|Subject:||BIC,RM,MIT, finally ready to bail......|
|Date:||Dec 02 13:07 2002|
|The questions really started my first time through the temple. The
questions continued through my mission. Six months of praying every night brought no
answers. I guessed my belief in the church would have to be based on faith. I never
received an answer like the one described in the scriptures. My questions continued
throughout the next ten years or so. Up to this point, I had been successful in putting
these questions at the back my mind. When I reached my thirties, I could no longer ignore
them. I had to find answers, or go crazy. I wasnt going to pass on to my children
ideas/beliefs I was not sure about. Of course I figured the answers were there, I just
never took the time to do the research. Up until now, maybe I had been afraid of what I
might find out. Being a closet doubter was an easier way to go along, but I realized I
could not do that anymore.
It all came to a head when my bishop called me in for an interview a few years ago. It started with Why dont you have a temple recommend? I told him nothing in my personal life would prohibit me from having one, but that I had too many unanswered questions about some teachings. Until I felt good about things I was not going to go through the motions anymore. We spent the next three hours talking about my questions, (I didnt get home until after 11:00) he promised to do some research and get back to me.
Three years later, I still havent heard a word from him on the subject. The one piece of advice he did give me was to study the issues that concerned me and find out for myself. He said he had done the same, and found his answers. His confidence in his suggestion gave me great hope; all I had to do was some research and my questions would be answered. When finished I would put my doubts behind me, and go forward with more belief in the truth of the church.
He could not have been more wrong. Everywhere I looked, the truth did come out, but the church was not on the winning side. At this point, some would say; Well, what do you expect from anti-Mormon sources? This was the real disappointing part of my search. The incriminating information came from church sources. The anti-Mormon literature isnt stuff made up by anti-Mormons, it is MORMON information that has been hidden or changed or edited or buried by the church. The antis dont need to make up anything, just provide the accurate information, and the damage is done.
Here are some of the questions I was struggling with:
Why did JS provide at least three different versions of his first vision?
Why did JS join the Methodist church after JC allegedly to him not to join any?
Why did JS secretly marry young women and other mens wives, and lie to Emma about it?
Why did JS translate the BofM with his head buried in a hat, using his peep stone?
Why does the BofM condemn polygamy and the D&C embrace it?
Why does lamanite DNA show Mongoloid (Asian) not Israelite roots?
Why does the BofM have contradictory verses within itself?
Why would a loving God demand Emma accept polygamy or be damned (D&C 132)?
Why was the church at the tail end of racial equality, wouldnt Jesus be at the head?
Why does the temple ceremony seem just like a freemason ceremony?
Why are there phrases that are exactly like the freemason ceremony?
Why were some of these exact phrases eliminated in 1990?
Why garments? Why freemason symbols on them?
Why are secret fraternity-style handshakes necessary to get to heaven?
Why do stake presidents give contradictory counsel to couples about to marry? They are inspired leaders arent they?
Why did the church edit and change its own history?
Why did the brethren pay Mark Hoffman for fake documents?
Why were they in such a hurry to buy these documents only to bury them in church HQs?
Why didnt SWK know he was looking at forgeries? He is supposed to be a seer.
Why is the book of Abraham still considered scripture?
Why are the erroneous facsimiles still published as scripture?
How could JS be a prophet when prophecies made in the name of JC didnt come true?
How could BY be a prophet and teach that Adam is God the Father?
SWK officially denounced this teaching as false, which one (SWK or BY) is a true prophet?
How could BY be a prophet and teach there was no immaculate conception?
How could BY be a prophet and teach that Adam had sex with Mary to conceive JC?
Why were men sealed to JS and BY in the temple?
Why did the church continue with secret polygamist marriages after the manifesto?
Why is the BofM so full of KJ Bible phrases? Even the errors were copied over.
Why were the BofM witnesses only allowed to see the plates with spiritual eyes?
Why were there doctrinal changes to the BofM, in addition to 3,000+ grammatical changes?
Why doesnt the BofM (fullness of the gospel) mention temples, pre-existence, baptism for the dead, eternal marriage, endowments, and many other unique Mormon doctrines?
Why couldnt JS retranslate the lost 116 pages? I can see why he couldnt if he made them up as he went along, but re-translating them, word for word, should have been easy.
Why does the church change the official history to hide JSs drinking ?
Why do Jesus words still make sense after thousands of years, yet mormon prophets claims of relatively few years ago are an embarrassment and must be hidden or altered?
Why would a true prophet describe inhabitants of the moon, and the sun?
How could a true prophet prophesy that some would teach these inhabitants the gospel?
Why did GBH deny the churchs teaching about God once being a man?
Why does the church hide where tithing money is spent? If Jesus were here would His church be known for being wealthy or would it be known for giving all it had to the needy?
There are many more questions like these. I was confident my research would show the church was in the right. The anti-Mormons are busy cranking out lies to bring it down. I figured my research would prove this stuff was made up in an attempt to discredit the church. After all, isnt that what our leaders have told us all along? My own sense tells me that the one and only true church, led by a prophet of God would not be involved in any of these issues. The one and only TRUE church could stand up to investigation. The BofM, most correct of any book on earth, should withstand all inquiries, it wont crumble under them. If youre a true prophet, your prophecies come true.
One can guess what I found out. These things really did go on. The churchs history really doesnt stand up. The claims made by the leaders of the church dont add up. No wonder the brethren are always telling us to avoid the mysteries. Stay with the flock they tell us. Some will fall away, but if you stay with the body of the church everything will be all right. Unfortunately the church cannot back up any of its claims, and the evidence is so overwhelming, anyone looking will see the church for what it really is.
The church sends out 60,000 missionaries telling other people to question their own church and seek the truth. Yet the church condemns and vilifies its own members who do the same. The church leaders use phrases like: so-called intellectuals apostates too smart for their own good when referring to questioning members. What are they trying to hide? In all my experience, the truth has never had anything to hide or fear. If truth is on your side, you can withstand all challenges. Over time the truth will always come out, and lies will be exposed for what they are.
Things that didnt make sense to me in the past make perfect sense to me now. No doubt the church is full of good people, trying to do good things. But thats it. It cannot be Gods one and only. The church is simply not true because the church is not what it claims to be. The first time I realized this, I was devastated. I have cried talking about it with my wife. I felt like a ship that had just had its rudder knocked off. I thought about it for months, maybe even years. Where to go from here?
Reading the BofM once you realize what it really is can be quite an eye-opener. Watching the church leaders scramble to talk their way out of the latest fiasco is entertaining. Listening to arguments that try to explain away the truth and try to justify some of the churchs actions is laughable, once one knows the truth. The avoid speaking ill of your leaders teaching sounds more like Saddam Husseins way of thinking. What is the leadership trying to do with this kind of teaching? Why are church members not supposed to use their God-given ability to think? When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done is a teaching of the church. Junior Sunday School children sing: Follow the Prophet, follow the prophet, follow the prophet Too bad for those members who followed the strange teachings of earlier prophets. I wonder what teachings the church has now that will look just as silly a few years down the road.
My faith takes me where my physical senses cannot go. I see the world, even with all the terrible things that go on, and have faith God exists. I cannot use faith to directly contradict what is in front of me. No amount of faith will make two plus two equal five. No amount of faith will make a man-made corporation into Gods one and only true church. I wish at times I could forget everything and follow along. It would be easier for my wife, my children, and me if I could just continue to play along, but I cant.
The emperor has no clothes.
|The answers ARE out there in abundance. Read Jared Diamond's
"Guns, Germs and Steel". BOOM! It hits you like a ton of bricks that the facts
ARE out there that make the BoM impossible.
There is no reason to go through life ignoring all the answers that DO exist, unless you want to stay in a religious stupor.
I DID find answers and facts. That is what leads people out, not the other way around as you state.
Do you see your reasoning would justify belonging to anything (cult or organization) just because you can't find answers about it?
Doesn't this sound silly:
Be a liahona moonie! Don't leave just because we made a bunch of stuff up. It might be true, and you can't prove it isn't. You left because you did research and couldn't confirm what we teach! Don't be such an iron rod moonie!
|Mormonism is nonsense.
That is all there is to it.
The required evidence for Mormon assertions is from the Mormon Church. No one has to prove it is NOT true.
|Subject:||Agree. The emperor has no clothes.|
|Date:||Dec 02 13:33|
|Congratulations on reaching your limit on the lies of Mormonism.
It is a big step to finally realize how one could have fallen for all of the Mormon crap. I still cannot believe that I fell for it for years.
Best wishes in your continued recovery from the Mormon Cult.
|Subject:||Thanks for your post danboyle.|
|Date:||Dec 02 13:34|
|You wrote, "I wish at times I could forget everything and
Remember, as some "intellectual" once said, "To thine own self be true."
I see a church that is starting to crumble and frantically reaching out to hang on to some sort of security. Their security is merely a figment of their imagination. Lies cannot remain as beacons of light. Teachings which we held as gospel at one time are starting to unravel at a rapid pace and you can see the desparation in the church's action by reading the many posts on this board.
You're not alone. Sit back, relax and enjoy the show. We're in for a good time.
|Subject:||When church leaders refer to...|
|Date:||Dec 04 10:55|
|so-called intellectuals, they should in turn be referred to as so-called prophets, and apostles. ;-)|
|Subject:||Amen danboyle! Nice post...|
|Date:||Dec 02 13:42|
|Like you, I started hitting the books to find out the facts. At
first I fully expected the church writings to explain all the questions I had. The more I
read, the more I saw what was going on.
It just kills me that when you find information, from official History of the Church, or writings from prophets, members accuse you of reading "anti" mormons stuff! I guess Brigham and JS were the biggest "antis" around!
I was never anti-mormon; I was pro-truth. I didn't read anything about church doctrine written by nonmembers until much later. The key out of the church is education and a diligent study of the church's own history.
Welcome to all the new folks! There seem to be many new names here on the BB in the last few weeks.
|Subject:||Re: BIC,RM,MIT, finally ready to bail......|
|Date:||Dec 02 13:59|
|Wow, although we come from different beginnings, I find the answers
you found and the feelings they caused to be exactly like my own experience!
My husband and I are both converts and discovering the church is a fraud has been devastating as we've ingrained the church so deeply in our lives. I had to stop attending to help curb the things my 5 yr old son was being taught in Primary as I no longer believe those things.
I am an intelligent and free-thinking individual but my reason for belonging to the church was mostly emotional. I needed to have spiritual questions answered. I wasn't a by-the-book mormon but I had the strongest testimony I had ever had when I began to see the church for what it really is. I am more angry at myself for not investigating it better and not thinking for myself.
While we invested 10 years in the mormon church, I don't really regret it. It has been a positive experience for us and actually helped us mature. I am very sad and wish I could go back to my ignorance but I no longer have the "need" to have spiritual questions answered. Not that I wouldn't like to know, I just am just returning to the open-mindedness I had before I joined the church. I can take what I learn and experience and form my own answers, I don't need a deceptive religious organization to tell me what to think or feel.
I have found comfort in this BB and the support group in Utah county. I wish you good luck in your recovery from mormonism and your journey to find what works for you.
|Subject:||I felt like a ton of bricks...|
|Date:||Dec 02 14:51|
|Had been lifted off my shoulders. I still remember sitting in the
"Rusty Nail" (wonder if that's still there?) in Provo, a "non-member"
BYU co-ed who had so wanted to fit in with the my peers. Wondering how all of my friends
could stand up at F&T meetings and swear how they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that
JS was a prophet and I just didn't have a clue. What was wrong with me? Then I read the
Tanner's tome and a few other choice primary sources at the BYU library and I realize what
a load of garbage it all was.
As I sat in the Rusty Nail waiting for my Pineapple pizza (Yikes! and I'm half Italian to boot!) It hit me that I no longer wanted to be part of the "in" crowd at BYU, as everyone I knew sat talking about "THE TRUTH" I had actually found all the evidence I needed to show me that it was really all a lie.
Oh, what a relief it was!!
|Subject:||pineapple pizza is true, "the church" is not!|
|Date:||Dec 02 15:43|
|Welcome danboyle - I wish you a joyous, mormon free life!
|Subject:||I admire your commitment to truth...|
|Date:||Dec 02 17:22|
|I think your questions valid.
I think your search is honest.
I will bet your conclusions are sound whatever they may be.
|Date:||Dec 02 17:23|
|I felt like I was reading out of my journal when I read your post.
The first time through the temple wasn't a very spiritual experience for me either; it could best be described as "spooky".
|Subject:||will you join the ranks of the bitter?|
|Date:||Dec 02 17:46|
|Dan, the road you now travel is a solitary sort. After a life of sacrifice, bright hope and faith it is a dissolution that does not come easily. Disappointment and sadness quickly lead to bitterness and thoughts of revenge if so allowed. What will be your road? Were is your wife in all of this? My heart goes out to you my fellow traveler. You are in the midst of no less than the destruction of the world as you know it. No matter how bravely you step into the light of the brave new world, your former hopes and dreams will be sorely missed - for you cannot entirely remake yourself. I encourage you to find happiness in your freedom rather than anger in your captivity. Good luck to you, and don't forget to bring your wife along and be patient with her. Many are hesitant to let go of dreams regardless of the obviousness of reality.|
|Subject:||Re: will you join the ranks of the bitter?|
|Date:||Dec 02 18:39|
|thanks for the kind letter. I was very bitter and wanted revenge a year or so ago, but I feel less anger now, more sadness for the time wasted. My wife is not coming along yet, very much a social mormon. The good side is that it makes her not so judgemental of my leaving, but not to inclined to leave herself (yet). Now my only regrets are my wife and two kids, but in time they will also see the church for what it really is. I am amazed at the internal peace I have felt after making the decision to really leave.|
|Subject:||Help with this?:|
|Date:||Dec 02 18:24|
|"Why were men sealed to JS and BY in the temple?"
Wow, this is new to me! Can anyone give more info here?
|Subject:||Here's a link to more on men being sealed to men....|
|Date:||Dec 04 02:23|
|...you'll have to scroll almost a quarter of the way down to where
it says "Sealing Men to Men" -- fascinatng stuff!
|Subject:||Re: BIC,RM,MIT, finally ready to bail......|
|Date:||Dec 02 19:05|
|Congratulations... you found truth.
The hard part is it will nag at you most likely for the rest of your life. The cult provided instant friends and affiliation that are hard to replace. What, did you think Im coming over to help you move?? Just kidding.. I'd be happy to...
You have started a journey that ended with organized religion to experience your own walk through life. Religion is not a group activity... you have the brain, use it to sort out the truth. You are on the way! Congratulations!
I had a similar experience, only they said look youve read two anti Mormon books, now come back and read your 100,000th pro Mormon book and get back on track. Only when I did I saw through the BS... my mind was clear for the first time... the truth set me free!!
|Subject:||Most of us who post on this board........|
|Date:||Dec 02 19:48|
|have gone through or are going through the same feelings that you
are experiencing. But, I believe for most of us, after the hurt, pain, anger, tears,
rejection, etc., slowly pass, there is a feeling of freedom and, perhaps, closeness to
"the spirit" that was never felt while in the Morg. I truly believe in the
statement, "And ye shall know the truth...and the truth shall make you free."
I truly respect the folks who post on this board. I have learned more from them than I learned in more than 50 years of Mormon church activity. I have learned, above all, that I am not alone. I once thought I was on "a road less traveled"....but I now feel that I'm on a freeway of people who have or who are in the process of escaping from the clutches of Mormonism.
My only advice to you, if you are so inclined, is to stay close to God. Treat your wife and family with understanding, love and kindness....and things will work out OK.
I thoroughly relate to your post. I empathize with you and congratulate you for your honesty and courage.
|Subject:||Ya, he's been naked all along...|
|Date:||Dec 03 18:01|
|Like you, I'm pretty new to all this too, but it's great to finally
know the truth, and it does set you free !!!!
At first I was angry too, angry at being decieved for far too many years, for giving way way too much money to an organization thats as much about religion as the boy scouts.
Actually I was more than angry.. I WAS SO SO PISSED OFF.
But you know what? It didn't take long to start realizing that I was OK, more than that, I was a really good person. I didn't have to measure up to an unattainable preciept of a perfect person. I could just be me and that's OK!! So it didn't take long before the anger left and the main thing I felt was huge relief, and so much happiness. It will get better for you, hang around this board, it's been a giant
help to me in processing my feelings, and identifying them.
The people are good and caring and funny and smart. Good luck to you :-)
|Subject:||True integrity (with one cuss word)|
|Date:||Dec 03 19:06|
"It all came to a head when my bishop called me in for an interview a few years ago. It started with Why dont you have a temple recommend? I told him nothing in my personal life would prohibit me from having one, but that I had too many unanswered questions about some teachings. Until I felt good about things I was not going to go through the motions anymore."
WOW. I'm impressed with your sense of integrity. So often church leaders and members imply (or flat out state) that not having a temple recommend (or not going on a mission, etc.) necessarily means that one is "unworthy." What complete bullshit!
I have always found it disconcerting that people who are honest and making a good-faith attempt to have a testimony are branded as "unworthy" while those who follow the fake-it-til-you-make-it program are heralded as devout seekers. IMO, true integrity is striving for wholeness, for honest partnership between behavior and belief.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Good luck.
|Subject:||Aaaah, Yes, faking it|
|Date:||Dec 04 00:24|
|Despite all of my real feelings and thoughts about the church, BOM,
etc., if I were to have simply kept showing up at church (perhaps just attending the
required 3-hr block and nothing else), then my family and friends would have gone on
treating me with all the respect and admiration reserved for TBMs who hold onto their
testimony and endure to the end and stay true to the Gospel!
It need not matter than I find the whole thing a total scam and am bored to death and would rather do anything than sit through a boring gospel doctrine class again. I could fool them all just by showing up and faking it!
My integrity wouldn't let me and I had to leave for my kids' sake and for my posterity (geez, what a mormon term huh?). I left a couple of years ago and I have to say that it gets easier over time dealing with TBM family. For me, staying and faking it would have been much harder in the long term than leaving and the fall out it caused. Now I feel more free and happier than I have ever felt. It took me about a year to feel that way. good luck.