|Subject:||Arrogant Mormon Youth|
|Date:||Jul 07, 2008|
|Author:||Ex-Morgbot in Deprogramming Mode|
|Summary||My Husband and I left the Mormon Church. The teenagers still want to attend.|
My DH and I just left the morg about 6 months ago, and this site has been such a lifesaver! I had no idea there were actually people who felt the same way I do!
We have 4 children courtesy of my apparent "B.M.H. Bachelors in Motherhood" degree from the Y. (Don't get me wrong- I love my kids very much and do not regret a single one of them) They range from my son who is 15, 2 daughters who are 13 and 11, and another son who is 7.
Upon leaving the church, we sat down with the kids and had a long conversation about why we were leaving. My husband explained that we understand they have friends in the ward and that we would respect their decision to stay if they felt they wanted to. Well, the 11 year old and the 7 year old have decided to join us outside the "collective", but my teenagers are staying in for the time being. I would have loved to see my whole family out, but I also felt it cruel to rip them away from some of their best friends. I hope they will use their God-given brains one day to figure out that the church is a bunch of sacred bs, but who knows. Probably their first time in the temple will do the trick! :)
Anyways, both my son and daughter have become increasingly defiant of my husband and me. I am especially concerned about my son. I purchased a cross necklace for the first time a few weeks ago- I suppose symbolizing to myself what I truly believed in. My son saw me wearing it one day and started yelling and getting very violent, almost to the point that I was afraid of him hurting me (I am only 5 feet tall and he is almost 6 feet) My husband took him outside and forced him to walk with him to cool down. We then grounded him for 3 days without friends, phone, tv, or internet usage besides for school. My daughter became very upset claiming that it was religious persecution and then began quoting off verses from BoM. I looked at her and told her that I knew these verses well and that she didn't have to quote them to me, then sent her off to her room.
I know the Bishop, RS workers, YW leaders, and their friends are pressuring them to put the heat on us. I overheard my daughter talking to a friend on the phone about how "ignorant and stupid" her old-loafing parents are and how she is going to have to "rise above" our faults in order to make a path for herself. I picked up the other end of the phone quietly and did the "bad mom" thing and tried to figure out what was going on. Her friend kept telling her that we were just angry at her and her brother because they were now superior to us in the faith. She also made some rediculous comment at how we obviously didn't get anything spiritual out of the temple and are taking it out on our children. (I think that was due to DH and I voicing our concerns about the temple and the ritual- though we didn't reveal anything) I can say that I didn't get anything out of my endowments or sealing because I couldn't stop staring at the baker hat or the overdone chandellier in the celestial room that nearly took up half the ceiling it was so large and pompous. :)
Back to the issue:
The past 3 weeks have been hell; little things like this. Our family is dissolving and I feel helpless to stop it. I know my children are good kids; or at least I want to believe that I did an okay job raising them to be. I am trying to keep my little ones away from their older siblings but that is proving to be impossible. I suggested counseling to DH but he brought up the valid point that the morg has probably screwed them over so badly that they will not talk in a session.
What blows my mind is the absolute disrespect these youth have for adults, mormon or not. The arrogance makes me sick to my stomach. I come from a long line of TBMs and never felt superior to non-mo adults. I felt that by default, they had been alive longer than me so they probably knew more! :) I didn't even raise my kids to believe that when we were in the church. Good grief. Have any of you experienced this with the young mormons of today? I know it is just unadulterated fervor for good old Smitty but it is still really inappropriate!
Off to help the little morgot pack for girls camp... ack!
|Subject:||Have you read the stories of church leaders encouraging divorce (addition)|
|Date:||Jul 07 03:34|
|when one spouse decides to leave mormonism?
This is a similar situation, except that your children are being encouraged to alienate themsleves from you. What reprehensible behavior your children are learning from their church!
I'm not an expert in teens, but I think you need to sit down with them again and tell them what's happening. Say you gave them a choice and they've used it against you. You're disappointed in them and moreso in the mormon church.
Tell them it's the same as when they were small and you gave them permission to order whatever they wanted at a restaurant. If they'd only ordered ice cream and then started spitting it at you, you would have had to recind their free choice. They can't attend the mormon church unless they're respectful of you and your family rules.
That's what you'd do if they chose friends who trashed your house and gave you kids drugs. You'd have to take back their freedom to associate with and bring home such "friends."
The mormon church teaches children to honor their parents but to hate non-believers. This is a double bind message and your kids are conflicted and not able to deal appropriately. Tell them that.
This is a difficult problem, and I'm sorry. Wish I could be of more help. You might feel bad about having to go back on your word, but I don't see another way. I think they'll need to start treating you well if they want to continue to attend a church which is in effect trying to break up your family.
Tell them you're ready to openly and reasonably discuss wearing a cross, not wearing garments, drinking tea, changing the blessing on the food or whatever changes are happening in the home. But you still retain the rights of parents to make final family decisions. These kids are not the parents, just because they're mormons and you're not.
|Subject:||I have no advice... but I can commiserate|
|Date:||Jul 07 03:46|
|I've never been a Mormon myself. My husband has two
daughters with his ex wife who no longer speak to him. The one time I met
them back in the summer of 2003, the younger one (9 years old at the time)
slapped my husband across the face because we had beer in the refrigerator.
Three years after that, she and her older sister (then 12 and 15), sent my
husband letters demanding that he allow their current stepfather adopt them.
The younger one accuses my husband of being "prideful", which is a word I've
never heard much outside of Mormonism. They are both hateful and mean to a
man that could have been a wonderful father to them, had he only been given
To be fair to Mormonism-- I think their mother would have had them acting this way even if they weren't Mormon converts. She did the same thing to her son with her first husband and that was before she became a Mormon. However, Mormon arrogance sure makes it easy for my husband's ex wife to alienate the kids and turn them into self-righteous jerks. I've gotten to the point at which even if they do decide to reconnect, I don't think I'd want to deal with them.
I don't understand this devotion to religion. When I was a kid, being raised as a mainstream Presbyterian, I couldn't stand going to church and would have welcomed the opportunity to stay home on Sunday.
Anyway... I think Cheryl has made some good points. It seems to me that if they're living in your house, they can at least keep a civil tongue. I don't have children myself, but I don't think I would allow kids who acted like that to use my phone if they were using it to blatantly talk trash about me to their friends. I'm sorry you're going through this. I hope they see the light sooner rather than later.
|Subject:||one way you could handle it|
|Date:||Jul 07 04:03|
|What an incredibly difficult situation!
A friend of mine when I was growing up had a nevermo dad. When she and her sisters fought excessively, he told them that attending church was obviously not working, since after all their years of attendance, they couldn't even manage to treat each other civilly. He wouldn't let them go to church for a few weeks until their behavior improved.
You could try a similar tactic with your older two kids and make their LDS church attendance privileges contingent upon treating the heathen within their midst (you and your other kids) decently, while heavily invoking the fifth commandment and the eleventh article of faith. While this could conceivably have the unintended consequence of making the church seem all the more attractive to them, you and your husband deserve to be treated with respect by children you are supporting. You are entitled to peace in your own home.
You were far more accommodating than many parents in your place would have been by allowing them to choose for themselves. Their lack of appreciation is appalling. I suspect that your suspicions are correct regarding their being encouraged in this behavior by church members.
I do think you're right that the temple ceremony may be the thing that causes them to finally see the light. Hang in there. We're all pulling for you.
|Subject:||Familial bonds, pressure and guilt are the glue that binds the Morg together- good to see that ...|
|Date:||Jul 07 04:50|
|Author:||Just wondering 1|
|you've made the attempt to break it. "Families are
Good luck with the situation and how it unfolds.
This site really is a good place to be becuas ethere are others that feel the way that you do. People can share without feeling like they're being judged as "weak" or "unspiritual". Let us know how things go for you and your family. Your feedback might help others who come along here too. :)
|Subject:||I have been in a similar situation|
|Date:||Jul 07 07:41|
|We have six children and I left about 20 months ago. I
couldn't see how my children would leave after me showing them a lifetime of
dedication and such a strong testimony. And I never in a million years
thought that my husband would leave.
My children are 21 down to 12 and they have all left (though one still goes just because of his friends, but he doesn't believe) and my husband left about 6 months ago.
What I did was to just keep telling them the things I was learning. Showing them D&C 132. Showing them all Brigham Young's quotes that can be found on the BYU website. My 21 year old left with me, she had been having the same thoughts even before I had expressed mine to her. Also my 19 year old who has always hated church jumped at the chance to sleep in. Then the younger 2 left, they were disgusted at polygamy and blood atonement.
So for a while it was just my husband and 2 of the boys going. My now 17 year old decided he didn't think it was true and my 20 year old still goes. He is looking for a girlfriend outside of mormonism, I know he doesn't believe. then finally, to my utter surprise, my husband left.
My advice to you is to talk to them, one on one, and touch their heart. Kids have a lot of common sense. Do they really think that God would tell someone to have 34 wives, and threaten to kill him if he didn't. How would they feel if they were one of those wives. Imagine having to listen to your husband in the next room with another woman. It would drive you insane.
All Brigham Young's quotes on blood atonement from www.realmormonhistory.com was a huge factor. Did they really think that God would want them to kill people if they left the church.
You think that nothing is getting through, but trust me, it does. It won't show at first, but one day the shelf falls.
I really feel for you. I went through the same thing but now look. Of course it is no guarantee that they will leave, but the odds are on your side. Keep talking. Sometimes they would roll their eyes, but I thought well, I had educated them in mormonism, now I have just as much right to educate them about the truth. They saw me in tears many times. It was really hard. I loved the gospel. But I hate lies. They saw how much pain I was in that the leaders had lied to us.
I'll be thinking of you. I truly know how you feel.
|Subject:||I agree with JennyAus.|
|Date:||Jul 07 09:03|
|Everything she said.
Don't you believe your children have a right to the truth?
My children and I always shared an open dialog about religion, when we believed in the LDS, and when we did not believe.
Children have good common sense, and will see that the teachings of Mormonism just do not make sense, if they are left alone. Too bad you can't take them away on a vacation somewhere far away, and let them decompress. Sometimes it takes only two or three Sundays away from church, for reality to return. The Mormons know this, and that is why they keep at your children so relentlessly. My children had the hardest time with the LDS racism and prejudices.
Your children are being taught to go against not only you, but against their own heart and intuition. Only the feelings that CONFIRM the church's teachings are acceptable, and any other feelings are considered evil. Do you realize that in this manner, Mormonism is actually pitting your child against himself? In this way, Mormonism creates self-loathing, and depression.
Yes, Mormonism is a cult. Your experiences are classic examples on how a cult operates with children. There are psychologists who specialize in getting children out of cults, and getting them de-programmed. There have been books written on the subject.
My advice is to take your younger children out of there immediately, knowing what you know.
My children went through a very difficult and unhappy time in the LDS church, but we are fine and happy now. Whatever you decide to do, you need to give your children all the love and attention you can. Keep the atmosphere in your home as positive as possible, though it is rough right now. Have optional fun activities with Mom and Dad and the younger kids on Sunday, as an option for the older ones, should they want to participate. Leaving them behind when you go have fun should not be done as a punishment or ostracism, though. Arrange for the church-goers to join in with you after church. You need to be careful to not reject your kids. They'll get a heap of judgment and rejection in the LDS cult, and you need to watch for signs of depression and suicide. You are good parents, and you will succeed because you care about your children.
Why wait for them to go to the temple? Google "The Godmakers" on U-tube, or let them see Richard Packham's video on what REALLY goes on in the temple. Answer all their questions honestly. If you have temple clothes or garments, show them. I personally think it is wrong for Mormons to keep secrets like that from its own members. Your children need to know the truth, now.
Your children think they are Christians, so emphasize the fact that you are a Christian, too. Concentrate on the basics that you agree on. I taught my children the Bible on my own, because it wasn't taught very often in the LDS church. A family discussion of the New Testament, Bible stories, and real prayers (not canned) in your family might satisfy your children's longing for religion. When my children understood that God loves EVERYONE unconditionally, and that Christ died to save us ALL (all religions and races and women and gays alike), they began to see that Mormonism falls short on following Christ's example. Love is not taught, preached, or practiced in the LDS cult. Give your children love. You're all going to need it.
I'm sorry for you, and angry at the way the cult is trying to break up your family. Truth will triumph, however!
|Date:||Jul 07 14:26|
|I'm sorry, but please stay away from "the Godmakers"
and focus on Packham.
You are selling one brand of crazy for another.
You should hold Christianity to the same scrutiny that you use for Mormonism.
At least be consistent.
|Subject:||Re: Arrogant Mormon Youth|
|Date:||Jul 07 08:41|
|Your story is very sad. Having your kids used against
you is insufferably cruel.
Someday, they will realize how cruel and arrogant their actions were. Right now, they feel like they are earning their place in the kingdom.
When push comes to shove, Mormons always push and shove.
|Subject:||My initial response is to nip their crap in the bud NOW. Scared or not, they are way out of line!|
|Date:||Jul 07 08:42|
|They're terrified - this behavior is completely
fear-based, as is all Mor[m]on behavior.
To get past their arrogant fear, quote their "beliefs" right back at them, telling them if they choose to not honor their own key beliefs, they are hypocrites!
10 Commandments including: HONOR THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER!!
AoF11: You are ALL free to worship however you choose!
Jesus: Love EVERYONE, esp including anyone you deem your 'enemy'
Jesus: If you believe any lamb is lost, (which they do you) they are told to show an outpouring of love, not this hate and gnashing of teeth they are showing you!
If they had pulled this crap on their teachers and classmates at school, they'd very possibly be in juvenile hall awaiting sentencing in a court of LAW. Therefore, tell them they are grounded ('jailed') until their attitude improves. Give them lot of extra chores ('work release') to begin to make up for the immense damage they have done to your family. Also, get them involved in soup kitchens or other settings ('community service') where they see what real suffering is all about... tell them they chose these consequences when they freely chose their behavior.
Ask them who is gnashing their teeth (they are!) and who is behaving in a loving Christlike manner (you are!). Tell them they are GROUNDING THEMSELVES from all Mor[m]on activities because they are acting worse than Laman or Lemuel in their efforts to tear apart your family!
imo you need to cut them off from all Mor[m]on contact because their horrible Mor[m]on friends are encouraging them to SERIOUSLY PERSECUTE you for your religious choices! Mor[m]onism is HEAVILY about PROJECTING Mor[m]on behaviors onto everyone around them... they are persecuting you while trying to pretend the opposite is happening.
As I could be completely off the mark here, definitely consult with a good nonMo family therapist asap! If you can find one who knows about cult deprogramming that would help. Richard Packham posts here... find a post by him that will probably have his email addi. Email him and ask for his advice. Hang in there - don't let your brainwashed kids hurt your family anymore.
|Subject:||Re: My initial response is to nip their crap in the bud NOW. Scared or not, they are way out of line!|
|Date:||Jul 07 13:03|
|I totally agree. You need to yank them out of the LDS
church. They are minors and live under your roof. You can foster and
encourage freedom of religion or choice of religion in them. But as parents
you need to set ground rules. No more LDS association for them. You are
going to have nightmares like this as long as they go there. If they are
needing social interaction with kids their age, go find nonLDS activities
for them or go to a Christian church for a while and let them meet some not
so backstabbing, lying, manipulative, decietful friends.
But you do need to take control. Re-explain all the reasons why the LDS church is wrong and why you and your husband left. Then tell them they are no longer allowed to go to LDS church.
|Subject:||Re: Arrogant Mormon Youth|
|Date:||Jul 07 09:12|
|I just re-read your post because I find it very
interesting. One thing you wrote stands out to me--
You said: "I know my children are good kids; or at least I want to believe that I did an okay job raising them to be."
Could it be that you're feeling guilty for raising them in a church you no longer believe in?
To be honest, I think you're being overly understanding about their bad behavior... or at least a lot more understanding than I think I would be in that situation. It seems like you're willing to excuse some pretty appalling behavior in the name of respecting your kids' religious beliefs, which you, admittedly, helped them form. I guess it would be difficult to take a stand about Mormonism when you and your husband raised them to be Mormon.
The fact that your son actually behaved in a threatening way in YOUR house really gives me pause. I know he's bigger than you are, but you're still the one paying the bills. If he threatens you again, maybe you should consider calling the police. As for your daughter, personally, I think if I were in your shoes, I might strongly considering cancelling girls camp for the little morgbot until she learns some manners.
I really feel for you. You're in a tough situation.
|Subject:||Re: Arrogant Mormon Youth|
|Date:||Jul 07 09:19|
|Richard Packham has a u-tube video link in a recent post. In the video he does a demo of the pre 1990 temple ritual with all of the bloody stuff. They want to defend mormonism against their parents, show them the real mormonism. Link: http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon533.htm|
|Subject:||Link to Richard Packham's video:|
|Date:||Jul 07 13:39|
|Subject:||How's that for unlikely bedfellows?|
|Date:||Jul 07 14:34|
|Don't be Mormon- be a X-ian instead! LOL.
Far be it for me to criticize Packham. Mormonism is whack, obviously. But so is Xianity.
|Subject:||You can't have it both ways.|
|Date:||Jul 07 09:20|
|I may be wrong but it sounds like you gave your
children the opportunity to stay in the church (thus dividing your family)
without providing them full disclosure as to the reasons why you left. Of
course the cult will demonize you in the eyes of the children that chose to
stay...that's what cults do.
Your kids are under 18. Yank them the hell out of the cult and let loose with both barrels as to why you are leaving and pulling them out. Let your older children know that the founder of their beloved "church" had sex with children in their age range and all the other sordid details that brought you to your decision to leave.
This "church" will happily destroy your family...IF YOU LET IT. You have all the legal, parental and moral authority to prevent it so just do it.
|Subject:||Re: Arrogant Mormon Youth|
|Date:||Jul 07 13:38|
|No 15 year old would do that to me in my home.
You need to set them all down and tell them that Mormonism has ended for your family as of this day, due to all the problems it causes in the family.
Take back control!
Stop letting Mormons into your lives, intercept phone call and messages, stop letting the kids go to church, stop paying for anything involving Mormonism.
You don't have to police your kids but it would be crazy to allow this situation to continue.
If the kids still sneak around with Mos occasionally, they know they do it without your approval.
But additionally, you have to plan the weekends and make them fun-filled activities without Mormonism.
As long as the kids are in your home, YOU set the standards.
Once they are on their own and self-supporting, they can chose what they want to do.
|Subject:||Have you actually abdicated ALL your parental authority to the church? Or just the part that|
|Date:||Jul 07 13:44|
|deals with your children being members of a cult
(which explains "the business" you've been getting from them in the form of
Since when does a minor child know everything about what's best for him/her self?
If your child walked in one day and said Mom, I'm going to join this church called the Peoples Temple that Jim Jones started and we're gonna move to Guyana, would you say: "Oh, OK honey, I guess you want to hang around with your best friends, huh?"
Do you pay the phone bills in your house, or do they?
Sorry to be so sarcastic, but I think you're beginning to see that the church doesn't mind sucker-punching you and destroying your family in the process of inducting your son and daughter even deeper into their cult. In fact, DESTROYING FAMILIES IS WHAT THE MOR[M]ON CULT DOES BEST. Is that what you want for your family? By trying to "be fair" to your children, you're giving the cult an opportunity to destroy your family.
My advice? Kneecap the teen-aged power trips immediately. Haul them out of church, effect your resignations, and establish clear rules restricting associations and "friendships" with Mor[m]ons. Over-ride your DH, get the whole family into non-Mor[m]on counseling and assure the kiddies that you will all stay there until this issue is talked about and resolved in a manner that is acceptable to YOU, not THEM. And while you're at it, it wouldn't hurt to send some letters written by your lawyer ordering the Stake President, the Bishop and all their minions and underlings to BUTT OUT of your lives or they'll be facing criminal charges for trying to mess with your children. Don't be afraid to involve the local police if that becomes necessary.
Best wishes, and good luck.
|Subject:||Time for tough love.|
|Date:||Jul 07 13:46|
|When they are 18, they can choose whatever church they want. Until then, they must stay out of cults while they are under your roof.|
|Subject:||No offense, just a thought|
|Date:||Jul 07 13:57|
|I have been dealing with similar issues (without the disrespect from my kids) for two years and unfortunately (%$#%@^&!!!!) have a son on a mission (trying to convince the next one at home to go, which encourages me to RESPECTFULLY respond and provide information that will convince him not to go). I agree with most of the comments in the other posts (especially marisa and JennyAus). Having said that, no offense, but are you really respecting your teenagers choice as you promised you would? The reason I ask is because I have no idea, so I am not judging, just asking. Your terminology (which is fine here) - such as "little morgbot", "morg", "sacred bs", "pompous", "Smitty" - wouldn't sound very respectful. Is that message getting through to them through terminology - or even indirectly? If so, my worry is that you will push them further into the clutches of your all-too-eager ward members. I truly believe in your decision to let them have SOME agency. However, you are the parents and they are only kids. Therefore: (1) in your house their agency is ABSOLUTELY contingent on them showing respect to you and having personal accountability. It is absolutely a privilege, which at a minimum requires them to show Christ-like behavior and respect. (2) Agency requires knowledge. I agree that you should share with them as much as possible about why you made the decision to leave. MAKE SURE they are informed as often as possible.|
|Subject:||Stupid ex-mo adults|
|Date:||Jul 07 14:04|
|Author:||Satan's little helper|
|Let me see if I can put this as gently as possible:
YOU ARE AN IDIOT.....
After your son is exposed to a few more years of manipulation, he will go on a mission. He will sell jesus door-todoor and call himself a representative of jesus christ. He will believe it....cuz otherwise he will kill himself. And he will be told to be patient, that he must continue so that you will return to the truth. He will be told how regardless of your unfaithfulness he MUST get married in the temple. Too bad your stiff necked unrighteousness means that you will sit outside while he marrys his believing mormon wife with her believing extended family. You will be invited to your grandchild's blessing, but your husband won't be allowe to stand in the circle. Every holiday, birthday, vacation will be used to remind you that you need to repent. Your son will sit there with that smug mormon look that comes from KNOWING that they are right and that god has chosen them over you.
But you're right. Your kid needs friends. Too bad, you are willing to let him have the kind of friends who think you are a fool for leaving. Remember, his "friends" are the ones who will tell him the truth now that you are no longer worthy of knowing what that truth is.
Ya know...I hear the Nazi party had a pretty well organized youth program too. I just can't remember many Jewish parents who were willing to sign their kids up for it. Not like you, oh no, you KNOW what the cult is doing and are letting it happen.
No one who is familiar with the tactics the mormon church uses can say that this will not turn out poorly. Are you really so cowardly are do you just not care? Is there so much distance between you and your son that you can't be bothered to rescue him from something that will suck the very life out of him. Just buy the kid heroin.....its faster and the result is the same.
|Subject:||The first thing|
|Date:||Jul 07 14:04|
|that came to my mind was to tell you to remind them of the Commandment: "Honor thy Father and thy Mother."|
|Subject:||You should move away.|
|Date:||Jul 07 14:13|
|Move to a place where there are a lot less mormons. Anywhere out of the corridor would do just fine.|
|Date:||Jul 07 14:17|
|I appreciate you wanting to let your kids have a
choice. But that doesn't seem to be working out, does it?
I think it's time for plan B: No one in the family attends church.
Or you can tell them that the price of admission is that they stop behaving like arrogant little brats. You can decide on a week by week basis.
The weeks that they're nice, they go.
The weeks that they give you shit, they can stay home.
|Subject:||My knee jerk reaction to your post was, you need to get them a counselor|
|Date:||Jul 07 14:21|
|But, after thinking about what I would do if I were in
your shoes I think the first thing to do is get them out of the church. The
church is the source of the problem so remove them first. It won't be easy
it there going to be some bad feelings just be prepared for it. Then get
them some counseling from a never mo.
Always remember one thing, you are still their mother and as a parent you are responsible for raising your kids the way you see fit. Parent/Children relationships and families are NOT a democracy. Take control now, the sooner you do it the better.
|Subject:||First, you can stop helping her pack for girls' camp! You are enabling hateful behavior!|
|Date:||Jul 07 14:35|
|Why would you be helping/supporting that? I'm assuming
it co$t money, right? Who paid for it? You?
Let me get this straight... she'll go off with other nasty little Mini-Morgs and sigh about how horrible her apostate parents are, and she will be encouraged to disobey and disrespect you by this CULT! And you are not only allowing this, you are encouraging and helping it??
You need to be the boss. When they grow up and are totally SELF-SUPPORTING, that is when they can pick their religion. In the meantime they will HAVE to play your way. The one to pay gets to dictate the way to play! Who's the parent here?
Oh, sure, they will piss and moan and cry persecution. Let 'em. Remind them that legally you DO have the say-so, NOT them. Just as TBM parents can and do force their UNwilling kids to go to church!
Yeah, lurkers, TBMs and other folks, now is your cue to tell me I'm an old skank who never had kids and I don't know what I'm talking about, and how can I be so presumptuous as to give advice. Well, in the words of the great Sam Levinson: You don't have to be in Who's Who to know what's what!
~Doxi, having One of Those Days!
|Subject:||Re: Arrogant Mormon Youth|
|Date:||Jul 07 14:42|
|I have some advise: just give you're kids all your reasons for leaving and ask them to sincerely ponder what you're saying. Tell them that you love them and that you want them to be happy. Say that they need to stop taking everything said by mormons for granted.|
|Subject:||You spent 15 years engraining Mormonism in your kids . .|
|Date:||Jul 07 15:12|
|set them up in a system where their entire world is
the LDS church, taught them to be judgmental of non-Mormons (or at least
stood idly by while others did), won't level with them on why you've left,
and expect everything to be resolved in three weeks?
Makes perfect sense.
Good luck repairing your relationship with the children you've raised who you now refer to as "little morgbots."
|Subject:||Actually, the kids ARE little morgbots.|
|Date:||Jul 07 15:20|
|And I don't see anyone expecting them to to get over
it in three weeks.
I'm placing blame where blame is due. That is on the kids who are being rude and on their friends and church leaders who are encouraging the rudeness.
The parents have stopped being mormon now seem ready to do what they must to solve the problems.
|Subject:||Nonsense. The kids have brains.|
|Date:||Jul 07 17:25|
|Just like their siblings. EVERY parent on earth has
had to adjust their parenting practices when kids react in new unacceptable
They sneak cookies before dinner after never doing it before? The parents devise consequences.
They refuse to go to bed on time? Different consequences.
They let their homework slide? The lose TV and phone privileges until they bring up their grades.
They're rude and defiant over mormonism? Their parents sit them down, give them copious info, and don't let them attend if they don't improve their manners.
That's how it works. Telling parents that things are hopeless, or their fault, or that kids can't change is pointless, destructive, and inaccurate.
|Subject:||From one of the younger people ont he board|
|Date:||Jul 07 15:34|
|From the perspective of one of the youngest members of
this board (20), I'd love to answer your question. I am also in the midst of
a psychology BA with an emphasis on child and teenage development.
Telling your kids "no" is only going to cause more problems. It will affirm to them that you are being the terrible apostate parents that their peers and teachers are telling them you are. Yes, you are the parent and yes you do need to gain control, however, gaining control through force is only going to backfire as they are teenagers and are quite blind to the real world.
I think you need to sit your kids down and have a heart to heart about the church. Explain to them that you have made your choice based on a, b, and c. You need to be honest and open with them. Show them the videos of the temple ceremonies. Show them the quotes of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. Pull up the three different versions of the first vision and have them read and compare. Explain to them that you will respect their right to attend the church of their choice only if they respect your right to be the parent. I do not agree with some of the posters on here telling you to immediately pull them out of the church. Yes the church is a cult, yes they are underaged, yes they are being terrible Mormon kids. BUT the problem is if you tell them no, they're only going to cling harder to the doctrine of the church. Sitting them down as equals (even though they are not) and informing them of your reasons and other people's reasons for leaving will be more useful.
Then inform them that you have made your choice and that they do not have a right to be disrespectful towards your choices; you are the adult and they are the kid. They should also only be allowed to attend church if they also attend family outings and act respectfully towards your entire family. Take away church "privileges" if they do not treat you respectfully.
Please don't just tell them no, they can't go. It's only going to make things worse. I've seen this happen time and time again with friend's of mine whose parents have left. All it does is give them a stronger conviction of the church and more determination to bring their parents to the "light".
I really, really wish that you didn't have to go through this. But I feel that if you inform them of the things that made you leave, you may be pleasantly surprised when they also decide to leave. They just need to be informed of the problems with the church. Please feel free to email me if you need any more help. I'd love to help.
|Subject:||From one of the other young people on the board. (25)|
|Date:||Jul 07 17:48|
|Excellent suggestion, Tiff. Telling teens "no" makes
them balk at the idea that they're still "kids" and can be told what to do.
(And we remember...we were teens not too long ago.) But if you treat them
like they can make an informed decision, they will respect YOUR decisions
more. Remember: if you can get them to step back and look at the morg as an
outsider, they won't see it the same way.
It's like the nursery rhyme. About 2 years ago I decided to step back and look at TSCC, and immediately realized, "WTF!? I've been living in a SHOE!"
|Subject:||From one of the older people on the board|
|Date:||Jul 07 17:24|
|I totally agree with Tiff. Mark and I went through this with our own kids. Our son kept going for a while, our daughter didn't. Eventually our son quit going on his own. I personally feel that he needed to make that decision himself. Otherwise the LDS would have had the perfect case against us. What teenager doesn't want an excuse to disobey his parents at some point or other? Set ground rules. If they are disrespectful, ground them as you have, from all activities, including church. And, by all means tell them why you left and what you know about the doctrine, temple, etc. I also agree with the poster who suggested you move if possible. We did and it helped volumes. Good luck and thanks for sharing.|
|Subject:||Re: From one of the middlest people on the board|
|Date:||Jul 07 17:42|
|That ship already sailed.
Time to go rescue the kids, pull them out of the water, and tell them they can go sailing again when they are adults.
Satan is spot on on this one.
|Subject:||urgent message to Ex-Morgbot|
|Date:||Jul 07 17:25|
|It was a little abrupt, but you might want to pay very
close and special attention to Satan's little helper's
SLH is a PhD psych, has years and years of professional experience in adolescent behavior and has spent the last 30 or so years doing penance by counseling those most detrimentally affected by the Cult. Seriously, you need to consider what he, in a very direct way, has told you. He's got decades of professional experience on this very issue.
|Subject:||Step by Step Instructions to Free Your Children from the Church|
|Date:||Jul 07 17:41|
|Author:||Wondering No More|
|My wife and I went from full activity (Young Woman's
President, Elder's Quorum President) to total withdrawal about 5-6 years
ago. At that time, we had a son (12yrs), another son (10 yrs), a daughter (8
yrs), and another son (5 yrs).
The final straw for us was the very observation that you made in your OP: The church cultivates very arrogant children who grow into very arrogant adults. Before our break, the final straw was when we began to notice how arrogant and judgmental our own children were becoming. They would say snide things whenever we saw someone smoking, or drinking coffee.
You are free to totally disregard my advice. Here goes:
1) STOP ALL MORMON CHURCH PARTICIPATION: You immediately stop your children from ALL participation in mormon church. You let them know they will be able to attend when they are adults and no longer dependent on your support. There can be no wishy-washyness here. The mormon church harms children. Why would you give the mormon church access to your children? Why would you give the mormon church opportunity to undermine you and your husband?
2) BE FIRM: Prepare yourself for their tantrums. It will pass.
3) REMAKE SUNDAYS INTO A FAMILY DAY: Start making Sundays your family day. Do whatever sabbath breaking you need to do to make it a fun and enjoyable day. Your older kids will pout at first, but it won't be long before they realize that your old Sundays used to suck and your new Sundays rock!
4) LOVE: There must be an increase of love toward your children. They must understand that your love for them is unshakable and in no way tied to your former belief system. This must be real. There is no fake it till you make it, where love is concerned. They have to know that this is real, your future relationship depends on it. If your relationship has not been the best over the years with your children, now is the time to make this important and permanent change. Unfortunately for many, the avoidance of real emotional connection and the problems that are created will be exacerbated and will require an emotional purge before a new foundation can be started. Only real love from your true self will pull them through this damnable mess.
5) HONESTY: This is crucial for any close relationship to survive the crisis of unbelief. I believe that the unbeliever has an obligation to those they love, to be honest with their thoughts and feelings about the new state of belief. By so doing, I believe that this is a two way street where both points of view are open for discussion. For example, we sat our children down and told them that I no longer believed in Mormonism. We told them that we believe the Book of Mormon was made up, and that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God. We told them that we believed in God, just not Joseph Smith’s church. My children ranged from 5yrs to 12yrs, so we obviously tailored this discussion to their understanding. We then listened to their concerns and hugged them through some of their tears. Children are not stupid, and they deserve our honesty.
A few years later when my youngest son turned 8 and asked me about his baptism, I told him that I would not be baptizing him and that he would have to wait until he was 18 to make that decision. I then took this as another opportunity to re-clarify my position about Joseph Smith and Mormonism in general. Little events like this have over time cleared our children's thinking on this matter. They still struggle from time-to-time as they try to find their place in this new post Mormon world, but they have made fabulous progress. I believe similar situations would prove helpful for teenage children as well.
Part of being honest is letting them know that there is no chance for your belief to ever return. No amount of reading scriptures, praying or spinning around in a circle while chanting “the Book of Mormon is true,” is going to make you a believer again.
Through this new honesty, a consistent theme of encouragement for them to seek out the truth must be maintained. I don’t mean demanding they “see it your way” but giving them encouragement for asking questions and personal study. By asking questions and explaining doctrinal and historical conundrums, seeds for further inquiry are planted. If a child refuses to listen to these questions and receive encouragement, they are not interested in having an open and honest relationship with you. They want you to be someone or something you are not. Take that as a heads-up to building more trust and love in your relationship. Consistency, consistency, consistency. They must understand that you are not going to go away. They must understand you love them too much for them to ignore you and your new position. Can one compromise on this? Yes, but at the price of deeper intimacy and honesty.
6) BOUNDARIES: Too often I have read on this board where a TBM spouse will control and lead the unbelieving spouse around by the nose if they do not submit to their demands concerning Mormonism. This is a clear example of the TBM spouse setting the boundaries for both parties without the consent of the other spouse. Likewise, there must be clear boundaries set for the parent/child relationship. You and your husband must set those boundaries for your relationship with your children. I believe that the newly awoken parent can often feel shame, fear and worry to the extent that they submit to whatever demands the TBM children demand. This is not healthy for both parties. It retards love, honesty, intimacy and growth.
If your are firm on the setting of healthy boundaries, then your children will soon learn that coercion, guilt, manipulation and other cult tactics to bring conformity and submission simply have no power or influence over you. You and your husband must now, more than ever, act as adults, and adults have to set boundaries. You may experience screaming, pouting, yelling, insults and other childish behavior, but boundaries must be set and continually enforced by the adult in the relationship. If you don’t do this, you will be back here at the board telling us all how your children just do not respect you and your position for the hundredth time. In other words, this is going to take courage and commitment, things we all find hard to muster from time to time.
7) SUMMARY: Are these steps a cure to the mind control of Mormonism? For me and my family the answer is a resounding YES. It also appears that these elements were present in the relationship dynamics of many who successfully freed their loved ones from Mormonism.
Wondering No More