would have preferred them to deliver the message in person, as it is a huge issue - considering both the fact that the COJCOLDS is such a significant part of an individual church members life (defining his social, physical, intellectual and spiritual existence), and given that he is where this is the most concentrated, the missionfield. If I had received this information from my family in a letter, or e-mail, (we were not allowed to telephone home - ever) it would have left me stunned with no support and none of the resources that would have been necessary to understand this decision.

Anyway, the help is that I live in North Carolina. I'm not sure where your son is (I am in the eastern part) but if you need a place to stay mid June to early July to visit and talk to him I can offer you a place to stay. Or if he is close and needs someone to talk to or visit, our home is open to him.

Subject:	Another Perspective
Date:	May 25 12:03
Author:	Cr@ig P@xton

As a Mega, Uber, Nazi, Thoroughly Brainwashed, TBM Missionary...I can't think of any worse news to receive from home than the news you are keeping from your son. I would have rather received news that my entire family had been raped, tortured, dismembered and eaten by a crazed mass murderer than to learn that they had left the church (Yeah I was THAT fucked up).

But here in lays your problem. Who have you shared your information with… that might write your missionary son and tell them that his mother has left the only true and living church on the face of the earth? I think its better to be proactive than reactive…If I was your son I would rather hear this news from you than from someone else.

Take your time...but I would think it would be better to break the news to him in a manner that he isn't totally blindsided by some third party

Subject:	Welcome to the board! This is what my parents did...
Date:	May 25 13:00
Author:	toto

...I was a convert and went on a mission to France/Switzerland. My parents being nevermos (Lutheran and Catholic) did not believe in my decision but received my cliche-filled letters each week. I still have them and I don't know how they were able to stomach those letters.

They still talked with me, supported me, asking what I'd seen, rather than who I baptized (well, the elders physically baptized - I'm female). They wanted to know about my companions and how I was doing with the language.

I did love being on my mission and thought I knew more than my parents because I had the spirit. I too, was injured on my mission; I was hit by a van while riding my bike. Although it required a visit to the doctor, a week's rest was all I really needed for my badly bruised body.

Having said all that... I had a realistic mission president who definitely put kids in the hospital or asked them to see a doctor if thing were physically wrong. AND, he's not legally their parent - you are - so if he pulls a strong one, tell him you'll come to the mission to take your son personally to the doctor if he won't. He's being negligent in his "calling" by refusing medical attention for your son.

If that doesn't work, call the bishop, stake president, whomever to get your son medical care. This is ridiculous that they won't do that for him! Call the regional rep, an apostle, anyone higher than the president.

That's my two-cents. I'm sorry you're going through this with your son. I'm grateful my parents never said anything or tried to sway me in any way. It made leaving the church easier when it was time to do so. And when I did leave, they never said, "I told you so!" or "Why did you ever do that?" They were pretty amazing because it took twelve years as a member before I left - including a temple marriage without my parents there which was horrible on all sides. Mostly, my family was grateful I came back to my senses and we celebrated with a bottle of wine.

Good luck with everything. Keep us informed.

Subject:	Attn: MadeGuy. A Musing Grace thanks you all for making my day brighter.
Date:	May 25 17:38
Author:	A Musing Grace

My son is in the Charlotte area. Thank you for your generous offer k. That is so kind.

Also, MadeGuy, please oh please send me the outline of church history to the above email address. My husband would really like to read it. I think it will really help him. He just needs to see it layed out as you have done. And it will help us with questions from well meaning friends and family.

And just to let you know... My wonderful husband came home from work with a letter to our son gently suggesting that we had taught him some things we thought were true etc.and that he needs to remember to separate the gospel of Christ from LDS culture and some advice on "blind" obedience not being God's way. We are overnighting the letter. Then we are going to call him and make arrangements to go to North Carolina and meet with him in person. Share where we are at with the church and then let him know he has our support no matter what he decides to do.

We have a good relationship with our boy and he knows us to be honest. I think it would really wound him to come home and find out we left and left him in the dark. If he had a few months left it would be different - but he has 17 months to go. (Today he's been out exactly seven months...lucky seven. :-) We need to be honest and just let him know what we think in a gentle, kind manner and let him decide for himself. It's the only way to really honor him and his real agency and show that we trust him to follow his own heart.

So this is pretty much the plan. We won't be able to go for a few weeks, but it's in the works and will give us time to settle into things at home first before we meet with him.

Gotta run get that letter to the post office.

Thanks again everyone. You have eased our journey.

Subject:	Hi, A Musing Grace. Closed threads.
Date:	May 25 17:44
Author:	Jenny

Don't worry about your thread closing. Admin automatically closes threads when they get to about 30-35 posts. This helps keeps things more manageable and is never a reflection on the thread itself. If posts are particularly offensive, they will delete individual posts and it that posts happens to be an original post to a thread, the other posts might be "orphaned," which is sucha sad thing.

What you can do when a thread closes is start another one with the same name and say "Continued" or something like that.

All that said, I've been reading your story this morning and am touched by what is happening with your family. Your concern for your son is very respectful, caring and sensitive. It sounds like things will eventually work out well for your family because there seems to be a large amount of love and maturity floating around. Congrats to you and your husband (and maybe even your parents, too?) for building such strong bonds.

Best to you in making your plans and moving forward from here. Might be a roller coaster sometimes, but it won't last forever. Been there, done that.

Jenny S.

Subject:	Are you paying for his mission? If so, this presents a big dilemma. Do you continue to pay for it
Date:	May 25 19:41
Author:	SusieQ#1

or do you turn it over to the Ward to pay for it? Does he come home because you won't pay for the mission?
Hmmm, just things to think about.

Of course, if you itemize, the money you give to the LDS Church for his mission is tax deductible and makes nice Tithing Refunds! ;-)

Subject:

De-converting a missionary is tough... n/t

Subject:	Re: Are you paying for his mission? If so, this presents a big dilemma. Do you continue to pay for it
Date:	May 26 00:57
Author:	A Musing Grace

He's been out seven months today. So almost a 1/3 of the way through. He saved every dime from work for over a year and had enough to pay for 1/3. So now it's mom and dad cough up the dough time.

We are planning to go talk to him in NC in June face to face.

At that point we will tell him where we are at and tell him that we support him in whatever path he decides. We are happy to support him in his mission if that is truly what he desires.

However, I personally think that when we present the information we've been chewing on he will want to come home. He trusts us, he knows us and if his dad especially shows up and says "Hey, son. This is what I've learned about REAL church history..." I think it's a done deal...if they haven't brainwashed him too much.

We love him. We want him to be happy. If finishing the mission is what will do it, so be it. We support him.

It's just that we do have to tell him where we stand with things.

The bottom line is his well being.

Subject:	Re: Are you paying for his mission? If so, this presents a big dilemma. Do you continue to pay for it
Date:	May 26 01:02
Author:	SusieQ#1

That's an excellent way to deal with all of the ramifications of these kinds of choices and decisions.
I think you have the bases covered!
Your kids are lucky to have you as parents! I commend you!

Subject:	Re: Hi, A Musing Grace. Closed threads.
Date:	May 26 01:06
Author:	A Musing Grace

Thanks for the explanation on the threads. I'm new to this.

Yes, I feel things are going to work out. My husband has been processing a lot of things and it's hard but he's coming along. He's starting to speak and think freely and it's amazing how he really feels about the church when he isn't afraid. Getting rid of fear was the beginning of the end of my church membership.

It's been a shocker to us to say the least but I've never felt better in my life...until I went to a non-temple LDS chapel wedding this evening.

It's so sad. They begin the control right at the moment of marriage. The ceremony is so short and meaningless and having it hammered in the bride and groom's face that "this is for mortality only" is such a cheap shot. No words said when rings are exchanged. I wanted to cry.

I'm so glad I'm out. I'm so glad my children will have real weddings that are expressions of who they are and what is important to them.

A wedding with no real music. No flowers. No pictures...

It's just so depressing. This was a beautiful couple getting married. Not second class citizens because they didn't go to the temple.

I had a temple wedding and our family wasn't even there. I talked to my husband about writing our own vows and exchanging them on our 22nd anniversary. I think that would be cool.

Thanks for your support and encouragement, Jenny. It's nice to know people get through it.

Part 2 The parents are flying out this evening to get their missionary son

Subject:	A Musing Grace and her A Mazing Man are flying out this evening to go talk to their missionary son...
Date:	May 26 20:02
Author:	A Musing Grace

Thank you everyone for your caring comments and concern for our family.

Thank you to those who sent information - MadeMan and Diane in particular. I shared this with my husband and he has made his decision to leave the church.

Not only that, he told our family through his tears that he can't stand to have our boy in the mission field without all the information. We'd planned to go the third week of June but it's a long weekend and we decided to go now - like in a few hours. It's costing us close to $2000 to bring him home and it's worth every single penny.

We are going to call him to say we are coming to talk to him but not go into details, so it won't shock him.

There really is no other option for us as the people we are. We have always been open and honest with our kids about everything and have never kept anything from them.

We have to share what we know and let him make his own choice. We have bought him a ticket home with us and hope he will use it.

We think he will. He's a great young man and when he finds out about the REAL history, versus what they have him teaching I know he won't stay there.

His birthday is on the 31st. We think the truth is the best gift we can give him.

I'm leaving now and will try to check in with you and let you know how it goes.

THIS RECOVERY BOARD IS LIFE CHANGING. Thank you for your time, your thoughts and prayers.

A Musing Grace

Subject:	Hey, AMG, you may not get this in time, but what if he says, "Mom, Dad, you've been deceived. I'm staying. " ?
Date:	May 26 20:05
Author:	Jenny

He's an adult. He gets to decide now, right?

Some people don't appreciate our views very much. And your son is living in the spiritual burning bosom of mormonism, surrounded by The Faithful. Anything could happen.

All that said, I wish you the best!

Subject:	My two cents with Jenny
Date:	May 26 20:23
Author:	Nebularry

Needless to say, I hope this works for you all but I'm afraid Jenny may have a point. What if your son refuses, thinks you've been deceived by Satan - or WORSE - "apostates"!! What if he adamantly insists on staying in the mission field? And even if he returns home with you, will all this be too traumatic for him?

I don't know your situation nor the character of your son so I hope it all goes well.

Best wishes,

Nebularry :-D LIFE IS GOOD!

Subject:	Re: My two cents with Jenny
Date:	May 26 22:03
Author:	A Musing Grace

Nubularry, I love your name!

We are prepared for what Jenny and you have described. We believe he will trust us and return. But that said, if he doesn't we will have done our part to share the true nature of the church with him. We will have done what our concious calls us to do.

After that it's up to him. My mother's gut feeling tells me he will look at things openly.

Gotta pack.

I'll let you know what happens.

Subject:	A Musing Grace: Will you be my mom?
Date:	May 27 15:28
Author:	Jenny

I'm 45, have a full-time career, keep myself reasonably clean and neat, and would love to have you for my mom. I love my real-life mom, but she's kind of getting up there and sort of gets on my nerves some these days with her obsessive need to control and discuss the entire family's medical issues down to the tiniest details.

I think I'd prefer you! Can't wait to hear how this all turns out. It takes 6 months to a year for everything to settle, including for your son. We'll all be watching and hoping for great things.

In the meantime, please, please, PLEASE, consider adopting me!

Love, your future daughter,

Jenny

Subject:	I think you are wonderful parents!
Date:	May 26 21:17
Author:	Laur

Talking with your son face to face is far better than endless hassles over the phone.

He may not return home with you, thus is the nature of brainwashing, unfortunately.

But at least you gave it your all.

If he insists on staying, tell him the Mormon church will have to pay for the rest of his mission.

He cannot expect you to financially support the lies you just recently became aware of.

Subject:

You are doing EXACTLY what we would do if we had a child out there. GOOD LUCK AND GOD SPEED. We hope none of our teenagers decide to go. n/t

Subject:	They DO have to let him see his parents right?
Date:	May 26 22:08
Author:	Susan I/S

With all the other restrictions on communications.....

Subject:

They 'allowed' my mom to see me, and she made it very clear that I didn't 'belong' to them, I was a free person. n/t

Subject:	Wow... this is classic de-programming
Date:	May 26 22:10
Author:	Gonzo

Where the family flys out and gets the brainwashed victim alone and de-programs them. For a good read once all the craziness has died down is Steve Hassen's book Combating Cult Mind Control. What you are now doing is described in his book. :) Gonzo

Here is the link to the book on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Combatting-Cult-Mind-Control-Best-selling/dp/0892813113/ref=ed_oe_p/103-7493329-6863001?ie=UTF8&qid=1180231756&sr=8-1

Subject:	This board is better than any reality TV show!
Date:	May 26 22:19
Author:	LOL

Nothing beats the real life drama we get here almost daily.

I so hope this missionary sees the light, poor kid.

He will have the parents pull him in one direction and the MP pulling him into the other direction.

The Escape, if there is one, will be like esaping from East Berlin.

Best of luck to this family!

Subject:	You guys are amazing and inspiring!
Date:	May 26 22:20
Author:	toto

I hope he listens and isn't too far indoctrinated. We'll be here for you when you return - whatever the outcome. Good luck!

Subject:

Re: You guys are amazing and inspiring! Indeed! This is a real clift hanger!

Subject:	Please keep us posted as each chapter unfolds...
Date:	May 27 00:33
Author:	MadeGuy

Your spontaneity is refreshing, but give your son time to think. He'll come around. The truth is always unfolding and no one can stop it. Good Luck to you.

Subject:

Wow. I'm surprised you moved so fast. BTW I think you are doing the right thing. nt

Subject:	A. Musing Grace, I think you're an A. Mazing Mom.
Date:	May 27 16:21
Author:	KimberlyAnn

You're doing the right thing. I wish your family the best of luck and hope that your missionary returns home with you.

Please return and report.

KA

Subject:	A Musing Grace and hubby! Way to go! I know just how you feel.....
Date:	May 27 16:37
Author:	Brigantia

I flew to the Greek Islands and had a very successful dialogue with my sister and BIL but it was a risky journey and I could have been thwarted in my efforts. They were doing work building up a branch there but within 24 hours their resignation letters were on the way to church HQ.

We all went to an internet cafe (they're not yet kitted out with modern stuff) and they talked with our friends on this board who gave them enormous support. The branch there is now in decline I believe with curious members asking questions of them about the true history of the church.

My family are still on the island, as they had retired there but now they're enjoying retirement the way they should, instead of slaving for the church.

I do hope your mission is successful my dear. I'm thinking about you today.

(((hugs)))

Brigantia

Subject:	I want you to know how much I admire your courage.....
Date:	May 27 16:59
Author:	wings

I hoped you would would go in person. I have been ill, and unable to post as I would like to your lovely family.

Either way, I am here for you, you are in my heart...if you if your family needs to vent, this is the place.

Big hugs...Oh, big, big hugs to the whole family.

wings

Subject:	Hopefull you don't live in Utah.....
Date:	May 26 01:04
Author:	Tahoe Girl

That would make it that much worse if he came home early. Keep us posted.

Subject:	Re: Hopefull you don't live in Utah.....
Date:	May 26 01:12
Author:	A Musing Grace

Nope. Not Utah. But it will be okay. If he comes home early he wouldn't be coming home to go to the LDS church anymore.

We're going to check out the Unity Church. No hell. No devil. People are good. We are responsible for our choices. Jesus is a great guy. So are other enlightened people. Bottom line - believe what works for you and brings you to your own highest good.

Interesting I talked to them today and the President of their board is former LDS - she joined in the late 1940s. Has been inactive for over 40 years and still has people bugging her to come to church. She said she didn't want to have to go to a court and be ex'd. I told her I'd help her get her name off. I saw somewhere how to do that.

I'll practice with her and then work my way to me. :-)

Subject:	Very impressive plan. Hope it works for you & yours.
Date:	May 26 07:03
Author:	Cheryl

Let us know how you and your kids like the new church and how they adjust to leaving mormonism. Do they often see church friends at school or other events? Are there extended family concerns, grandparents or others?

Part 3 A “Bright Eyes” the daughter at home writes while her parents are getting their son (her brother)

Subject:	Hi this is A Musing Graces' 18 year old daughter.
Date:	May 27 00:31
Author:	bright eyes [her words will be in shaded in cyan]
Mail Address:

My whole life has revolved around the church and after learning so much is such a short time with the help of my mom it all came as a shock.
For the first couple days I was in kind of a stupor, disconnected from my family and the emotions I was suppose to be feeling. Today I broke down when my parents were discussing flying out to pick up my brother. My whole life has been invested in the church. I grew up singing "I love to see the temple" completed the Young Women in Excellence program, served on the Youth Conference Committee, was a youth leader at girls camp, vice president of the Youth Dance Committee, Seminary Graduate, Laurel president, and so much more.
It just seems that there will be this great void in my life and I just don’t know how to fill it. Another concern I have is for my future. While all the other girls in my ward are planning on going to BYU, I am finishing up my training at a massage school. This is looked down upon. In my bishops interview last year he discouraged me from doing anything that would draw me away from the Lord, or lead me down the wrong path. It was my choice and the right one.
I have grown up being told that the only place to get married is in the temple to a return missionary. This is all I have considered. I have only allowed my self to have crushes on Mormon boys because there was no potential in the non Mormons, they wouldn’t go on missions or be “worthy” to take me to the temple. I just don’t know how it will all play out? How will I find someone right for me, in the church there is the singles ward, and it is easier to find someone with similar beliefs to yours. This seems to no longer be an option for me.

Subject:	Re: Hey Exmo Christian...
Date:	May 27 01:29
Author:	bright eyes

yep, time to hit the books, I think I am just gonna lay low for a bit, emotionally recover before I try examine other religions

Subject:	Oh Honey, just BREATHE right now . . . .
Date:	May 27 00:48
Author:	JackMormon'sWife

It's OK. It will all be OK. You don't need answers to every question tonight. Just slow down, take a deep breath and relax. It will all work out.

Lean on your mom. She knows exactly what you are going through because she just went through the same thing herself. You two can be each other's best friend right now until all the uncertainty stops.

There's a whole big, wide world out there waiting for you! And a girl with your intelligence and leadership ability and sensitivity will go FAR in life! Don't worry so much about that "perfect" man right now. GO . . . EXPERIENCE life and all that goes with it! DATE!!! Find out who you really like. What is YOUR soulmate like? Who is the best match for your authentic self?

You will be fine. Just breathe.

Jack's Wife

Subject:	Re: Oh Honey, just BREATHE right now . . . .
Date:	May 27 00:55
Author:	bright eyes

thank you, I love my mom tons and she has helped me through every major change in my life and will be here for me emotionally after my brother is home.

Subject:	Try not to worry too much
Date:	May 27 00:50
Author:	cat

about where you will find a social life now. Young people, even exmos, find it fairly easy to find friendships and dates in the "real world" outside of singles wards. I have three daughters, each with very different personalities and interests. Even the socially awkward one has developed friendships and a social circle.

One of the great things about NOT being a Mormon in the dating world is that you don't have to look upon every interesting guy as a potential mate. My mom once told me "Honey, ANYone can take you to dinner", meaning that you don't have to want to marry someone to go out with them :D It's fun and educational to go out, casually, with many different kinds of guys. Lots of times they end up not being relationship material, but great friends. One guy my oldest went out with a few times ended up being her best friend and even was the one who introduced her to her current boyfriend. She has been with him for 5 years now, and has no intention of marrying him, ever. He's a great boyfriend, but would make a lousy husband. She isn't anywhere near ready to marry, so it works out great for now.

Life. It's a fun, fabulous place. The best way to enjoy it is to stay loose and not worry over stuff you don't need to.

Subject:	Re: Try not to worry too much
Date:	May 27 00:53
Author:	bright eyes

thank you, it is a relief in a way to know I can just have fun, thank you for that insight

Subject:	Some ideas for expanding your social circle
Date:	May 27 01:09
Author:	cat
Mail Address:

Whatever your hobbies and interests are, explore the places that other people with similar interests go. If you are into art, go to galleries and show openings. If you are into history, join a re-enacting group. If you like music, find the places that have local live concerts.

My youngest daughter is a bit of a drama queen and she LOVES going to goth clubs as the regulars are very, very dramatic and the clothes are to die for! My oldest is very tech savvy, so she has connected with people in online computer geek forums and then goes to local get togethers. My middle daughter has Aspergers and is very uncomfortable socially, but she goes to comic conventions and loves to go to a couple of coffee shops that have "open mic night" where local singer/songwriters perform. It's all very artsy/SoHo loft :) She also offered to intern at a local newspaper and has met tons of neat people there. Me, I'm a die-hard fan of Tudor England so I joined the Society for Creative Anachronism and I go camping in full Elizabethan gear and do embroidery and have learned how to make lace.

There are lots of places to meet great people outside of church.

Subject:	Re: Some ideas for expanding your social circle
Date:	May 27 01:15
Author:	bright eyes
Mail Address:

wow you were right on, all those activities sound great, art, music, improv, all some of my hobbies
thank you, your daughters sound awesome

Subject:	Take it slowly. Investigate church history yourself...
Date:	May 27 00:52
Author:	MadeGuy
Mail Address:

and find out why your parents feel so strongly. I was totally TBM for longer than you've been alive, but after investigating history--real history, not 'authorized' history--I had to let go of it. Never substitute accepting what others say for learning someting yourself. Best Wishes.

Subject:	Re: Take it slowly. Investigate church history yourself...
Date:	May 27 00:57
Author:	bright eyes
Mail Address:

thank you, it is just the beginning of my research

Subject:	hey
Date:	May 27 00:56
Author:	Ex Useful Idiot
Mail Address:

"Another concern I have is for my future"

I felt the exact same way after I got over the initial shock. I was overwhelmed by all of the "what-ifs" and "what-should-I-dos." The church hands you a ready-made life just like the one you describe where you go to BYU and you only date the "worthy" people and you get married in the temple . . .

You are so lucky to have parents that helped you out of the church. You have a supportive family and that will help. You also have a lot of time to figure things out. It's okay (especially considering that your world-view just fell apart) at your age to just take a year or two and work or travel or something - until you know what you really want for yourself.

Right now it's really important that you be good to yourself. Everything else will come together later.

Subject:	Re: hey
Date:	May 27 01:00
Author:	bright eyes
Mail Address:

Thank you, i don't think I could do this without my parents support, if i didn't have them i would probably just keep going through the motions until i slowly died inside, thankfully I have them, and always will.

Subject:	It will all be okay sweetie, I promise.
Date:	May 27 01:06
Author:	Naomi
Mail Address:

I am really glad you posted your feelings here. It is so important to talk about this. Over the next few months this may be what you think about and talk about most. I promise everything will be fine. I have a teenager as well, and while it was a big adjustment, it has turned out just fine. You will start to see people who aren't members of the church as good people who you can be friends with and your circle of friends will grow. In the church we are taught to be so judgmental of people who are really nice, but because they aren't "members" they aren't good enough. Give lots of new people a chance. Just take it slow and realize this is a big adjustment. It is normal to cry, feel angry, sad, happy, confused, and any other emotions that come along with feeling lied to. You have your whole life ahead of you to live and enjoy, and once you make this adjustment, you will be fine. Good luck to you and know that you have people here who have been through this who care.

Subject:	Re: It will all be okay sweetie, I promise.
Date:	May 27 01:11
Author:	bright eyes
Mail Address:

thank you, I know what you mean about good people who aren't "members" I have always accepted those who have different beliefs and never tried to push mormonism on them. The girls in my ward look down on some of my friends because of their actions, the clothes they wear what they believe but I know they are good and geniune people

Subject:	Hey Bright Eyes, Look at the Bright side
Date:	May 27 01:22
Author:	NoToJoe
Mail Address:

The world had not changed. You have just become aware of reality. “Welcome to the world of the real.” (If you are a Matrix fan you just woke up on the deck of Morphius’ ship)

But here is the bright side:

1-You and your family are on the same page. Many here hide their disbelief from their families or have watched family relationships torn apart by the Mormon myth. You however have the support and love of your family. THIS IS HUGE. Don't take it for granted.

2-You discovered the truth while you are young BEFORE you invested ten of thousands of hours and dollars. If you spend much time on this board you will notice alot of bitterness. This is because many here learned of the fraud AFTER they gave years of their lives and thousands upon thousands of dollars. Count yourself lucky again in this regard.

3-You are gaining much more than you are giving up. Mormons will want little to do with you if they learn you (or your family) don't believe. Your social network will have to change but since you live outside of Utah I assume you will have plenty of opportunities to make friends. But now the whole world will open up to you. Instead of just BYU you can choose the school that YOU want. Instead of dating from a small pool of judgmental boys you can date the entire ocean. Instead of being told what to think, what to wear, how to dress and how many earrings to have....YOU CAN CHOSE AND THINK FOR YOURSELF!

Take it slow. Realize things will change. Rely on your family. And remember, you are gaining much more that you are giving up.

Subject:	Re: Hey Bright Eyes, Look at the Bright side
Date:	May 27 01:26
Author:	bright eyes
Mail Address:

yeah a bit of the matrix feeling going on, thank you for your perspective, I am so glad I do have time to figure it out, that my family is here and that i don't live in Utah, went there once and couldn't stand it, made me sick, could of been all the fast food

Subject:	Another plus!
Date:	May 27 01:39
Author:	cat
Mail Address:

There is so little scope for a female inside mormonism. They are expected to marry young, have loads of babies and always follow the direction indicated by a priesthood holder. Many women never find out who they are or what they are interested in because they are so tied to following and never stepping out on their own. They can easily become depressed from always suppressing their authentic self.

You can now find out what you really want and who you really are. You can follow your dreams with no oppression from the patriarchy.

YAY!!!

Subject:	Re: Another plus!
Date:	May 27 01:46
Author:	bright eyes
Mail Address:

Yeah, I am lucky because while all the other mormon girls my age started dating right when they turned 16 I was able to develop myself find out what I liked and not depend on some guy for feedback. My first date was a week after my 18th birthday. I had am actually in the process of breaking it off with him aka my first boyfriend, it is so hard, but it is best for me because he dosen't respect me, he dosen't even know what I am going through right now, he is mormon and in the neighboring stake, he is basically there for me physically but emotionally and in all other aspects I am on my own. Not healthy or good for me so I am out
thanks

Subject:	Re: Hey Bright Eyes, Look at the Bright side
Date:	May 27 01:42
Author:	Drunk Sailor
Mail Address:

Damn good advice. The family support in this case leaves her much better off than quite a few of us here.

Subject:	Pleasentville is another good one -
Date:	May 27 01:59
Author:	Susan I/S

Happens to be on right now. A whole new world of options is there for you but you don't have to figure any of them out right now and many will work themselves out as they come :).

Subject:	Hi Bright Eyes
Date:	May 27 02:11
Author:	SkepticToo (Dianne)

I sent your mother my resignation letter which condenses a lot of material into a few pages. You mention you are going to start reading and studying. One of the best places which comprehensively gathers together practically all of the stuff you need to know is at MormonThink.com
Good luck on your journey, and good luck reading!

Subject:	Re: Hi Bright Eyes
Date:	May 27 02:14
Author:	bright eyes

YES! She let me read it it was wonderful and helped me to bring all my thoughts together. Thank you so much

Subject:	discover your true self
Date:	May 27 02:16
Author:	annie
Mail Address:

You are on a difficult journey of self discovery - what do you really believe in, and why? You're lucky - you are getting the chance, with family support, to take a step back from everything you've been taught and to explore your religious beliefs and life goals....when you are young and haven't made major life decisions yet.... Many of us did all the standard expectations: married younger than we should have, had kids early, didn't pursue dreams, goals, education, dutifully paid tithing for years before we left the church....you have the chance to find out what you really want in life, not what some religion has been guiding you toward regardless of your true hopes and dreams. Don't abandon the good things you may have learned along the way (strong morals, the value of being honest, service to others, etc), but ditch the other stuff and try to embrace a new outlook on life instead of fearing it. Remember, its hard to get over years of brainwashing.....take it slow.

Subject:	Re: discover your true self
Date:	May 27 02:22
Author:	bright eyes
Mail Address:

I am so glad I have time to make all those choices on my own, i agree with you on the service, honesty, and morals. I am not going to let those aspects of my character that I shaped in the church slip because they are good qualities to have. thank you

Subject:	So you're 18 - far too young to be thinking about 'marriage' my love.....
Date:	May 27 04:18
Author:	Brigantia

You have a wonderful advantage, having found out the truth whilst you're still young enough to take control of the rest of your life. Although I discovered the truth at the age of 60 I consider myself newly empowered to own what is left of my life.

I have always been however, English first and mormon second, this fact having been my ultimate saviour.

The words of an English philosopher John Stuart Mill come to mind:

"Whatever crushes individuality is despotism, by whatever name it may be called"

Take your precious life wherever you wish my dear. Travel by all means but do it your own way. Own yourself at last and life will be whatever YOU make it.

Welcome to this wonderful forum - it has brought me into the light at last and life has been amazing since my own discovery.

((((hugs))))

Brigantia

Subject:	my only advice... and it's rather simple...
Date:	May 27 04:55
Author:	webz

Before worrying about dating, religions, ultimate career choices, etc, find out who you are, inside. Having a strong foundation of self will do wonders for you. Once you know who you are, your personal beliefs, and dreams, the choices you make will be far easier and better in the long term.

at 18, your biggest concern should be education. It very good that you are taking the massage therapy courses, but don't forget that education can benefit the mind, not just the job ladder. I highly recommend taking a basic psychology class, or other social class to better understand your fellow beings. This would help you tremendously with self discovery as well as future encounters with others (not to mention surviving all the wackos here on this board too - the benign and malicious ones of both atheist and Xian sects). Community colleges are generally very affordableand also a great way to create a social network of peers from many different backgrounds.

Best wishes and high hopes for a wonderful and enriched life!

Subject:	future choices
Date:	May 27 07:26
Author:	mesa verde

The one thing you have lost is the road map that was so studiously given to you from the church. It told you exactly what to do, when to do it and who to do it with. Now, you are faced with choice and no real map that you feel comfortable with. That is what feels so disquieting right now.

At 18 I was married to the RM, working on becoming pregnant. It was too young, too fast, too intense.

Don't think about male/female relationships now...think about your relationship with yourself. What do YOU want, what do YOU need, what is YOUR passion? When you know those things you can honestly engage in a romantic relationship with others.

You are just beginning your work world experience with a career you have chosen. Explore, experiment and enjoy the trip. I've changed paths a few times since beginning and found at last what I am most comfortable with and love doing. This part of the road can involve many side trips and interesting excursions.

Take it slow and remember that you are in control of your destiny and your life. No one but yourself has the right to tell you what you do. There is no ultimate authority. There are plenty of people who have gone before, trudged the roads you are just now beginning to travel; learn from them and their mistakes. Cherish the trip. Above all else, cherish youself.

Subject:	Re: future choices
Date:	May 27 11:28
Author:	bright eyes

thank you, I know that I need to start spending more time on me, developing myself

Subject:	Re: Hi this is A Musing Graces' 18 year old daughter.
Date:	May 27 10:03
Author:	Faustus

I'll preface this by saying that I'm a never-mo, so I can't speak to your experiences with Mormonism in particular. I am 24, though, so it's not that long ago that I was your age, so maybe I can offer a little input on that front.

I think when anything that has been a major part of your life comes to a close, it leaves questions of what to do next, how to fill the void, and just where it leaves you. That's been my experience whether the thing ended naturally or, as in your case, more abruptly and traumatically. So I'd say your feelings and concerns are totally natural- and a lot of the questions you're asking are questions that, in my experience, most eighteen-year-olds think about, to some extent. I'd say the fact that you're thinking about the future, where you're going next and so on indicates that you've got a good head on your shoulders.

It sounds like you've got a really supportive family and friends who aren't Mormon, which is definitely good. As I'm sure you know from your friends, us no-mos manage to find plenty of things to fill our time- if you're looking for a way to meet new people and have new experiences, just think of what you're interested in, and find a way to get involved. Join a sports team or club, volunteer somewhere, whatever you enjoy doing. Don't worry about marriage (or even dating, if you don't want to)- I personally have lots of friends who are boys, but aren't boyfriends. There's nothing at all wrong with that, and there's definitely nothing wrong with taking time to sort out who you are, enjoy being young and waiting to get married. I'm not married yet, and don't see myself being ready to be married for at least a couple more years- and outside of Mormondom, that's pretty normal. Most of my friends are unmarried, as well.

As far as BYU, from what I hear about the place, you're probably lucky to have that particular pressure removed from the table. Right now, you have what amounts to total freedom to pursue whatever you want. That can definitely be scary, especially if you're used to having a very detailed game plan, but it's also exciting and fun. You can go to whatever college you want (or massage school, or wherever), you can travel, you can take a year or two to work... it's up to you. My advice would be to savor this time, explore things that interest you, and see what happens.

If you do go to college, you'll probably meet all kinds of cool people, have loads of places to try out your interests and leadership skills, and be able to take classes where (hopefully) you're encouraged to think, debate and exchange ideas. I had some of the best times I've ever had as an undergraduate and here in graduate school. Being able to be a part of an intellectual community is a great experience, and there's always ways to meet new people with new ideas. Likewise, I'm sure you'll meet folks in massage school and/or at work that you get along with.

Anyway, there's a lot of good advice on this thread, but I just wanted to say that it sounds like you have a lot going for you, and I have little doubt that you'll do fine for yourself. I hope you have a great time exploring who you are, what you believe, and what your interests are outside the church. It's a cool thing, getting to go out into the world on your own a little and look around for yourself.

Subject:	Brighteyes...please read this...
Date:	May 27 10:31
Author:	Jezzebel

I was not much older than you when I found out about the Church's lies (I am 21 now). I, too, was very involved in the Young Women's program, received my Excellence Award and completed all the years of Seminary. I was BIC. My grandpa who helped raised me was a Stake President and a Bishop, and a very good man even if he IS convinced that he will have multiple wives in the afterlife. The majority of my family is TBM. They don't understand any of the reasons for why I've left, and they don't want to.

My mother, who is my favorite person in the world, has given up on me and turned all her hopes and attention to my little brother, determined to not lose him, too. She had a rough life and she once had great hopes for me. Now, I am a failure to her no matter what I do, no matter who I marry, no matter what job I get, no matter what schooling I receive, and no matter how good of a person I truly am - and it will always be like that. It's a pain that nobody should ever have to go through.

But you, you have your mom! Thank your lucky stars :) You have someone to help you through this. Others here have said that you should lean on your mom for support, and I 110% agree with that. She will help you.

In time, (and believe me it WILL take time) the fallacies of the Church will start to fall away from you, and you will be left with the raw center of who you really are. There, you'll find yourself facing a world with infinite possibilities. And I guarantee you, you'll forever remember the very moment where you realize that :)

These are the years where we can shape ourselves into the women we want to be. It does not seem like it now, but this is going to be one of the best things that ever happens to you. Time'll show you that.

Best of luck to you...remember to breathe :)

Subject:	if you
Date:	May 27 10:41
Author:	Teewan

get married..... at least marry someone who feels the same about mormonism...... my wife is tbm.... and its kinda hard unless im drinking to get my point of view across. lolo

Subject:

You are young! That's a blessing! I wish I discovered the truth at your age!!!!...n/t

Subject:	Stay calm, you are young
Date:	May 27 13:14
Author:	lolaboona

You've got your whole life ahead of you. And hopefully you'll have a few more years added on to your marriage expectancy. I can understand your feelings, especially since it was your family who kind of tore the rug out, and not you who discovered it. For someone your age, I would focus on building up your own social circle independent of Mormonism, having that support there is invaluable. I'm 24 and left the faith when I was 20, and having good friends to turn to helped me tremedously.

PS-I hope your name is a tribute to the band Bright Eyes, I'm a huge fan!

Subject:	Sounds like Mom saved you, just in the nick of time.
Date:	May 27 13:17
Author:	wine country girl

Now, the whole world is available to you - and choices a' plenty. Good luck to you!

Part 3 B – The brother is coming home

Subject:	my amazing brother is coming home...
Date:	May 27 16:54
Author:	bright eyes

just got the call he is packing his bags right now and going to come home, that is all I know, I guess they are at his apartment right now, she will tell you more when she gets home
thank you for all of your support

Subject:

Congrats to you all! What a wonderful story. /nt

Subject:	Re: Congrats to you all! What a wonderful story. /nt
Date:	May 27 17:02
Author:	SusieQ#1

Amazing is right! Honesty, responsibility, freedom of choice with unconditional love! That's a real family!

Subject:

This just made my day! ....my week, my month...wonderful news....thanks....nt

Subject:	Bright eyes - I am so filled with joy at this news - I'm actually crying - AND I'M BRITISH! Now that's made my day!
Date:	May 27 17:07
Author:	Brigantia

It is almost 10:00 pm here in England so I'll be retiring to my bed in a couple of hours, happy that another could well be on the way to being saved from this controlling life-destroying cult.

You are a very lucky family to have each other this way. Nothing can beat that.

My children are all out of the church and resigned. We have only one member of the family left in the cult - but haven't had a chance to talk to this relative yet. Hopefully, their love of the internet will intervene before I have an opportunity to talk with them in person.

I do hope we shall meet your brother on this forum when he's ready. Don't underestimate the power of the emotional blackmail you are likely to endure from the church. Do take care now.

(((hugs)))

Brigantia

Subject:	Re: Bright eyes - I am so filled with joy at this news - I'm actually crying - AND I'M BRITISH! Now that's made my day!
Date:	May 27 17:14
Author:	bright eyes

thank you, it is just the beginning

Subject:	Wow, wow, wow!!! The Amazing Family back together!
Date:	May 27 17:09
Author:	Jenny

I'm really moved by this. More than any other story I've experienced on this site. I can't believe your parents just jumped on that plane and went to talk to him like that.

I've asked your mom to adopt me (I'm 45, I might be older than her) and I'm really looking forward to being your sister! You all sound phenomonal.

Best,
Jenny S.

Subject:	Re: Wow, wow, wow!!! The Amazing Family back together!
Date:	May 27 17:16
Author:	bright eyes

not gonna lie here, she is a rockin' mom, and I have always wanted an older sister!
thanks

Subject:	Re: my amazing brother is coming home...
Date:	May 27 18:22
Author:	Tahoe Girl

Your family is the topic of conversation at our house! We're watching as this unfolds and are so glad that another family is out. Continue to let us know how things are going. I am interested in how things went with your brother, but I'd also like to hear how his companion is taking this, what the mission president has to say, and what kind of spin the mormon church is going to put on this.

Take care!

Subject:	I'm so happy for you all.
Date:	May 27 21:08
Author:	SkepticToo (Dianne)

Chad Swedeboy also sends his best. I'll report back to him. I'm looking forward to hearing from your mother. Best wishes!

Subject:	Beautiful! What an amazing family.
Date:	May 27 21:14
Author:	Turnip

Can't wait to hear the whole story when he gets home.

Subject:

What great news!! Can't wait to hear all the details...I'm so happy for you all!

Subject:	You have no idea how lucky you and him are
Date:	May 27 22:58
Author:	lolaboona

Without my parents support, I couldn't come home from my mission that easily and ended up living with friends out of state. My wife also had to leave her TBM family behind in "the church". Good luck to you and your brother. I hope he adjusts well and finds a supportive social network.

I mentioned this in your previous post, but if your name is a tribute to Bright Eyes, the band, ROCK ON!

Subject:	yes...
Date:	May 27 23:06
Author:	bright eyes

...it is after the band, Conor Oberherst has the most heartbreaking voice and cutting lyrics, I tried to reply to your post but the thread was closed, I didn't sleep well last night cause I want to see my brother now and his flight leaves tuesday morning, so i listend to "cassadaga" was out in 15 min.

Subject:	sorry
Date:	May 28 00:58
Author:	bright eyes

my brother is in the Charrlotte North Carolina Mission
his plane leaves tuesday morning.
I live on the west coast.

Subject:	Great News
Date:	May 28 01:26
Author:	steve allen

Glad that he was in the states. In a lot of foreign missions they take the missionary's passports so this thing can't happen.

BTW, my neice was just sent to the North Carolina mission. One year left of school when she did. From what I hear she not having a very good time. She's Korean and facing a fair amount of racism.

Subject:	late to the story
Date:	May 28 01:53
Author:	Annie

I have just seen this whole story play out as I read past posts.

I am amazed to see a person appear on the scene, leave the church, get her husband and daughter to leave, then flies off to get a son off of his mission--successfully In a matter of a few days.

This is all legit? It sounds too fantastic to believe. Fantisticlly good, but wow, this is real, right???

somebody pinch me.

Subject:	*pinch*
Date:	May 28 02:03
Author:	bright eyes

oh its real, we are strong believers in truth wherever it comes from, and when my mom found the historical evidence ect. She shared it with my family we were all stunned. My mom couldn't let my brother come home 17 months later and find out we called it quits. My four younger siblings are in shock too. They have been watching TV all day, I make them food they eat, then more TV.

Subject:	Re: my amazing brother is coming home...
Date:	May 28 04:30
Author:	mesa verde

Congratulations!!! Your parents are the best. Enjoy your brother coming back home. This has been an amazing story to watch.

Subject:

now that's what I call courage! Amazing stuff.n/t

Subject:

This is cause for turning carwheels and hollering "YIPPEEE!" n/t

Subject:	THIS IS LIKE A DREAM!!!
Date:	May 28 19:46
Author:	toto

Oh my god! I am so incredibly amazed at your family. Your parents are the best and so are you! Good luck with everything, let us know what happens when they get home!

Part 4 the Family Returns

Subject:	A Musing Grace says: Believe it or not...We are a real family and this is our real story.
Date:	May 31 01:40
Author:	A Musing Grace

Wowsa! I never thought our story would be taken for a load of bull…. I don't blame you skeptics. You believed the church for so long - now you don't want to believe anything good could happen.

No, this is not going to be a "come to Jesus" mainstream Christianity story. I called my Baptist sister in law to ask about flights (she used to work for the airport) when we were trying to avoid paying heavy prices for our spur of the moment trip to North Carolina to retrieve our son. She said, "Praise to the Lord, you're out of the cult. We've been praying for you for years. I bet your church people will think Satan has you by the short hairs."

I said, "I don't believe in Satan."

She said, "Oh my, Nannette. You know it's in the bible. You believe the bible don't you."

I said, "That is a discussion for another day."

Today I received an email from her encouraging me to remember my baptist roots and Jesus.

I also received my Nag Hammondi scriptures in the mail today. Guess which one I was more thrilled about? :-)

I live in Salem,Oregon. My teen daughter wasn't too clear on how far away we live from Seattle. She's never driven there herself.

I am willing to talk in person with anyone who wants to come and see me. My real email is listed above. I've been writing Dianne Ormand for days.

My husband and son are meeting with our SP at 8 am tomorrow morning. We are finishing the final touches on our resignation letter and it will be submitted then.

We have been going through a gradual process for years and months in coming to grips with the control of the church and how it affects us. I will be writing more about my process.

BTW, thank you for complimenting me on my smoothly polished story. I happen to be a writer.
So bully for me.:-)

But every word of it is true... No, wait. My son didn't say he thought aliens had taken over his parents. He said he thought we could have been androids. My husband corrected me when he read my post. Sorry after limited sleep for days I guess I got that part confused.

I could tell you all loads of things, and I will in future posts, that would have you shaking your heads. (If you want to believe it. But with all you skeptics...Gee, should I even take time to do it? Will you want documentation?)

My experiences in the church have been painful for many years. I've been working to develop a new spiritual base - let's call it metaphysical in nature - for a long time. I've shared this path with my children and husband, so they were learning with me.

Two weeks ago I typed "metaphysical mormon" in a yahoo search to see if I could find anyone who believes the way I do. That's what started this whole thing.

I appreciate the opportunity to come out and say I'm real. I had planned to do it after our letter was subbed tomorrow but at this point I don't care if anyone knows who I am. I am honest. I have no fear. I have nothing to hide.

I'm not offended anyone would question my story. After living in a church that feeds you butt loads of bull shit, how can I blame you?

I'm here to give you hope. You've given me hope.

email me anytime. If you want to see the funny email my sister in law sent I can forward that to you as well. If this will help restore your faith in something, even a happy ending for a family leaving the church, I'll do what I can.

Yes, we will have a huge adjustment to go through. Will it be easy? No. Will it be worth it? Yes.

None of my kids including my missionary son ever planned to go to BYU. My son had no girlfriend. My son came home willingly and read materials and it confirmed doubts he'd had all along. He took off his garments and wants his name off the records.

He's a great kid and he's going to do well. We made the right choice for our family. Will what we did work for every family? No. Should every one do what we did? No. Are we better because we did it? NO - that WOULD be BS. The kind the church feeds regularly.

We did what we did because we were inspired to do it. I believe in the Law of Attraction and live my life accordingly. I have miracles and things happen all the time in my life. It's not because I was LDS - it's because I believe in universal laws. They work for anyone who applies them.

Okay, I hope I have set it straight. For those of you still doubting - I do hope someday your ability to accept happiness when it happens in front of you will be restored.

Frankly, I was truly AMUSED by the thread questioning the truth of my story. Sorry if I sound cranky. I'm just really tired. My other daughter developed a severe bladder infection while we were gone. Have you ever seen pee that looks like cranberry juice? Well, I have. I was at the Urgent Care center and pharmacy for hours this evening getting her taken care of. (I can send the lab report copies if you like. :-)

A Musing Grace - Nannette Martin - Salem, Oregon

Subject:	Bright Eyes' Posts Always Sounded Too Much
Date:	May 31 01:45
Author:	WestBerkeleyFlats

like those from an actual teenage for me not to believe them to be genuine.

Subject:	Thousand apologies. I saw your email on a post and thought you would return and report.
Date:	May 31 01:48
Author:	SusieQ#1

Welcome! Please try to keep a sense of humor... we are such skeptics!

You told the story so well, which is to your credit, that some didn't believe it.

Hope you are feeling better soon. This has been a huge emotional and physical toll on all of you.

Do you want a blessing ? OK you can slap me now! :-)

Subject:	Re: Thousand apologies. I saw your email on a post and thought you would return and report.
Date:	May 31 01:54
Author:	A Musing Grace

Hee hee. You crack me up SusieQ#1.

Why do you think I'm A Musing Grace? :-)I DO have a sense of humor.

Yes, it's been a rough week. But I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Thanks for welcoming me for "reals" cause I am.

Subject:	From one Oregonian to another -- have you gotten your annual "web feet" checkup? :-)
Date:	May 31 02:08
Author:	SusieQ#1

I am from Portland Oregon. Was up here a couple years ago for my 50th Grade School Reunion! Ya, you have to be an Oregonian to understand that! :-)

LOVE the beach -- Cannon, Seaside, Rockaway! I'm chomping at the bit to take a trip up to see family and see what the weather has done to the beaches since last time we were there.

Subject:	your story seemed too far fetched for me
Date:	May 31 02:06
Author:	A true skeptic

I doubt the veracity of any story such as yours. I have lived too long and heard far too many fantastic stories to believe it at first blush.

I am extremely skeptical of these type of stories for a very logical reason, most of the time they are b.s., straight and simple.

So you may be offended at people like me who doubt stories like yours, but as old Joe Smith himself said, "I would not believe myself if it had not happened to me."

If it sounds too good to be true, it most likely is. People get jaded because they have been taken SO often, that to be taken on a board like this would be just too much.

There are not one in a million stories like yours that turn out to be true--so you can surely see why people would not allow themselves to be taken in.

I think a lot of good people were thinking and hoping for the best for you.

Subject:	Thank you, Nanette, for your post.
Date:	May 31 02:14
Author:	KimberlyAnn

I've followed your story and have been very inspired by it. Thanks for sharing with us. And thank you for understanding that we're a group of people who has been fooled before. It's hard to trust and hard to believe that things could go so smoothly for you when things were so difficult for so many of us when we shared our doubts with our families. But I'm glad things are going so well for your family and hope your fortune continues.

Thanks again for inspiring us! Best of luck to your family.

KA

Subject:	Re: Thank you, Nanette, for your post.
Date:	May 31 02:56
Author:	A Musing Grace

Hey KA,

I do understand why it's hard to believe. I know it's hard to trust and believe. I don't blame anyone for not being able to, or for taking their time to decide.

I had the hardest time accepting JS and when I finally made peace with it at some level then I found out I'd been totally duped. I know there is so much tied into our experiences with church and the pseudo spiritual things that happen there. But the fact is that we do have REAL spiritual things happen in the church and out of the church. We are spiritual beings and it is our birthright, I believe. I could never buy that LDS had the corner on the market. I cringe at every testimony of "the one and only true church." I've never bought it.

My husband and I had a few "lively" discussions over all this. He got tired of hearing me gripe about the church. I told him I could go discuss it somewhere else. He apologized. We have been through a lot. I will be able to share more of our journey at some point. Just tired now and rambling.

I have ultimate trust that things go according to plan in my life. I have created that intention and I accept what happens. I have no other explanation on how it could all unfold so smoothly.

I know I have spiritual guidance and it isn't dependent on what I believe, what I do, or even what I call it.

Everyone has access to this power. Read some Wayne W. Dyer. He started me on my metaphysical journey in the early 90's.

Thanks for your support.

Subject:	*Again guys, as far as I know this is legit -
Date:	May 31 02:24
Author:	Susan I/S

From the admin side of the board I have no reason to doubt. Everyone is entitled to their anonymity. We encourage it. Everyone is also entitled to their skepticism. We encourage that too.

Subject:	Re: A Musing Grace says: Believe it or not...We are a real family and this is our real story.
Date:	May 31 02:30
Author:	ruthm

Hey, you're in my neck of the woods (good old Salem, OR). :) I think I could probably hear about your family if I bothered to call my mom and ask (that is if the news has leaked out yet). :) If it's anything like when the 2nd councilor in the Keizer Stake Pres. "came out" years ago, I'm sure it'll be all over town shortly. However, I haven't talked to my parents about my feelings on the church yet, but two of my brothers resigned about 2 weeks ago (guess who got them to do it?), but they were not "active" and neither had been through the temple, so my parents weren't very upset. They'd be more shocked about me, but I can't resign because my husband thinks it's a whim and we've both been members our whole lives so he asked me to think about it for a few more YEARS!! We're not active though, so it's not like I have to pretend, and he knows how I feel and that I don't believe, etc, just doesn't want me to resign yet, and I don't want to push him, so that's fine. Anyway, didn't mean to turn this into a book, just wanted to say hello. :)

Subject:	Re: A Musing Grace says: Believe it or not...We are a real family and this is our real story.
Date:	May 31 02:46
Author:	A Musing Grace

Hi ruthm,

You're in Salem too! Cool! Yes, I heard about the 2nd councilor in the Keizer stake. My husband was Elders Quorum President at the time.

We're not in that stake so not sure if you'd hear about us or not. Maybe in time.

Keep in touch. I hope you can resign at some point.

Thanks for writing! Nice to know you're in my town.

Subject:	Re: A Musing Grace says: Believe it or not...We are a real family and this is our real story.
Date:	May 31 02:53
Author:	Hawke

The more Oregonian, the better. :) I lived in Medford for many years and later Portland. Good times!

All the very best for you and your family.

Subject:	Re: A Musing Grace says: Believe it or not...We are a real family and this is our real story.
Date:	May 31 11:53
Author:	ExmoLesbian

I lived in Keizer Stake when Bruce Stam came out. I wonder if I know you? I lived in Jan Ree ward when Nannette lived there (Hi Nannette - Glad to see you here!) I moved to Portland three years ago when I came out and left the church.

Subject:	I Don't Have Anything to Apologize For, But I Feel Bad . . .
Date:	May 31 02:38
Author:	SL Cabbie

In defense of the misguided skeptics--I suppose I could've quizzed Dianne, who's a good friend and will holler if anything isn't kosher--we have been nailed here in the past, a couple of times painfully . . .

I was just observing impartially and keeping quiet, but now I'll offer my welcome, and I trust you'll let the slight nastiness go and avail yourself of the support here . . .

Go slow and enjoy the extra time and money you've suddenly availed yourself of . . .

Subject:	Please keep us updated.
Date:	May 31 02:45
Author:	PetiteMalFleur

I am curious to know how the meeting with your SP goes.

Subject:	Hi Nannette. Congratulations. I have a few questions...
Date:	May 31 06:34
Author:	FreeMind

I wrote to you on a related thread suggesting that you be mindful that once the adrenaline etc dies down you could go through a range of other emotions. So, there could be some emotional stuff to deal with.

Anyway, now that you've publicly disclosed your identities, what plans do you have for all the fallout that's going to happen?

Have you considered the possibility that this could become a story that say the media might run with? It is, after all, a fascinating story. You could very well become a public face of em-mormonism.

I'm just throwing in my 10 cents worth just to make sure you guys have all your bases covered.

Best of luck.

Subject:	Re: A Musing Grace says: Believe it or not...We are a real family and this is our real story.
Date:	May 31 08:08
Author:	wjd

My family also had an exodus. That is why I believe it could happen. AMG sounds just like some members of my own ex-mormon family.

Subject:	I'm a believer!
Date:	May 31 08:30
Author:	msmom

As "Grace" says, THEY HAD BEEN DISCUSSING DOUBTS FOR YEARS." This is important, it's not like they just woke up one morning and said, "Oh what the hell, let's quit the church."

Drdad and I had been discussing doubts for years when I learned all the real church history (and I learned it at BYU). I used this data in the context of our doubts and he absolutely believed and supported me. We did not resign right away - I needed to finish my BYU degree (or so it seemed at the time and really, I'm glad I did).

As soon as I graduated we were completely inactive. We saw no particular need to resgign, nor did we know anything about resignation until 12 years later when we stumbled upon this board with a link to the dear departed Kathy Worhtington's excellent resgination process website and we resigned.

And the date is forever emblazoned on our minds - early in the morning we signed and dated our letters and put them in mail. Which morning was that? September 11, 2001! (So yeah all that was OUR fault!)

Subject:	After many, many years of distrust and doubting, I'm very happy to say I'm a believer, too! (Hi, Mom. : )
Date:	May 31 11:55
Author:	Jenny

I was amazed at myself for believing A Musing's posts. For so long, over 10 years now, I've been such a doubter and trust has been a difficult thing for me to give. It wasn't just the situation with the church for me; it was also the way my former marriage fell apart and turned my world inside-out and upside down. EVERYONE was at arms length.

And arms length was where I lived with the darned board, with minimal Real Life contact with other posters. It was this sort of "other world" experience that was a lot of the time more entertainment that reality.

Real life trust has been building nicely and I've developed some very important relationships post the former marital disaster. But RfM was still "out there."

Until A Musing Grace.

After all we've seen on this board with posters coming in and posing as what they are not, I was about 90/10 on my belief and was prepared to say, "Call me a sucker." But most of me believed. Funny thing, or might I say amusing thing: Part of my trust in AMG was that her posts were too well written to be a troll.

I went out on a limb and used my real life name in saying I thought they were real. Skeptical and I have e-mailed and found that we know of each other. I haven't asked him this yet, but I think we've even met. And that's cool. He's cool. He's smart, caring, responsible, and respectful of folks around here. I perfectly understood his distrust. This is just an internet bulletin board! One that gets all kinds of strange strangers coming in with the hit-and-run stories and postings and insults.

I think if AMG chooses to spend more time here, she will quickly get a sense of the balance of trust and skepticism that nearly all of us live with. We've learned to not take anyone at face value. Most of us need other people to prove themselves and, by golly, once they do, it's all good.

Wow. I could go on, but I think it's 'nuff said. It's just strange to have been a non-skeptic after all these years of standing back and doubting until all facts are bared.

A Musing Grace: e-mail me if you need a reference to a pediatric urologist in your area. I have great access to one of the best in the country. But you may have that already taken care of...keep up the good work.

Subject:	Wonderful that you are all getting out together!! : )
Date:	May 31 08:52
Author:	an anon

Congrats to you all!! :)

I don't keep up with things here very well at times so I missed this latest upheaval, but I know that like you said, we've all been lied to SO much in our lives, esp by the Mormons themselves! "Once burned ..." wait, make that "Oft burned, cautious to the point of being paranoid!" Like frogs on the stove, the Mormons hope they're turning the heat up slowly enough for the frogs to not realize that the Mormons are slowly boiling them to death!

But I digress.

All the best to all of you in your exit journeys!

Subject:	Re: Nannette Duryea Martin??? Salem, Oregon???
Date:	May 31 09:32
Author:	A Musing Grace

Yes. It's me. I have nothing to hide. This is all hitting the fan and everyone will know. I don't really care anymore. Like I said, you lose fear and that is the beginning of the end. When you lose fear, then you can begin to experience true spirituality, unclouded by the fear-based dogma of religion. You can choose what you believe, what sort of underwear you like, how many earrings you wear - modest or not. And you can choose your friends. I hope my LDS friends know that I'm not rejecting them...we just don't share the same belief system anymore.

My process has been years in the making. Same with my husband. The last few months have been a lot of intense study from different sources.

How can I move so quickly? Well, the church claims that if JS isn't a prophet the whole church is false. I found out he's not a prophet. The minute I knew that beyond shadow of doubt or fear I was ready to take it to my husband and to my children.

The church is not what it claims to be. I want no part of it anymore.

There are good people at church. There are sincere people at church. They are just sincerely mistaken. Anyone can read and study and find out for themselves...when they are ready.

Subject:	I believe you Amusing Grace because I did something similar earlier this year....
Date:	May 31 09:20
Author:	Brigantia

I have am ex-TBM sister and brother-in-law who had retired to a certain Greek island (which I will name later if they permit this).

Whilst I was in the UK becoming more and more disturbed by my own discoveries, I was aware that they were busying themselves on the church's behalf building up the second of two small branches on the island, to the detriment of their retirement plans to live quietly and peacefully after a hard-working life.

A chance comment from my sister during a telephone conversation with me changed everything for them. She asked how things were going for me at church. I told her that I don't go any more. Well - push came to shove and she insisted that I explain, so I did.

To cut a long story short, through her tears, she told me that she needed to see the evidence and asked that I visit them. Within days I was on a plane, having met with one of my friends from this board, who kindly gave me print-outs of materials he had gathered together. I also took with me Fawn Brodie's book, Simon Southerton's and Todd Crompton's, together with talks on CD from the ex-mormon conference by Bob McCue and others including of course Richard Packham. I stayed with them for two weeks and supported each other, as I was newly enlightened also.

My sister has no access to the internet as their area is not yet developed.

Within hours of my arrival their resignation letters were ready to go. The US leaders on the island were informed of their decision and the keys to the chapel were returned.

Pressure has been brought to bear on them, but only by letters from the US, which were politely answered in the appropriate manner. Latest news from them is that they are now beginning to enjoy their new life, having made great progress in their surroundings by virtue of their new free time and resources.

Had our friends on this board not offered the support they did, when we visited the local internet cafe, I'm sure their journey would have been more difficult. This is a wonderful community, and although rightly skeptical as we are trolled regularly, there are answers to anything and everything here, thanks to the amazing group intellect that frequents this place. I for one am enormously grateful for their support and I applaud everyone here for their integrity, brevity and humanity.

I am so happy for your family and know that you will carve out a wonderful future for yourselves.

Love and hugs

Briggy

Subject:	To A Musing Grace: Thank you for sharing your story.
Date:	May 31 09:40
Author:	NoToJoe
Mail Address:

I was thinking about you all weekend and wondering how your son would react and what the outcome would be. Thank you so much for sharing with the board.

Don't be offended and stop postng just because you are questioned by some posters. Trolls lurk and post here so its important that questions be asked.

Congratulations to you. Please let us know how your meeting with the SP goes.

Subject:	Would you tell your story to the media?
Date:	May 31 09:44
Author:	Spirit of Radio
Mail Address:

Too bad your story comes too late for the PBS documentary. Perhaps there's still time to fit you and your family into the Exmormon Foundation Documentary. People are interested in your story, you should be prepared for media attention and requests for interviews.

Subject:	Re: Would you tell your story to the media?
Date:	May 31 11:05
Author:	A Musing Grace

Yes, we will tell our story.

I had to confess to my husband that I revealed our identity this morning. (I feared telling him that more than telling him I'd left the church. :-) He's a private person.) BUT he said he had the impression in NC that we would tell story.

to fit you and your family into the Exmormon Foundation Documentary. People are interested in your story, you should be prepared for media attention and requests for interviews.

Subject:	I think it is wrong for anyone to be offended that we are skeptical...
Date:	May 31 09:57
Author:	Pocahontas
Mail Address:

We have clearly done some recovering from Mormonism when we become skeptics.

I must admit, like Skeptical, that it was not believable to me. Possible, yes. Likely, no.

Skeptical writes: "Then, husband, who is a high priests instructor, is told the facts and is supportive, yet wants sometime to deal with it on his own; yet decides within hours that it is all a bunch of bs". I also thought that part to be very unlikely. Either that, or A Musing Grace understated how close he was to being out.

Everyone, stop apologizing. I applaud Skeptical for his "skepticalness". It makes him a good lawyer and a bad mormon. And if we are wrong and it all happened, then great! We will say, "Wow, that was unbelievable! I would have never believed it had it not been for (some sort of evidence like a report from his mission or something.) What a great story....".

A Musing Grace, you do not owe us proof. But we don't owe anyone any obligation to believe or pretend to believe a story when our logic and critical mind tells us to do otherwise.

Subject:	I am all for skepticism
Date:	May 31 11:30
Author:	Titanic Survivor

Skepticism is a magnificent thing; I think there should be a Skeptical Thinking course in schools from about the sixth grade through HS. What ticked me off about a few of the skeptics on the exit story was that business of where do they live, who wants to go there and check it out, I'll drive, you pick me up etc. That's crossing personal boundaries and boundaries of anonymity.

As far as the references in AMG's writing to spiritual guidance and help, some people construe their experiences that way. I personally am not wired up to think like that but many people are. When I read those parts of her story I took her to be reporting on her own feelings and beliefs; she seems inclined to mysticism, that's all. Here I refer to the part about the airplane seating working out and also the son's dream having an "unmistakable" meaning. Human beings are very, very good at seeing pattern and meaning all around them, whether it is really there or not.

Subject:	Re: I think it is wrong for anyone to be offended that we are skeptical...
Date:	May 31 12:03
Author:	SusieQ#1

I am on the same page here.

I agree with Pocahontas.

A Musing Grace as spoken about loosing fear. Being skeptical means we have lost fear.

Mormonism has taught us to live by fear --- all the time.
It taught us to believe everything we were told and NEVER QUESTION... being a skeptic is the opposite of that.

We need verifiable evidence before placing our trust.

Being a skeptic is an objective position, not one based on an attachment to being right. It opens the door, with no rear, to be wrong, or incorrect.

It is probably one of the most healthy things we can do for ourselves when leaving Mormonism.

Subject:	To the Amazing family: Thanks for sharing you story.....
Date:	May 31 10:08
Author:	Tahoe Girl

Greetings from one Oregonian to another (McMinnville)!

I've been watching as it unfolds and I'm so happy for all of you. My teenage son kept asking for updates to see how things were going with all of you. So sorry about your child's bladder infection. I hope that clears up soon.

Enjoy your mormon-free life! Have you tried anything "forbidden" yet? We celebrated our exit with a little champagne but it tasted nasty to me! I've tried sips of wine since then but hate the flavor. I'll stick with chocolate!

Enjoy your first garment-free summer! Glad to hear your son went "garmentless" so quickly. You sound like a wonderful family.

Subject:	Never doubted your story...
Date:	May 31 10:10
Author:	junkpurger

because I pretty much did what you did on a smaller scale. I've had my doubts and felt guilty about them for years, but trying to convert my nevermo DH made me dug my heels deeper in the mormon fantasy world... I wanted it all to be true. When my oldest daughter announced that she didn't believe (she was 15), I listed her reasons why and summed up the courage to use the internet to prove her "wrong," or so I thought.

I found this board and I read for what I thought only took two days, but my DH said it was scary to watch me cry and burst out in anger for two weeks straight. When I pulled away from the screen, I gathered our four girls and him and announced that we're leaving the church. I wrote the letter to my bishop, and told the primary president that the girls won't be doing their part in the Primary Sacrament meeting presentation that Sunday. Never set foot in that building ever again, that was October 2001.

Long story short, it could happen people. I have the support of my husband and my kids were young, that's what made my urgent decision clear and would seem abrupt. Our home was intact and closer than ever, but it was far from smooth sailing. I went through bouts of depression and my kids got ambushed at school, love bombed, told they were in the clutches of the devil, and my request for "No Contact" was ignored completely.

So brace yourself Nannette. Like the skeptics on this board, people on the other side won't believe you also. Your friends in the "fold" will probably write you letters, try to talk to you and find out who "offended" you. But it will get better.

Sorry this got too long, what I meant to say was... thank you for taking the time to share your story with this board. Skeptics or believers aside, you have a story to tell and you told it... if this helps you with your journey out of the cult, then you've accomplished your goal and you're one step closer to healing. I believe that is why this board exists.

Good luck with you and your family... and welcome to the real world where wines taste good and Sunday worships can be done on the beach, half naked :)

Subject:	Re: Never doubted your story...
Date:	May 31 11:13
Author:	A Musing Grace

My 15 year old daughter telling me she didn't have a testimony was a pivotal point for me as well. She had the courage to say that in spite of all the pressure.

I found your story very similar to mine. Yes, the minute we were certain JS wasn't a prophet and the church was covering things up, we called our kids together.

My husband and son are meeting with the SP as I write this. Our letter of resignation is being submitted.

I know the path ahead is going to have some rough patches. But nothing can sway me. I'm used to adversity. There isn't much that can knock me for a loop. I come from the most dysfunctional background you can imagine. That is why I was attracted to the church to begin with.

I appreciate hearing your story.

Subject:

i live in salem, or too. Glad someone out there loves truth too. Best Wishes. n/t

Subject:	I'm an optimist
Date:	May 31 11:03
Author:	sbk

Thank you for sharing your wonderful story and for keeping us updated as it progressed. I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt and usually am an optimist so I was hoping beyond all hope your story was true.

I sincerely wish I had been able to go abroad and retrieve my son from his mission when it was creating so much pain in him. I didn't have spousal support in doing that. Son left morg when he got home and has been happy after he got some counseling help for the damage the 2 years caused.

I'm so happy your son will not go through that.

Subject:	I think your story is amazing.....
Date:	May 31 11:14
Author:	danboyle

most of us here weren't lucky enough to have a "full family exit". I am very glad for you. I sent your story to my wife, who still attends church, and said "this is what I want to do for fathers day" since our son is half way through his mission.. no response yet, and I am not holding my breath.
Congratulations on a great exit.....

Part 5 Stake Presidents Meeting

Subject:	Stake Presidents Meeting.... A Mazing Grace checks in
Date:	May 31 13:31
Author:	A Musing Grace

I'm checking in to let you know about the meeting my husband and son had with our stake president.

My husband took the resignation letter that our entire family signed to our SP this morning.

To say the SP was shocked would be an understatement. He had no clue this was coming. We are a good family in the ward and are loved by many. He was stunned. He tried to talk my husband out of it briefly, as my husband expected.(My husband said he would have less respect for him if he didn't at least try, and told him so.)

We respect this man. He's a good man and sincere man. He works hard to do what he thinks is right. His wife is my VT and a friend.

We assured him we were not rejecting the people of the church, just the doctrine. We want to maintain cordial interactions and want to be respected for our beliefs.

My son did not speak with him alone. I think the SP thought we were concerned for our son because of his medical condition and brought him home because of that. Surprise! It has to be so difficult for him. I hope it causes people to think, "Why would the Martin family leave the church? Why? Oh why?" I hope some ask me. I hope they are ready to hear my answers.

It went well. It was difficult for our SP. I know that there will be fall out with certain people. I know we are embarking on a new path and there will be rough spots. I thank you on the board for your encouragement and support.

I'm comfortable with my decision and feel good. Life is good.

I've received many supportive emails and am finding old friends who have left the church and people in my area. It's like a big drink of fresh water.

Subject:	Thanks for the update.....
Date:	May 31 13:39
Author:	Tahoe Girl
Mail Address:

You said the SP thought you brought your son home because of his medical condition. That is exactly what my sister and I said would happen! We discussed this and talked about how the mormon church is going to spin this to try to hide the real reason your family picked up your son. Does his companion know anything? I'd be interested to know his reaction.

Take care and keep us updated.

Subject:	Re: Thanks for the update.....
Date:	May 31 13:46
Author:	A Musing Grace

I'm not sure how it's all going to be spun. He honestly had no clue why we took our son and assumed it was about the knee. When we picked up our son, we didn't get into our reasons. The only one we spoke to about our reasons was our son - it wasn't anyone else's business really.

I don't know how it will be handled. I really don't know. I do know that the ward cares about us, the leaders do care. Hopefully, we will be respected and left to follow our new path. I'm sure we will have some interference from some along the way. That's okay. They are doing what they think is right. We are firm in our beliefs. The SP just wanted to make sure we really understood. We do and we're fine thank you very much.

Subject:	Don't Get Your Hopes Up
Date:	May 31 14:11
Author:	Recovering Mormon

When I left, my HT was my best friend in the Ward. He never even checked in on my wife and kids -- even though I personally asked him to as we were breaking up at the same time.

I held down 8 callings in the Ward at the time, no one asked me why I was leaving the Church. No one said sorry or even kiss my @ss.

I'm afraid that you might be too "hot" for even old friends to handle. I still live in the same small town, on the rare occasion that one of my old "friends" sees me it's only to find out if God's righteous judgment has fallen on me, yet.

I hope you fare better.

Subject:	I wonder
Date:	May 31 13:57
Author:	Lilac
Mail Address:

So the SP didn't squeeze a promise out of you not to talk about your findings with the other sheep? That would be great to hear if people do come to you with questions, they will want to leave also. I love reading your posts. What a wild adventure and discovery. In my opinion, you took the best route possible. Why endure another minute of something like the church when it is so completely false? You've spent enough time with it, so be done with it.

Subject:

Was your son in the charlotte NC mission?

Subject:	Re: Was your son in the charlotte NC mission?
Date:	May 31 14:11
Author:	A Musing Grace

Yes, the Charlotte NC Mission. President Hobbs is the MP. My son was in Forest City. We met him at the Forest City ward building. (His companion was Elder Dudley from Taylorsville, Utah. He's been out about a year.)

Subject:	An elder in the Charlotte mission office unwittingly helped me resign.
Date:	May 31 14:18
Author:	Stray Mutt

I hadn't been to church in decades and had no idea either what ward I supposedly lived in or who the bishop was. I knew the ward numbers in the phone book were next to useless, so I called mission HQ. The helpful missionary gave me the name and home address of the bishop. So however many souls he might have saved, he needs to subtract one.

Subject:	Grace - what about your son? What does he say about all this?
Date:	May 31 14:11
Author:	wine country girl

This can't be easy for him.

Subject:	Tonight I am celebrating on your behalf with my daughter ...
Date:	May 31 15:20
Author:	One Up

Yesterday, I told her about your post - as hard as it was [and is] to believe. She asked me to keep her informed so I called her again today and filled her in (her Internet & computer is down).

She suggested we go out to dinner tonight. It's like a celebration for you!

Subject:	Re: Tonight I am celebrating on your behalf with my daughter ...
Date:	May 31 15:44
Author:	A Musing Grace

We are celebrating too. My son turned 20 today. So he was a member exactly 20 years. Thank you for your support.

Subject:	Congratulations!
Date:	May 31 15:21
Author:	OtherSteve

I have been following your story with interest and am very pleased over the outcome. I hope things continue to go smoothly for you. And CONGRATULATIONS! I'm so happy for you and your family.

I hope we see many more stories like this one in the future. You gotta love what happens when people come out of the Mormon fog and see things clearly again.

Subject:	When your ward/stake members get the word that all of this story is on the net ...
Date:	May 31 15:36
Author:	Avalanch

...It will be nearly irresistible for them to come here at RFM and get the news. Imagine what ELSE they will find here. Look at all the hundreds of exit stories - the short topics - the additional site links!

It's like a tidal wave to newcomers, especially after the PBS blow. And they'll be asking themselves, "What's with this OUTLINE talk?"

This is how the Berlin Wall fell - remember?

Part 6 The family - after a 1 week vacation

Subject:	The return and state of Grace and family....
Date:	Jun 06 12:40
Author:	A Musing Grace

It's been just over a week since my husband joined me in my decision to leave the church and we went to speak to our son in the mission field. He'd been out 7 months and we couldn't bear to think he'd be there another 17 months without knowing the changes in our family.

Recovering from a cross country trip and back in three days with 10 hours sleep has been difficult - and food poisoning from Southern BBQ. :-(

We did have a nice time at the coast this weekend. I went with a friend to a women's retreat and my family joined me later to enjoy the beach and shops.

We submitted our resignation from the church 6 days ago. We still received calls from our home teacher, visiting teacher supervisor, primary and scout leaders, etc. in the days that followed as they had no clue what happened. And one person who probably did, called every two hours for an entire day refusing to leave a message. I think they knew what was up and were calling to bring us to our senses. These people are from Utah and the self-appointed masters of light and truth and self-proclaimed doctrinal experts and personally know many high uppity ups in the church. We just let the machine handle things.

I finally felt sorry for my VT supervisor and called her to say "I hadn't done my VT for the month." She said she'd gotten a new list but lost it and thought maybe I'd been taken off. I said, "Uh, I'm pretty sure I'm not on your list anymore." What I wanted to say was, "I've been too damn busy learning about REAL doings of the church and rescuing my family from it to do anything like visiting teaching."

So that was my only interaction with a church member until yesterday. Yesterday my good friend, my VT until I resigned and YW's president for my four girls AND the SP's wife came by to visit. I knew she would and I was fine with it. She has been part of my life for over six years. She is a good person and I knew that my leaving the church would not change the fact that she cares about me and values my friendship.

It was a good visit. I explained in general terms our decision, how it came to be, how we went to get our boy from the mission field and the experiences I had in doing that confirmed to me the absolute certainty I have on my current path. Bright Eyes came home and spoke with her as well and told her about her decision and that we, her parents hadn't forced her into it.

It was a bittersweet conversation. There are good people in the church and they are sincere. They are sincerely wrong, but I can deal with that. There are also some really misguided "pieces of work" in the church and these people have driven me up a wall for years. I can't wait to tell you about some of these experiences. Like the HP who would bear his testimony every month and try to outdo himself each month. He got to the point he bore his testimony of the Savior and KNEW he lived because when he'd done LSD (not LDS mind you) as a youth, he had a 20 foot vision of Jesus... Oh my! Anyway, I digress - but it's so fun! :-)

She said that the word from the top - ie her husband the SP to the local ward leaders was that, "The Martin family is not on the membership roster and they are not to be contacted on official church business." She said no reasons were given. The YW leadership was stunned. They love my girls, and my girls are good baby sitters to these women's children. The women were like, "We can't contact them at all???"

I reiterated to my friend that we want to have friendly non-church interactions with people who feel friendship to our family. We aren't interested in going back to church and we don't want discussions in that regard directed to us or our children. If people want to stop by to chat as my friend did, I don't have a problem with it. I am rejecting doctrines and dogma - not good people.

She is a brave woman to stop by and hear my watered down reasons for leaving. I told her I'm not out to destroy anyone's faith, it's just that I don't believe anymore. (I shared a few details - things I'd brought up before like the polyandry - which she'd never even heard about.) I think it can be harmful to jolt someone before they are prepared and that things unfold according to everyone's individual time frame.

In the end, she left understanding and respecting my position and choices. She does not agree with them, but she understands and respects me. She is a convert herself. Our SP never served a mission and they had a civil wedding. She joined years later after having kids and then they came back into full activity in the church. I think her perspective is different than most and so she is more accepting.

During the years she has VT me, she has faced many discussions with me as I explore the fringes and really pose hard topics to her. She knows how I think, my convictions and has appreciated the lessons I taught in RS over the years. (I taught three years in my current ward.)

She is sincere and she is kind. I told her that I sensed my leaving wouldn't really change our relationship. It would just be unofficial as far as the church from now on.

I assured her that each child in our family got to decide for themselves and that after learning the behavior of JS and BY and the current lies, they wanted nothing to do with the church.

IF and WHEN someone from church tries to do their celestial duty and comes calling to speak with me and tries to bring me back, they are going to get a double-barreled fully loaded blast right in their face - no not with a hose Cheryl :-) but with the absolute facts the church has hidden for years. And I will bar nothing in my expression of utter contempt for the LIES and DECEIT of the LDS faith. I almost wish someone would pull it just so I can let them have it.(Let me at em! Let me at em!) I will be respectful and not go full monty with people who are happy and content in their faith and willing to allow me to be happy and content in my lack of. But WO, WO unto them who try to push their crap on me...

It is a sad time for our family. My husband is subdued and feeling depressed. I have the same reactions. We are slowly getting through. I know anger is part of it. I do feel angry but am trying to be constructive about it. Just trying to figure out what that feels like exactly.

We were looking forward to the post-mormon meeting in Portland but it was canceled.

I have been trying to find a non-mormon scout group for my youngest boy, my kids are signed up for swimming lessons and music camps and we are planning a family vacation to the Seattle are the third week of June, to keep us busy.

Bright Eyes is graduating on Friday and it's really a bummer because the focus will be more on my son and his return and what has happened with us instead of her day. She isn't that concerned about it, but I know it's hard.

My former-missionary son is doing well. He actually is doing better than any of us. He picked right up with his friends and we are just letting him decompress and do what he needs to do to get back into life. He'll get a job and go back to college in the fall.

Anyway, this is the update for those interested.

THANK YOU to everyone who wrote their support through emails. I received many and am trying to catch up and respond personally to each of you for taking the time to offer your kindness.

I know that my experiences have been very different than most and so I understand why some of you had a hard time accepting it. I have read more and see how one person falling out of the church usually doesn't work the way my story did. Divorce is a common thread. I don't know why things have gone better for me. But it's not over yet.

My husband is very sad and keeping to himself. He spoke with his TBM brother last night. It was difficult, but his brother, while shocked and distressed accepted what my husband said and expressed he'd had many of the same doubts himself.

Anyway, thanks again for a great place to recover and decompress.

Subject:	Give it time
Date:	Jun 06 12:49
Author:	cl2

Things will get better. As time goes on, you'll feel freer and freer, and find more peace.

Subject:	Glad you're back Grace!.....
Date:	Jun 06 13:02
Author:	Tahoe Girl

Thanks for the update. Everyone is so different in their recovery. You're a smart woman so I'm sure you'll give your husband the time and space he needs to deal with all of this.

I don't live too far away (McMinnville). Maybe we can get together sometime. There are other people in the area also who would probably enjoy a get-together.

Subject:	Re: Maintaining Friendships with LDS Almost Impossible!
Date:	Jun 06 14:10
Author:	willowcreek

I hope you are able to do this with those friends closest to you, at least!

You probably live in an area larger than the little town where I live in E. Idaho. I have found that active TBMs in my area, don't have any idea how to maintain a friendship with someone who has voluntarily left the church...even after thirty year friendships!

They are good people, but I think I frighten them. I have told my old friends and acquaintances I would love to have them visit me in my home, as friends, not representatives of the church. But they can't comprehend my meaning, evidently, and stay away.

I feel I was always well liked and respected... and held many Stake and Ward positions. But, as I mentioned, I do sometimes get the feeling my former acquaintances, for some reason, are now afraid of me. Its as though they think I may know something they do not, and are afraid to find out!

Anyway, best of luck to you, Grace. I will continue to enjoy, and follow your posts. -Barb

Subject:	I know in most cases this will be like a break-up where you say, "I really love you and it's just not working for me, but we'll still be friends." And then you never really see them anymore because you don't have anything in common." n/t
Date:	Jun 06 14:20
Author:	A Musing Grace

Subject:	Thank you for posting
Date:	Jun 06 13:30
Author:	Recovering Mormon

Nanette,

So good to hear from you again.

What a season of change for your family! I am glad that Bright Eyes is understanding. In its own way, she has already had a rite of passage far greater than what the diploma represents. She has her life back - what greater graduation present can parents give their children?

Interesting about your TBM BIL, if he's had the same doubts, maybe in time the doubts will bear the same fruits. We'll keep them in our prayers.

Tom

Subject:

I wouldn't doubt it causes my BIL to think...thanks Tom. It is a gift for us all. We are all graduating in a way. n/t

Subject:	Graduation Ceremony Parallels
Date:	Jun 06 16:30
Author:	Recovering Mormon

Nannette,

This bizarre thought just went through my mind (nothing unusual there).

At graduation ceremonies, when they have the undergrads move their tassels from the left to right or whatever on their mortar boards ... holy shades of Masonic endowment!

While I was at BYU one of the GA commencement speakers in his talk actually prayed for "God's mercy on us for wearing the robes of an apostate priesthood" talk about wacked!

I say takes one to know one!

Subject:	Nobody here warned you about the depression you (& family) might feel? For shame, RfMers!
Date:	Jun 06 13:32
Author:	flattopSF

A Musing Grace and A Mazing Man, you will want to monitor yourselves and your children for things like this because depression, anger, frustration, hopelessness, etc., may surface in the future. You and your family have acted so swiftly that any emotional reaction will be delayed and when the initial euphoria of the decisive act has worn off a little is when those might start to creep in. For A Mazing Man, it might already have.

It's a normal reaction. When I left, I left like you did. I had known for some time that I would, and was waiting for a move to take place in order to facilitate the "reasons" for my absence. After the move, I literally disappeared off the Morg's radar for a few years (back in the early eighties). You have been able to resign, but back then that was not an option, and I spent twenty years evading the Emissaries of Evil (you-know-who!) whenever my TBM family chose to sic them on me.

Shortly after my exit, I sat down and literally soul-searched through every aspect of my previous Mormon life, sifted out the valuable from the useless, and tossed what I didn't need any longer. I mean that figuratively as well as physically: garments, scriptures, trinkets, patriarchal blessing, etc, all went into the shredder, trash bin or rag-bag, and I discarded all the false "morality," "rules," and rationales that had been pounded into my head since childhood. One of the by-products of that housecleaning was depression. What to do, now that I've cast aside the culture I was raised in? How to proceed in life with no one to show me the way or tell me what to do? What to believe in, since I know I can't believe THAT anymore?

Don't worry, where there is a will, there is a way. And you've only just begun to find your new way!

It's funny now — looking back more than twenty-five years: all my life until then, I had been assured that my first drink of coffee, my first sip of tea, my first cocktail and glass of wine, my first "unchaste" sexual experience, and my first puff of a certain herb, indeed even my first act of independent thought would instantly land me face-down in a running sewer. There I would be, all dissolute and damned and magically transported to the seediest block of the sleaziest Skid Row in the temporal world; and with my last drunken drug-addled wheezing gasp, my hazed eyes would gaze upward to behold a smug, sneering, shining, White and Delightsome Celestial-Kingdom-Bound Perfect Mormon Family of Twelve stepping over me on their way to church (because naturally this would all happen on an evil-filled Saturday night). Their last and tenth child would kick me in the teeth as he stepped over me, to reinforce the fact that even at the age of eight and a half, HE was better than ME. Then I would die and be cast into Outer Darkness.

Needless to say, none of that happened at all. Don't ask why Mormons would be going to church in a Skid Row neighborhood; or why they would have even considered building a chapel there in the first place; or how and why this would all take place in the twinkling of an eye: those are the kind of rational questions Mormons don't like to answer. Otherwise, that story was supposed to truly happen, "…I know it with EVERY FIBER OF MY BEAN!" But I assure you: I'm not an alcoholic, I'm not a drug addict, and I'm not a disgusting pervert: I'm as normal as everyone else in the free world. Oh, and if this is what Outer Darkness is supposed to feel like, bring it on, baby!

Anyway, congratulations on your family's escape. Best wishes and good luck in your new lives. And remember to have a sense of humor about it all!

Cheers!

flattopSF

Subject:

We were warned and I was expecting it... Sigh... it will just take time. Thanks for your humerous post. I laughed. Good endorphins help. n/t

Subject:	Re: The return and state of Grace and family....
Date:	Jun 06 14:23
Author:	wayne

If you guys want a face to face conversation with another exmo
I would be glad to meet you guys.

Eugene is not so far from Salem.

Subject:	Eugene, Oregon isn't far at all....
Date:	Jun 06 15:04
Author:	A Musing Grace

And SWEET LIFE BAKERY is in Eugene. It's worth the drive just to go there for the ORANGE CHOCOLATE ORGASM CAKE.

But it would be really sweet to meet another former mormon living the sweet life out of the morg.

We've got a lot going on in the next couple weeks. But I for one would love to make a trip to meet you. Let's plan to.

Subject:	your hubby...
Date:	Jun 06 14:40
Author:	Headofhouse

It must be hard on him being the man of the house! He has got to feel the weight of the world on his shoulders the most. He feels so responsible for his family. Men do that!

Subject:	While leaving the church is exciting and liberating, it is also a loss, and a cause for grief for many.
Date:	Jun 06 14:53
Author:	Jenny

I think many of us would understand the depression and sadness. The church and our beliefs for a lot of us was the main source of friends, support, and comfort. Now all that is gone? Yes and no. Yes, that system won't work once you've seen the truth. And the loss of the support and comfort, etc. IS real even though it was built on lies. The people did really care, if not always deeply and many aren't going to be comfortable anymore around people who've rejected their personal belief system. But the loss is still very real.

The sources of support and comfort that we found in ourselves or through the "spirit", whatever that is exactly, can come out with us. Whether we decide that our personal revelation and spiritual manifestation was our self talking to our self or whether we decide that it was a higher being opening our inner eyes to truth and comfort, we can bring that source with us wherever we go. All the hogwash about baptized mormons having the "gift" of the holy spirit and non-members having mere "manifestations" of said spirit are, *ahem* BS, to use a controversial term. Our wisdom is our wisdom, no matter what source we identify it with. No one can take it from us.

But still, the loss of beliefs, the feelings of betrayal, the church-only friends fading away, the feeling of what's next? and where will I turn in a crisis?

If this is where people are heading as they leave, I think it's okay to accept the grief. Grief is a passage through difficulty. It's normal, helpful, healthy. So, we are sad, angry, defiant, wishy-washy, tired, fragile, emotional, over-giddy, weak-willed, euphoric momentarily. It's all part of the process and it's all okay. This is not a normal time, this grieving. Grief jumps ahead and falls behind and then, when everything looks fine, it folds back in itself with an unexpected trigger and some aspect of the loss gets "re-grieved".

Several of us have identified grief with leaving the church. Some don't. But with so many in your family leaving all at once, you're going to most likely see the gamut, and what a gamut it is. All kinds of things swinging at you, some from outside and some in your hearts. Let it be. It's all okay.

Important Leaving Mormonism Lesson: Anger is okay. Anger is normal. (A lot of people resist anger because it's seen as satan's tool, but anger isn't bad. Acting out in anger and hurting people around us is when anger stops being healthy--my opinion.)

There's a lot of time ahead for all of you. Take this time to experience the range of emotions and accept them. It's precious to be at a point where you can feel and not feel guilty about it.

Best,
Jenny

Subject:

Thank you Jenny, I found great comfort in your post and words of wisdom. Ack! Did I just say words of wisdom? Sheesh! I guess I did, but they really were. Thank you, again. n/t

Subject:

As always, you are an absolute inspiration. n/t

Subject:	Congrats to your family!!!
Date:	Jun 06 16:31
Author:	Tabitha

I got caught up on your story while you were out of town. All I have to say is WOW!!! You are one amazing mama! I have family in southern Oregon. My little brother turns 19 this summer. If I can get up there to go visit them before he goes I'd love to get your son and my little bro together, plus I'd like to meet your Amazing family myself! Do you have any girlfriends you can go out wine tasting with? That was my big stress-relief initially coming out of Mormonism last August. I am in Utah and married to a believer so it's been a long hard road, but oh, how getting tipsy on wine with the girlfriends has definitely made it sweeter! Just a thought. As for your husband, I know my husband went through a bout of lethargic depression last fall when it really hit him hard that he had lost is "eternal family". My name has not been removed yet, but he knows I'm not going back. In anycase, I used to send him out golfing when we could afford it with some of his buddies, mainly never-mo. Initially it was hard getting him out the door but he always came home refreshed and happy. Summer time in OR must be a wonderful time of year for outdoor activities. So perhaps encouraging your hubby to take up golf or mountain biking or something like that would help. You could get him a copy of "Conversations with God" (written by an author in Ashland, I believe) or maybe kidnap him one weekend for the Shakespeare festival and revel in those marvelous and inspiring words or see a comedy. And of course lots of sexy underwear never hurts either! LOL Best of luck to you and yours!

Subject:	It is wonderful to hear from you again A Mazing Grace (sp intentional)....
Date:	Jun 06 16:42
Author:	Brigantia

Your bravery and commitment to truth have brought you thus far. You will need to hang in there a little while, as you are grieving in a way, a natural process which is healthy and cathartic for you all. The process manifests itself differently with each person affected.

I had to deal with grief for the loss of my hubby at about the same time as I discovered the truth about mormonism, which brought me to a bad place from which I am happily now free. If I could will some extra strength over to you then consider it done - you are an amazing family and will get through.

Take your time, let it flow and watch life transform into the best you could have.

I send you all my love and all my wishes for a wonderful future for all of you, filled with joy and hope.

((((hugs)))

Briggy

Subject:

So glad you're back. I've had you on my mind, wondering how getting your son went. I'll read all your posts now. nt

Subject:	Re: So glad you're back. I've had you on my mind, wondering how getting your son went. I'll read all your posts now. n/t ME TOO..!!!
Date:	Jun 06 19:36
Author:	SusieQ#1

Thanks for the update.
Like flattopSF, I went through my whole life before I was a Mormon and while I was a Mormon -- bit by bit putting it in perspective, figuring what I learned, what I wanted to keep as part of me, what wanted to discard while creating a new world view.
It took me about four years of study, and classes, and just pure freedom to reschedule my time, and energy to feel totally comfortable with the new "me" !

We all deal with that exit process differently.
Sounds like you are keeping your eyes and ears open with the family! That's excellent.

I hear a sense of humor in your posts, which is great!
That is the only way to deal with some of what I call: "Gross Stupiditis" perpetrated on the members usually by the leaders with their halos askew!

We're here for ya!

Subject:	hey there AMG :)
Date:	Jun 06 20:43
Author:	Kate

Hello :)

I have read your story with interest & just wanted to say Congratulations for having taken such a courageous move.

Our family of 7 left in one swift move also a few years ago & it has been a wonderful journey for all of us as we rediscover life. There have been ups and downs of course, and my husband also had periods of feeling sadness & loss. It can be heartbreaking to see the consequences of such a major upheaval, but with time comes healing & life takes on more meaning & joy.

If your husband is open to it, counselling can be a fabulous thing to help both him personally & your marriage. Removing the church from your lives can change the dynamics of how a family operates & counselling can be helpful for moving beyond the church mindset. You don't need to be having troubles as a couple to find it helpful :)

I wish you all love & happiness as you reclaim these precious years with your family. The future is bright!!

Good Luck,
Kate x

Subject:	Grace . . . .
Date:	Jun 06 20:49
Author:	JackMormon'sWife

Welcome back. Please encourage your daughter, "Bright Eyes," to post some more. We helped talk her through your trip to retrieve your missionary son. She got somewhat overwhelmed with the little ones. I have an oldest daughter almost the same age as Bright Eyes, and she would get *really* stressed and overwhelmed if she had to hold it all together for the family while mom and dad left for a few days during a family crisis. We are here for both of you as you decompress from all of the excitement.

Anyway, she's an INCREDIBLE daughter!!! You are a very lucky mom.

The best to the whole "AMAZING" family,
Jack's Wife
;o)

We have been in contact with this family and the story is true. Thanks Amusing Grace and family!!

Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org

Listing of additional short Topics | Main Page

Updated June 2007

Part 1

My son is on a mission, I’ve just left the church…today

The family - after a 1 week vacation

Part 3 B – The brother is coming home

Part 4 the Family Returns

Part 5 Stake Presidents Meeting

Part 6 The family - after a 1 week vacation