|Subject:||I can't STAND the temple! (m)|
|Date:||Jun 12 18:36 2003|
|And my TBM husband LOVES it! He went yesterday
alone. Caused a big fight. Basically, I can't stand that he loves
something that I detest. I HATE that women have to veil their faces. Why
not men too? Duh, because we are inferior in the eyes of the church but
they have to tell us that somewhere where we can't discuss it with
others. The shroud of secrecy. Also the 'covenant' that women must be
subject "unto" their husbands. BLECH. I hate it!
Okay, so here's the big problem. I have a calling. I was just 'released' from being in the Primary Presidency. Last year's primary theme ("The Temple") about did me in. But I finally complained loudly about being burned out so now I am VT coordinator.
I have one foot in the door and one out the door so to speak. I have thought about leaving the church SO SO SO many times, but my husband is SUCH a diehard member and it would make some SERIOUS waves if I just stopped coming.
Add into that.... we have 3 small children who love church. And have great friends there. And I don't object to most of what is taught in Primary.
I actually thought the church was pretty mainstream and 'vanilla' until I had my first temple experience 8 1/2 years ago. It has made me very skeptical and angry that I was duped for so long.
And for the life of me, I can't figure out how all these women can get up and do a drippy teary testimony about how they love the temple. Do they not hear the same things that I do? How can they put that veil over their face without feeling completely and totally shunned by God?
I'm not sure I'm looking for advice.
Well, I guess if you have any advice on how to get through the next 20 years of my life without going nuts!!!
For now, I refuse to do an endowment "SESSION"... just go to attend weddings of siblings for now.
|Subject:||Re: I can't STAND the temple! (m)|
|Date:||Jun 12 18:51|
|Well it's hard to make a stand especially if you
think it will cause major rifts in your marriage, but the more time your
children spend influenced by the church the more likely they are to turn
out just like your husband (not that your husband sounds like a bad man)
Those children are being taught that they are superior to non-members
and that gays are evil etc.....
In my humble opinion it may be worth it to "go along" for your husband's sake, but ask your self if you want your kids to be taught the morals that the church teaches. Not just the sharing and loving but also the guilt and fear and chauvinism etc...
|Subject:||Sadmom, have you shared any info with your husband that you've learned here?|
|Date:||Jun 12 18:52|
|Mainly, anything that proves the church isn't true. From what I've seen on the board, women who leave first have had greater success in helping their husbands leave.|
|Subject:||Re: I can't STAND the temple! (m)|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:04|
|I have ranted and raved and vented and complained
and whatever else about the injustices of the temple...the more I went,
the more I found - there's more than just that one promise. If you step
back a little bit, you find even more about the church that puts women
below men (not just the Priesthood). I even posted an essay about it
once. This is a subject very dear to my heart. I am newly out of
the church...just made the decision 6 months ago, and I haven't even
told my family yet. They'll find out soon enough.
I am in a somewhat different position than you, because I am single and have no children. But, that doesn't change the fact that I see the discrimination in the temple and so many other women don't. Good for you for seeing it! Like Kristen said, women seem to have an easier time getting their husbands to "see the light." I can't really give advice, but good luck! You'll be able to work it out.
If you need anyone to talk with or just vent to, you can e-mail me at any time!
|Subject:||I am convinced I am not in the minority ....|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:15|
|I think if I was to ask any temple attending female
in a confidential and anonymous fashion if the 'veiling' bothered them,
8 out or 10 would say yes. And of course we see more patronizing stuff
Why are all these women so dumb? Is there somewhere I can call and complain to? LOL
Ranting, raving, venting...... that's what I do anytime the subject of the temple comes up in our house. So I'm not the only one!!!!!!!!!!!!
|Subject:||I think you are definitely in the majority...|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:32|
|at least as far as women are concerned. I think most
women recognize the unfairness in the temple. They rationalize it by
saying/thinking "there's a caveat to the promise...he has to obey
God" or "men hold the priesthood so are of course the
leaders" or, most commonly, "all things will be revealed in
the end - we don't know it all yet." Regarding the veil, I have
honestly heard that it is because men won't pay attention to the prayer
if they can see the women's faces.
The problem is that men don't recognize the discrimination, especially, I think, if they are BIC. They have been raised to believe that they are the head of the household, and everything in the temple supports that belief. It's hard to break them of it.
One thing I have done with my ultra-TBM roommate (I know an entirely different situation because she's a woman and we're not eternally committed to one another) is, as I've been reading "Women & Authority" by Maxine Hanks (bought it a Barnes & Noble), I've read passages to her. I don't know what good it has done, but it certainly has made her think. Though, I believe she'll go the "All of that stuff just strengthens my testimony" route, at least she's become aware of the issues. Maybe you just need your husband to do the same. Good Luck!
|Subject:||I'm definitely with you - it's like being in the movie "A Clockwork Orange"|
|Date:||Jun 13 02:24|
|I have all of the same objections to the temple -
since it's all symbolic, anyway, and not literal, why do we have to
literally cover our faces? And literally chant? And literally pretend
that we're spiritually progressed enough to enjoy it? And literally
support that the men are the boss of the women, as a matter of course?
(I suppose that anyone could eventually have enough of their normal psychological hesitations wiped away if programmed properly - I don't really know.)
I don't, however, consider it to be a sacred place of learning - I consider it just a little too "A Clock-Work-Orange-ish", where you are forced again and again to go through the same experience, where you view pointless material and chant meaningless mantras in order to modify your behavior, indeed your psychological make-up.
I think many LDS folks wouldn't have seen this movie, because it's rated R, so they wouldn't be likely to make this connection, but it is kind of eerie when you see the similarities between the psychological conditioning used to destroy the aberrant mind of the main character in the movie and the conditioning used in the temple to break down the minds of members until all one and all buy into the same "understanding" - however, those who successfully accept these teachings are praised, and those who don't are sanctioned - blamed for their own unworthiness, which is the only "rational" explanation for not buying into temple worship.
|Subject:||I hate the temple, and I'm a man (at least time I checked)|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:32|
|Even during my TBM days, I could not stand to wear
the silly temple garb. After the session ended and I did the
"health in our navels and marrow in our bones" routine, I'd
rush right out of the Celestial Room, and the second I was free of it,
I'd rip off the damned Baker's cap, stupid robes, lime green sash, and
leaf patterned thing-a-ma-jig.
Going to the temple made me feel like a silly, stupid cultist. I'd die of shame if any of my no-Mo friends or professional associates could see me in that silly, silly, oh so silly garb.
The temple experience also was one of the many small things that eventually added up to a critical mass in my decision to bolt the LDS cult. I recall vividly preparing to go to the temple because I was looking for guidance on a very personal, very important issue to me (OK, it was a girl--alas she dumped me). I fasted, prayed, certain that I'd receive the greater light and knowledge the Lord promised me.
So, there I was in the session waiting for the wisdom of the heavens to distill down on me and . . . nothing, nada, zippo, bupkis, squat.
What I did have, however, was an epiphany, as powerful as any spiritual witness I may or may not have had. It dawned on me as I sat there clad like a demented baker that there was no greater light and knowledge to receive. I received nothing, precisely because there was nothing to receive. What you saw was what you got. All that I had heard about the temple being a learning experience--you know, like an onion in which layers of truth are peeled off with each visit--was a fantasy.
It was the quintessential Emperor's New Clothes. My guess is that my experience is not at all unique, but who the hell is going to admit that, especially when the perception is that others receive this wonderful spiritual enlightenment in the Lord's House? Hell no, nobody want to publicly admit that they're not spiritually worthy to receive God's wisdom, so they convince themselves that they did receive a spiritual witness, and they latch on to anything and everything that could even remotely be interpreted as a spiritual experience, which of course they share with others to give evidence of their own favor in God's eyes, which in turn places yet more pressure on everyone else to manufacture their own spiritual witness. It is a vicious cycle of self-deception by spiritually insecure people who are desperate to convince themselves and others that they too are worthy of God's wisdom and love.
|Subject:||What a paradox, that you DID have an epiphany at the temple,...|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:43|
|but your epiphany was that there ARE no epiphanies,
It reminds me of my patriarchal blessing; it promises that I'll have a clear and discerning mind. Indeed, it's just discerning enough for me to be able to discern that the whole thing is a scam, lol!
I love those paradoxes.
|Subject:||Cliche then Touche!|
|Date:||Jun 12 22:00|
|My mother in law recently made the cliché remark that she learns something new every time she goes to the temple. I wanted to puke but just commented to her that I don't see how that can be true and people always say that. Sheesh how stupid can we be to not get most of it the FIRST time. Just a bunch of Masonic rituals that mean nothing. Here is what I want to know, how did Adam and Eve shake Peter's hand when they were un-embodied spirits? The D&C says you cannot shake the hand of a good sprit with no body nor will he offer his hand. Only the devil can offer his hand and you feel nothing. Angles with bodies can shake hands but Peter James and John would not have been born yet!!|
|Subject:||yet another inconsistency...|
|Date:||Jun 13 01:12|
|Isn't it amazing how inconsistencies just keep popping up once your eyes have been opened? About the only way I can figure that anyone could learn something new every time they attended the temple is if they had a short-term memory problem. BTW, congratulations on seeing the light!|
|Subject:||I think many women are in denial about their feelings on the temple....|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:52|
|I remember being deeply disturbed about being asked
to veil my face, but I didn't really admit that to myself when I was a
TBM. I was too busy worrying about how to get around the prophets'
dictates that I not have a career, etc.
It's ironic how so many TBM women I've talked to are disturbed by Middle Eastern women wearing burdkas. These conservative women used this practice as an excuse for going to war with Afghanistan, etc. Why can't they see that they are required to do the same thing in what they consider the most poignant of spiritual experiences?
I've never heard the excuse that the men can't concentrate on the prayer if the women's faces are showing, lol! I would say that if they're looking to minimize distractions, they might want to get rid of the baker's caps, funny aprons, etc. Aren't they worried that some women might be looking at men's faces? Shouldn't they be veiled, too?
I'd love to go back to the temple and unveil my face in the middle of the prayer circle to see how people reacted! It wouldn't be worth sitting through the whole boring production, though.
Good luck to you, sadmom. Think about what other people have said about what you want your kids learning. You might not think that you have a problem with many of the teachings of Primary, but remember the songs they sing. I used to be the song leader and can't believe I taught little kids these disturbing songs: "Follow the Prophet," "I Belong to the Church of Jesus Christ," etc. Your kids truly are being brainwashed, and if they haven't been fully assimilated yet, they soon will be, and you might not ever get them out. It might be nice for them to not have to serve a two-year mission (which is really a cult experience) or get married and start to "multiple and replenish the earth" right out of high school.
|Subject:||My Dear! My Dear!!|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:58|
|I was kind of amused at the fact that you were
incensed at the fact that you had to veil your face during the temple
ceremony. Think of how incensed you would be if you had gone through in
the days when you had to (symbolically, of course) slit your throat and
disembowel yourself....as well as put that d*** veil over your face.
Those are the parts that REALLY did me in.
I know how you feel and send you my "Best Wishes!"
|Date:||Jun 12 20:03|
|it gets worse. My daughter was married last week in
the temple and I got to wait outside. I refuse to go to the temple or
have anything to do with it.
FAMILY CHURCH...BULL S___
|Subject:||How’s this for motivation?|
|Date:||Jun 12 20:13|
|Imagine your children growing up and every birthday
having this strange man take you into a room, close the door, and start
asking you personal questions. Questions about what you do in your home.
Do you pray every day? Do have impure, unchaste thoughts? Questions
about what goes on in your family -and many worse things.
They are taught that this little interrogation is normal and proper behavior because after all Mommy and Daddy took me by the hand and delivered me over to this very intimidating man.
This behavior is not acceptable in any other environment you allow your children to be in. Why should this be different?
|Subject:||Congrats on setting your boundaries . . .|
|Date:||Jun 12 20:27|
|You would only feel more resentment if you ended up sitting through another whacked-out endowment session just to keep hubby happy.|
|Subject:||You are not alone. . .|
|Date:||Jun 12 20:35|
|I never went through the temple (except for many
baptisms for the dead as a teenager), as I managed to get out of the LDS
Church before that part, thankfully.
But when I was growing up, it was more the rule, and not the exception, with my parents and their friends, and lots of my relatives, that people were so shocked by what they experienced the first time going through for their own endowments, that they never went back again (unless they had a wedding to attend or something).
I remember clearly giving a talk in Sacrament Meeting once to my home ward while I was a student at BYU. The talk was on temple "worship," and I chastised my entire home ward for not going to the temple more often.
You should have seen the glares that bounced back at me from that congregation.
They knew perfectly well I didn't have a clue what I was talking about.
And they weren't about to start going more just because some 19-year-old girl told them to.
Your feelings, and experiences, are shared by many, and acknowledging them is the first step.
Feeling brave? Write to the First Presidency, and tell them how you feel.
In fact, the endowment ritual was modified in 1990 entirely as the result of a survey to some of the membership of the Church.
So, they do in part respond to feedback from the members (if only in a limited fashion).
Good luck with your husband; positive thoughts your way in that regard.
|Subject:||calling the ward to repentance...|
|Date:||Jun 12 21:39|
|Reading about your experience reminds of a story my
mom has told. She served a mission about 1950 and when she returned home
and gave her homecoming talk, she basically called the ward to
repentance. Not well received, as you can imagine!
The temple. *ugh* I wouldn't go back there for all the tea in China. I always hated the hats but the pre-1990 blood oaths were the worst...
Best wishes to sadmom in fighting the indoctrination of your children. My three (8, 11 and 14) are still very much involved/integrated into the Morg. I plan on "coming out" when my son approaches his 12th Bday. I might tell the youngest before then - she still believes in Santa right now...
|Subject:||Would seem trivial if it weren't overemphasized at church.|
|Date:||Jun 12 21:18|
|It really is just a waste of time, like changing
clothes between acts of a play that nobody ever sees. But, all the
emotional weight, along with eternal consequences, ie Goddy (my new name
for Heavenly Father, seems like he should have a stupid new name, too)
uh, Goddy will hate me if I don't know how to cut my own damn throat.
Gee, thanks Goddy. Love you too.
I still chew on the betrayal by my father, who, as a man, should have broken a few rules to help his real tribe out, ME dammit. I feel he should have told me about the whole damn thing ahead of time. Why not? I am currently having a hard time drumming up respect for the man, and I am finding more and more it has to do with the temple ceremony.
|Subject:||Welcome to my boat!!!!|
|Date:||Jun 12 21:50|
|Welcome to my boat!! I finally asked to be released
from home teaching a while back and this Sunday I am getting released
from teaching the priests. The more history I study the madder I get to
believe I did not study it before. I am also married to a TBM who I love
but who will not discuss the problems with me. I also have three kids
and feel much like you do! I know at least two of my kids don't buy it
either, at least I can talk to them now! Perhaps I came to this point so
I can be there for them when they have questions about it all. To think
I actually served as a bishop too! What a waste of my time in some ways
but in others I learned much.
Best of luck.
|Subject:||Re: I can't STAND the temple! (m)|
|Date:||Jun 13 18:18|
|Author:||RAVEN - Dana|
|I hear you Sadmom, I went every month for 12 years -
Ugggh!! Everytime I had to pull that veil over my face it irritated the
hell out of me. I spent the entire endowment session praying for
strength to keep from standing up on my chair and pulling that veil off
my head and screaming!!!
I have never felt better than I did the day I burned my garments! Ran naked around my apartment (after the kids had gone to bed - the husband was gone after I had packed his bags for him and put them on the porch and changed the locks on my door) It was the ultimate freedom!!!!
I have to go to work now, but would love to talk more later.
|Subject:||I have talked with hubby...|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:01|
|who is a great husband by the way.
This is really the only MAJOR thing that we disagree about. He thinks that I am totally in the minority with my feelings about women and the temple. He would be shocked and saddened greatly if he knew I was even typing here. I have this site secretly book marked to keep me sane. Remember, he is a diehard Mormon. We all know that this is a major no no to talk about anything disagreeing with the church. Which means I am disobeying one of the temple recommend questions, "do you associate.... etc.". My friends and peers at church would be equally shocked about my feelings. I appear to be molly Mormon mom, but inside I feel like I am disintegrating. I only keep up my temple recommend for family functions (weddings), and only wear garmies when the garmie lines would show (light colored shirt.) and even then, usually only to church. It feels so good to wear sexy underwear again! Ugh! I AM STUCK!!!
|Subject:||Re: It's nice to see another...|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:04|
|woman who has seen the light, not that it makes your situation any easier. My gosh, I can't imagine any right thinking man preferring to see his wife in garments rather than "sexy" underwear. I mean, women were made for sexy underwear.|
|Subject:||Good luck to you.|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:13|
|I hate to hear that someone feels sad and stuck in Mormonism.
It takes most people years to work their way out. Don't rush. I hope it goes well for you.
|Subject:||I'm really glad you're here.|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:20|
|It would be torture for you to suffer in silence
with out any outlet. We definitely have this board to support people
like you who aren't happy and want to make the break.
Even if your husband is die hard, it is possible to show him some things about the church very slowly that he can absorb to eventually notice something is wrong. If he is dedicated, what about introducing him to some unusual inconsistencies in the BoM, History of the Church and Discourses and other publications. There is enough there to plant a seed in his head. It may take a long time but if you did do it that slowly, he'd think he made the realization himself and all would be well in your relationship.
Always feel free to ask for help, proof, advice or anything else here.
|Subject:||I'm glad this is place you can stay sane with|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:31|
|It saved my butt. I hope it works out for you because I felt the same way as you do now when I bolted 9 months ago. My marriage might still fall apart, we'll see. I, however, haven't felt more healthy in my life. The church is such a crock, and the temple is supposed to be the highest level of spirituality? That is the biggest joke ever. I was showing a nevermo the 5 Points of Fellowship through the Veil today at work, it seems SO weird to me now that I EVER did such crazy crap.|
|Subject:||Have you read "Secret Ceremonies" from Deborah Laake?|
|Date:||Jun 12 19:35|
|You might find some comfort there to see that others have gone through what you are going through.|
|Subject:||I remember some of those same feelings last year before we got out.|
|Date:||Jun 13 01:36|
|My husband was the first to question the church. I
remember being really mad at him a lot. I couldn't answer his questions.
In retrospect, no one can.
Last year I had a temple recommend interview, and was honest enough to say I was having questions, the bishop signed the recommend anyway, and advised me to go to the temple ASAP. Didn't follow through with the stake interview.
I remember thinking, I'm so busy with work, school, and family. What if the temple is a place of dead works? Somehow I just kept coming up with excuses for not going to the temple.
A few months later, I went in for another temple recommend
interview, with the same questions, the bishop told me to make sure I went this time. Again, I didn't finish the interview with the stake.
I went to girls camp last summer. I'm a convert, and had never gone, so I thought it was going to be great. It was horrific, especially the "hold to the rod" blindfold guilt-inducing, traumatizing for the girls experience.
It kept on getting harder and harder to go to church after that. I would do a symptom check on Sundays, if I didn't feel 100%, I stayed home.
The last time I went to church I felt like the biggest hypocrite. The RS president was all gung-ho on reciting the RS motto every Sunday. I was the substitute conductor. I omitted the motto. I conducted the meeting. On the way out, my husband insisted that I talk to the bishop. I told the bishop I felt like a hypocrite, that I was questioning the doctrine, and that I was done.
Haven't been back. A few days after I made my decision to quit, the sun was out, a beautiful fall day, and somehow the sky was bluer, and everything was brighter.
It's really hard to have one foot in, have a calling, see all the discrepancies in the church and the doctrine.
Hopefully, your husband is open to your questioning. I wish you well.
|Subject:||Re: I have talked with hubby...|
|Date:||Jun 13 15:48|
|Author:||RAVEN - Dana|
My heart breaks when I read what you write, because I have been in similar places. I won't go into detail about my life for now, except to say that I got myself and all four of my children away from the church 12 years ago. I was born and raised in the church. Leaving it was unbelievably difficult emotionally. The guilt and all.. Anyway, life is incredibly wonderful now. My kids are healthy and happy and so am I. Anyway, I have just gone on-line with a website that I think you will like, take a look at www.womenspirituality-resource.com Let me know what you think. Isn't this site nice - lets us know we're not alone!!!
Your sister in strength - not oppression,
|Subject:||Oh, sadmom, even way back yonder in my TBM days|
|Date:||Jun 13 16:16|
|I often heard tales from women about how much they
dreaded the temple. I was a young virginal BYU student when my brother's
wife started making noises about it. She was so depressed about her
experience therein she couldn't get out of bed nor stop crying for the
first few weeks of their marriage. Her husband was completely floored.
He could not see what she didn't like about it at all.
She told me that once in a RS class, another woman had said right out loud that she didn't like the temple at all, and that veiling her face made her feel inferior. My SIL went and spoke to her after class and they became great friends.
There are a lot of women who feel this way, including active, believing Mormons who can't make heads nor tails about it. They just don't talk about it because they're worried about getting their entrails ripped from their bodies....he he
|Subject:||Re: I have talked with hubby...|
|Date:||Jun 13 16:48|
|I was in your situation last year. My TBM hubby
wishes I would go back to church, but I won't. I quit going when my TBM
daughter got married in the temple, and I would not get a temple
recommend just to see her get married. I decided then it was time to do
what was best for me.
But I know how hard it is to go just to keep up appearances. I did this until she got married, and have not been back since. It was hard at first with my hubby, he would try to convince me that JS was a prophet, and what a big mistake I was making. But I am so glad I quit going just to please my family.
I want to have my name removed since we had a "temporal" marriage before we went to the temple. I told him I honor the first marriage, and will always love him. So far things have worked out. We don't talk about religion, and everything is fine. I don't go VT or HT with him, and I don't allow anyone to come over.
But there are compassionate folks here who have been through what you are going through. It took me months to even post here, but I am so glad I did.
You are among friends here, and I am glad to welcome you here. You may have posted already, I do not get to surf here everyday.
|Subject:||Whats the point of the temple?|
|Date:||Jun 03 17:45|
|I know the Mormon response to this- to seal families
etc. However there's other side to the hand shakes etc. I never
believed they were actually to be done to get into the Celestial K- and know very
few members who did- So what is the point? What does it represent?
Please don't answer with "satanic" etc... I want to know the logical reasons of it.
|Date:||Jun 03 18:08|
|The temple is a manifestation of cult behavior,
providing a means to distinguish the insiders from the outsiders.
It provides a mechanism, as many cults do, to provide a cult name for the individual (sort of taking away his own identity). It provides the rules for acceptable and deviant behavior which define the cult. It extracts an oath to protect the cult.
It is essentially exclusive club membership for paying dues. The club clothes and signals help bond the members. It provides ritual and magic.
When I was just a kid, I wanted to start a club with a couple of my friends in the neighborhood. I wanted us to have special code names, a special club signal, and some visible button or color socks for only the members. I wanted secrets and commitments involved with the club. I came up with this thinking I was unique and our club would be something magical.
The temple is an extension of the club mentality for grownups.
|Subject:||Dagny is right on ...|
|Date:||Jun 03 18:39|
|JS kept promising that there would be a special endowment, the washing and anointing that was originally done was a little short of substance. Subsequently, it helps keep everyone in a "club", promotes tithes, etc.|
|Subject:||"Secret Ceremonies" mentions the club mentality|
|Date:||Jun 04 03:40|
|I remember one quote from "Secret Ceremonies" where Laake said that "God apparently never got out of the stage where he won't let people into his tree fort without the password and handshakes." Although I never went to the temple, I get the feeling that it's just the cult/club mentality of the Morg.|
|Subject:||It's also keeps younger people active|
|Date:||Jun 04 04:01|
|Author:||Bye Bye Morgie|
|Growing up Mormon, it would be a huge disappointment not to go through and see for yourself what the temple is all about. The place where only the best members go and can't talk about. It's like finally getting accepted to the elite country club. The only thing is when I finally made it, I was so disappointed. I remember driving back from the temple being very let down.|
|Subject:||To keep you entrenched in fear so you'll pay your tithing. NT|
|Subject:||Actually, believe it or not, the true purpose|
|Date:||Jun 03 19:14|
|of temples is to reveal the mysteries.
Temples over the ages have been built for this sole reason, including the modern lds temples.
Whether they actually do so or not is questionable, and not so open to debate.
I guess you would really have to ask an initiate how successful the mysteries have been revealed to them via their own temple. And go from there.
|Date:||Jun 03 19:21|
|Interesting. While I see the whole "Cult"
mentality of keeping people in line by special membership- mysteries is
more of what I'm interested in.
I know going through it very few people could answer questions about what the clothing represented or the gestures. I'm sure somewhere there is a meaning or maybe not- maybe that's the point... what better way to keep people in line if the answers were never there- "what does this mean? Pray harder, come more often etc..."
|Subject:||Actually, as I understand|
|Date:||Jun 04 02:39|
|the mysteries, the lds endowment does a decent job
of presenting them in a very concealed manner.
Which I suppose is a good thing.
|Subject:||Why do you suppose it a "good thing"?|
|Date:||Jun 04 02:47|
> the mysteries, the lds endowment does a decent job of presenting them in a very concealed manner.
> Which I suppose is a good thing.
Forget about the question of whether "the mysteries" are equivalent to the "lds endowment", I'm wondering why you suppose this is a "good thing" (mysteries presented in a concealed manner)?
|Subject:||That's an easy one:|
|Date:||Jun 04 02:52|
|because they are supposed to be.
You don't throw pearls before swine. The mysteries have always been presented in a veiled manner, that way those who aren't supposed to "get it" don't, and those who are, do.
|Date:||Jun 04 03:21|
|So children are pigs because they don't "get
You're too easy, rpm.
Allen, who'd pun "rpm" but it'd be too easy.
|Subject:||Not what I said.|
|Date:||Jun 04 03:30|
|I alluded to something Attributed to Jesus in the
New Testament, in case you didn't catch that. It's a met-a-phor. In case
you didn't catch that either.
It means: you shouldn't expose/offer things of intrinsic value to those who will not appreciate nor understand them. I'm confident every culture in the world understands and abides by this unwritten concept. It actually goes without saying.
And, FYI: children actually live the mysteries without having to understand them. As adults, it's precisely when we lose our own innocence in childhood that we specifically need to re-learn and re-live the mysteries.
|Subject:||There is NOTHING behind the mystery|
|Date:||Jun 04 04:37|
|There is a mystery but there is NO answer behind it.
That's precisely why it's put together that way. So that a person will
endlessly ponder and wonder over what it's all supposed to mean and try
to do even better so that they can be "worthy" of figuring
this great "mystery" out.
The temple ceremony is absolutely nothing but a patched together, non-sensical bunch of gibberish and when you get thru the ceremony, you get to go sit in a big white peaceful room where you get a chance to chill and figure out what you want to eat for dinner. It's a joke...only it's not funny. It's a club within a club. A carrot on a stick designed to promote even more control over a person.
I know what you're trying to get at here rpm but consider the fact that there may be no answer at all. That is much more powerful than a "solvable" mystery. It's an unsolvable puzzle. One of those things people will try to figure out for hours and hours and never get the answer. You know, like one of those optical illusions that you look at endlessly trying to figure out how they did it. If there were an answer, it would have leaked out years and years and years ago.
The only point I see about the temple is that great big spire with a stupid golden bugler sitting on top of it.
|Subject:||You get it.|
|Date:||Jun 04 16:43|
|Great response, BTW. I was wondering if anyone was
going to explain the mystery hidden in the lds temples.
The mystery is solved as you have apparently done. You said: "when you get thru the ceremony, you get to go sit in a big white peaceful room where you get a chance to chill and figure out what you want to eat for dinner."
Which is precisely what the mystery is all about: life.
Get out and have one!
Glad you got it. Unfortunately, Many don't.
|Date:||Jun 04 18:26|
I don't follow the board closely enough to know if you are still TBM---some of your posts in this thread lead me to think you are (please excuse me if this idea is offensive to you).
My question for you is, what mysteries is the temple supposed to teach us? And if no one ever can figure them out, then what benefit is the whole damn thing? I, and many others I know, were faithful temple attendees as members, and did our very best to keep all of the rules of the church. However, none of us ever learned anything about the mysteries of God, life, the universe, or anything else, for that matter. So please explain further what you meant.
|Subject:||No offense. I'm not TBM.|
|Date:||Jun 04 22:16|
|But still attend and socialize on occasion. My wife
and kids are, mostly.
I didn't say noone could understand them, only that most don't, I fear.
You said: "and did our very best to keep all of the rules of the church. However, none of us ever learned anything about the mysteries of God, life, the universe, or anything else, for that matter."
Which leads me to believe that you get it. If you got out.
Read my post below called "You get it."
Hopefully, you learned that you can't keep all the rules of the lds church. The temple is designed, IMO, to get you to realize that. Once you realize that principle, accept yourself as you are, and take charge of your own life, becoming your own prophet, seer, revelator, god or goddess, so to speak, then you have pretty much learned the mystery.
You don't need to go back to the temple when you have that figured out, now do you?
You get to love life, through all its diversity, good or bad. You don't have to struggle with anything, anymore.
|Subject:||I agree with you about learning to become our own source of truth, but...|
|Date:||Jun 05 14:47|
|I still don't understand how the temple is supposed
to teach one that. Your posts indicate that the temple ceremony is
purposely designed to lead us to that conclusion. I don't see any
inspiration or greater understanding behind the temple ceremony AT ALL.
I think it's a bunch of hokey, mind-numbing, sexist drivel intended to
brainwash and tighten control over us. I learned to be my own authority
and got a life IN SPITE OF the temple, not because of it.
BTW, thanks for responding to my question :).
|Subject:||I think it works this way:|
|Date:||Jun 05 18:05|
|You learn that everything taught in the endowment is
ridiculously beyond human apprehension: What? I'm supposed to do THAT?
and that? And now THIS? Come on now, that's impossible! No can do.
And then you go through the veil, hook back up with your spouse who has been separated from you since you entered the temple, sit together and chill for a few, then they rush you out back into the world, to take care of things that really matter.
I think that is what it is all about. You don't "get it" until after you get out. And that is precisely what you are supposed to do. To go back means you didn't get it before.
|Subject:||House of the Lord|
|Date:||Jun 03 23:14|
|Snippet's from the first chapter (A Pre-view of the
Subject) of Talmage's "House of the Lord":
- A place specially set apart for service regarded as sacred, in a more restricted sense, a building constructed for and exclusively devoted to sacred rites and ceremonies.
- The abode of Diety; the house of the Lord.
- There were always inner precincts set aside for consecrated priests.
-Not for ordinary worship, but for the most solemn ceremonials. Highest and most sacred ordinances characteristic for the specific time period.
- Visible and material.
- To distinguish from other religions.
- Requires the holy priesthood to be effective.
- Requires sacrifice
- Allows the closest communion between the Lord himself and the Holy Priesthood
- Binding on both earth and beyond the grave.
From the third chapter (Need of temples in the Present Dispensation):
- Necessity for obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
- Vicarious Service of the Living for the Dead.
- Authority to Labor in Behalf of the Dead.
Chapter 4 (Modern Temple Ordinances):
- Baptism for the dead
- Ordination and Endowment
- Sealing in Marriage, other sealing ordinances.
Hey, you asked. :-/
|Subject:||washing & anointing in the temple tears down the last bastion of personal boundaries|
|Date:||Jun 03 23:33|
|& gives the Mormon Church the right to all of
you, including your naked body.
It is the ultimate in total and complete control of a person and is done almost without them even knowing what happened.
|Date:||Jun 03 23:55|
|To further commit the members to stay faithful. You
know the creepy moment in the temple when Satan threatens any who dare
break temple covenants? Not only is this a shameless scare tactic, I
think it is pretty effective. One spends much of the time in the
endowment making promises to commit your all to Mormonism, in front of
God, angels,and witnesses. "God will not be mocked", and if
you break your covenants, watch out! And by the way, if you don't go
through the temple and make all these promises, kiss eternal life and
your eternal family good bye! Not much of a choice. What a sham.
It is so transparent what ole Joe was trying to do, yet it is pretty effective. You gotta hand him that. He has snookered a lot of people.
|Subject:||It was often during that precise moment in the session|
|Date:||Jun 04 03:11|
|when I learned that I could be in his power, that I
felt the strongest warm fuzzies.
|Subject:||yes...that IS weird|
|Date:||Jun 04 04:49|
|look I hate to follow you around rpm but you do say some things that seem a little bizarre to me. So please expound on this a little so that I can get just a little more flavor on what you're saying. Are you saying that it was a delusional feeling or are you saying that the more you pondered on something the more you felt close to it? Do you think this "being" you felt close to was actually God or something? I wouldn't discount that it's possible to get closer to God (if you believe) by merely thinking about him. But if this was a true feeling from God are you somehow attributing this feeling to the morgue ceremony? What did they give toward that? A moment in time to dwell on something, or was it more? Do they have some window that opens thru the temple ceremony that most of us haven't experienced...and if so, why leave the morgue? Elaborate if you will...I'd love to hear the answer.|
|Date:||Jun 05 16:03|
|I'd like to know how much of this is Joe and how
much of this is Brigham. My guess is that Brigham had an awful lot to do
with developing the temple ceremonies after Joseph died. I think you
would probably trace temple recommends and the tithing requirement to
Brigham and the folks after Joe. And who knows what they did to develop
this ceremony beyond what Joe had done.
> It is so transparent what ole Joe was trying to do, yet it is pretty effective. You gotta hand him that. He has snookered a lot of people.
|Subject:||It's an important step in the brainwashing process|
|Date:||Jun 04 03:55|
|Author:||Bye Bye Morgie|
|You are told to live worthy to go to it some day.
You are told to live worthy to get married there. You are told the
sacred temple ceremonies are the gateway to becoming a God or Goddess
yourself if you live worth of it. You are given a glimpse of the temple
by doing baptisms for the dead.
The temple simply means more mind control and taking even more of your freedom. Your life is never the same after you are stuck in them ugly garments.
|Subject:||Be still and contemplate universe Weedhopper...|
|Date:||Jun 04 23:13|
|I really think that much of the insight,
inspiration, warm fuzzies etc. etc. that people experience in the temple
are purely a result of being quiet for a change. I think if a person
were to go alone somewhere nice and just sit for a long time in quiet
solitude that they would have the EXACT same experiences that people
claim they get at the temple. I know that when I've gone in the past I
did enjoy being in clean white robes in a clean fairly attractive
building listening to soothing music while watching a nature film with
commentary. It just felt nice somehow. The whole "non-movie"
part of the ceremony I didn't really like much. All of the hype is not a
result of anything unique to the temple. It's a result of having a quiet
mind. We live in a VERY NOISY world. How seldom do we take the time to
One thing I've heard is that the prayer circle is a very occult practice which literally bonds the participants together. I've often wondered if the reason I am still so confused and not ready to leave completely is because of wearing my garments? I think that they bind us to this whole group somehow. It seems that when a person finally has the courage to take the things off for good that they now have the ability to see clearly and get out. Of course how come I can see that even though I'm wearing the sacred Fruit of the Looms?
I have always understood that the various signs, tokens, and penalties are going to be a very literal occurrence in the afterlife. It seems strange that there would actually be some fearful angel standing at a gate waiting for a password. I have the feeling that if it were true he wouldn't ask but would simply wait for those "in the know" to initiate the contact. It all seems so silly and unnecessary to me. I tried to talk to my dad about this and all I got was another preachy sermon that went round and round without ever addressing my core doubts.
Regarding the washings and anointings. I was actually disappointed somehow that it was not an actual washing and anointing. The church makes such a big deal about how you don't baptize by sprinkling. How on earth do you wash with a fingertip dipped in water. Even though I didn't want to be touched anywhere private I was surprised that when they washed and anointed my "loins, that I might be fruitful and replenish..." that they touched me in the small of my back. Not quite the wicked stuff I'd been lead to expect from the sources I had available at the time.