|Subject:||Riding in cars with TBMs [Mormons]...|
|Date:||Mar 28 12:54|
|I was trying to explain to my nevermo, Utah-transplant husband why
my TBM sister doesn't like to drive the 20 miles to our house. I said that unless driving
conditions were perfect (no traffic, bad weather, or construction) she definitely wouldn't
take the freeway and probably just wouldn't come at all.
Then I noticed similarities between her and my most TBM friends when they were young women. One friend decided not to drive from Orem to Salt Lake for a party because the spirit had given her a feeling that something bad would happen on the road. Another friend was driving a few of us to my house on our last day of high school. We were about 2 miles from my house when she said the car was acting strange and she stopped and prayed aloud that we would get to my house safely.
My theory is that as young (teens and 20's) TBM women, they feel that life is big and scary and beyond their control. This nameless dread was one of the first things I realized that I couldn't stand about the church.
So my question to you is, is this normal young woman behavior, or linked somehow to the teachings/culture of The Church?
|Subject:||Re: Riding in cars with TBMs...|
|Date:||Mar 28 15:24|
|I would attribute this to being forced to sit through too many Sunday evening firesides (followed by Kool-aid and stale cookies). Do they even use the term "fireside" anymore for such meetings? That is where I heard all my growing up stories about the "still-small-voice" warning of impeding danger. Mostly RM's or GA's recounting their miraculous stories. After awhile it becomes only natural to be afraid to get up in the morning.|
|Subject:||endless fears were passed to me|
|Date:||Mar 28 16:30|
|by several young women fearful they would get into
trouble whilst driving somewhere. main fears were
abduction by some man. cell phones were selling
aplenty with just this reason in mind for women in utha
|Subject:||At the core of Mormonism...|
|Date:||Mar 28 16:30|
|...and some other religions is the idea that you can't cope with life all by yourself. You need the constant protection and guidance of invisible friends. The danger of that is followers may come to believe you they're powerless and incompetent, which sort of fulfills the prophesy.|
|Subject:||In a religion where every feeling...|
|Date:||Mar 28 16:44|
|...might just be a prompting of the Spirit, nagging doubts become
In December, my mother planned a huge bridal shower for my brother's fiancee. Mom planned the whole thing around for the certain Saturday when my TBM grandma said she'd fly out to be there.
On the Friday morning before the party, however, TBM grandma went to the temple. In the Celestial Room, God gave her a special feeling when she thought about staying home.
Grandma called Mom that afternoon and told her that the Spirit had prompted her NOT to fly out. The Spirit had told her to stay home instead. She cancelled her ticket, the ticket from DC that my mom had paid for! My mother was so mad! "That's not what the Temple is for," my mother said. "You don't go to the Celestial Room to ask Heavenly Father if you should take a plane to see your own family!"
Promptings of the Spirit! Who can argue with that?
|Subject:||TBM girls and fear...(bad word)|
|Date:||Mar 28 17:17|
|I have an anxiety disorder. I blame it squarely on the fact that I
was raised on fear. Fear of Satan, Fear of authority, Fear of any "bad" feeling
might be a warning from the Holy Ghost, Fear that I might not be a good little girl.
Standing up for myself, asking for what I need and want--those are major battles for me.
I have gotten over my phobia of driving in any sort of traffic, by sheer willpower and just doing it over and over again. I finally realized that it was my own fear talking to me, not any "spirit." And I am only able to function and get on with my life by IGNORING that "still small voice."
Even now as a seemingly confident adult mother, I STILL have moments of complete and utterly absurd panic. Even though I know the mormon church isn't true, the idea of opposing my family, friends and entire culture leaves me terrified and shaking.
But I did it anyway. It was the hardest thing I have ever done. I battle fear every single day of life and it is that Fucking churches fault.
|Date:||Mar 28 17:43|
|Reminds me of my mom...whenever she didn't want me to to go
somewhere, she would get a "bad feeling." Well that was the end of the
discussion. I didn't get out much as you can imagine. I had to go to a local college--not
because of money, but because my mom had a "bad feeling" that something bad
would happen if I went away. The only acceptable way for a girl to escape was by marriage
or on a mission. (No bad feelings there)
Every little thing in our family had a superstition to go with it. If you didn't say the blessing on the food, you would get food poisoning. If you didn't keep up on tithing, you'd either get killed and not have the chance or else have financial ruin.
Garments? Oh---just think of all the horrible things that might befall you if you didn't have them on at all times! Be careful in the shower. Swimming could be dangerous. (The Satan ruling the water was a biggie too)
Oh and bad things happened if you broke the Sabbath---maybe a theater fire? Or a car accident?
And there are always examples of all these calamities if you look for them. So the fear was always reinforced.
I got this in my family, but also from friends. So I know they were hearing the same things in their Utah TBM homes. Once a group of us got so convinced that it was the second coming. (we had been watching the moon for signs of red for weeks) that we worked ourselves into a terror and could not get out of the bed--which we had convinced ourselves was the safe spot.
We told Mo Urban legends and end of the world stories like normal kids tell ghost stories. But the scary thing is we thought they were real---and our trusted grown upsreinforced the fear!
Sounds crazy, I know, But this was normal growing up in 1970's Utah Valley.
It is no wonder it is so hard to leave when you grow up with fear of everything. I find myself being fearful when there is no logical reason at all and I have to talk myself out of it. Hang in there, Girl.
|Subject:||Re: TBM girls and fear...(bad word)|
|Date:||Mar 28 17:56|
|Yup, yup and yup! :) I hear that, Girl and Lizzie. My father had a profound anxiety disorder (I now know) and that, together with the Church's crazy superstitions, just about did me in. Every "funny feeling" was associated with impending doom. How stupid is that?! Why isn't it just as likely the "still small voice" (if there were such a thing) would herald wonderful and joyful things to come?? Crap. What a bunch of raving lunatics they're training.|
|Subject:||Nature, or nurture|
|Date:||Mar 28 18:22|
|Are mental disorders created?, or inherent?
Many people have your fears, but have no "church" to blame.
Is it possible the disorder is inherent, and the "F***ing" church just "hit the spot" rather than creating it? (Like a dentist hitting a live nerve).
Just a thought to consider for however long you'd like.
|Subject:||Considered it, rejected it!|
|Date:||Mar 28 18:26|
|If you're asking whether people outside the church have anxiety disorders, of course. That's not the issue. And no reputable scientist would choose between "nature" and "nurture" -- they are clearly and repeatedly demonstrated to work in concert to create individual traits. Can anxiety disorders be created in otherwise anxiety-free individuals? You betcha! And the "one true church" has a HUGE financial incentive to create them in as many members as possible. Never mind the control factor. Thanks for playing, though.|
|Subject:||Ooh, ooh, I'll play|
|Date:||Mar 28 18:36|
|I can only speak for myself on this so...take it for what it's
I can see where you're coming from. When I read a girl and Lizzy's posts I said uh-huh, yep that's me, I can relate. My dad is a big one for this. He's afraid of everything. I don't understand why. He's a 2nd degree black belt and a former weight lifting champion but he refuses to go out after dark. He instilled a lot of fear in his kids or maybe it was passed on or both. Anyway, the church does employ that fear factor whether you'd like to believe it or not. For me, since I had it instilled early on and then had it reinforced by the church I'd have to say it was both. The nerve was there and the church later hit it with the drill. But, that's just my experience and it takes a lot of people to make the world go 'round.
Oh, and before you ask who do I blame? I blame no one. Fear is just as much a part of life as any other emotion. Some emotions just beg for more attention.
|Subject:||Re: Nature, or nurture|
|Date:||Mar 28 18:39|
|Of course, there is a genetic component. I am quite sure that my
mother had an anxiety disorder also. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the first TBM
fool duped into joining 5 generations ago didn't have a tendency to irrational fear. Why
else would someone join a wacky church?
That said...anyone who has an inherited disposition to inherit an anxiety disorder and is spoonfed and forcefed fear daily for a lifetime will probably have the disorder manifest. Especially when that fear comes from parents and teachers and EVERYONE in his or her life who is trusted.
|Date:||Mar 28 18:42|
|"Why else would someone join a wacky church?" HA! I'm still cracking up over that one. :) I think you make an excellent point, Girl. Several of them, actually! I'm thinking a little Xanax in the sacrament water might be a good thing...|
|Date:||Mar 28 19:12|
|I do agree that there is definately a hereditary factor. My mom is
an undiagnosed agoraphophic, I think. She rarely goes anywhere. She shops with one of her
daughters weekly, doesn't drive, doesn't even go to church unless a family member is
having an occasion. Has only been to the temple once---her marriage. Yet, she is a TBM
through and through.
Funny story--she is a big believer in calling in people's names for temple rolls. When I was TBM, she used to call and ask me to put in names (of wayward siblings etc)for her when I went. Then she found out about the phone in thing. She even told me that she asked how often you need to call in to keep something on the prayer roll at all times. Then she'd call and ask me to call also--so the names would be doubled! The other day, I was looking for an address in her address book and what did I find? The phone number for every temple from Manti to SLC. Apparently my name is listed at least once (I still have TBM siblings!) in not one, but several temples. Isn't that special?
Anyway, back to the heredity thing. Out of 7 siblings, I know of 4 of us that have been or are on medication for anxiety and or depression. At least I know my fears are irrational and I am learning to deal with them. I am determined not to pass on this legacy to my children!
|Subject:||keep up the good work!|
|Date:||Mar 28 23:21|
|I too suffer from depression/anxiety. I know I inherited the
predispostion from both sides of my family. But I think I would be spiraling into the
Black Hole daily if I were still in the church. Constantly thinking about pre-existence,
afterlife, and anything BUT my own self on this planet in the here and now was more than
my brain could wrap itself around.
And even though it will always be a one-day-at-a-time battle, at least now it feels like something I can win. :)
|Date:||Mar 28 18:15|
|One of the girls' favorite shows is fear factor. But thats a
Any advertising exec will tell you that if you can't get customers you have to create customers. How do you do that you ask? By making them want to buy what you are selling. The church and religion in general is selling salvation from sin. Sin that was created by rules they made. So if we can't get you with the promise of salvation how about we scare you into believeing?
You got to use all the angles if you want to beat your competitors. The Corporation of the President is a slick money making operation, why do you think is ti packaged so well? Of course the leadership does nothing to stem the growth of faith promoting rumors.
Stay up late,
|Subject:||The Monster - minor rant|
|Date:||Mar 28 18:32|
I LOVE knowing there isn't possibly anything out there that can hurt me more than I can hurt myself.
The monster isn't under the bed or in the closet, it is there when you look in the mirror, staring back at you.
It is a terrible disservice for people to be taught that others are wicked, means, bad, wanting to hurt them, to take from them. It is STUPID. My unmarried younger sister hooks her boat to the back of her truck and drives across country if she feels like it. She flys to Italy for the weekend if she feels like it. She KNOWS (haha part of the 'advantage' of being a part of my family) that WE (meaning ourselves and the ones we love) are the most dangerous, and hurtful people in the world...but only if we love you. Sheesh, women get killed by the men who LOVE them, not by strangers. Back to sissy. Coming on 31 years old now, she is beautiful, vivacious, returned missionary, independently wealthy, college educated, BUT she is TOO way way way TOO independent and 'scary' (read assertive) for the 'men' in the Church....thus she is single.
|Date:||Mar 28 18:35|
|And the more you believe in "Satan" the more scared you
are! So more faithful = more fearful! Neat, huh?
Your sis sounds way cool. But five bucks says she doesn't last a lifetime in the church. Or else she changes to fit their expectations. Which would be way, way sadder...