|Subject:||"Without the Gospel I would be completely lost"|
|Date:||Oct 26 01:52 2002|
|How often in Sacrament Meeting (especially F & T Meeting) did
you hear people say something like "without the Gospel I would be completely
lost?" Did you ever say that yourself?
When people say it, how much do they really believe it?
Could this notion of being "completely lost" without the gospel be a reason there are so many New Order Mormons (people who know it's not true but are too scared of something to leave)?
Two things comes to mind when I hear that phrase now from my TBM family members. First, do they seriously think non-members are "completely lost" because they don't know about or don't accept Mormonism? How arrogant and condecending to the world that is. And second, doesn't that kind of fear sound like something from an abusive relationship, where the wife beater says "you're nothing without me, you'll be completely lost without me."
Is it just flattery, or do Mormons really mean it when they say they can't live without the church (right or wrong)?
What's going on here?
|Subject:||Decon, I remember hearing one of my teenage friends say this...|
|Date:||Oct 26 02:01|
|and even as a TBM I thought it was weird. She was bearing her testimony about how if it weren't for "the church" she'd be doing drugs, sleeping around, etc. I thought, "No you wouldn't; you're a total prude." I think it's just part of the brainwashing. Make people think they can't live without it. At one point, on my way out, I told non-Mormon and even Mormon friends that I couldn't leave if I wanted to. It took me finding this site and getting some emotional support to realize that I could leave. And it's my one-year anniversary!|
|Subject:||I don't think they even think about what they are saying,|
|Date:||Oct 26 02:14|
|you become like a parrott mouthing off things you hear all the time.
To this day after 22 years not stepping inside a Mormon church. I could go in there and
spout all the words that would make me a Mormon and they would never know I was not,
because I know the language.
It is like kids saying the pledge of alligence every morning. they are not thinking about it at all . It is like saying the Lords prayer or the rosery, we mouth them but don't think about it. To be a part of a group you take on that groups way of expressing them selves.
Of course insulated Mormons do think that no one can live with out the Gospel because they are not allowed to be around other people so they make statements like that.
|Subject:||This scares the heck out of me|
|Date:||Oct 26 02:13|
|Author:||Ex Lax Joe|
|It kills me every day to see my family sucked in by the church's
false claims. To know that they can't live without it tears my heart out.
I've heard the phrase "I'd be lost without the church" used many times, but I never felt that way. Mostly I felt lost and out of place IN the church, and I couldn't pretend to believe any more. Maybe that's why I'm an exmo, and not a NOM.
IMO, new order mormon's are cop-outs. They enable and allow the abuse to occur and re-occur. I equate it to the nazi's in WWII who KNEW that atrocities were occuring, but "pretended" to not notice.
If a church allows, and even hides crimes, that church is held accountable. For example, the Catholic church hid the molestation of hundreds(or even thousands) of children, hoping the priests could repent or reform. Why shouldn't the mormon church be held accountable for the billions of dollars it's extorted from faithful members? If a church propogates a crime, it's hierarchy and top officials should be held accountable.
The mormon church's blackmail is easy to prove:
1) members can't reach the highest degree of heaven without performing several temple rites.
2) members can't enter the temple without being worthy.
3) a member can't be worthy of a temple recommend without paying a full tithe.
4) a full tithe is considered to be 10% of gross earnings.
5) the mormon church can't prove the fact that there even is a celestial kingdom.
6) therefore, the church is illegally extorting money from it's members.
Now that I think about it, the line is probably akin the words spoken by heroin junkies the world over: "without my fix I'd be completely lost."
Ex Lax Joe
|Subject:||heard it often and a confession|
|Date:||Oct 26 02:36|
|>>How often in Sacrament Meeting (especially F & T
Meeting) did you hear people say something like "without the Gospel I would be
completely lost?" Did you ever say that yourself?>>
I heard it often and yes said it although I think I phrased it: "I don't know what I'd do without the Gospel." What a Polly Molly Mormon Parrot I was. Gag!
But of course when I figured out what I could do without the gospel I thought myself right out of the Church.
>>And second, doesn't that kind of fear sound like something from an abusive relationship, where the wife beater says "you're nothing without me, you'll be completely lost without me.">>
But when you think about it that's exactly what they teach; you're nothing without Heavenly Father and His plan.
|Subject:||I believe many TBMs would indeed be lost without the gospel|
|Date:||Oct 26 02:43|
|because the gospel gives them a sense of direction and purpose in
The churchs brainwashing techniques are so successful that they produce a certain codependency . People are led to believe that they cannot survive without the gospel. This form of mind control can take years to recover from. The prophet has stated that you need the church. BIC members are taught from early on that the church is essential to salvation and eternal happiness.
Many people want eternal concepts wrapped up in one neat little package. The church hands it to them on a silver platter. Other organized religions attempt to do the same thing.
I finally realized that I was more lost with the gospel (and all of its nonsense, contradictions, and stress) than without it. I am a New Order Mormon only because of family unity, and the fear of what being branded an apostate would do to my family, my reputation and perhaps even my career.
|Subject:||Set in a Groove|
|Date:||Oct 26 03:24|
|I think most people have trouble breaking away from what they are
used to -- a fear of the unknown -- a fear of "out of the frying pan and into the
fire." Change is stressful even if it is an inprovement. Personal growth IMO happens
in phases. First there is change followed by a plateau to get used to the change. At least
this has been my experience.
The church is compelled to channel any growth in to their sanctioned pathways and a useful tool is guilt and shame. We have had several threads about how the church attempts to keep members as as children. I would say they try to have us believe we are bad children -- bad children who aren't good enough to redeem ourselves from our devalued sense of self. Gratitude is often stressed within the church. We need to be grateful for Christ and his church (to whatever degree it varies from reality) because, we are told, it is the only way we can be redeemed -- the only way we can feel good about ourselves again -- "it is the only way a person can be truely happy." So the church sets up rule after rule and hoop after hoop for the members to jump through in order to be worthy of their happiness. They tells us what to do, think, and feel. Without these rules, we are told, we would be absolutely miserable. So within the definitions set up by the church, a person cannot know how to be happy and therefore can't be happy. They would be lost and would not know what to do to redeem themselves.
I'm shooting from the hip here, Decon. I'd be interested to know if you think I'm headed in the right direction.
|Subject:||To me this is an admission.....|
|Date:||Oct 26 03:38|
|of the self imposed conspiracy of no-think. The opposite
would be to stand up in Church and say, "I don't need this,
I can get along just fine on my on reasoning power."
It goes right along with the-thinking-has-been-done-when-
The less independant they can appear the more righteous
and compliant they will be seen. And approval by others,
especially priesthood leaders, is all important. Obedience
over independant thought makes for a good follower.
Mormonism as a result is a house full of dullards.
|Subject:||Would'nt it be great . . .|
|Date:||Oct 26 17:27|
|if a whole bunch of exmo's got together and went to a testimony
meeting and bore out testimony. "Yes, I'd like to bear my testimony, I know the
church is full of toxic lies and controlling propaganda. I know a lot of you think it but
are afraid to say it. Like you there Mr. Johnston remember your wife dragged you to my
wedding because your wife worked with my mom. Your were shocked as hell when you realized
I was the bartender at your secret hide-out. I was shocked as hell when you were
introduced as "Bishop" Johnston. You should have tipped me better Mr. Johnston.
I believe a lot of your businesses are supported by your network of mormon connections but if we all just stood up together against this corperation of deceit we will be better off and so much happier. I belive that Joseph Smith was a sick and deranged individual and I know all of you have also thought this, so join me and walk out of this church together. Amen!
|Subject:||What I think.|
|Date:||Oct 26 05:30|
|1- People hear the rest of the ward say shit like this from the time
the come out of the womb, they are brain washed (Just like every other aspect of
2- they are actually lost within the church, and are actually using reverse physcology on themselves; out of(like you said) fear.
3- Testimony meetings make people say the Godamndest things.
4- They really would be lost without the church, kind of like a heroin addict is lost without heroin.
5- they don't believe it, and are saying it to fit in.
|Subject:||They are right.|
|Date:||Oct 26 08:36|
|When they say such things they are speaking as people whose
identities are so intertwined with Mormonism that they would truly be lost without the
Church. They are parts of a collective, and they have defined themselves as cogs whose
roles are defined by their relationship to the machine.
What they don't realize is that life goes on without the church. Life can (and most often does) become better without the church, but Mormons lose their Mormon selves and their Mormon world view when they put Mormonism behind them. Only then can they begin the process of developing new and truer identities as free-thinking individuals. Only then do they cease to allow the old men in SLC to determine their worth as individuals.
|Subject:||A lot of times when people bear their testimony|
|Date:||Oct 26 08:41|
|I think they just copy what others have said to sound profound and spiritual. I know I did this a couple times. You figure, "OK, I had the guts to get up here, now I gotta say something that sounds authoritative and confident." So you ramble on the standard stuff and throw a little emotion (possibly some tears) and there you have it! Presto chango! A valid sounding testimony whether you are a TBM or a New Order Mormon.|
|Subject:||OK, I'll be glad to explain it...|
|Date:||Oct 26 08:46|
|I don't believe I've ever said, "I'd be completely lost without
the gospel," but here's a scenario.
Take for example a person who has finally made the decision (after many years of struggling to "be worthy of the truth") that the mormon church isn't all it claims to be.
By now this person's husband is a bishop.
The family has just moved and the only people she knows very well are mormons.
One child just married in the temple and is now stuck forever in that lifestyle unless he wants to cause waves and start on the lonely path of "searching for the truth."
Another child is one week from going on a mission. He'll be gone for two years while you struggle with whether or not you should burst his bubble by telling him what you know--or if you should let him finish the mission like his father wants him to.
You have five church jobs because you are in a needy ward and you are talented in various areas. You also enjoy using your talents and haven't really directed yourself to any alternate areas because you've been so busy doing church work that you haven't had the time.
Your children are doing well--do you really want to rock the boat and maybe make things worse.
Your husband could easily want out of this situation--after all, his life plan says that he'll be married to a faithful mormon for eternity. This situation will definately not make him happy.
Your house is loaded with mormon books, mormon files and pamphlets and paraphernalia.
Your family has been mormon for so long that there are books written on them. One grandfather was a bishop for 20 years. One great-g "worked his way" across the Atlantic and then crossed the plains with the original mormon pioneers.
ALL your EXTENDED family members are ULTRA mormons--all kids go on missions. All active in the church.
Well, I could go on. Yea, I'd go so far as to say that a person in that situation would be a little discombobulated if she just up and stopped going to church.
And, Yes, that person described above was me three years ago, and I'm still working on it.
It ISN'T EASY!
|Subject:||You tell 'em, Dimmes!|
|Date:||Oct 26 16:51|
|To describe NOMs as 'too scared' is just insulting. Everyone doesn't have to react to new understandings in the same fashion.|
|Subject:||Lots of great responses this am!|
|Date:||Oct 26 09:43|
|I KNOW I said that horse poop! I really, truly believed I would die
if I left. The last 6 weeks have been difficult, but guess what? No angels visited me to
practice their pesky death penalties on me! WAHOO!
I think we all have to be understanding of where people are at. Some NOM must take that path. When I realized the truth, the snap ocurred immediately, a switch turned that could never be reset. I could never go back, but that's part of my personality. My wife's experience was something completely different, her friendships rise above any ethical breaks. She is true to friendship that way.
|Subject:||That's why there's this board.|
|Date:||Oct 26 12:51|
|Author:||Eve of Destruction|
|Because people who leave the Mormon church do tend to feel lost, and
in many cases do flounder around for a while until they get a new paradigm to replace
their broken one.
I just think most TBMs don't realize, or don't allow themselves to realize, that the lost, floundering stage is temporary.
|Subject:||It is human nature to believe what you are told especially if it is|
|Date:||Oct 26 13:43|
|repeated by someone in authority in your group. Repeating a
falsehood over and over does not make it true, but it seems true! Especially reading it,
anything written in books, must be true. Right? Especially, if the one in authority claims
that authority from God. The psychology of religion is insidiously controlling and
damaging to freedom.
Mormonism has group-think down to a science! Add the hypnotic droning rote testimonies and you have a bunch of clones. And what fuels all this: EMOTION!
YES many who leave are LOST without the "gospel" because, it is all they have known! And being told you would be "LOST" over and over and over tends to make a person believe that is what will happen.
What they do not tell you is that being LOST is one of the BEST things that can happen to you. Then YOU find what YOU need and learn not to depend on anyone else for what works for YOU!
I am grateful I am "LOST" without the gospel! Best decision I ever made was to GET LOST! :-)
To be precise, I LOST the gospel on purpose! Ditched it. It was just too ludicrous and preposterous to believe anymore.
|Subject:||Re: "Without the Gospel I would be completely lost"|
|Date:||Oct 27 11:32|
|Decon, my wife said this to me just yesterday, I really just shook mt head in dis belief. To me it's simple, they are just programmed to think this way anf believe it. And of course it is arrogant and condescending to nonmmebers. You know what gets me and amazes the hell out of me about thesebrainwashed members is that in my wifes sitaution with all the stuff we are giong through etc, for a church that has the answers to everything. my wife has really bee non a journey to find herself and finally discover what she wants-but the irony if it is, is that whwer she has made probably her greatest progress in individual development has been with the help of various non church sources! Doesn't see this(or not wanting too) as any significance|
|Subject:||Actually I think it's true.|
|Date:||Oct 28 16:13|
|When you have no self esteem, no integrity and no self
knowledge it is impossible to live in a world that
demands independence and integrity. For mormons
the thought of etichs and morality being subjective and
to be gained trough intellectual struggle is a scary
concept. It feels more secure to rely on sky-daddy than
to face the fact that nobody has any 'superior' answers
for what is right or wrong. To face the reality with all its
injusticies is also very painful, it's easier to find comfort
in sky-daddy making everything allright in the next life
then to actually try to understand what causes the
injustice and misery in this life. It's easier to adapt fake
gospel principles (whatever that is) then to actually try to
understand the world trough intellectual struggle. It is
always painful to change, (and it should be otherwise
we would constantly change too much for our own
well-being). And ultimately that's the reason people stay
in destructive habits. I think TBMs uncounciously knows
that leaving mormonism is painful, and that's why they
hold on even stronger to the "gospel". It takes alot of
courage to face the pain and the fear, some people
really haven't got that courage. And the reason they
haven't got it is because they live in a cult that thrives on
replacing courage with false hope and replacing
responsibility with guilt. It's really a sad irony that the
reasons why mormonism is such a destructive force is
the same reason why most of its members won't
escape it. They can't live without it because
mormonism has robbed them of their means to survive
without it, and that robbery is also what makes
mormonism a destructive cult that everyone IMO should
live without. Because actually pain and fear doesn't kill
you and once faced and understood the pain and fear
gradually goes away.