| Subject: | Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05, 2007 |
| Author: | Christy219 |
| I'm fairly new here. I've read a lot of posts and have
taken a lot in. This is my first time posting here. A little background: I
was born into a mormon family in Southern Idaho. I never had any doubts
about the Church until my first time at the temple. It all went downhill
from there. I know my situation is not unique, so I won't go into detail.
I'm fairly new in the recovery process. I've been in shock and I've been angry. I've been disgusted. I am now finding myself falling into a lull. It kind of scares me because now that I've lost my indignation, I keep having these little nagging thoughts in the back of my mind trying to explain away my newfound independence from the church. I know the brainwashing goes very deep, and I know some people must never break from it entirely. I fear I may be one of those people. I've just started telling a few close friends of my choice. I'm not in Idaho anymore, which is good, because I don't have to face the wrath of a mormon community. But the mormon friends I have shared this with have taken it in stride. However, one of them tried very earnestly to explain my fears away. He asked me what was wrong, and I told him a few of the things that bothered me. I told him that I didn't believe that JS was a prophet, therefore, I couldn't believe any of it. He went into a speech about how JS was human, that he was flawed, that although he was the Prophet, he made mistakes, just as we all do...on and on and on. I found myself feeling confused, doubting my newfound freedom. It scared me. I've since stopped telling people of my choice because I don't want anyone to try to persuade me to go back to church. I'm still very weak and susceptible to the brainwashing. How do I stay strong? How do I find my defenses when someone starts in on the whole "JS was flawed" speech? It's hard when it comes from someone I respect and admire and someone that I know is very knowledgeable about the church and its history. I truly don't understand how people who know about JS's history take it all in stride and stay in the church. How do they do that? WHY? They are the ones that I'm having a hard time with. They are targeting me and trying to talk me out of leaving. How do I stay strong and trust my decision!? Help... |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:06 |
| Author: | MJ |
| RE: "How do I find my defenses when someone starts in
on the whole "JS was flawed" speech?" If JS is a flawed human with all the flaws of a human, he is capable of telling lies about anything, including revelations, gold plates, etc.. the flawed JS defense should actually be a starting point for losing ones testimony. |
| Subject: | welcome |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:09 |
| Author: | bookworm |
| I'm pretty new to this whole process as well. I've
just told a few TBM friends. But I don't tell them much. i simply say that I
have issues with church history and would rather keep it private. You can't
debate TBMs. They usually revert back to bearing their testimony and talking
about "feelings" they have about church. There are a few friends/family I am really concerned about breaking the news to. Some people feel like they need to "save" you and won't respect your decision. I wish you the best of luck! |
| Subject: | Here's one that always works for me ... |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:16 |
| Author: | Timothy |
| If Joseph Smith was so flawed, then why did God pick
him? ... I mean a severely flawed, uneducated, fourteen-year-old farm boy
with no prospects other than a money digging service is the best God could
find? ... What, were all the not-so-flawed folks too busy at the time? Just a thought. Oh, and welcome. I think most would enjoy it if you did go into the details. Might help relieve some of what you're experiencing as well. Timothy |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:11 |
| Author: | Liberated |
| I would start reading some skeptical stuff from
scientists. Try some of the stuff at scienceblogs.com. Once you understand
there is no God, you should lose most of your desire to be a part of any
religion. But that's just what worked for me. |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:13 |
| Author: | No Moniker |
| I don't know how the "JS was flawed" argument helps
him retain his title of Prophet? So what, all people are flawed and none of
them are prophets either. Since when is it acceptable for the leader of a church (any church, but especially the ONE TRUE church) to: Seduce other men's wives Proposition teenagers Cheat on your wife Start an illegal bank and defraud your followers Bad behavior is bad behavior. It takes time to recover your balance. Just give yourself time. The longer you are out, the clearer it becomes. |
| Subject: | Credibility |
| Date: | Nov 05 19:50 |
| Author: | Taddlywog |
| After they say that Joseph Smith is flawed then they move on to pointing out other biblical prophets who were also flawed. Like that makes it ok? Oh yeah because we can all be forgiven through the resurrection. So this is suppose to make it ok for me to stuff my self back into their little box and live the way they say I should? No way. GOD can do better than that if he really wants me to behave like a molly mormon then he can tell me himself instead of choosing someone with no credibility. |
| Subject: | A couple of things to keep in mind |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:24 |
| Author: | Blank |
| First, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone
else. You can tell them you no longer believe but no need to go into the
reasons. It's none of their business in any event. Even if you were
emotionally and mentally prepared it would be pointless because you are most
likely not going to convince anyone that you are right. They only ask the
reasons so they can try to break you down. Second, perhaps you feel scared because you no longer "know" the truth. Mormons brainwash themselves into thinking they know something others dont but the truth is they don't. They have difficulty distinguishing between fact and faith. It's ok to believe in something without knowing just keep in mind that doubt is OK too and to be expected at times. It's ok to ask questions and its ok not to have all of the answers. |
| Subject: | Don't miss such a beautiful opportunity again. |
| Date: | Nov 05 17:00 |
| Author: | Mad Viking |
| Whenever, a Joseph Smith defender pulls out the ol' "he made mistakes" routine, I ask, "What mistakes did Joseph make?" This forces them to be very specific about what they are saying. In most cases, they have not really thought about, know about, or even consider any of Joe's behaviors/ actions as mistakes. Even if they do list some mistakes, they will name something very benign, like "He kicked a dog once," or something ridiculous like that. You can then give them examples of the mistakes that bother you. |
| Subject: | He's right. JS really only had one flaw... |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:30 |
| Author: | brian-the-christ |
| ...he was a liar. Lack of the plates is proof of the con. Joe understood it was a problem and so he got people to use their "spiritual eyes" to attest to a story about plates. The problem is simple: show us the plates and it's not a con. All the other missing evidence just confirms it's a con. |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:37 |
| Author: | austin |
| what did it for me was when i found out that Joseph Smith (hereafter JS) married multiple women, many of whom already had husbands and children! you can find that info on familysearch.org and www.wivesofjosephsmith.org. i didn't find out there were more than Emma til i was 19 and i'd been a mormon my whole life! i cried and cried and knew that any Being that i want to align myself with would not allow cheating on spouses and breaking up families. then i found out that census records of the time show an excess of men, not a dearth of husbands as i had been taught. |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:45 |
| Author: | Peter Priesthood |
| austin wrote: > then i found out that census records of the time show an excess of men, not a dearth of husbands as i had been taught. On the contrary wayward brother. Though the census records may seem to indicate there were more men than women at the time, in Nauvoo itself there were more women, because all the men (like the apostle Orson Hyde) had been sent off on missions by Brother Joseph. Brother Hyde was gone for years, what was Mrs. Hyde supposed to do? It was only right for the Lord to command Joseph to command Sister Hyde to marry him when Brother Hyde was gone on church duty. Of course Brother Hyde had to be rebaptized after slandering the Prophet and almost committing suicide, but that was only due to his lack of faith. Obviously. |
| Subject: | How do you stay strong? |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:57 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| This is part of my process. I used an old Mormon teaching: make the decision once! One. guard your privacy. Stop discussing your discovery with the Mormons. They believe it by faith - their testimony/spiritual witness over rides everything and anything else. It is impervious to facts and evidences. They don't know what to do with information they never heard of. They assume it's a lie. You won't get answers from people who are not informed Secondly, reinforce your position by expanding your world view. Get informed! This is my partial book list Mormon info here: Reading list LDS Church history from their own authors. Excellent REFERENCE books: All found in the REFERENCE Section of the LDS Church libraries: Ward/Stake houses, Institute of Religion: [own some of these in our private library] This is documented, reliable original material. Can't beat their own words! "History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" 7 Vol's by Joseph Smith Jr "A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" 6 Vol's by B H Roberts "Readings in L.D.S. Church History from Original Manuscripts" 3 Vol's by William E. Berrett & Alma P Burton "Journal of Discourses" 26 vol's Others from my library: Each one sheds light on some area of Mormonism and it's beginnings, and how it was lived initially. "An American Prophets Record: The Diaries And Journals Of Joseph Smith" Editor: Faulring, Scott H.; Author: Smith, Joseph "In Sacred Loneliness The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" by Todd Compton "The First Mormon" by Donna Hill "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" by D Michael Quinn "Joseph Smith Begins His Work" Vol 1, 2 by Wilford C Wood Contains the original: The Book of Mormon,The Book of Commandments, The Doctrine and Covenants, The Lectures on Faith , the Fourteen Articles of Faith "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brady "Mormon Enigma Emma Hale Smith" by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery "Inside the Mind of Joseph Smith Psychobiography and The Book of Mormon" by Robert D Anderson "Insider's View of Mormon Origins" By Grant H Palmer . ...by his own hand upon papyrus Charles M Larson This is one of several on the Hofmann Affair "The Mormon Murders" by Steven Naifeh and Gregory White Smith One of several on the Mt. Meadows Massacre "American Massacre The tragedy at Mountain Meadows Sept 1857" by Sally Denton "What the Mormon Missionaries Don't Tell You The Rest of the Story": by Gerald Paul Other books I like -- have nothing to do with Mormonism... The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell "Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine "The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer Loads of web links too: http://geocities.com/packham33/index.htm www.lds-mormon.com http://i4m.com/think/ http://www.mormoninformation.com/ |
| Subject: | Christy!!! You May Respect & Admire Them But I Guarantee You That They ARE NOT very... |
| Date: | Nov 05 15:41 |
| Author: | BeenThereDunnThatExMo |
| knowledgeable about the Church and its history. Don't
let them intimidate you in any way, shape or form. YOU at this point more
than likely know much more about REAL church history than they do. Ask them to provide sources for what they claim to know and believe and you will see them start to wither in front of your eyes like the wicked witch in Wizard of Oz. Ask your LDS friends and family basic and simple pointed questions like: 1) How old were they when they first found out that JS used a hat and a rock to translate the BOM unlike the picture of him sitting by the candlelight looking at faux gold-plates that we were taught in Sunday school. 2) How old were they when they found out that NOBODY ever really SAW the gold plates UNLIKE what we were all taught in Sunday school? 3) How old were they when they found out that JS ONLY saw Jesus in his purported so-called "first vision" experience according to his own extant journal entries? 4) How old were they when they found out about the "kinderhook plates", and the "Greek Psalter" that JS attempted to "translate"? 5) How old were they when they found out about the Book of Abraham papyrus that was discovered that made the BOA an absolute fabrication by JS? 6) How old were they when they found out that JS had numerous wives and married other already married women and why we were never told that as we were growing up in the church? 7) How old were they when...etc...etc...etc...and see what kind of responses you get from them. Their responses will speak volumes and tell you just exactly HOW MUCH they think they really know versus just regurgitating the corporate group-think LDS pabulum we were all force-fed as kids and I guarantee you it won't be as much as you or they think! Welcome aboard girlfriend...you've just taken back your one and only life for the most important person in your life and world...YOU! Also a book I might suggest to you is, "Under The Banner Of Heaven," by Jon Krakauer. I guarantee you that you will learn more about Mormonism by reading just this one book than all you've learned up to this point in your life about this so-called "church". All I'd ask is that you remember just one thing...please don't ask me how I really feel about the lying geriatric losers of LDS Inc... |
| Subject: | Knowledge is Key |
| Date: | Nov 05 16:04 |
| Author: | Ateo |
| I know exactly how you feel because I was in your
exact position not very long long ago. Despite knowing that the Church
wasn't true, there was a period where deep down, I still WANTED it to be
true. Perhaps I NEEDED it to be true due to the psychological dependence I
had on it, in the same way any addict needs their fix. The only way for me to personally rid myself of my lingering hopes was to find out the truth once and for all. I began to seriously research the Book of Mormon and Church history. What I discovered forever banished any hope LDS inc had of recovering me. I highly suggest reading "Studies of the Book of Mormon" by Quorum of the Seventy -"Defender of the Faith" -Church Historian -B.H. Roberts. I've almost finished reading "No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brodie, which is a remarkably unbiased biography of the life of Joseph Smith. I had been told prior to reading it that it was nothing but pure lies and anti-mormon slander and there was no point in reading it. I now see why I was told that. Consequently, this book also comes highly recommended. Combined with the Book of Abraham fiasco, you'll have a much better knowledge of the church and its origins than any TBM Mormon. Also check out www.bookofzelph.com it's a new testament of the Book of Mormon! (Book of Mormon parody but its darn funny) |
| Subject: | Truth doesn't need a defense. |
| Date: | Nov 05 16:53 |
| Author: | brefots |
| It's odd that mormons when they defend mormonism
almost always give more reasons to doubt them. The question here was that
you didn't think of JS as trustworthy, and the "defence" was that he was a
mere mortal that sometimes lied, mispercieved and made mistakes. OK, how is
that going to make you trust JS further? Either he was divinely inspired and
couldn't lead you astray, and then the "defence" for this thesis is that he
was but a flawed human that in fact did lead people astray. I've seen this
type of weird mormon reasoning so many times and after awhile you really
start to see the pattern in it. How do you stay in trust of your decision? Well, you remind yourself of what specific reasons you had to make the decision in the first place and check if that still holds true. You remind yourself of the things of which you are certain. Wether it's how utterly ridicolous and impossible the barges of ether are or some doctrine or whatever you go back to the things which are clear to your mind. And you try to learn as much as you can about the things which bother's you. Doubt is a signal that means only one thing: "I need to learn more" |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 17:08 |
| Author: | Christy219 |
| Thanks to all of you who have shared with me (and
those of you who are yet to share with me). I know many or most of you have
experienced a similar exit process. I was one of those kids whose mom stood beside her at the front of the congregation when she was 5 years old and whispered in her ear: "I'd like to bear my testimony. I know this church is true. I know JS is a true prophet...." I was one of those kids who grew up with the church a major theme in every day life. I went to mutual, did my personal progress, did temple baptisms, went to seminary every day for 4 years, paid my tithing on babysitting money, played church sports, even though I hated it... I was one of those kids who had parents who were rock solid members, regular temple goers, held family home evenings; complete with a song, games, lesson, and treat. 95% of my friends were mormons. It never occurred to me to question my faith. That question never reared its beautiful head until I broke away from Mormon dominated Southern Idaho. Although I found it sickening, I am grateful for the temple because it was probably the only thing that could have shocked me out of my quiet, unquestioning, Mormon life. Thank goodness I hated it so thoroughly. Thank goodness that 4 years later, those feelings of loathing remained strong. I still vividly remember sitting in the temple cafeteria after my first time through, shocked to my very core and wondering how on earth that could be the case. I had prayed, I had a testimony. I just knew that the spirit was going to bear a strong witness to me that day. I'd waited my whole life for it. Instead I felt ridiculed. I felt angry. I felt embarrassed. I felt betrayed. I waited a long time to act on that. My liberation feels good. Except... While my brain is free my body isn't fully liberated. I keep wondering if I've made a bad choice. I keep questioning myself. I do okay as long as I don't have to talk to members or see them. I know they are in shock. People like me don't up and leave the church. There was no gradual end for me. I just stopped cold turkey. Asked to be released from my teaching calling and quit. But now... What do I believe? What happens when we die? I thought I knew. I'm scared because I don't know anything anymore. I know I never did....but.... Thank you all for listening. |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 17:27 |
| Author: | Randy J. |
| >But now... >What do I believe? >What happens when we die? >I thought I knew. >I'm scared because I don't know anything anymore. Sorry, but nobody else knows any answers to those question either. After you've abandoned a religious belief system, those are questions you'll have to answer for yourself, in your own time and your own way. Somebody once made a very wise statement on that subject (paraphrased): "Listen to people who say they are searching for the truth, but beware of those who say they have found it." The best way to approach those questions is to find the answers that work best for you. |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 17:37 |
| Author: | mj |
| > I thought I knew. > I'm scared because I don't know anything anymore. Then, although it may not seem like it now, you are at a wonderful place. You are at the start of a journey of discovery. If you keep open to new ideas and experiences, you will not only discover a whole new fascinating world of new ideas and new experiences, but you will discover a whole new you full of new hopes and new dreams. You have stepped off into the unknown. Yes, it is frightening, with danger and challenges, but the rewards are greater than you ever imagined. |
| Subject: | Christy, Joseph Smith was far more than just "flawed" or "imperfect"..... |
| Date: | Nov 05 17:20 |
| Author: | Randy J. |
| If you will study his life and actions from the works
of secular scholars, you will come to realize that *every single one* of his
claims and teachings was made up out of whole cloth or was stolen from
others. I suggest that you first read Fawn Brodie's book "No Man Knows My
History." Brodie did a great job of analyzing Smith's claims, his
"revelations," etc., and explaining how he concocted them to advance himself
personally. For instance, his "revelation on celestial marriage" was merely a means for him to have sex with lots of different women. And then there was D&C 124, where "the Lord" commands church members to invest in Joseph Smith's hotel project, the "Nauvoo House." Like, why does God need to be involved in raising money to build a hotel? For your entire life, you've been taught the "faith-promoting" version of Joseph Smith's life given to you by the church. The best way to "de-program" yourself is to study Joseph Smith's life and actions with a skeptical/analytical viewpoint. The more you study, you'll come to realize that not a single claim about the church's origins is true: There was no "first vision," no angel Moroni, no golden plates, No "Nephites" or "Lamanites," no priesthood restoration, etc. *All* of those claims have been debunked by historical research. |
| Subject: | Re: Christy, Joseph Smith was far more than just "flawed" or "imperfect"..... |
| Date: | Nov 05 17:34 |
| Author: | Christy219 |
| You know what really sunk in for me? The Book of Abraham translation. In my opinion, that one is lock, stock, and barrel. There's no way around the truth of that one. And for me, that's all I needed to be sure of. If he lied about something so ENORMOUS, then all of it is a lie. Even if I didn't have the overwhelming amount of stuff to look at, that one thing alone would be all I need. That's why I know my decision is right... It's just tough when you've spent your entire life in...well...a cult....to make a clean break. |
| Subject: | What is it that makes Smith a prophet? |
| Date: | Nov 05 18:45 |
| Author: | 3X |
| * Because he said he is? * Because his cronies said he was? * Because the whole mormon industrial enterprise has a wealth of rationalizations that _prove_ he was? Well, the same process can be applied to David Koresh: plenty of his followers _knew_ he was a prophet also. Smith & Koresh - cut from the same cloth, with followers having similar traits: a need to be led, a propensity to be duped, an overwhelming desire to connect with Anglo-Saxon "Cloud Father", etc. Welcome to your new life, Christy ... |
| Subject: | BoA means nothing to some |
| Date: | Nov 05 19:06 |
| Author: | Ateo |
| Christy219 wrote: > You know what really sunk in for me? > > The Book of Abraham translation. In my opinion, that one is lock, stock, and barrel. There's no way around the truth of that one. And for me, that's all I needed to be sure of. If he lied about something so ENORMOUS, then all of it is a lie. Actually the fact that this helped you escape Mormonism shows a tremendous amount of independent thought on your part. I actually had a TBM friend admit to me that even if the BoA was a fraud, that didn't mean that its translator or any of his other translations were frauds. The BoM, he assured me, was the keystone and the BoA was just filler. Leaving Mormonism is like having your whole world shattered. Your whole life you have been told how to act, what to do, and what to believe, and what your morals are. It's up to you now to learn what the answers are now. It's scary at first, but it's worth it. |
| Subject: | The most empowering part of leaving for me... |
| Date: | Nov 05 17:48 |
| Author: | lolaboona |
| ...was actually formulating my own beliefs about the
world, morality, etc. I know it takes time to do that, and the process is
actually continuous. But the best way of feeling confident in leaving
mormonism is not, in my opinion, learning all the reasons why mormonism is
false. The best confidence is found from having your own affirmative
beliefs. Once you have found this yourself, the truth and lies of mormonism
are irrelevant. Sure, there are little tidbits of "truth" and morality that
can be extracted from religions, including mormonism, but they are generally
common sense ideas of humanity (that are also often inhibited by other
religious ideas that take precedence). The bottom line is you'll never be able to debate a mormon on reasonable grounds. It is too easy for them to "win" when they can make up anything they want to support their arguments. The goal is to find what you believe, and your reasons for disbelieving mormonism's claims become totally irrelevant to what you believe. And the feeling of ACTUALLY believing in something (as opposed to being told constantly what you believe) is enough to prevent those nagging doubts of mormons from getting you to second guess your position. |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision...//well-there's something in that |
| Date: | Nov 05 18:44 |
| Author: | been through it |
| //"staying strong"----that's MormonSpeak 101. You
don't need it any more. There is no reason in the whole wide world why you have to "stay strong" in your decision to leave. Go back if you want. That's the glory of taking control of your own life. You don't have to stick to a pre-determined course any more. I would predict that if you do go back, you will be squirmy leading to miserable ending with running screaming from the building (figuratively) and you'll never need shoring up again. So I say let it take its course if you want. Or, skip that step and try these alternatives: 1) don't engage in these conversations at all. It is an intensely personal and painful decision to leave one's religion. Saying so ends the conversation: walk away. 2) if you decide to engage, I myself like this response to the JS thing you pose above: "I am flawed, too. And I'm counting on God to afford me the same tolerance he apparently showed JS. I'm not a prophet and I'm not leading anyone anywhere. Surely God has enough love in his heart for someone like me to make my own way." 3) Or, somewhat more maturely, this one: "It's not my purpose to damage your beliefs in any way. It's a very painful process and I do not want to be responsible in any way for launching something like that in you. I wish you all the best on your path." |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 05 19:10 |
| Author: | sunflower |
| Think about this 10 percent of my money going to a church who finances billion dollar malls. Leaves missionaries surviving on 130. per month The temple ceremony, tell me you really felt the spirit? Men prying into your personal affairs, how many earrings can you wear, how long should your skirt be, what you can eat and drink, pay, pray and obey. OBEY!!!!! my biggest hangup,no freedom, you cant drink what you want, you cant talk the way you want. everything from the inside out, your underwear for God's sake is controlled by old men. No more Sunday's in the park or the mountains, in a building, wearing pantyhose and long flowered dresses. From birth to death, everything you touch, you feel, you speak, you see, you taste, you read, the tv shows you watch, the movies you see are all controlled by old men. Should I go on? Hang in there girlfriend. this too shall pass. |
| Subject: | This might sound counterintuitive but... |
| Date: | Nov 05 19:10 |
| Author: | Johnny |
| ... I recommend going back to Church every once in
awhile. It may surprise you just how differently you will see things now
that the rose-colored glasses are off. Few things reinforce my belief that
my decision was correct than attending a Church meeting or Conference, I kid
you not. I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this either. |
| Subject: | Re: This might sound counterintuitive but... |
| Date: | Nov 06 03:06 |
| Author: | Ateo |
| Mail Address: |
| Johnny wrote: > ... I recommend going back to Church every once in awhile. It may surprise you just how differently you will see things now that the rose-colored glasses are off. Few things reinforce my belief that my decision was correct than attending a Church meeting or Conference, I kid you not. > I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this either. Isn't that the truth. Despite what you'd always thought, the focus of most lessons is on exclusively Mormon scripture or JS. Gotta love Christmas season right? All those talks on Joseph Smith the Sunday before just HAS to fill all those investigators hearts with the spirit. Everything from the propaganda to those god awful walls that give you rug burn. Ugh! |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 06 03:40 |
| Author: | kryptonite |
| Christy219, People can stick with a lot of things that do not make sense. You asked how do people who is knowledgeable about Joseph Smith's story stay in the church. Well one obvious reason is some people just don't know Joseph Smith's story as well as they think they do. They think they have a good grasp of Joseph Smith when actually they can be just as brainwashed as the next guy. Though there are people who probably knows every dirty detail about Joseph Smith's history and still stay in the church. That's because people are good at justifying anything in their minds. People have been doing this for centuries, you'll usually hear these people say things along the lines of, "yeah Joseph may have been a con artist but he gave people hope so he was a good man." I personally think he was a horrible person overall, but that's really up for you to evaluate yourself. I would say the best way to stay strong with your decision is to educate yourself about your decision. The more you know about why you think your right the easier it is to defend your opinions, you can also evaluate what other people tell you, and in many cases figuring out how full of shit a lot of people are. |
| Subject: | Flawed-but-human men do not use their church position to pressure married women and teenage girls... |
| Date: | Nov 06 05:47 |
| Author: | FreeAtLast |
| ...to marry them, which is exactly what Joseph Smith
did in the case of more than 11 married female converts to Mormonism and 7
naive, vulnerable teenage girls, some young enough to be Joseph's daughters
(as young as 14; ref.
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org). Joseph Smith's psychological
manipulation of early converts to Mormonism, and emotional and sexual abuse
of vulnerable female members was morally repugnant and truly criminal. No
wonder he got shot! Your 'knowledgeable' friend(s) can go to the LDS Church genealogy website (http://www.familysearch.org) and see the polygamous marriage data for themselves by entering Joseph Smith's birth info. (Dec. 23, 1805; Vermont, USA) and clicking on Ancestral File No. 1, which lists many (but not all) of Smith's female 'conquests'. And just to 'shake' their 'faith', ask them why Joseph Smith married Mormon women who were already married when 'the Lord' never authorized him to do so, and adultery was against the 7th commandment (in the Bible, which Joseph read as a young man) and a 'sin next to murder' for which Latter-day Saints have been excommunicated. What you've described is the transition phase between being utterly brainwashed by Mormonism and being 100% free of it psychologically. What brought you to this point was you thinking for yourself and thinking rationally, both of which are your right. How do you stay strong? You remind yourself that the LDS Church lied to you in order to bolster your faith about Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, the origins of Mormonism and more. They also took your money (if you paid tithing) and used it in a manner that has and will financially benefit the church. The Mormon Church has done the same with millions of people over the past 7 generations, including a lot of poor people. Deceiving people and using propaganda and outright lies to bolster people's faith in a church is nothing less than fraud, which is also morally reprehensible, and criminal. Anchor your thoughts in the many irrefutable facts that do not support Mormonism. For example, DNA research involving Native Americans has shown that their ancestors came from northeast Asia 10,000+ years ago, not from Israel about 600 B.C. Science has proven, beyond any doubt, that the 'keystone' of Mormonism (The Book of Mormon) is not a true history of the ancient Americas. Therefore, Joseph Smith lied about 'translating' gold plates. It turns out that he lied about many other things, such as his so-called 'First Vision' experience (ref. http://www.irr.org/mit/First-Vision-Accounts.html). How does one respond to Latter-day Saints who profess their nonsensical beliefs to keep someone from 'straying from the straight and narrow path'? With the truth/facts. Here's text from a website about how Mormonism psychologically conditions people that addresses some of your concerns: "Many Latter-day Saints do not trust their mind, at least not fully. Why? Because of how they've been psychologically conditioned by Mormonism. Mormonism 'programs' Latter-day Saints to mentally flee from, trivialize, and condemn facts/truths/realities that do not support the LDS Church's doctrines, teachings, and foundational claims. When confronted by faith-disrupting facts, Mormons have a choice: Either they acknowledge the facts and question/doubt what they've been taught, or they ignore or trivialize the facts that conflict with their religious faith. The psychological result of doing the latter is developing a reputation with one's mind that the individual (you?) cannot fully trust it. If a person won't allow their mind to acknowledge and accept facts/realities that conflict with church teachings and widely-held Mormon beliefs, the individual ends up experiencing/feeling a lack of confidence in their mind, its cognitive processes (e.g., their critical and rational thinking), and the judgments and conclusions that their mind produces. Religious people who do not fully trust their mind typically become psychologically dependent on authority figures (parents, church leaders, etc.) to tell them what is true, right, the will of God, how they should behave, etc. Another common symptom of the psychological dysfunction caused by Mormonism is confusion. Many Latter-day Saints feel confused when they're confronted by facts/realities that conflict with their beliefs about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, early church history, and other aspects of Mormonism. For example, during the past 10+ years, DNA research has repeatedly shown that the principal ancestors of the American Indians came from northeast Asia, not Israel as the Book of Mormon states and the Mormon Church has taught since Joseph Smith's day. Furthermore, the genetic and archeological evidence shows that Native Americans lived in the Western Hemisphere millennia before the Lamanite civilization began (according to the Book of Mormon, sometime between 588 and 559 B.C. - see 2 Nephi). Also, not a single bone, weapon, article of clothing or other object from the 230,000+ Nephites who were killed in the vicinity of the Hill Cumorah (according to Mormon 6) near Palmyra, New York has been found in two centuries of people in that area moving the earth (to farm, build homes and roads, construct the LDS Visitor's Center, etc.). Pointing out these and other faith-shaking facts is not an attack on Mormonism, as some Latter-day Saints perceive. The many historical and scientific facts that do not support foundational aspects of the LDS religion cause Mormons to feel confused because of their strong emotional connection to Mormonism. However, despite what Latter-day Saints feel about their church and faith, the facts that do not support both are never going away. Mormons' psychological health depends on them fully acknowledging and accepting those facts. Why? Because no one can ignore the truth, diminish their awareness by avoiding or trivializing the facts, betray their rational mind in the process, and not pay the price psychologically. Our mind is our principal tool of survival. We need to have full confidence in our mind and its cognitive processes (e.g., our critical and rational thinking) as well as our judgments not only to survive, but to ensure the quality of our lives. If a Latter-day Saint does not fully trust their mind and judgments, it doesn't matter how much money they make or have, their position in the LDS Church, how many generations of their ancestors were Mormons, etc. They are psychologically in need of repair. Lacking confidence in their mind and judgments and confusion are two of several symptoms of psychological dysfunction experienced by Latter-day Saints as a result of how they have been indoctrinated by the LDS Church and psychologically conditioned by Mormonism." (ref. http://members.shaw.ca/blair_watson/). In closing, after 15 years of being out of Mormonism, I can assure you that the psychological phase that you're currently in (out, but feeling somewhat pulled back) will pass so long as you always think for yourself, pay attention to your inner truth (e.g., feeling uncomfortable about aspects of Mormonism that do not add up/make sense), and exercise your critical and rational thinking. Over time, as you live and enjoy your new, post-Mormonism life, the psychological 'pull' of Mormonism will diminish to nothing. I 'testify' of that truth! Best wishes. |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 06 08:07 |
| Author: | anonmo |
| from a nevermo point of view (and i do understand your
stress and respect your mind): -the church limits intellectual experiences: censors books, films, people, relationships.they are too aggressive and assertive about dictating crap like earrings, never mind butting into things that matter. -the basis of the church, yesterday, today and tomorrow, appears to be some kind of Ponzi scheme con -they do not obey the civil rights laws and intentions of the country -they are secretive about money and business dealers. now. if there was a person you met at work who had the above characteristics/tendencies would you go out for green jello with them? hell no. this content screams: don't go. bless you my sweet. broaden your mind. learn about art and literature and good music. in addition to all the other stuff you need to deal with. stop reading the bible and church sh*t for a while. |
| Subject: | Re: Staying strong in my decision... |
| Date: | Nov 06 08:15 |
| Author: | wisedup |
| On your journey - you will find the Joseph is not the only flaw in the church. When you eventually see the church as it really is - you will find there is very little truth in it. One day, you will look back and realize you made the best decision in your life - by leaving the so called "only true church." |
| Subject: | "make the decision once! " |
| Date: | Nov 06 14:11 |
| Author: | Captain Caveman (not logged in) |
| that's the worst thing the church could possibly
teach. everyone has the right to change their minds. so lets say we make a decision to go to church. we make it once. as time goes on we find that church makes us miserable. we find nasty lies and fear-mongering. we have no right to change our mind? i call BS on that one. Christy, you are probably having some culture shock. give it time, you'll adjust. sounds like you are doing good so far. I had moments of confusion as well, i think a lot of people do, but once i got angry there was absolutely no turning back. the anger is definitely wearing off, but sometimes i'll have a dream or a memory and it sparks some of those negative emotions. it's normal i suppose... but good work on studying the BoA. that was is a nail in the coffin for a lot of folks so to speak. |
| Subject: | it depends on what you mean by "flaws"..... |
| Date: | Nov 06 14:21 |
| Author: | danboyle |
| for example, I could accept JS as a prophet if he had
these kind of flaws: bad dresser, messy hair, bad businessman, bad speller,
bad handwriting, forgetful, too shy or too talkative, couldn't read a map,
not educated. I cannot accept these flaws in a man who claims to be a prophet: cheats on his wife, sleeps with teenage girls, changes doctrines on the nature of god etc, plagiarizes ceremonies, lies to members, has himself declared king of the world, dishonest in business, is deceptive about his ability to "translate", changes revelations, etc etc. There are flaws, and there are FLAWS...... |
|
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org |