Subject: Sunday's Youth Message
Date: Dec 31 12:11 2002
Author: GoingGoingNotGoneYet

This past Sunday we had the pleasure of hearing from four college students in our ward that were home from BYU for the holidays.

One of them told us with great pride that he was looking forward to a temple marriage. He further told one that his Institute instructor had told the class that "I'd rather bury my son than see him get married outside of the temple." The speaker then concluded with a reading from D&C 132.

I was just about to jump up and ask "What about the part of D&C where it talks about polygamy? Is it possible that only part of this scripture is true?" However, in deference to my ever-faithful wife and our 5 kids I decided to bite my tongue one more time.

Subject: That's what the ammo in the pantry is for...
Date: Dec 31 12:21
Author: PRAVDA

If any of his kids shows any romantic interest on someone lacking a temple season pass, he knows what to do. A bullet between the eyes and daddy can have himself a mormon funeral instead of a non-mormon wedding.


Subject: Better dead than have sex too... (references)
Date: Dec 31 12:45
Author: Deconstructor

Unfortunately, this young man's Institute teacher is right on the mark when it comes to Mormon teachings on chastity. Church leaders have taught that death is better than engaging in pre-marital sexual activity.

But now it looks like some Mormons are going the next step and saying better dead than married outside the temple. Talk about cranking the notch up on temple recommends!

Here's what church leaders have said about death being better than experiencing sex before marriage:

"You will recall Alma’s teaching his son Corianton that unchastity is the most serious offense there is in the sight of God, except for murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (See Alma 39:5.) President Clark, in a conference address in October 1938, said: 'Chastity is fundamental to our life and to our civilization. If the race becomes unchaste, it will perish. Immorality has been basic to the destruction of mighty nations of the past; it will bring to dust the mighty nations of the present. You young people, may I directly entreat you to be chaste. Please believe me when I say that chastity is worth more than life itself. This is the doctrine my parents taught me; it is truth. It is better to die chaste than to live unchaste. The salvation of your very souls is concerned in this.' Now, my dear friends, we know there is nothing new in what we have said. These things are time-tested; they are true. To this we testify."
-LDS First Presidency Message "We Believe in Being Chaste," Ensign, Sept. 1981, 3

"Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life - better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many is faithful the Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: 'I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.'"
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (all editions), page 124.

President David O. McKay is quoted in Kimball's book as follows:
" . . . Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Do not tamper with sin . . . do not permit yourselves to be led into temptation."

Heber J. Grant is also quoted in Kimball's book:
"...There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity -- realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world."

Later in the same book, President Kimball again addresses the matter of Chastity with the elsewhere mentioned paragraph:
"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given OR TAKEN OR STOLEN it can NEVER BE REGAINED. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. IF SHE HAS NOT COOPERATED and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a MORE FAVORABLE position. There is no condemnation where there is NO Voluntary participation. It is BETTER TO DIE in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." (emphasis mine)

This "better dead than.." teaching has been around a long time in Mormon Seminary and Institute.

I feel sorry for the ignorant Mormons who believe it.

Subject: Re: Better dead than have sex too... (references)
Date: Dec 31 13:32
Author: Kristin

Argh! How can anyone rather have a dead child thatn anything. What a sick f*%k! What about loving your child unconditionaly? Thanking God for the privledge of raising a child. That is a horrible thing to say. I am now giving him the evil eye through the computer.

Subject: Sick LDS dogma
Date: Dec 31 13:44
Author: KhanKrumtheBulgar

This is the unpleasant truth about the "So Called LDS Sexual Morality". It is acceptable to molest Children, Incest is okay, LDS Politicians refuse to enforce the laws against Polygamy. Those Lying Bastards know full well that incest is being committed in the name of religion. They are the modern Pharisees and Sadduces. Whited Sephulcures full of corruption. Polyandry was practiced by both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young as well as Adultery. Smith married and impregnated Women whose Husbands he sent on Missions. Don't you phoney Bastards ever lecture me again about Sexual Morality EVER!! You have no business telling anyone how to live their lives in view of your History and Corrupt practices. Kiss my Ass.

Subject: Yep, in church, I was taught my parents would rather have me DEAD than for me to have sex before marriage
Date: Dec 31 14:20
Author: nonmemberfriend

It was during the plane crash simulation. That long funky room with the accordian doors between the chapel and the gym represented the plane. The bishop announced the "plane" just crashed and made us think really hard about where we would end up that night if it were true. Then they sent the youth through the telestial kingdom, (the junior sunday school room), the terrestial kingdom, (the relief society/multipurpose room), and finally, voila!, the celestial kingdom (the chapel).

We were told the telestial kingdom was as far as we could progress if we had had sex, and that our parents would rather have us DEAD than for us to lose our chastity. Girls were told to fight rapists to their DEATHS rather than lose their virginity.

In the terrestial kingdom, we were told which lesser sins were allowed that would land us there.

In the celestial kingdom, our parents and families were secretly waiting for us for a surprise testimony meeting. That was how it would be--joining our loved ones in the ck if we didn't sin. Many tears were shed and wayward girls and boys were set straight and narrow again.

I remember being scared to death because I was going to end up in the telestial kingdom for masturbating.

Subject: thanks, Deconstructor
Date: Dec 31 16:04
Author: lynn

for putting all those infamous quotes together. I've printed in out to show my teenage inactive daughters. They hate the chuch and the absurdity of those quotes will blow them away.

My 17 year old in currently 3,000 miles away for the holidays. I can't imagine telling her that I'd rather she came back in a pine box than without her "virtue". What kind of message is that? It doesn't exactly say 'I love you'.

But then the mormon god is not a god of unconditional love.
He is portrayed as being cold, demanding, and unfeeling. Those quotes by church leaders are just that: cold and unfeeling.
Geeze, I'm glad I'm out. AND I'm so glad my eyes are open now to the absurdity of the church's teachings.

Subject: This is the sickest concept ever!
Date: Dec 31 13:43
Author: estebanito

Too bad Mormonism has so many worse than this!

My Dad would've done anything at all to avoid going on his mission. He ended up knocking my Mom up at the age of 15 in the back of his car just in time to avoid his mission, do the "right thing" and marry her. My Dad became a bishop later in life and I had to confess to him my sins. After another bishop took over, I had to confess to him I masturbated. He gave me quite a talkin' to, began my sick mindfuck to last until recently. Talk about a sick contradiction in the family, I guess Dad can fuck around with 15 year olds but I can't wack my own self?

My Dad HAD to have given out the "masturbation is wrong" talk to many kids, started them on their owns roads. I wonder if my Dad ever feels guilty about it?

Subject: Re: This is the sickest concept ever!
Date: Dec 31 13:50
Author: KhanKrumtheBulgar

Thank you for bringing up this topic of self Stimulation. First and foremost we will not run out of People on the Planet. Second masturbation is in my mind an acceptable form of sexual expression for those who are Divorced, Single, recently Widowed or just wanting to avoid making a mistake in a relationship. Disease is a real issue. And there is no guarantee that the Aids Vaccine undergoing clinical trials will be more than 30% effective. How many unhappy Marriages and Families are there due to this ridiculous dogma? Oh and Marrying anyone in order to become sexually active is another of my favorites. People trapped in loveless marriages, or abusive relationships. My advice to my oldest Children both married, self stimulation is much preferrable to a lifetime of mistakes compounded by a bad judgement call. Also those organs of the body that enable sexual expression are healthiest when exercised. These anal retentive fools are destroying peoples lives with their BS ignore them.

Subject: Re: Sunday's Youth Message
Date: Dec 31 13:48
Author: Mandy

And Tiger Style tries to claim that my sexual hang-ups have nothing to do with the Morg!

This is the kind of stuff that I was taught.

Subject: Boyd K. Packer's talk on morality.
Date: Dec 31 13:59
Author: KhanKrumtheBulgar

How many young minds have been twisted with this 12th century bull shi*? Responsible sexual expression is an essential ingredient to personal happiness. Mormon dogma is about complete control of its members by its elite. They are the worst of hypocrites. They know the Church History with Brigham Young and are rewriting Church Books to omit his polygamy. They know Joseph Smith was a sexual Predator who preyed on Mothers and Daughters. Scum bag got what he deserved. Another Jim Jones, David Koresh type with more Charisma is all. My morality is one of actions and consequences. If I behave in a certain way their is a consequence to my action. If I don't want negative outcomes I avoid certain self destructive behaviors. If I want to live a certain type of lifestyle I make a deal with my Spouse. I will be faithfull to you, in return you will be faithfull to me. Any other action will result in a breach of our Marital contract with a negative outcome. If I get married and have children, I make a commitment to be a faithful partner for my spouse and children's sake. My Spouse in return agrees to meet my sexual desires within reason. If it does not degrade me or my partner as a human being and is mutually consented too, and does no harm I see no reason not to engage in the practice. With all of the baggage that these idiots have for them to lecture on sexual morality is the biggest Scam in the World.

Subject: This Concept Undermines the Gospel
Date: Dec 31 14:05
Author: FelixKrull

Thanks for bringing this up (and the quotes, Deconstructor).

How any parent could actually state something like this is beyond me. It shows an absolute lack of understanding of the basic tenets of any kind of Christianity. What this does is COMPLETELY NULLIFY THE PROFESSED "CHRISTIAN" BELIEFS OF THE LDS CHURCH. (Sorry to yell, but this drives me crazy). What about "repentance" and the fact that LDS teachings (D&C) state that once a person repents that Christ will literally forget the sin? That the blood of the Lamb washes you clean? Is that true, or not? If so, then what is this nonsense about preferring death over dishonor? Is this reflected in Christ's teachings? NO WAY. Did the prodigal son get rebuked when he returned home?

Why should any parent prefer their child to die--Christ forgives the sinner, shouldn't the parent as well?!

What a joke.

Subject: This demonstrates that
Date: Dec 31 14:54
Author: AC

Mormons revere the LDS church more than they do God. If they worship anything at all, its the church--leaving God out entirely.

Subject: Death before sin...
Date: Dec 31 15:14
Author: posaune

Hell, if you're going to be so fanatical as to make statements like that, why risk having your kids sin at all and be apart from you after death?

Why not...

...kill your children before any of them turn eight! That way, they'll get a free ticket to the CK! So what if *YOU* go to hell for murder, if you really wanted to insure their salvation this would be a sure thing, right?

Honestly, if a Mo was serious enough about keeping their kids from sin, wouldn't this be the way to go?

Subject: "Better off dead" here too.
Date: Dec 31 16:32
Author: Wallflower

My Dad actually wrote that to me in a letter a couple of years ago when I told him I had lost my testimony. Needless to say it was a real kick while I was down during a dark period of my life--especially considering I am an only child. It is a sick sick doctrine. Anyone who actually feels this way about their own child HAS to be brainwashed, in my opinion.

Subject: Re: "Better off dead" here too.
Date: Dec 31 16:37
Author: Kristin

If you dont mind me asking...What is your current relationship with your father? Did your mother know he wrote that? I am so sorry you weren't treasured for the person you are.

Subject: Thank you so much
Date: Dec 31 16:51
Author: Wallflower

Thank you, Kristin. I appreciate your kind words. My relationship with my father is non-existent. He told me he could never forgive me for the vile things I said about Joseph Smith (Book of Abraham, philanderer, etc.) As for my mother, she told me that she was not aware that my father had written that (even though he phrased it as "your mother and I would rather you had died..."). She also told me that she absolutely did not feel the same as my father. Thank goodness for the unconditional love of mothers.

Subject: another show of not loving the girls...
Date: Dec 31 17:57
Author: Suzi

They'd rather that a girl fight to the death than be raped. Excuse me, but in a rape the female is the victim, not a willing participant. How come morg men think that the female is at fault here?

My dad wasn't morg and let me tell you something. If my sister or I had ever been raped, he'd have gotten us medical care, psychological help, and then he and his brothers and friends would have gone after the rapist and made sure that he didn't do that again!

Makes me so glad that my dad wasn't a morg...

Subject: Girls were to fight to their deaths before "giving in" to rape
Date: Jan 02 14:53
Author: nonmemberfriend

because their "virtue" was worth more than their lives.

Subject: excuse my language, but (may be offensive to some)
Date: Jan 02 17:35
Author: Suzi

That kind of thinking just sucks!

I've known both mormon girls who were sexually abused and mormon boys who were the aggressors. Surprisingly enough, the girls were made to feel totally guilty about being victims while the boys were helped to "get over it." You know, the old, "We must help this young man to gain his priesthood blessings." While the poor girl is made to believe that she did wrong by not dying to preserve her virtue.

What's wrong with these people!?!?!?!


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