Subject: Horses and FARMS
Date: Jul 28 22:07
Author: edy
Mail Address:

I was reading about horses in the Book of Mormon at the FARMS (Mormon apologetics group) website today. Sometimes FARMS is a real hoot. I love their shotgun approach. They throw out a half dozen conflicting theories using phrases like may have been, it is possible, may have applied, and on and on. This in the hopes that you will buy one of them and dismiss the others.

In the case of horses, this article proposes:
1- There were only a few and they died off.
2- They didn't die off, some survived until near the arrival of the Spaniards.
3- We haven't found their bones because they were not food animals. (They conveniently forget to mention there are no pictograph type images either.)
4- There never were horses, they mistakenly called tapirs horses.

Here are a couple choice clips to give you the flavor (emphasis added):
Small herds of animals in a limited region sometimes leave no archaeological remains.

Similarly, members of Lehi's family may have applied loanwords to certain animal species that they encountered for the first time in the New World, such as the Mesoamerican tapir. . .One could hardly fault Old World visitors to the New World for choosing to classify the Mesoamerican tapir as a horse or an ass, if that is what happened.
(Note the deception in using the word classify instead of identify.)

From the Book of Mormon, Ether 9:19
And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

We are supposed to believe the ancients created new words like curelom and cumom but they called the tapir a horse? What were the asses, rabbits?

I think I smell the manure and I definitely know where to find the horse's asses.

Subject: what a crock of manure!
Date: Jul 28 22:15
Author: PtLoma

> And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms.

Hmmm I wonder how they rode their tapirs: with Western saddles or English style? ;)

Subject: Huh?
Date: Jul 28 22:20
Author: Stray Mutt

No horse bones because they weren't "food animals"? What does that have to do with anything? Dead mammals leave bones, no matter how they died (assuming they weren't all ground to powder or something. Or is FARMS saying since dead horse were probably dumped in the jungle, and not in the areas that have been excavated, they just haven't found any horse bones?

Forgive me for not reading the FARMS article, but they make my head hurt.

Subject: Dr. Seuss and FARMS....
Date: Jul 28 22:30
Author: anon

A horse is a horse, of course of course...
A deer is not tapir, my dear...

unless you're Huge Nibbler then everything means anything any given year.

Elks and moose and mother goose could not have made a funnier notion,

than people stuck in bottles crossing the ocean.

Let's us bow and pray and wonder at the ever increasing proof

that the Book of Mormon is not just a spoof, goof, aloof paradoy of the

Ethan Smith book, View of the Hebrews.

No, no, and nay and nay, horses came and went and will come another day,

but until we find horse bones buried in one's backyard,

horses will be deers and deers will be tapirs and elk will stay the same.

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
Subject: Deep-fried horse meat
Date: Jul 29 02:24
Author: J. (not logged)
Mail Address:

how misleading of FARMS:
might i suggest a visit to one or two web sites which may open
their eyes?
"The demand for meat from goats has increased in some markets
of the southeastern USA, which has led to new marketing
opportunities for the small farmer/rancher. There has been an
increase in the influx of ethnic groups from areas of the world
where goat meat comprises a significant portion of the diet. In
addition, there has been an increase in the consumption of
"ethnic" foods as consumers explore and broaden their culinary
experiences. Goat meat is often served in specialty dishes
centered around festival or holiday events.
Although many Americans have an aversion to eating horse meat,
the horse meat industry is now rivaling the beef and pork
industries in the amounts of fresh meat shipped abroad. In 1994,
109,353 pounds of horse meat was shipped overseas. In Sweden
horse meat outsells lamb and mutton combined. It is also
commonly consumed in Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Germany,
Austria, and the Netherlands, but it is most popular in Belgium and

Subject: Only a few?
Date: Jul 29 00:05
Author: MMI
Mail Address:

They need to read the Book of Mormon again

Enos 1
[21] And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds, and flocks of all manner of cattle of every kind, and goats, and wild goats, and also many horses.

3 Nephi 6
[1] And now it came to pass that the people of the Nephites did all return to their own lands in the twenty and sixth year, every man, with his family, his flocks and his herds, his horses and his cattle, and all things whatsoever did belong unto them.

Sounds like more than just a few to me

Subject: Re: Only a few?
Date: Jul 29 00:47
Author: edy
Mail Address:

You notice that the B of M talks about
horses and cattle
horses and asses
cattle, goats, wild goats and horses

What kind of educated person would publish such drivel proposing that it was actually tapirs, not horses? It is too funny.

MMI wrote:
> Enos 1
> [21] And it came to pass that the people of Nephi did till the land, and raise all manner of grain, and of fruit, and flocks of herds. . .

By the way, what are flocks of herds? It makes sense only in the second quote:
> 3 Nephi 6:1
> . . . his flocks and his herds
I verified your quote, it actually says "flocks of herds". And this is a perfect book?

Subject: Good point. A flock of herds? Also everyone check out link
Date: Jul 29 01:07
Author: MMI
Mail Address:

Maybe thats like saying many large groups of animals? Pretty stupid way to phrase it. Plus why does it say flock of herds then flock of all manner of cattle, etc. Isnt that redundant or at least wordy? Why even say flocks of herds at all?

About the tapirs. For those who dont know what a tapir looks like check out this link and imagine a group of these things pulling a chariot into battle. Yeah right! Someone should paste together some photos of tapirs pulling a chariot and send it to cricket. ;)

Subject: FARMS people do not worship God. They worship the great
Date: Jul 29 01:00
Author: Ahab
Mail Address:

WHAT IF! Ultimately, every argument they advance is based on a great WHAT IF. At least the Mormon prophets pretend to have revelation. FARMS simply supplements or substitutes the revelations of prophets with WHAT IF arguments that are based only on speculation. The primary evidence supporting their great WHAT IF speculation fests is nothing more than their presumption that the Book of Mormon must be true.

Subject: Stanley in harness
Date: Jul 29 01:41
Author: J. (not logged)
Mail Address:

thanks for the link to pix of tapirs. there is a pic on the site of a tapir
actually in harness. i kid you not.
it's suggested that putting a tapir in harness is not advisable, btw.

Subject: Obviously, then, tapirs can be harnessed.
Date: Jul 29 01:53
Author: FARMS
Mail Address:

We never said that the chariot drivers could make the tapirs go in the direction the drivers wanted. But these mundane transportation problems were not deemed necessary to include in the Book of Mormon. When the harnessed tapirs failed to provide good transportation, they harnessed herds of rats. This too proved uneconomical in the end, but we have no reason not to believe that the Book of Mormon was referring to rats when it mentions "horses" because they were attempting a parallel functionality. Yeah, that's the ticket...parallel functionality.

Subject: LOL!
Date: Jul 29 01:59
Author: J. (not logged)
Mail Address:

but it surely may add to the BoM to include some of those stories
about wayward and uncontrollable tapir traveses with chariots in
tow and struggling men attempting to direct the trot.

Subject: Ah, yes. This was the great military weakness of the Nephites.
Date: Jul 29 02:58
Author: FARMS
Mail Address:

They poured much of their military budget into chariot development only to find, after building a fleet of several hundred thousand heavily armored chariots, that tapirs would not take orders. This was so embarrassing that Nephite record keepers adamantly refused to write about it on the golden plates.

Subject: The first paragraph almost put me into a hypnotic trance
Date: Jul 29 02:05
Author: Ex Lax Joe
Mail Address:

The 1st paragraph:
"The Book of Mormon mentions horses, yet these animals seem not to have been known to native Americans who greeted the Spaniards upon their arrival in the New World in the sixteenth century. Moreover, archaeological evidence for the presence of the horse in the pre-Columbian Americas is presently scant and inconclusive. How can this be explained? Careful consideration of this question begins with an examination of what the Book of Mormon says and does not say about horses."

First, the article admits that the BoM mentions horses, but there is no proof that horses existed in pre-columbian times. Then, the last sentence says that the possible explanation begins with an examination of the BoM. Talk about circular logic. "We can prove the BoM is true by quoting, or at least twisting the words of, the BoM."

How can people with so much obvious intelligence be so ignorant?

Ex Lax Joe
Subject: Re: horses and FARMS - Translation or Inspired

Text Date: Jul 29, 2002 11:26 Author: Beag

Regarding the 'loanword' arguement, I heard the same in regard to deer being referred to as horses. Then I realized that the BM is NOT a literal translation because JS did not know any form of Egyptian but was supposed to be guided by God in 'translating' the most perfect book in the world. HF would know the difference between horses and deer or horses and tapirs. To believe the 'loanword' arguement, one would have to believe that HF was willing to give JS an inaccurate word in his translation since the whole book was inspired. To get a good chuckle, reread some of the BM passages where horses appear such as the battles with the Nephite armies going into battle and replace 'horse' with 'deer' or 'tapir'. It brings a rather comical image to the story.