Subject: Negative impact of the Mormon church on my kids and why I took them out.
Date: Nov 19 01:21 2002
Author: Amelia A.

When I was ready to return from my mission I wanted to die right then because I had worked so hard and thought I would go to the CK [celestial kingdom] at that point. I was so afraid to go home and be imperfect. It was inevitable that I would have conflicts with my mother because of her difficult personality and I felt that any uncharitable feeling towards her on my part would disqualify me for the CK.

Fast forward to family life fourteen years later when my little five year old daughter tells me one day after Primary that she wants to die before she is eight so she can go to the CK.

I was sickened. What is wrong with a religion that makes you afraid to live your life? This was one of the final straws for me when I saw it hurting my kids. I had accepted years of perfectionistic pain in my own life and didn't want that for my kids.


Subject: Re: Negative impact of the church on my kids and why I took them out.
Date: Nov 19 01:31
Author: Beenthere Donethat

We had our primary program last Sunday. It was interesting the speaking parts that the young children had. My 4 y.o son said something about doing work for the living and the dead (theme was temples). I would say that all the kids 6 and younger had their part whispered in their ears and didn't have a clue to the meaning of what they were saying. Brainwashing at it's best I guess.....


Subject: My first post is triggering more memories.
Date: Nov 19 01:34
Author: Amelia A.

My first two children were boys, which gave me a sense of relief. I didn't want to have a girl that would have to experience the pain of believing in a polygynous eternal destiny. My third child was a daughter. When she was very small and I was still in the morg, she would say, "Mommy, aren't you glad you finally had a little girl?"

Of course I would put on a big, fake smile and answer in the affirmative. But inside the grief I felt was profound. Talk about conflict!

Why did I continue to hang in there for as long as I did? After finally exiting, everything became crystal clear. It amazes me now that I persisted so long when my gut tormented me on the misogyny from the time I was fourteen until I left over twenty years later. Constant internal wars. The other females aroung me seemed to accept it all without a ripple. You have to feel pretty damned insignificant to put up with such damaging beliefs.


Subject: Re: My first post is triggering more memories.(very long!)
Date: Nov 19 02:21
Author: Beenthere Donethat

WEll, I know the reason i put up with it so long was I was able to "ignore" the parts I didn't like or really believe in. It wasn't until the past few months I woke up and and saw the things i had been able to ignore before. I'm not sure why all of a sudden I became enlightened. I know I heard in SS that you can't be in celestrial kingdom without temple marriage. i thought thats just dumb. I could be the best christian everything the morg preaches, but my salvation is determined by someone else (spouse being worthy for temple)? All of a sudden all the bricks stared tumbling down. Why it didn't happen sooner I don't know. I guess it was like that last straw that broke the camels back. But to stay on topic I have another gotta get my child out story:
I have a son who is mildly mentally retarded.He goes to a regular school and is in regular classes with an aid so he does pretty good. No behavioral issues. Pretty pleasant, happy guy. When he was 12, he began to have his yearly interview with the bishop. Baptism came up. The bishop thought not yet as he would be held accountable for things he can't understand. I thought he would only be held accountable for the things he can understand and no more. Anyway, it wasn't a deal breaker for me either way EXCEPT he really wanted to be able to pass sacrament like his classmates were doing. BUt, of course he can't. He also can't go on temple trips. The lessons mean nothing to him since a lot of them are about temple/mission/preisthood. WEll, he started hating coming to church. I wonder why...I have always been an advocate for him to been included in school, community and neighborhood with great results. Now, here we are at church and my feeling is that he is being discriminated against more than any other place or time in his life. His speech is very poor and he does not articulate well so this is not something he can talk about to leaders etc.
So, I'm thinking...what can he do at church that would make him feel included. Some responsibility that he can be proud of. Something that can get him to look foreward to going to church.I had the solution (I thought).I went to his quorum advisor and told him I felt my son needed to feel involved. I told him I thought he would love to pass out the bulletins and be a greeter. He is very social and would do a good job. He said currently,those in the teachers quorum had that job. But as we know, it doesn't HAVE to be a preisthood holder. He said he would talk it over with the higher ups.
About a month later he says to me, I just want you to know I did bring the issue up. One leadrer suggested he just be baptised so he could do the other stuff.I (the leader) told him the bishop was not wanting to do it right now. He said they said they would "talk about it." What exactly is there to talk about??
WEll, fast forward to this past Sunday about 3 months later. I knew I was going to start a fade away from church. I hated to bring up the subject again and them say yes and then feel committed to come.But, I really wanted to know the decision and reasons behind it. I sat in sacrament mtg in a quandry. Finally, I couldn't resist. The YM leader I had originally spoke with was sitting right in front of me. I ask him if the decision had been no since I had not heard anything. He said he didn't know. That he had brought up the issue NUMEROUS times with no clear answer. i asked him if there were issues or concerns that were holding up the decision. He said he is not "privy" to those conversations. He apoligized and said he would bring it up again. i told him to hold off as we would be gone a lot over the next 2 months due to holidays/vacation/work shedules. He again said he was sorry (he is social worker by trade and works with a lot of kids with varing disabilities).I told him not to worry about it and i think he could tell my voice was cracking a little. We left after sacrament and I don't have any plans of going back. Forget the fade away technique!!
Anyway, I know this is long but it's late at night and I guess I need to vent!!!


Subject: Your story kills me.
Date: Nov 19 09:04
Author: Amelia A.

The stupid channels of authority crap has stripped the humanity right out of the church. I mean, what is there to talk about? I still can't understand why they haven't just baptised him in order to have him feel included. For a supposedly Christian church, there is no real understanding of being loved as you are created.


Subject: Thank you for sharing that story!
Date: Nov 19 10:56
Author: Cheryl

Schools and the general public are learning to value individual differences in children. But not the church! It continues to steam-roller along over every little child who doesn't fit their mormon child stereotype. It's disgraceful!

I recognize great moms when I see them, and you're it!


Subject: Grr! Nobody should be treated like that.
Date: Nov 19 11:13
Author: jolimont

I'm always glad to see someone leave the cult. It'll do your son a world of good to not be subjected to that kind of treatment.


Subject: Re: My first post is triggering more memories.(very long!)
Date: Nov 19 21:23
Author: Rae

Your post broke my heart. We are smart to get out before our kids get destroyed for being who they are.


Subject: One more story
Date: Nov 19 01:40
Author: Amelia A.

After church one Sunday I found my second son who was probably eight or nine crying in his room. "What's wrong?" I asked.
"I don't want to go to the celestial kingdom, it just seems so boring , sitting in the corner playing a harp all day!"
It was very cute and funny and sad all at the same time. I reassured him that there were lots of things to do in the CK, but believe me, i don't think I was very convincing.


Subject: If I heard my kids say those things...
Date: Nov 19 01:54
Author: antishock8

they'd be gone in a second. I can't believe anyone would let a child remain in an organization that makes him/her express the desire to die. It's crazy.


Subject: Totally nuts
Date: Nov 19 02:10
Author: Amelia A.

Absolutely right, it was crazy. Hearing it come out of her mouth jolted me awake. Years of indoctrination had put me into a deep slumber.


Subject: Is it the teachers?
Date: Nov 19 02:56
Author: Rocannon

Where do kids pick this stuff up? It must be from Primary teachers, who, come to think of it, aren't always the brightest candles on the cake.

I've come around to thinking the Church isn't good for kids--it teaches good behavior without teaching good morals, which is not a successful approach to raising kids or to teaching true religion. Why do so many people, including plenty of nevermos, think the Church is so great for kids?


Subject: Re: Is it the teachers?
Date: Nov 19 09:11
Author: Amelia A.

When my daughter came home from primary and told me she wanted to die before age eight so she could go straight into the CK, she said it in such a cheerful little voice! The teacher obviously had done her job well that day, communicating such a thing to a five-year old as a positive aspiration.


Subject: Sometimes it may be the teachers. Sometimes not.
Date: Nov 19 10:33
Author: Cheryl

I thought about dying before age eight and have had others tell me they did too. I think bright children who happen to key in on the doctrine do come up with dark mormon issues with or without the help of primary teachers.


Subject: You're right to take your kids out, Amelia.
Date: Nov 19 10:47
Author: Cheryl

Sometimes parents quit but continue to send their kids. Big mistake! The church sometimes hurts them much more than it does adults.


Subject: Re: the only way to guarantee your kids go to CK
Date: Nov 19 11:15
Author: danboyle

I heard on a radio talk show in SLC that a loving (TBM)parent should make the ultimate sacrifice and kill the kids before they reach 8 yrs the kids are guaranteed entrance to the CK !! What a concept, the parents showing true love.....


Subject: Mormons don't murder their kids before age 8
Date: Nov 19 11:29
Author: jolimont

for the same reason christians don't commit suicide once they are "saved". They aren't sure enough of this life after death stuff. They believe, but they aren't sure. In other words, they are no better off than your average agnostic when it comes to life after death. Some of those christians love to explain how atheists/agnostics are a threat to society because they don't believe in eternity. What they really mean to say is that it's OK for christians to be prejudiced towards atheists/agnostics since they espouse a different world view. Conclusion: there are christians oput there who are afraid of people who are willing to admit nobody is sure about life after death! Where is reason in all of that?


Subject: And they may not be all that sure deep down . . .
Date: Nov 19 11:35
Author: Schweizerkind

a former colleague told me about his TBM (stake patriarch) FIL who, on his death bed, said "I sure hope this works out the way I think it will."

The-cognitive-dissonance-was-apparently-breaking-through-ly yours,



Subject: coming home in a pine box
Date: Nov 19 11:41
Author: willie nelson

Remember that saying that a parent would rather their son come home in a pine box than that he disgrace himself and his family by fornicating while on his mission? I have people on my in-laws' side that believe that horse manure. So I am a bit reluctant to have my kids spend any time alone with them. Think about that statement about the pine box - it is criminal in its effect. So, I don't think the morg is a very healthy place, warm fuzzies to the contrary notwithstanding.


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