|Subject:||The angel with the drawn sword routine.|
|Date:||Jun 02, 2008|
|The first time I heard the angel with the drawn sword
excuse was actually in a BYU religion class. We weren't shown quotes or
anything. It was just an offhand reference by one of my religion teachers
that Joseph Smith had been given the revelation on plural marriage, but
didn't want to live it until he was commanded by an angel with a drawn
sword. It sounded pretty weak even then. I can't think of any way that it
could possibly sound good when Joseph Smith said it. "Fanny, an angel with a
drawn sword appeared to me last night and told me to have sex with my
friends' wives and underage girls. Since you're only 16, what do you say we
repair to the barn for a roll in the hay?"
Maybe I should start saying that. "I know I was supposed to paint the upstairs bathroom today, but an angel with a drawn sword came and commanded me to lay around all day and catch up on some episodes of Lost." Why would that work for Joseph Smith but not me? Maybe the angel thing is passe. Let's try it this way: "Last night I was abducted by aliens who told me that if I did not go out and buy a Sony Playstation 3 today that they would disintegrate me with their death ray." No, that doesn't sound any better.
Look at these quotes:
"When that principle was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith ... he did not falter, although it was not until an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him; and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle, or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected, that he moved forward to reveal and establish that doctrine."
- Prophet Joseph F. Smith, "Plural Marriage for the Righteous Only-Obedience Imperative-Blessings Resulting", Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.28 - p.29
"Joseph was commanded to take more wives and he waited until an angel with a drawn sword stood before him and declared that if he longer delayed fulfilling that command he would slay him."
- Hyrum Smith, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson's Letter to George S. Gibbs, 1903
"I know whereon I stand, I know what I believe, I know what I know and I know what I testify to you is the living truth. As I expect to meet it at the bar of the eternal Jehovah, it is true. And when you stand before the bar you will know. He preached polygamy and he not only preached it, but he practiced it. I am a living witness to it. It was given to him before he gave it to the Church. An angel came to him and the last time he came with a drawn sword in his hand and told Joseph if he did not go into that principle, he would slay him."
- Sister Mary Lightner, Address to Brigham Young University, April 14th, 1905, BYU Archives and Manuscripts
Also See: http://www.ldshistory.net/pc/merlbyu.htm
"His brother, Hyrum, said to me, "Now, Brother Benjamin, you know that Brother Joseph would not sanction this if it was not from the Lord. The Lord revealed this to Brother Joseph long ago, and he put it off until the Angel of the Lord came to him with a drawn sword and told him that he would be slain if he did not go forth and fulfill the law." He told my sister to have no fears, and he there and then sealed my sister, Almira, to the Prophet."
- Joseph Smith's personal secretary and church patriarch, Elder Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life's Review
"The Prophet Joseph Smith there and then explained to me the doctrine of plurality of wives; he said that the Lord had revealed it unto him, and commanded him to have women sealed to him as wives; that he foresaw the trouble that would follow, and sought to turn away from the commandment; that an angel from heaven then appeared before him with a drawn sword, threatening him with destruction unless he went forward and obey the commandment."
- Prophet Lorenzo R. Snow, sworn affidavit.
How outrageous! It's like that thread from yesterday about why the Garden of Eden in Missouri isn't a bigger deal. How did people go in for that? It's unbelievable. I'm absolutely stunned that women fell for that angel with the drawn sword line. "An angel threatened to kill you if you didn't have sex with me? Well, that makes me feel pretty undesirable, but here let me get this dress up over my head." Some people will believe anything.
|Subject:||Sex for Joseph Smith - Heavenly Father's Top Priority (based on the angels He sent)|
|Date:||Jun 07 15:38|
|The Church Declares:
"It is true that the Prophet Joseph Smith was visited by many heavenly messengers who helped inaugurate this final dispensation. Heavenly beings came to Joseph Smith to bestow priesthood keys, to unfold the majesty and glory of future events, and to warn or to admonish the maturing Prophet. Certainly to a remarkable degree the Prophet Joseph Smith received communication from an array of angels who helped prepare him to carry out his foreordained mission."
"The channels of communication are ever open between God and his appointed leaders of his living church."
"Latter-day Saints are blessed through the Prophet Joseph Smith’s great faith and mission that opened the windows of heaven. He was the pre-appointed agent through which communion with the heavens and the earthly ministry of angels were resumed in a grand manner. The mountain of truth built from the Prophet’s translations and revelations speaks for itself, towering above the stark foothills of earthly philosophy. This is amazing in light of young Joseph’s mortal inadequacy. Through faith, his weaknesses became strengths, and he nobly fulfilled his great foreordained mission—because heavenly messengers were his guides."
- LDS Church Publication, Ensign, Oct. 1994, page 62
Among these heavenly messengers, Joseph Smith testified that the Lord kept sending an angel with a sword to command him to secretly marry women. This angelic visitor appeared and threatened Joseph Smith's life on at least a half-dozen occasions.
Latter-day Saints should recognize an important message from the Prophet Joseph Smith's experiences with this heavenly messenger.
They demonstrate the Lord's priorities.
What a shame the Lord didn't send an angel with a sword to straighten Smith out on these other occasions:
- No angel tried to stop him ordaining blacks to the priesthood
- No angel corrected him for writing contradictory versions of the First Vision story
- No angel coerced him into not ordering the destruction of the Nauvoo expositor press
- No angel tried to stop him from ordering the Danites to kill Governor Boggs
- No angel corrected him for repeatedly saying that Native Americans are Lamanites.
- No angel warned him to stop having sex with his adopted daughters
- No angel prevented Smith from claiming to know how to translate Egyptian
- No angel came to tell him what happened to the lost 116 pages
- No angel stopped him from committing bank fraud
- No angel stopped him from trying to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon
- No angel told him to take naked touching out of the endowment ceremony (that didn't happen until Jan 2005)
- No angel chastised him from declaring he was greater than Jesus Christ
Nope. Angelic messengers were complete no-shows, except for when Smith supposedly didn't want to seduce other men's wives, and then Voilà, A MIRACLE! The Lord sends His angel to force Smith into secret adultery!
What kind of Lord do Mormons worship?
Someone else put this post on an LDS board, where a big TBM apologist responded. Here are some of his responses to my list, with my feedback.
>>"I have no problem with Joseph ordaining blacks to the priesthood."
Maybe you don't, but the never-will-lead-the-church-astray prophets of the church did have a BIG problem with it for over 120 years.
In an official LDS Church First Presidency statement from August 17th, 1951:
"The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality, and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the principle itself indicates that the coming to this earth and taking on mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintained their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes."
"Man will be punished for his own sins and not for Adam's transgression. If this is carried further, it would imply that the Negro is punished or alloted to a certain position on this earth, not because of Cain's transgression, but came to earth through the loins of Cain because of his failure to achieve other stature in the spirit world."
- Official First Presidency Statement, see William E. Berrett's "The Church and the Negroid People," pp. 16-17
>>"I don't believe that the First Vision accounts are significantly contradictory."
Joseph Smith's accounts contain significant contradictions.
>>"Native Americans are Lamanites."
That would mean they are descendants of Lehi, who was a Jew from Israel. If Native Americans are descendants of an Israelite, why is there no trace of Israelite DNA in Native Americans? Funny how other tribes around the world have been able to prove their Israelite lineage through DNA.
>>"The question of Joseph's marital relationships is (pretty much by its nature) rather murky..."
The scriptures and the historical record are VERY clear why Joseph Smith was commanded to take "virgins a hundred fold." This included his own foster daughters. Don't take my word for it, take the word of faithful LDS member and church historian, Todd Compton:
Emily and Eliza were the daughters of Nauvoo Bishop, Edward Partridge. When he died in 1840, Emily, sixteen, and Eliza, twenty, looked to “hire out” as maids to help support their family. They boarded at the Smith home and Joseph "adopted" them into his family.
Joseph Smith secretly married both of them behind Emma's back.
According to Joseph Smith's faithful personal secretary, William Clayton, on May 22nd, 1843, Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in a bed of an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
- William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)
This is very similar to what Smith did with two other young women. When Joseph Smith visited Canada in 1837 he converted to the church, Edward and Margaret Lawrence and their daughters Sarah and Maria. The Lawrence family moved to Nauvoo, where both parents died soon after their arrival. In 1842, Sarah and Maria, sixteen and eighteen years-old, began living in Joseph Smith’s home as "adopted" daughters like Emily and Eliza Partridge who were also living at the Smith residence.
In the spring of 1843, Joseph married Sarah and Maria.
>>"I believe that Joseph's translations were divinely inspired and correct."
According to the LDS Church, his translation of the Egyptian Papyri and facsimiles is not correct. Haven't you read The Church Ensign, July 1988, Page 51?
"The papyri in question are a part of the collection of Egyptian mummies and papyri that the Prophet Joseph Smith bought from Michael Chandler in 1835. After the Prophet's death, the papyri were lost to the Church. But in 1966, Dr. Aziz S. Atiya, a professor of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Utah, discovered some twenty-two separate papyri fragments in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City, which were clearly part of Joseph Smith's original collection."
"[F]rom paleographic and historical considerations, the Book of Breathings papyrus can reliably be dated to around A.D. 60-much too late for Abraham to have written it. Of course, it could be a copy-or a copy of a copy-of the original written by Abraham. However, a second problem arises when one compares the text of the book of Abraham with a translation of the Book of Breathings; they clearly are not the same..."
Wherever Joseph Smith got the Book of Abraham, it is admittedly not a translation of the papyri, as he claimed.
>> "Joseph received two revelations (Doctrine and Covenants 3 and 10) regarding the 116 lost manuscript pages. Whether or not they were delivered via an angel seems rather unimportant."
You completely sidestepped the point. If an angel can appear to command Joseph to secretly proposition women, why didn't an angel come and show Smith where the 116 pages were lost, or at least tell him they would never come to light?
>>"Joseph didn't commit bank fraud."
The record is very clear that he did. See:
>>"Joseph never claimed to be greater than Jesus Christ."
According to the Official History of the Church, he did. Here's what Joseph Smith declared publicly:
"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet."
- The Prophet Joseph Smith, History of the Church Vol. 6, p. 408-412
I'm only left wondering why this huge TBM apologist is such a blatant liar. I can't believe it is out of ignorance.
It's blatant lies like these that offend truth-seeking Mormons and ruin the credibility of the so-called church apologist establishment.
|Subject:||God was pretty assertive about getting more women for Joe.|
|Date:||Jun 02 18:18|
|Too bad He didn't think to use the sword bit to
reinforce that He loves all his children equally, even Blacks, who should
get the priesthood right from the get go.
No, the sword had to be reserved for the really important issues.
|Subject:||Re: God was pretty assertive about getting more women for Joe.|
|Date:||Jun 02 18:25|
|Are we really expected to believe that if Smith had
said, "No I will not have sex with other men's wives and teenagers!" He
would have been beheaded by an angel?
How would that obituary read?
|Subject:||That's a great point.|
|Date:||Jun 02 18:30|
|I've always wondered about the explanation that non-whites couldn't hold the priesthood until 1978, because the members of the Church weren't ready for them to until then. Then how come they were ready for polygamy? And why couldn't God just send an angel with a drawn sword to make sure his Church was non-discriminatory. Ahh yes, because God works in mysterious and tax-free ways.|
|Subject:||Thank you. Very interesting observation. Never thought about that.|
|Date:||Jun 03 12:49|
|TBMs and apologists always use the 'Joseph Smith was a
man who made mistakes' and 'God gives all men agency-- so even prophets make
mistakes' logic to explain crazy things that JS and other leaders did.
But it seems in the case of polygamy/polyandry God wasn't having any agency. He was all, "Enough stalling! You must have sex with these women!" It was do it or die.
So why didn't God use this approach in other cases? Surely there were other things that were at least as important as marrying a 14yr. old girl. How about protecting the 116 pages? Joseph would have not asked a third time if the angel and sword were there. The angel and sword may have helped in other instances when the mortal Joseph failed to get it right.
Wasn't there for the translation of the Book of Abraham. You'd think that was important enough for some angel/sword supervision.
The Kirtland Banking fiasco led to mass apostasy. You'd think God would use the angel to avoid that mess.
Do you think the angel with sword appeared to Joseph and Hyrum fleeing Nauvoo and commanded them to return to Carthage so the could seal their testimonies with their blood??
Seems to me that either God was asleep on the job and missed some perfect opportunities to use his armed angel. It could be that he only really cares about polygamy and none of that other stuff.
Or perhaps Joseph Smith just created this crazy story to manipulate women into having sex with him.
Great observation. Thanks again.
|Subject:||Why would an angel need a sword anyway?|
|Date:||Jun 02 19:37|
|Author:||Jonny the Smoke|
|Could the angel even hold it? Not if it was a "real"
sword....remember the good angel/bad angel handshake test? And if it was a
spiritual sword, it wouldn't hurt him anyway.
Typical Joe Smith......an angel can't shake your hand because he has no body, but he can hold a sword and smite you with it......good one!
Surely an angel could vaporize him without the use of a primitive peice of sharpened metal.
|Subject:||Questions for anyone who knows.|
|Date:||Jun 02 20:13|
|Q: Are there any other instances other than this
"merry, sorry, marry them all or else" situation where a flaming sword was
used for genital, sorry, gentle persuasion? Joe or any other profit, sorry,
Q:Where could Joe have come up with the flaming sword idea? Why not a plague, or other scourge that is found in the bible? Was it Joe's flair for the egotistical that prompted more dramatic theatrics?
What a smooozer. I wish he were here in the flesh so I could give him a smack upside the head and a kick in the dingdongs.
Thank you for those quotes Makurosu. They are useful when talking to TBMs.
|Subject:||The quotes came from Deconstructor's excellent website.|
|Date:||Jun 02 20:19|
Decon has been collecting quotes for that website for years, and there is a lot of good stuff there.
I don't think Smith ever called it a "flaming" sword, though I could be wrong. However, maybe he had his mind on the Garden of Eden story, which makes me wonder if he saw it as a sexual metaphor. Knowing Smith, he probably thought everything was a sexual metaphor.
Speaking of sexual metaphors, it's interesting that the drawn sword was what caused him to do these things.
|Subject:||God = Free Agency and Satan = Compelling People To Follow His Plan|
|Date:||Jun 03 01:26|
|That's the shtick right?
So why does God send an Enforcer to threaten his own son with death if he doesn't follow Dad's Plan (Registered Trademark)?
And what about D&C 132?
Again it's God who's threatening his own child (Emma, this time) with destruction if she doesn't toe the line?
|Subject:||MAK! You made me think of The Three Stooges!!|
|Date:||Jun 02 20:15|
|>The angel with the drawn sword routine.
"What's that? An angel with a drawn sword told you to boff that broad? Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!"
|Subject:||I was thinking of Jon Lovitz' character on Saturday Night Live.|
|Date:||Jun 02 20:23|
|I'm not the one who wants to have sex with married women and underage girls... it's ahhh GOD who commanded me to do it... yeah... and I disobeyed him for a long, long time, pure unsoiled boy that I am... until ehh... he sent an ANGEL... yeah! an angel with a DRAWN SWORD! That's the ticket. The angel said if I didn't have sex with all these women, he would slay me... yeah... you don't want THAT on your conscience now do you? ;-)|
|Subject:||HAHAHAHA! That is exactly who I was thinking about! :) n/t|
|Subject:||Hey, Makurosu: I found PROOF of your THEORY!!!|
|Date:||Jun 03 13:18|
|Here it is.
Separated at birth: Joseph Smith, Jun. and Jon Lovitz/Tommy Flanagan...
A SNL transcript that is pretty hilarious:
And then I said to my sixth wife-to-be...hey, I didn't wanna do this, but an angel with a flaming sword said I hadta! Yeah, that's the ticket...I HAD to marry you! And I said well what about my OTHER wives: Emma, and...and Mrs. Lincoln, yeah...what're they gonna say? And he said: marry or die. Yeah... he said he woulda hadta kill me...yeah, KILL me! That's what he said! Hey, I'm not makin' this up...why would I lie?!?
|Subject:||See, I knew it.|
|Date:||Jun 03 14:00|
|LOL! That is a startling likeness! Can you say 'pants on fire' when he isn't wearing any?|
|Subject:||Re: The angel with the drawn sword routine.|
|Date:||Jun 02 21:38|
|Author:||TBH(true believing human)|
|Joseph actually did give a few black men the
About the "drawn sword": how could all these people not see that as some weird metaphor for his raging hormones. He certainly had a nice way of fitting his whole life into his religion.
|Date:||Jun 02 21:56|
|Author:||5th generation BIC|
|Well, now... somebody had his sword drawn, didn't he?
Imagine a thirty year old man being commanded to have sex with young women. Do you think he'd put up a fight?
The sword was drawn and ready. I suppose it was held erect, too. It went snicker-snack, and Joseph went galumpfing back. He chortled in his joy.
|Subject:||Joseph Smith Told Creative Stories to Manipulate|
|Date:||Jun 02 22:59|
|Joseph Smith was a very creative fibber from an early
age. It started with the treasure seeking, but soon turned to getting women
for sexual gratification.
I think one of the most significant events took place when Joseph Smith was "seeking" the gold plates. He told Emma Hale that he received a revelation (via the trusty hat and peep stone) that the ONLY WAY he would be able to receive the "golden plates" from the hill was if he brought the "right person" with him. He told her that the "right person" was HER. But he didn't stop there, he told Emma that he was told that she MUST MARRY HIM in order to get the plates.
The manipulation worked and Emma and Joseph eloped. I'm sure even Joseph was surprised that such outlandish words would convince Emma to marry him straight away, but they did. From that point on, Joseph began using more and more creative ways to obtain women for sexual gratification including revelation on polygamy; guaranteeing families Celestial life if they gave up their daughters to him; the angel with the drawn sword, etc. He really had a serious sexual perversion that he couldn't control.
|Subject:||Re: The angel with the drawn sword routine.|
|Date:||Jun 02 23:10|
using my specialMilitary training!!
I'd disarm that Angel and hack an arm off just to spite "Ammon!!"- where ever he is.
I missed the movie in 2003, Equilibrium,
where christianbale is this enforcer type as the govt fights against these rebels,
and in the final fight scenes,
bale takes away someones sword and, using an underhanded, upward swing / backhanded swing he takes out everyone,
including his swordMaster, whom gets his face cutOff by bale.
I missed theMovie cos I was busy working in theVillage!! at that time frame, lazily, quickly,drawing theSteelBaton if needed and striking arms, legs, backs and reHolstering just as quickly.
it takes effort and practice to get good at that though,
I guess Chicks!! dig angels and swords, cos just look at olJoe's!! harem at familyTree!!
*looks at villageChixxx!! all 3 eating food, watching tv, and one's sleeping!!*
|Subject:||I Tried that line on my wife....|
|Date:||Jun 03 13:29|
|that an angel commanded me to take other women for
purposes of sex, her response: "Do it and I will kill you myself".
Oh well, can't hurt to try.
|Date:||Jun 03 00:40|
|So much of mormonism is just plain goofy, or stupid at
worst, now that I consider it from the outside.
When Trib articles are posted, and their subsequent "comments" letters... (like the current '78 anniversary one) I'm just amazed at how the TBMs can spin that stuff. It's scary.
Joseph and the flaming sword would be fun to see spun.
|Subject:||I thought it was a flaming sword. That's way scarier than just a normal sword. nt|
|Subject:||Lots of drawn swords in the bible to plagiarize.|
|Date:||Jun 03 01:57|
|1 Chronicles 21:16
And David lifted up his eyes, and saw the angel of the LORD stand between the earth and the heaven, having a drawn sword in his hand stretched out over Jerusalem. Then David and the elders of Israel, who were clothed in sackcloth, fell upon their faces.
Several other references.
|Subject:||It was a light saber!!!|
|Date:||Jun 03 09:12|
|THAT was the flaming sword - that Joe was WAY ahead of
his time and this just proves that Star Wars is true! Remember (you old
farts like me that is) when it first came out and everyone was comparing the
force with the priesthood? Well, they were in my student ward anyway.
Thanks for the chuckle Mak!
|Subject:||Help me Obi Wan Moroni! You're my only hope!|
|Date:||Jun 03 09:28|
|Author:||Koo Koo for Kaukaubeam|
|Subject:||I never thought of that!|
|Date:||Jun 03 11:27|
|"Last night, Darth Vader appeared in my room with a drawn light sabre and commanded me to go cruising for chicks or else I would be slain. He also said he's my father."|
|Subject:||What if Monson used the flaming angel to justify the mega mall? lol n/t|
|Subject:||I tried the flaming sword routine with my wife|
|Date:||Jun 03 10:17|
|I wanted her to wear stockings & suspenders & told her that an angel with a flaming sword had appeared to me & ordered her to wear them.....she didn't believe me!|
|Subject:||Which brings out yet another contradiction in this 'gospel'|
|Date:||Jun 03 11:28|
|I'm constantly amazed at how many contradictions there
are in the 'gospel' and I even wrote a post about it a few weeks ago. This
particular thread boldly points out the mormon lie that God has granted us
free agency. If some angel dude was standing over me with a sword and told
me to do something or else he'd slice me in half, I'd feel very little
|Subject:||Not disimilar to Nephi being ordered to chop off Labans head with a sword|
|Date:||Jun 03 11:41|
|Another contradiction in free agency. Nephi didn't
want kill Laban, but was forced into it by the spirit of god.
Wow....these swords keep cropping up where Joseph Smith is concerned.
|Subject:||God said its OK to Withhold Tithing until you see an Angel With a Drawn Sword.|
|Date:||Jun 03 13:09|
|Works for me......|
|Subject:||Re: The angel with the drawn sword routine.|
|Date:||Jun 03 15:47|
|Author:||Kolobs Lil Angel|
|>>I'm absolutely stunned that women
fell for that angel with the drawn sword line. "An angel threatened to kill
you [Joseph Smith] if you
didn't have sex with me? Well, that makes me feel pretty undesirable, but
here let me get this dress up over my head." Some people will believe
That was funny and I need a laugh today.
Your right, it's a different breed of women today.
It's amazing what liberation, getting the vote, and greater rights will do for the intellect.
187 Angels Coerced Smith into Sex?
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org