Subject: "Something missing from your eyes" (rant)
Date: Feb 07 13:10 2003
Author: Tarma

I'm so angry right now. I know it comes and goes, and over all, I'm doing lots better than I used to be. But right now, it feels like it will never pass.

Every time I talk to my dad on the phone, he has to bring up the Morg. He quotes to me from scriptures to support points he's making and always talks about things that happened at church. Whenever he quotes a scripture, he prods me to agree with him or at least say that I remember that part. I haven't opened a BoM in about 8 years, so I really don't remember it that well. And I DON'T WANT to remember it anymore.

I was reading that new book that's posted on this board "Journey to the Center of My Soul." She comments in there that her husband's countenance didn't change when he stopped going to church. It jogged loose this memory of what my dad said when I told him I'd had my name removed. That he had noticed something was missing from my eyes. It made me sad at the time, but now, I'm pissed about it.

I'm so sick of the Mormon attitude that they have the pipeline to God. That w/o it we are all drifting moral-less. That my soul now has part of it missing because my baptismal blessings have been revoked.

I don't really know what to do. I felt for awhile that we were making strides in our relationship, but lately I feel like we're backsliding. I would like to be able to talk to him w/o the church being brought up. I'm afraid it's a vain hope because it's a huge part of my parents' lives right now (esp since he recently retired). But it's driving me nuts. And I'm feeling anger like I haven't felt in a long time. My punching bag has been sorely abused the past few days.

I would like to bring up everything that's wrong with the church and ask him how he can believe that the BoM was divinely inspired. My dad is very well-read and I know he read a lot of church history when he converted. So I can't believe that he's unaware of all of the HUGE contradictions and lies. But my gut tells me that if I bring it all up, it could drastically change our relationship for the worse. And my gut's usually right.

I don't know what my point is. I guess I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening.

Subject: To quote Bill Clinton, "I feel your pain"
Date: Feb 07 13:14
Author: sonoflds

I find this to be the absolutely most humerous response by LDS once they have exhausted every possibility as to why you've left the Church. Trust me, and I spoeak from experience, the absolute best response to this is to laugh out loud when they say it.

Mormons are of a particular school of ignorance. I have rarely met a more out of touch, clueless and uncaring group . . . despite their protestatinos to the contrary.

In any event, hang in there. I've heard this one a few times myself and laughing reall sent them running . . . probably with stories of how I was possessed.

Subject: Actually there is something missing from your eyes...
Date: Feb 07 13:20
Author: LauraD.

it's that glazed over Stepford Wife look.

Hang in there.

Subject: I have to agree with sonoflds
Date: Feb 07 13:29
Author: elee

Reacting to such smug comments with laughter really disarms mormons. Any defensive reaction seems to feed their delusions.

Unfortunately, you might need to accept that your father is never going to treat your choice with respect. And all you can really do is lead by example. When your life doesn't fall apart on cue, maybe they'll leave you alone....

Sorry you're having such difficulty. It really sucks to have those who are closest to you gleefully anticipating your failure and doom. I hope things get better for you.

Subject: This gets ya, doesn't it?
Date: Feb 07 13:37
Author: Fly

When my husband and I first left the Church, we told my family immediately. Big mistake.

My mother instantly saw little demons swirling around me, felt "dark spirits," whatever. I knew in my head that she was full of poo, but in my heart, I hurt. It was frustrating.

We DID NOT tell my husband's family that we'd left. We did not tell them for a year. And for that entire year, they chirped about how happy we looked, how the Spirit was always around us, etc. When we did tell them, they were dumbfounded. For a year, we'd been evil apostates and they hadn't been able to tell!

The point (and you already know this) is that we all see what we want to see. None of us are objective, and your father is seeing what he wants to see, too.

The Mormon Church teaches us that when we leave, our lives will deteriorate. We'll become drug-abusers, porn stars, and gutter-dwellers. We'll lose our jobs and contract VD.

But you left the Mormon Church, and (I'm guessing) your life DIDN'T fall apart. And now your dad has to imagine a problem, and so "the look in your eyes" becomes that problem. And how can you combat this opinion, this superstitious diagnosis? It's pretty darn hard!

Words like his that have the effect of casting a spell on us, especially for those of us who've grown up in the church. We've been brainwashed with this manipulative poo since we were born! It's hard to shake those recordings in our heads. It's like a curse has been uttered..."there's... something.... missing.... POOF!"

In the face of his "discernment" it's hard not to crumble and fulfill his expectations. The Mormon part of him NEEDS to see you fail, needs you to suffer, in order to justify his belief that HE is right and YOU are wrong.

The thing is, you're not wrong. The facts are on YOUR side. Science is on YOUR side. WE are on your side. That's how this board helps. It helps us to be strong, and to learn how to handle conversations like the ones your dad is having with you.

You aren't alone. We've been there. You'll win.

Subject: It's probably the bags under your eyes that are gone
Date: Feb 07 13:37
Author: Makurosu

My parents tell me the same ol' shit. I'm just a shell of a man since I quit the Church. Whatever.

Subject: Probably thank vacant look is gone from your eyes n/t

Subject: Well...I had a very similar experience; sort of...
Date: Feb 07 14:06
Author: Dydimus

My bishop told me that I should strive to be more like my sister,
"...because she seems more happy to be alive."
Within one year my sister was trying to jump off an overpass onto I-40, stopping traffic for over 2 hours.
This was irony at its finest.

Subject: Thank you all so much
Date: Feb 07 14:22
Author: Tarma

for all the support. And for making me laugh! LOL You're all right. I was such a "good girl" growing up--very meek and obedient. As I was leaving the church, I found I had a voice and I've become much more outspoken in the years since. The blinders/bags/glazed look are definitely gone.

I'm sorry that so many of you can empathize with me, but grateful at the same time.

Subject: Whats missing from your eyes is that guilty, haunted look...
Date: Feb 07 15:24
Author: Saucie

you know the one; am I doing enough, am I good enough? Ya,
now you can be free to think what ever you want and come to your own decisions about life and what's important to you.
It's too bad that you have to sacrifice a part of yourself to have a relationship with your father. I feel for you.:-)

Subject: Ah, the glazed look. I was doing it for J. when I visited her in Europe.
Date: Feb 07 15:59
Author: Concrete Zipper

I spent long enough in the morg that some things are just habitual. Mormons often look through people instead of at their eyes, especially the missionaries. Maybe it's because, deep down, they know they're lying.

Also, I can still "feel the spirit" on command, if I'm quiet and concentrate properly. I'm convinced it's a brain state. I just need to convince some researcher to do a functional MRI while I'm feeling it.


Subject: Re: "Something missing from your eyes" (rant)
Date: Feb 07 16:02
Author: lurker

One time in Sunday School a TBM brought up his idea that of the couples who are getting married who have their picture in the paper, if they are getting married in the temple, they have a "glow" in their eyes, while those who are not getting married in the temple don't. This made me so mad that, for a while, I could hardly talk to this person. What a self-righteous attitude! The teacher of the class kind of went for it, but there weren't too many comments from the members of the class. I'm sure there were many who didn't like this comment, but they don't want to face the person down in Sunday School.

Subject: Re: "Something missing from your eyes" (rant)
Date: Feb 07 16:10
Author: Tarma

Actually, Lurker, this is kind of true. When I was a kid, I used to make a game of trying to spot the LDS couples in the paper. You *can* usually tell... but it's not from the look in their eyes. It's the cookie-cutter/wet-behind-the-ears look about them.

Subject: Tarma, would you agree that it might be the "anticipation"...
Date: Feb 08 04:53
Author: E-greg-ious

...of "going to that temple place" (and finding out about all the magic that is there) that puts the "glow in their eyes"?

Starry-eyed, says me.

Like posing for a photo, together, just before gaining entrance to Disneyland (Or, Disney World), for the first time: "gleeful anticipation"!

Those married "civilly" within the Morg have every right to have that "dead-fish look" in their eyes: the TBM people are known to make such a couple feel somehow DIRTY.

(Caveat: Not speaking from personal experience, just through and from observations made)

Subject: My two cents' worth
Date: Feb 07 16:05
Author: KJA

If you feel the gumption to talk to your father about it again, you may want to consider only discussing your feelings about your relationship; leave your feelings about the church out of it. This may allow your father to look at the damage caused to the relationship without the influence of the church. Maybe.

Subject: Make a deal w/him....
Date: Feb 07 16:11
Author: stringbean

If you have to listen to his stuff, he has to listen to yours. Also, if anything's missing from your eyes, it's probably the sadness and the fear. Women aren't supposed to get angry, or rebel when trodden upon. Anger can be real constructive when you are using it, rather than when it is using you. Your dad sounds like the typical patriarch, insisting on being in charge; the whole priesthood thing. Sorry you're having a rough time. Good idea using the punching bag!

Subject: Re: Make a deal w/him....
Date: Feb 07 16:21
Author: Tarma

Good idea, Stringbean. Any thoughts on what I could talk about to make it fair?

He is definitely the typical Patriarch. If I had a penny for every time he spouted off about being "Patriarch of the Home" or how he owned me until I was 18....

He's actually improved a ton since then or I'd have nothing to do with him. We were pretty distant right after I left the church because I was finding my anger and I couldn't deal with him dumping more actions/words on the fire.

He's not all bad though. He's conscious now about talking about a "Higher Power" or using a similar phrase instead of saying God this and God that, because he knows that bugs me. Sometimes I think I'm expecting too much to want more.

Subject: AND it's the ultimate judgement (cuss)
Date: Feb 07 16:33
Author: estebanito

because what you're really saying is that YOU have the spirit so strong as to pass judgement on another. It's disgusting. If this spiritual intuition were true, then leaders would be able to choose other Morgbots for callings and there wouldn't be any problems, like, say, pedophilia in some of the cases we're aware of. It's all a crock of shit, as we all know now.

I wonder what would happen if more morgbots put the leaders to the test, like this. You go in for a worthiness interview, and you ask the leader if they can see in a person's eyes if they're following the gospel or not. The leader will attest to it. Then during the interview when the questions are asked, just lean forward, open your eyes really wide and say, "See for yourself, Bishop." Do that with every question. He should be able to divine it, use his spirituality to see it! I mean, why not?!

Subject: Re: "Something missing from your eyes" (rant)
Date: Feb 08 02:11
Author: canada-mark

ugh. i know exaclty how you feel.
my parents pull the exact same stunts on me. it makes me angry, and then i feel bad about feeling angry. its a terrible thing to have to go through. unfortunately they dont realize how painful it is to you. and they think you dont realize how painful it is to them.

its a terrible terrible thing.
it makes me really mad. ugh

Subject: Glazed eyes and flat affect are missing
Date: Feb 08 02:20
Author: Gail

I do not miss the mindless following the words of uninspired evil old men. My non Mo family and friends see a big positive chang for some reason. :-)


Subject: FLAT AFFECT is an interesting phrase, here....
Date: Feb 08 04:56
Author: biff

...although I, myself, have seen some very exuberant people, whose "affect" could not genuinely be described as "flat".

Subject: Re: "Something missing from your eyes" (rant)
Date: Feb 08 05:18
Author: justlikejellyrolls

Your only choice is to buckle down and take a chance by saying "Look , I cannot take this talk anymore and won't take it anymore". If they love you they will stop hounding you.

Otherwise just as you want them to except you for your changes you will have to except them for who they already are. Stubborn Mormons who have no clue what it is like to think for their selves! You have to be the one to except it because they weren't the one's who changed. Just deal with the Mormon babble. You know you don’t believe in it and you know the truth. As long as you don’t let them steal you from you, you can handle it. After all you were strong enough to leave, you can handle a bit of Mormon propaganda for a few hours.

It is kind of like a newly married daughter’s mother coming over and hounding her about how to be a proper wife. Which sooooo many mom’s do.. You just put up with it until she can see for herself that you are a good wife. It may take 30 years but it will eventually happen. And if not, hey they will get laryngitis from going on so much and they won’t be able to talk! Even better! :)

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