|Subject:||Is it true that Mormons rarely say the Lord's Prayer?|
|Date:||Jan 10, 2008|
|It's something I never thought of before, like what
seems like an allergic reaction to the cross, but I came across that
recently and had to ask.
Is this true? And if so, why on earth?
|Subject:||I would say 99% COULDN"T say it|
|Date:||Jan 10 23:37|
|I was raised in the church and remained active until I
was almost 30.
I couldn't recite it correctly if my life depended on it.
|Subject:||Why would anyone ever want to say it?|
|Date:||Jan 10 23:41|
|Mormons value spontaneous prayers. They feel it is
more valid to speak from the heart, spontaneously, than to 'vainly' recite
Personally, I would love to know why Catholics find it important to use certain set prayers in their worship. That aspect of religion has never been a part of my life, so feel free to enlighten me :)
|Subject:||Because Jesus specifically instructed his followers to say it|
|Date:||Jan 10 23:49|
|And if they call themselves Christians and believers, why would they not do as Jesus told them to? They do other things he commanded his followers to do, why not this?|
|Subject:||Re: Because Jesus specifically instructed his followers to say it|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:00|
|Well, like SilkRose was saying, Mormons interpret
those verses before the Lord's Prayer differently. To them, Jesus was just
giving a general example of what a prayer should be and what he was really
asking was for us to pray.
The Book of Mormon and its 'pray always' sermon shapes a lot of that belief too.
|Subject:||Re: Why would anyone ever want to say it?|
|Date:||Jan 10 23:55|
|MATHEW 6: 10-13 states the Lord's Prayer. I grew up in
the Baptist and later Non-Denominational churches. The Lord's prayer was
said occasionally, but not quite as often as the Catholics.
This link will give you the exact listing leading up to it, but to paraphrase, it was used by Jesus Christ to explain how to pray to the Father in Heaven. He never meant for it to be a vain repetition, as verse 7 states. It was simply meant to be a guidance.
"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye:"
I believe that the Catholics failed to read the verses preceding the prayer. Mormon's may value spontaneous prayers, but the "True Order of Prayer" in the Temple, and the prayers said over sacrament certainly are NOT spontaneous as they are in most protestant services over communion.
|Date:||Jan 10 23:57|
|I didn't even consider that. There in fact are a lot
of set prayers in the Mormon faith. The temple prayer, the sacrament prayer.
Perhaps regular prayers and ordinances are being made as a distinction here. That could be why there are set and spontaneous prayers all over the faith.
|Subject:||Mormons also value pre-made prayers.|
|Date:||Jan 10 23:57|
|Sacrament, baptism, setting apart, lots of pre-made
stuff in the temple.
What I don't get is why mormons tend to believe only OTHER religions have pre-set prayers, when they're all over the place in the LDS church.
|Subject:||Not rarely; Mormons NEVER say the Lord's Prayer.|
|Date:||Jan 10 23:54|
|They make up their own prayers, which, with slight
variations, usually follow this formula:
"Dear Heavenly Father,
We thank thee for ________ (usually something stupid like "the moisture we've received" after it has rained).
Please bless that _________ (in our ward, it was often "please bless the Broncos" ;-), but it's usually something like "please bless those who are not with us that they may have your spirit with them... blah, blah, blah).
We say these things in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."
Mormons who want to sound more "righteous" (pretentious) add a lot of meaningless flowery language: thee's, thy's, and lots of ass-kissing adjectives before Jesus's name, etc.
Mormon prayers are supposed to come from the person's "heart", but for the most part, they are rote and meaningless... in other words, they might as well just say the Lord's Prayer, instead of pretending to come up with something original while really just repeating stuff they've heard everyone else say all their lives. But then, if they said the exact same prayers that all the other Christian churches use, then they couldn't call themselves "the one and only true church", could they?
It's the same reason they don't like crosses, although a Mormon will tell you it's because they "focus on the resurrection, not the crucifixion." it's really because for a long time, the Mormon church did not want to be identified with other, mainstream Christian churches, because according to Joe, they were all supposed to be corrupt. Of course, they are trying to mainstream nowadays, but they're also trying to be subtle about it. Suddenly changing their iconography would just make them look stupid, especially when all their members have already been brainwashed to avoid crosses like vampires.
|Subject:||Re: Not rarely; Mormons NEVER say the Lord's Prayer.|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:08|
|Another thing that always struck me as odd for a
religion that values prayers from the heart, most LDS people pray in Old
English style: Thee Thy, etc. If it is truly from the heart, why not
pray/talk to HF as you would your earthly one, or anyone else for that
matter? In your own tongue? When I speak to someone from the heart, I use my
own words and language that is comfortable. It almost seems as if they do
this to sound more important, kind of like people using big words in
conversation without actually knowing the meaning.
SIDE NOTE: As for the crosses, this always struck me as interesting. I asked my TBM FIL who is a retired Colonel in the Air Force what will happen at his Military Funeral. Will he be burried under a Cross for his headstone as do all non-Jewish/Muslim/Athiest/Wiccan etc? He said yes, all protestant and catholic military members are burried with the cross as a headstone, unless family members specifically request a different choice. Also, military chaplains that are LDS, wear the cross on their uniforms to signify their chaplain status.
So, my TBM FIL will be burried in his uniform, with his temple clothes folded over him, under a cross. Hmm...kind of hypocritical?
|Subject:||Why it's "thee" and not "you" in prayer... caution: nerd alert. ;-)|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:33|
|>It almost seems as if they do this to sound more
important, kind of like people using big words in conversation without
actually knowing the meaning.
I agree, I think Mormons do it for that reason, because they've been taught that that's the proper way to address God.
However, The archaic thee, thou, and thy in earlier forms of English were actually the 2nd person singular/familiar pronouns. You, ye and your were the plural/singular formal pronouns (much like tú vs. usted in Spanish, or tu vs. vous in French). So, when speakers of Early Modern English prayed, using thee, thou and thy, they were doing exactly what you describe: speaking to him as they would to their loved ones.
Over the years, since we have lost the familiar form, the connotations of the two have gotten reversed. Thee, thou, and thy sound archaic to our ears, and therefore more formal. Since most people have been taught to pray using those pronouns, I think the belief has arisen that it is supposed to sound formal when you talk to God, and so using you and your sounds like it's disrespectful.
|Subject:||Re: Why it's "thee" and not "you" in prayer... caution: nerd alert. ;-)|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:39|
|Okay, but using those terms in today's society is Not speaking to Him as they would their loved ones. So that argument isn't really valid. I guess the LDS view that it may be disrespectful to speak normally to Him, is based on their idea of this faraway "patriarchal" God. They don't view him as most protestants and catholics do, as a loving friend.|
|Subject:||I just had a nerdgasm|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:47|
|Ahh...linguistics and the evolution of language. I
can't think of anything more pleasing to the ears.
Although most people think it is a more formal way of speaking, the 'thees and thous' are being used correctly by Mormons everywhere. It is more appropriate to talk to God in an informal tone than it is to talk to God in a formal tone. Du bist ein gross Gott or Tu eres mi padre would both be appropriate ways to address God, while using the formal sind sie or usted es is much more distant.
Too bad God doesn't exist and/or doesn't care whether we invoke deity in prayer or not :)
|Subject:||Another linguistics nerd? Yay! (tiny swearage)|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:13|
|Skeptical non-believer, I think I officially *heart*
I remember being utterly fascinated when my History of English professor illustrated the thee/you distinction by having us read passages from Romeo and Juliet. When you know the nuances of the language, there are so many more layers of meaning.
Romeo starts out by being a presumptuous little punk, addressing Juliet as "thee" right off the bat. She keeps her propriety and addresses him as "you" at first, until (if I remember correctly) the "wherefore art thou Romeo" speech, when she thinks she's alone and that no one can hear her.
I remember thinking how much more romantic the story seemed once I knew that tiny little fact!
Anyway, to get back on topic, yeah, Mormons are technically using the correct pronouns, but they don't know that. At least, they don't know WHY they're more correct. They think they're being more formal, and more "holy" than people who use familiar language. It just makes them sound pretentious, in my opinion.
I know when I pray to Google, I don't even use pronouns. I just type in key words. The almighty, all-knowing Google god doesn't give a shit how she's addressed. I bet George Carlin doesn't use all that flowery-as-shit language when he prays to Joe Pesci, either. ;-)
|Subject:||Re: Another linguistics nerd? Yay! (a tiny swearage)|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:19|
|I was actually going to use Romeo and Juliet as an
example of how the population hasn't 100% adopted the informal 2nd person
pronouns as being formal. I would venture that most people would think that
someone that uses thee and thou is trying to sound 'lovey dovey.'
I never before caught the distinction between Romeo using informal and Juliet remaining formal. That opens up another layer entirely to the story, haha! Pure awesomeness.
|Subject:||Re: George Carlin reference|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:30|
|I didn't catch it before, but that reference earned you the coveted 'I approve of your humor' award. I bet when we laugh at his jokes, it is the spirit of Pesci that we are feeling too. It must be true.|
|Subject:||Military headstones...angel Moroni option...|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:29|
|A little off-topic...but to respond to this post, my father was buried at a national cemetery with full military honors. One of the options for the headstone is the angel Moroni. I would have preferred the cross, but we went with Moroni because that was what he would have wanted. For what is it worth...wanted to let you know that there is a non-cross mormon option...(since mormons don't believe in crosses)...|
|Subject:||Re: Military headstones...angel Moroni option...|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:31|
|Thank you for correcting my mis-information. I have never heard this. I will let him know.|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:41|
|I didn't know there was a Moroni option...was surprised to find out. One other note...we were not told that metals of valor could be added to the headstone...we would have added a couple of things...like the Bronze Star... We did get the War information on there, though. Also, you probably know this...but he can have his spouse buried with him...|
|Subject:||Re: You're welcome...|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:44|
|Yikes...it's late...misspellings! "Your're" and "metals"...and probably more...|
|Subject:||Re: You're welcome...|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:46|
|It's okay, I do it too :) Thanks for the info. I will let him know about the spouse burial option also. I am military as well as my husband, so I never even considered this. I wish I had known for my recently deceased grandmother. She would have preferred this.|
|Subject:||Re: You're welcome...|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:58|
|I would highly recommend it. The grave-site ceremony is very moving...with a flag presentation and 21 gun salute. Most states have at least one national cemetery. I am pretty sure that anyone who served in the military is eligible...not just retirees...and it is at no charge. There is a web-site that includes additional info...try searching "national cemeteries"...|
|Subject:||Re: You're welcome...|
|Date:||Jan 11 02:02|
|Yes, I used to do the HONOR Guard for these ceremonies a few years back, it is one of the most moving things I have ever done. It really was an honor. I knew about the awards and medals being allowed on the gravestones, I just never knew that spouses could be buried along with the military member. Especially since in some cases, there are more than one coffin in one hole.|
|Subject:||Re: You're welcome...|
|Date:||Jan 11 02:19|
|Yes, my mom will be buried on top of my dad... It's a little morbid...but my family finds it a tad funny that she'll end up "on top"...|
|Subject:||This is shocking for someone like me, raised in Protestantism|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:16|
|To try to explain my shock and where I'm coming from:
I was brought up in mainstream churches, and while I can't speak for these fundamentalist, "evangelical" McChurches so common now (I avoid them like the plague), in every church service, every single one, and often at church meetings, sometimes before choir rehearsals, you name it, we recited the Lord's Prayer together. It's a very holy, moving thing for many, if not most, of the participants, if they are sincere. I think it's because these are the words Jesus was to have actually said. Yes, we realized he was giving guidance on how to pray, that this is a good example, how to frame ones prayers, but it's so good, we like to say exactly those words. Saying the same words (yes, different language) that the Lord is said to have said, made us feel closer to God.
To me, things like the cross and what it stands for and the Lords Prayer are so much part and parcel of Christianity, it shocks me at a gut level that Mormonism specifically avoids doing this. I've often pictured Smith with a list of major Christian practices, doctrines and beliefs, the Big Ones, and checking them off as he goes, "Nope, not that, no, nix, drop that, nope, not, not..." and on and on. Wow. It's weird... I've discovered something about myself, I'm not sure what it says yet, but realizing this has made my stomach kind of shaky and sick feeling.
|Subject:||Re: This is shocking for someone like me, raised in Protestantism|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:30|
|Serena, I don't disagree with you about saying the
Lord's prayer, I agree that it can be extremely Holy and moving to say. I
grew up saying it sometimes too. Also, it was often stated at other
occasions in my church.
I felt the same things about Smith. The thing with them folding their arms to pray always seemed disrespectful to me also. When I cross/fold my arms across my chest, it is usally to say that I am either bored or rolling my eyes to whatever is going on.
Regardless of how people react in the LDS church, I pray by folding my hands, say God, instead of HF, etc. I refuse to be sucked into the "Right" and proper way of doing things according to them.
|Subject:||Re: Is it true that Mormons rarely say the Lord's Prayer?|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:12|
|I still know the Lord's Prayer word for word. We were
required to memorize it in our Jr. Sunday School class in the '50's.
Back in those days, it was considered disrespectful to say, "Hev'nly Father," in stead of "Our Father (who art) in Heaven." I always cringe when I hear that.
We were TBM's, but we sent our children to a Lutheran school. One time we were visiting my TBM parents, and they asked my 6-year-old son to say the blessing at
dinner. He didn't bow his head or fold his arms, but folded his fingers and palms together and recited:
"God is great,
God is good.
We are thankful
For our food.
My parents threw a fit! It was priceless! One of the uncles started making critical comments, (the other uncle was shaking with laughter) and I said, "Very good, Markie. Nice prayer for a 6-year-old. He knows a lot of Bible verses, too." My other son said the same prayer the next night, and my parents never asked either of them to pray again. Ha-ha!
|Subject:||Ok, I'll bite: What was wrong with that table prayer???|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:21|
|Because it was learned and repeated? For heaven's sake, I've read that little kids go up to give "their" testimony, same old same old, "I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet, I know that TCOJCOLD is true.." yada yada yada. If that's not meaningless rote, I'd like to know what is!|
|Subject:||Re: Ok, I'll bite: What was wrong with that table prayer???|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:26|
|Yes, that is exactly why her family had a problem with
it. And, probably the fact that it didn't start with Dear Heavenly Father
and end with In the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Or include more drivel.
It makes me sick to go to the LDS church, and watch the little children be forced to give their "testimony" of "knowing" the church and profit are true. If they know it to be true, why are their parents whispering in their ear what to say? Why not let them do it on their own and say what they feel? Isn't that what "testimony" is?
|Subject:||And what is with the arms crossed during prayer?|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:27|
|I have Mormons in my family, and whenever we get together for a meal, those of us that aren't Mormon hold each others hands during the blessing while the Mormons cross their arms over their chest. I find this rather odd and somewhat defensive posturing. Why is this considered the right way to pray?|
|Subject:||No doubt it's one more way to set themselves apart, to be different - and childish too n/t|
|Subject:||Re: And what is with the arms crossed during prayer?|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:35|
|I questioned the same thing from my TBM inlaws. It is disrespectful stance. I refuse to do it, and will not teach my children this method. They don't like it and once told me I was a bad example to my nieces/nephews who were learning "reverence". My reply, was that Jesus told the pharisees and people in his time to "suffer the little children to come unto me". He loved little children. I doubt very seriously that he expected them to be "reverent" in the way that LDS expect of their little children.|
|Subject:||Crossed arms is a non-verbal way of holding others off, closing off ones self|
|Date:||Jan 11 00:50|
|When I see two people in conversation, both with arms
crossed, or even one, it usually indicates that there's a lack of openness
or good communication. There's something in that body language stuff.
Side note: I got such a kick out of a picture I saw once of my sister sitting with her MIL, a very prissy, uptight woman. Both had arms crossed, polite smiles on their faces, and legs crossed away from each other. Says so much about their relationship!
Now, in my family, we hold hands around the table when we pray, various versions of learned prayers with tacked on personal ones, or it's entirely made up. I almost hate to admit this - when the whole clan is together, we even sing it, and in parts too. Once the extended family (aunts, uncles, cousins) did that at a country club dining room. I was about 14 and wanted to crawl under the table! I love it when my father leads the prayers - he's such a dear, good man, I wish I had his joy in his faith. I struggle and miss the happiness I used to feel. I'm on a journey and everything's right on the surface right now.
|Subject:||Re: Crossed arms is a non-verbal way of holding others off, closing off ones self|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:02|
|Don't be ashamed, we did it too! I thought only my
family was that crazy!
I just thought of something else because of your comment about the country club. Growing up, we always held hands and prayed publicly in restaraunts, school, etc. We weren't loud, and didn't do it as a public display or for others to hear, mostly just dad softly saying the prayer before we ate. Mormons do NOT pray in public for their food. I found this so odd.
|Subject:||I never even HEARD the Lord's Prayer...|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:22|
|until I attended a Catholic wedding in my 20's! The mormon church doesn't acknowledge it...|
|Subject:||It was a popular part of a musical the church did|
|Date:||Jan 11 01:26|
|In Savior of the(our?) World, after Jesus dies, the
apostles carry him in the streets and sing the words to the Lord's Prayer.
It is probably the most popular event that the new conference center has ever held. It was a pretty song too.
|Subject:||The Lord's Prayer is more about uniting Christianity....|
|Date:||Jan 11 03:02|
|throughout the world. I attended an Anglican school
where the prayer was sung during Assembly each morning. I like the version
here but there are many on YouTube.
I remember discussions regarding the 'For Thine is the Kingdom....' ending being spurious as this is not included in the King James Bible.
The Lord's Prayer, 23rd Psalm etc. are always sung/recited during important church services here in England.