Subject: Of This I Am Tired
Date: Oct 16 17:46
Author: SLDrone

I Am Tired

We live in a world rife with superstition and mysticism. True thought and reason is so often replaced with the magic and folklore which makes up our world religions. Irrational dogma and doctrine is unexamined, unrefuted, and uncorrected. The thinking has been done by those with undisputed direct conduits to a higher power. God's thoughts are not our thoughts, how could we hope to understand or challenge? Compartmentalization becomes the byword as intelligence, research and honest thinking is set on it's head. Then public policy and the very social laws which govern our lives are forged by those who would rather decide the truth first and refute all evidence to the contrary as heresy. Who needs a president, a prime minister or a monarch when all we really need is for Granny Clampet to go back in the possum patch and whip us up a potion to solve our social ailments. As Sagan has so eloquently taught us, we live in a world haunted by demons, the Gods that fill the gaps of our understanding. Of that I am tired.

So we find otherwise intelligent thinking people defending and supporting superstitions. Often holding up as evidence the profound works of FARMS. If ever there was the antithesis of intellectual discovery it is this hideous organization of FARMS which follows carefully the edicts of Boyd Packer in knowing the truth first, and then promoting only the evidence to support that inerrant truth. All the while these FARMS "intellects", most of whom are on the payroll of a great self serving purveyor of superstition and metaphysical doctrine, ignore the obvious evidence to the contrary, or spin it into un unrecognizable conflagration of nonsense. Of that I am tired.

But when all the sophistry and dogmatic reasoning is stripped away, the truth will emerge in the minds of those willing to think critically and challenge the pompous authority of those that claim to know all truth. Let the honest evidence rise and the chips fall where truth places them, unhindered by irrational thought the gems of truth prevail. The most likely hypothesis when supported by the evidence is the most likely answer to the questions that trouble our thoughts. Did God place a perfect man and woman in a garden he'd prepared for them some mere 6,000 years ago with a convoluted plan that they should error and in that error condemn all mankind if not for the savior He would provide or did mankind evolve to it's current and vaunted state? Honest inquiry will lead to honest and unhindered evidence, a rational mind can devise a most likely theory or the evidence can be compartmentalized and rationalized to fit an irrational presumption. Of that I am tired.

Did a small band of Hebrew travelers some 2,600 years ago grow into a population of millions on the American Continent. Did they evolve quickly into to separate and distinct races, contending with one another in wars and armed with steel swords, chariots and horses whilst refreshing themselves with wheat and grapes? Did these factions fight a massive battle in a place called Cumorah where millions died leaving their battle instruments behind as a testament that they gave their lives defending their God, their families and their religion? Or perhaps this too is a fable spun in the mind of a charismatic opportunist. Certainly the archeological evidence will lead and honest researcher to the truth. Irrational belief passed of as unyielding faith seems the antithesis of truth.

Did a prophet called Abraham pen the truth as revealed to him by God, and though a Hebrew prophet writing in Egyptian hieroglyphics, then somehow conspire to hide his truths in the sarcophagus of a minor functionary of the Egyptian kingdom who lived some millennium later, to be discovered by a prophet some millennia later? Or did a religious charlatan just make that up? Again, honest review of the evidence will lead to the most likely truth of the matter.

Did a prophet called Joseph Smith really see the one true God and his Son and then restore the one true Church, or did he see angels, or a multitude of angels, or just hear a voice or see just God or just His son? Or did he just make that up and evolve his story over years into it's final and unquestionable version which we must accept as absolute truth in order to obtain spiritual salvation? Unbiased and thinking examination is again called for. Did this same prophet reveal the meaning of plates found in Kinderhook, or did his faithful and well meaning personal secretary just make that up and lie? What is the most likely answer? We can never know the truth of these things, but we can devise the most likely hypothesis and then act according to the most likely.

We live in a world of scientific illiteracy. Superstition and pseudo science reign supreme, the anecdotal mythology the engine of our demise. Religion is the antithesis of progress and is as preposterous today as it was millennia ago. The pope of today opposes the scientific research of the fetal stem cells, just as his predecessor opposed any fact refuting man and earth as the center of the universe. Scientific and honest progress is thwarted in that it dares to challenge to doctrine of the dishonest and uninterested. The clouds of an unseen and oft unfathomable god fill the minds of men, darkness gathers, ignorance roars with a deafening thunder, the demons awake. Of this I am tired.

Subject: This is the most I have ever seen you say, SLDrone!
Date: Oct 16 18:16
Author: Nightingale
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And wow! Very well said, indeed. I'd like to read you more often.

I'm in the middle of Sagan's DHW right now. I note his lament about pseudo science and scientific illiteracy, as well as pseudo spirituality.

The clouds of an unseen and oft unfathomable god fill the minds of men, darkness gathers, ignorance roars with a deafening thunder, the demons awake. Of this I am tired.

Poetic and poignant and thought-provoking. Thanks.

"There's so much I don't know about astrophysics. I wish I'd read that book by that wheelchair guy."
Homer Simpson

Subject: Well said!
Date: Oct 16 18:22
Author: New Girl
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With your permission, I'd like to print this and distribute to friends...

Subject: then rest, my friend and find in your rest your hope...
Date: Oct 16 18:45
Author: PRAVDA
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for of this I am hopeful:

No amount of oppresion of superstition will ever stop the power of human lazyness. Is it better to walk on bare feet and multiple blisters or to fly first class? Our yearning for comfort cries out: fly! But to fly superstition offers no working methods. Only science will do.

Do we prefer hunting our meals by hurling rocks at the local edible fauna or shall we create means for steady production, storage and distribution of food, so we can have a pizza delivered to our doorstep any day and at any hour? We all cry in unison for the latter. Does prayer make it so? No, only true knowledge of the laws of nature can accomplish it.

Shall we choose a hole in the ground which may be already occupied by a predator of larger size than us as a dwelling or a cozy apartment with wall-to-wall carpeting, automated kitchen, microwave, central heating and air conditioning and private elevator access? Only a few would request the first one, but will chants and incantations produce the second out of thin air? Unlikely.

So my hope rests in the desire for men to become the ultimate cosmic couch potatoes, sitting in the middle of space with a remote control to the universes. Such is our destiny, to become Gods of rest and self-gratification. Only true lovers of luxurious comfort have true love and compassion for their fellow men. Only they have the motivation to do what it takes to bring about millennia of peaceful bliss. And that's most of us.

Let's raise our cup in honor of Epicurus and continue to advance science to the ultimate goal: the further widening of our well-cushioned rear ends.

Subject: profound enuf! :) nt
Date: Oct 16 20:48
Author: :)
Mail Address:


Subject: Re: Amen...
Date: Oct 16 21:06
Author: SD
Mail Address:

and we always appreciate your visits. Too infrequent they are, but they are always profound.

Subject: Hinkley Doesn't Understand Why
Date: Oct 16 21:37
Author: Not So TBM
Mail Address:

While promoting the Book of Mormon in one of his conferance talks, President Hinkley stated that he didn't understand why the Christian world did not accept the Book of Mormon. "I would think they would be looking for any evidence they could find that supports Jesus Christ's ministry on earth", he said.

Another example of just looking for evidence that supports your beliefs. Ofcourse the christians would ignore the Book of Mormon - it doesn't support their beliefs. Ofcourse President Hinkley would love the Book of Mormon - it supports his beliefs.

Subject: Very well written, but partial and incomplete...
Date: Oct 16 22:20
Author: Lao Tsu
Mail Address:

I agree that religion embraces much fraud, superstition, and intolerance. It has been responsible for all manner of bigotry, persecution and outright stupidity. I know; I live in the bible belt.

On the other hand, it has fostered an amazing group of volunteers, truth seekers and peace makers. I donate time for the habitat for humanity - founded by Christians. We just completed the 1000th house in our community. Mother Teresa. Jimmy Carter, sunday school teacher and nobel prize recipient. Mahtma Gandhi and so many others...

As exmos, we've been burned by a pseduo religion. A religion that has distorted spiritual realties and perverted religous faith from devotion to God to devotion to the Church. Instead of ministering we administrated. We standardized and fossilized truth; established an oppressive ecclesiastical authority; created the aristocratic "chosen-people" attitude; fostered false and exaggerated ideas of sacredness; a cup of coffee became a sin!

But I believe that the rejection of religion and the spritual realm is a mistake that we easily make as we leave the darkened cave or mormonism for the light and adventure of our own spiritual adventure. In doing so, our greatest spiritual jeopardy consists in partial progress, the predicament of unfinished growth: forsaking the primitive external religions of fear without immediately grasping the inner religion of love.

No matter what social and economic disasters await us in the future, religion is genuine and worth while if it creates an experience in which the sovereignty of truth, beauty, and goodness prevails, for such is the true spiritual concept of supreme reality. And through love and worship this becomes meaningful as fellowship with man and sonship with God.

Lao Tsu, the Chinese mystic, taught 2,500 years ago: That faith in the Absolute God is the source of that divine energy which will remake the world, and by which man ascends to spiritual union with Tao, the Eternal Deity and Creator Absolute of the universes.

Subject: Re: Lao Tze...
Date: Oct 16 22:28
Author: SD
Mail Address:

also said "The Still is the Lord of the Restless" I like my restless heart, and I'll never sacrifice it to the "Still" of religion again.

Subject: Hear, hear! It's gratifying to know that the "system" produced
Date: Oct 17 11:39
Author: bored
Mail Address:

a man such as Jimmy Carter,who continues to redefine himself,instead of being content to rest on his post-presidential laurels. Whenever I feel overwhelmed by superstition, I lay down the Carl Sagan and pick up the Joseph Campbell, to restore my tolerance and good humor, in the face of seemingly overwhelming intolerance and fear.

Subject: My mom sent me some FARMS material this week.
Date: Oct 16 22:47
Author: alex
Mail Address:

My mom sent me some FARMS material this week. I noticed that the articles used all sorts of adjectives to describe the ANTI-Mormon literature they were reviewing rather than focus on the facts.

In the 2nd paragraph of this essay of yours SLDrone you used the phrase "this hideous organization of FARMS". Personally I think you should drop the word "hideous" and just say "this organization of FARMS". Frankly I think that most truthseekers are capable themselves as individuals to decide for themselves what adjectives they feel best describes FARMS.

Other than that I think this essay well-describes my own personal thoughts on the TBMisms that I'm also tired of dealing with. A while back I watched the movie MATRIX. Gosh sometimes I wish I would've taken that BLUE PILL. But I took the RED PILL and welcome to the truth and realities of life.

Subject: So tell me, sldrone
Date: Oct 16 23:29
Author: disgusted with antis
Mail Address:

Since you are ever so philosophical, perhaps you can tell us what the ultimate truth is.

You can't. You don't know. And that particular naked truth is what is getting you down.

You should be tired. It is quite exhausting chasing down truth bridges and then burning them, only to discover another truth bridge right in front of you. Until you realize that the truth bridge is just an illusion and all that burning has been singing your own hair.

Subject: The Ultimate Truth just might be...
Date: Oct 16 23:53
Author: Pen
Mail Address:

...that there IS no Ultimate Truth.

Religion has always been grasping at straws. It's supposed to be a way for people to come together, and share thoughts and emotions. Instead, organized religion seems to be a way for weak-minded individuals to band together, so that they don't have to think for themselves. Like all mob mentalities, organized religion gets out of hand quickly, and causes more pain than the other option.

Subject: You should spend more time listening...
Date: Oct 17 10:44
Author: Flew the Coop
Mail Address:

on this board and less time shooting off with the mouth. Your comments are good but not meant for the likes of SLDrone, rather they are more suited for your religionist friends.

Subject: the real danger Mr. disgusted
Date: Oct 17 00:51
Author: SLDrone

The real danger my friend is not the admission of ignorance, of which I freely confess, but the illusion of knowledge.

I suspect the "ultimate truth" you seek would be difficult for you to accept. So there you stay mired in your superstitious traditions, lashing out at those that challenge you and closed to the possibilities. After all you already have your "ultimate truth", and in it I wish you great happiness. I hope Santa brings you all that you hope for this year.

Subject: Re: So tell me, sldrone
Date: Oct 17 10:43
Author: Gary
Mail Address:

Defenders of Mormonism seem to relish is being flattered by the so-called knowledge of the "true church of Christ."

Maybe Mormonism is really God's elected church. I have actually considered the real possibility. However, if God works with people who marry and have sex with young teenage girls, then I wonder more about this God than any prophet. Why would God use young girls to satisfy the religious and sexual desires of a man? That is the real question. The question is not just about whether the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham are sripture as claimed, but whether the "called prophet" for the restoration is an ethical man. Study Joseph Smith and what he and other faithful leaders of his time say and do and the question again begs to be answered.

Why did Joesph Smith marry young girls at the age of 14 years old? What kind of God would do this?

If you believe in such a God, I truly feel sorry for you.


Subject: Truth rests in Science. One should not be afraid to say, "I don't know."
Date: Oct 17 11:07
Author: akuten
Mail Address:


Subject: Fallacy alerts!!! ;)
Date: Oct 17 13:46
Author: Happy_Heretic
Mail Address:

disgusted with antis wrote:
> Since you are ever so philosophical, perhaps you can tell us what the ultimate truth is.

SLDrone has never indicated that he knows any "ulitmate" truth. This is a straw-man argument. Try again please.

> You can't. You don't know. And that particular naked truth is what is getting you down.

Nice psycho-analysis. Would you mind providing your credentials please.

> You should be tired. It is quite exhausting chasing down truth bridges and then burning them, only to discover another truth bridge right in front of you. Until you realize that the truth bridge is just an illusion and all that burning has been singing your own hair.

This is blatant question-begging. If your assertion is true, then it proves itself false (If truth can't be known, then your "truth" can't be known to be true). The illusion is your own. I, for one, was moved by SLDrone's depth and illuminating prose.

Go away now.


Subject: Battle for the Heavens - Galileo - PBS
Date: Oct 16 23:46
Author: ruldx2
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PBS will be airing Battle for the Heavens, recounting Galileo's triumph, end of October; check local listings.

What can we learn from that piece of history? As sldrone said, truth eventually prevails, in compartments. But religion will probably always survive too, as long as there are questions too hard for science to answer and as long as there are people looking for a easy, feel-good answers to fill the void.

Not that that's any excuse to stop trying to further education of the superstitious.

Subject: Knowing "ultimate truth" is not a prerequisite for determining error
Date: Oct 17 01:16
Author: Nightingale
Mail Address:

IOW, one does not need to have determined "ultimate truth" (who would decide what that is anyway?) in order to discover and expose error. Extreme critics so often figure that you have no right to point out error unless you can also point to ultimate truth. It is a mistake to so easily dismiss alternative viewpoints, although I guess that's a convenient defence mechanism.

Subject: Nice way of summing up the ideas behind The Demon-Haunted World n/t
Date: Oct 17 11:06
Author: akuten
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