Subject: How did Alvin & Samuel Smith die?
Date: Jun 05 07:57
Author: Tia
Mail Address:

Is there any suspicion about their respective deaths? Someone suggested that Bro. Breed 'em Young may have done Samuel in.

Does anyone really understand the length & depth of recovery from moism? Every little thing I have been taught about the church, Joseph Smith, etc. is a lie. The lies are so invasive & pervasive, or was I exceptionally gullible?

Subject: Poison is suspected in both cases.
Date: Jun 05 08:38
Author: Perry Noid
Mail Address:

Alvin was likely unintentionally poisoned by his doctor in 1823. And Samuel was possibly intentionally poisoned by an agent of Brigham Young in 1844. (Samuel was considered by many to be well ahead of Brigham Young in the contest for succession to Joseph Smith, but suddenly fell ill and died on July 30, 1844--barely a month after the deaths of his brothers, Joseph and Hyrum.)

Here are some brief references on the subject:

Another incident illustrates how primitive medical care was during the first half of the nineteenth century. Less than two months after Joseph Smith was visited by the Angel Moroni on September 21, 1823, Joseph's oldest brother, Alvin became sick with "bilious colic" (which we now think was acute appendicitis). A Dr. Greenwood treated him by administering at least one heavy dose of calomel, a purgative now known to be a poison. Alvin died on November 19, 1823 (p.p.1-2).

Quinn argues that Willard Richards instructed Hosea Stout, a former Danite and police chief of Nauvoo, to poison Samuel Smith. He died not long after Joseph died. While most of the church leaders were away from Nauvoo at the time, the church leadership quickly split along the lines of polygamy. Those who favored the continued practice of polygamy and secret ordinances were partial to Brigham Young, and wanted to wait until the Quorum of Twelve Apostles returned to Nauvoo before choosing a successor. Those who were opposed to the practice of polygamy and secret ordinances favored the leadership of William Marks. Sidney Rigdon quickly made a proposal to become guardian of the church, and Marks threw his support behind Rigdon. However, the day before the meeting to decide whether Rigdon should be appointed guardian, the Apostles returned to Nauvoo.

Subject: Repost from Deconstructor
Date: Jun 08 04:10
Author: Cattle Mutilator
Mail Address:

Subject: Did Brigham Young murder Joseph Smith's brother? (references)
Date: Apr 06 13:49
Author: Deconstructor

This troubling piece of information came from a church talk Brigham Young gave in 1857:

"And William Smith has asserted that I was the cause of the death of his brother Samuel, when brother Woodruff, who is here to day, knows that we were waiting at the depôt in Boston to take passage east at the very time when Joseph and Hyrum were killed. Brother Taylor was nearly killed at the time, and Doctor Richards had his whiskers nearly singed off by the blaze from the guns. In a few weeks after, Samuel Smith died, and I am blamed as the cause of his death."

- Prophet Brigham Young, July 1857, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p.77

I checked church history sources and found theses clues about the death of Joseph Smith's brother in Navuoo, who died little over a month after Joseph was killed:

"Samuel Harrison Smith, born in Tunbridge, Vt., March 13, 1808. Died July 30, 1844, broken hearted, and worn out with persecution. Aged 36. The righteous are removed from the evils to come."

- Times and Seasons, Vol.5, No.24, p.760

"Hyrum & Joseph was Murdered in Carthage Jail in Hancock Co[,] Illinois. Samuel Smith died in Nauvoo, supposed to have been the Subject of Conspiricy by Brigham Young."

- Joseph Smith Family Testimony, William Smith Notes Circa 1875, Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, p. 488

Why would such an accusation be layed against Brigham Young?

To understand the context, you have to remember that after Smith and Hyrum were killed, there was some conflict over who should be his successor. Brigham Young was not in Nauvoo when Smith was killed, but started to head back as soon as he heard the news. Meanwhile in Nauvoo, several potential leaders were positioning to take the reins of leadership. The most popular replacement was Samuel Smith, the brother of Joseph Smith. William Clayton had recorded Joseph declaring his brother William his successor if both he and Hyrum were killed.

But Brigham Young's first cousin and church apostle, William Richards insisted that nothing should be decided until Brigham Young could return to Nauvoo. However, many members did not want to wait, and more and more support was gathering behind Samuel Smith, Joseph Smith's brother, to become the next Prophet and leader of the church.

For a select few, this presented a problem because Samuel was totally against polygamy. It was looking like Samuel Smith would become the next prophet, and he had promised to denounce the practice of plural marriage.

Michael Quinn, from The Mormon Hierarchy : Origins of Power explains what happened next:

Then Samuel Smith suddenly became violently ill and died on 30 July 1844. This added suspicion of murder to the escalating drama. Council of Fifty member and physician John M. Bernhisel told William Smith that anti-Mormons had somehow poisoned his brother. William learned from Samuel's widow that Hosea Stout, a Missouri Danite and senior officer of Nauvoo's police, had acted as his brother's nurse. Stout had given him "white powder" medicine daily until his death. Samuel became ill within days of the discussion of his succession right, and by 24 July was "very sick." There had been enough talk about Samuel's succession claims that the newspaper in Springfield, Illinois, reported: "A son of Joe Smith [Sr.] it is said, had received the revelation that he was to be the successor of the prophet."

William Smith eventually concluded that Apostle Willard Richards asked Stout to murder (his brother) Samuel H. Smith. The motive was to prevent Samuel from becoming church president before Brigham Young and the full Quorum of Twelve arrived (in Navuoo). William's suspicions about Stout are believable since Brigham Young allowed William Clayton to go with the pioneer company to Utah three years later only because Stout threatened to murder Clayton as soon as the apostles left. Clayton regarded Hosea Stout as capable of homicide and recorded no attempt by Young to dispute that assessment concerning the former Danite.

One could dismiss William Smith's charge as a self-serving argument for his own succession claim, yet Samuel's daughter also believed her father was murdered. "My father was undoubtedly poisoned," she wrote. "Uncle Arthur Millikin was poisoned at the same time—the same doctors were treating my father and Uncle Arthur at the same time. Uncle Arthur discontinued the medicine-without letting them know that he was doing so. (Aunt Lucy [Smith Millikin] threw it in the fire). Father continued taking it until the last dose-he spit out and said he was poisoned. But it was too late—he died." Nauvoo's sexton recorded that Samuel Smith died of "bilious fever," the cause of death listed for two children but no other adults that summer.

This troubling allegation should not be ignored but cannot be verified. Nevertheless Clayton's diary confirms the efforts of Richards to avoid the appointment of a successor before his first cousin Brigham Young arrived. Stout's diary also describes several occasions when Brigham Young and the apostles seriously discussed having Hosea "rid ourselves" of various church members considered dangerous to the church and the apostles. Stout referred to this as "cut him off-behind the ears-according to the law of God in such cases." Stout's daily diary also makes no reference whatever to his threat to murder Clayton in 1847. When the Salt Lake "municipal high council" tried Hosea Stout for attempted murder, he protested that "it has been my duty to hunt out the rotten spots in the Kingdom." He added that he had "tried not to handle a man's case until it was right." Evidence does not exist to prove if the prophet's brother was such a "case" Stout handled.

- D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy : Origins of Power, p.152-153

Maybe not a testimony killer, but still a fascinating episode in the history of the church, and a revealing look into what faithful members recorded was going on among the "saints" in Nauvoo.Imagine what the Mormon Church would have been like if anti-polygamy Samuel hadn't suddenly died, but instead had become the second prophet of the church....

Subject: Thanks for that re-post.
Date: Jun 08 21:51
Author: Perry Noid
Mail Address:

In reading it, I was struck at how weak Briggy's defense was. He simply seemed to be relying on the "Hey I was out of town" alibi that Mafia types like to rely on after giving instructions to an agent who just happens to be "in town." It seems like he's counting on suckers not asking the next obvious question, i.e., "since Briggy and his pro-polygamy faction obviously were the prime beneficiaries of Sam Smith's untimely demise, doesn't it stand to reason that Briggy could have given instructions to a subordinate or have knowningly approved of the plan in advance? At the very least, isn't it possible that Briggy knew what happened after the fact and covered it up because it worked out so nicely for himself?" The pattern of denial by Briggy in this instance sure does feel similar to that used in the Mountain Meadows Massacre case. But it's also highly likely that Briggy literally got a "taste of his own medicine" since his own death followed a prolonged episode of painful, violent vomiting and discomfort that may have been the result of a revenge poisoning.

As usual, Deconstructor has compiled an impressive array of evidence. I hope that he'll see his way clear to continue making contributions like this to the board in the future.

I know people get disappointed with one aspect or another of the board from time to time. But the way I see it, this board is just a very large meeting place for exmos. There are literally hundreds of conversations going on at any given time. In this sense, it really is several different bulletin boards combined into one. I imagine that there are a lot of posters and lurkers who want to continue being able to read what Deconstructor has to contribute and are not even aware of what transpired with a handful of other posters in other conversations that made him want to take a break for awhile.

Subject: He said Brigham got a taste of his own medicine. Heh, heh. n/t

Subject: I don't think you were exceptionally gullible.
Date: Jun 05 09:01
Author: Perry Noid
Mail Address:

The fact that you are questioning things now shows that you are not gullible by nature. I was born into Mormonism and didn't seriously start questioning my assumption that it was all true until I was 19. It took me 5 years of questioning, research and doubts after that before I finally concluded that the weight of the evidence was overwhelmingly against the claims of Mormonism.

Most of us humans tend to do the best we can with the information that is available to us. The Mormon Church puts out only a one-sided story (mostly fiction) that promotes faith in Mormonism and uses an army of full-time missionaries, prestigious public relations firm and an impressive mass media system to promote the "official" Mormon history. The rest of the world is so uninterested in Mormonism that there have traditionally been only a handful of underfunded persons trying to tell the other side of the story.

Before the advent of easy Internet access, the other side of the story was difficult to find, unless you were determined and diligently looking for it. (And most Mormons are brainwashed into believing that anything that doesn't support the "official" history is anti-Mormon literature inspired by Satan himself.)

I started questioning before the Internet. Initially, about the only sources of "unapproved" information regarding Mormon history that I knew of were Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History" and the various articles and books put out by the Tanners. It took me a long time to work up the courage to even read them with an open mind, because I had already been conditioned to think of them as tools of Satan.

People who are questioning today can finally see the other side of the story just as easily as they can see the "official" story peddled by the Church. You can now learn more in two weeks of concentrated Internet-based research than I was able to learn in a couple years of physical library-based research.

Subject: I am angry it took me so long to learn.....
Date: Jun 05 12:26
Author: Tia
Mail Address:

the truth. You are so right, Perry Noid. The internet, & especially here, is a great place to learn. I started out by asking questions about the temple changes, money exchanged in the temples, etc. that no one would, or could, answer. Then someone gave me a book by Ogden Kraut, that prompted more questions. Then I read whatever I could get my hands on.

I have a friend who was raised in the RLDS faith. She talked to me about what they believe: Joseph's only mission was to bring forth the BoM - not a church, polygamy, priesthood, etc; that once the BoM goes into all the world the mission of the LDS church is completed; Joe's plural wives were added after he died; etc. This did not ring true, either.

Most all of the regular posters here are so far ahead of me & you most likely get weary of greenies like me, asking the same things over & over. But please, PLEASE Regular Posters - do not quit posting. I'm sure there are other places to search, but I like it here, warts & all. You all have helped me so much - I would be in a mell of a hess without you.

Thanks for helping me along this journey.

Subject: Hindsight is always 20/20
Date: Jun 05 14:34
Author: Dude
Mail Address:

When you want to believe, even grossly inadequate explanations are sufficient. It's only when your desire to know the truth exceeds your desire to believe that orthodox explanations are no longer good enough. So you start digging and asking more questions.

It could (and does) start with almost ANY question about the Church. Something as innocuous as "how did Samuel Smith die?" can lead to a whole string of surprising discoveries.

Question for Perry Noid: Was Samuel Smith simply a threat to the leadership of BY and the 12, or was Samuel on record as being against polygamy? I don't recall his name appearing in the Nauvoo polygamy intrigues on either side of the debate.

Subject: My understanding of the situation is that
Date: Jun 05 20:05
Author: Perry Noid
Mail Address:

Samuel was probably the last best hope that the Smith clan had to maintain a dominant leadership position in the Church.

If he had succeeded Hyrum to the office of Patriarch, that position could have been leveraged into a hereditary presidency, that only Smiths were eligible to attain. Samuel probably wasn't capable of being a strong leader like Joseph, or even Hyrum, but the Smith Clan was likely hoping that he would be able to hold things together long enough for Joe III to ascend to the throne. Samuel's claim, in addition to being supported by the fact that he was the eldest Smith male in line after Joe and Hyrum, was also supported by the fact that he was the third official convert to Mormonism, after Joe and Oliver.

So I believe that, first and foremost, he was a serious obstacle to the ambitions of the strong pro-polygamy faction that was coalescing behind Brigham.

I don't know whether or not Samuel would have continued to go along with polygamy, but my impression was that he was not an enthusiastic supporter and the remainder of the Smith clan would probably have intended to dump it all together, knowing that it would be a continuing source of trouble for their Church.

One biography of Samuel indicates that he had no plural wives, but only married his second wife after his first wife had died.

Here are some interesting bits of biographical info:

[Regarding the suspected assassination by poisoning:]

In 1892 William Smith charged that Willard Richards asked Hosea Stout, who was caring for Samuel, to murder him to prevent him from taking office before the Twelve could assemble.

Samuel's daughter Mary wrote in 1908 that her father and Arthur Milliken were poisoned at the same time and the same doctors were treathing both. Arthur discontinued taking the medicine but Samuel continued to the last dose, which "he spit out and said he was poisoned. But it was too late—he died."

[Regarding Samuel Smith's Recorded Marriages:]

Mary Bailey (1808–1841) md. August 13, 1834

Levira Clark (1815–1893) md. April 29, 1841

The above excerpts come from:

Subject: What happened to Don Carlos Smith?
Date: Jun 05 20:21
Author: Makurosu

He also died early. says 7 Aug 1841. That would have made him 25 when he died.

Subject: Oddly enough, poison is suspected in his death too....
Date: Jun 05 23:15
Author: Perry Noid
Mail Address:

Don Carlos was a vocal opponent of polygamy. And it has been said that he was very charismatic and good looking. He would have been a formidable opponent to the Danites and good-ol' boys who liked the idea of God-commanded adultery.

Here's an interesting chronology that sets out the suspicious circumstances of the death of Don Carlos:

Jun 1841
Don Carlos Smith denounces any who teach and practice plural marriage.

1 Jul 1841
Brigham Young and the others in the Twelve returning from England, arrive in Nauvoo [Brigham Young].

4 Aug 1841
Sidney Rigdon preaches baptism for the dead. However his influence in Nauvoo has waned to an all time low.

7 Aug 1841
Don Carlos Smith (Joseph's brother) dies.

15 Aug 1841
Don Carlos Smith (Joseph's son) dies.

27 Aug 1841
Robert Blashel Thompson (Joseph Smith's secretary), was an associate editor of the Times and Seasons in Nauvoo. From May to August 1841 he worked there with Don Carlos Smith. On 16 August 1841, at the age of 29, he was seized with the same disease that had stricken Don Carlos Smith, and died 9 days later. William Law later said he died under 'suspicious circumstances:' "I know that several men, six or seven, died under very suspicious circumstances. Among them were two secretaries of the prophet, Mulholland and Blaskel Thompson. I saw Mulholland die and the symptoms looked very suspicious to me. Dr. Foster, who was a very good physician, believed firmly that those six or seven men had been poisoned, and told me so repeatedly." Thompson and his future wife, Mercy Rachel Fielding, were baptized by Parley P. Pratt on May 21, 1836. She married Thompson June 4, 1837. The couple came to Quincy, Ill., in the spring of 1839 where Robert was temporarily employed as a writer for the "Quincy Argus." They were among the earliest settlers at Commerce, where Robert became a scribe/secretary for Joseph Smith and a "recorder" (or historian) for the Church.

Subject: Wow, thanks for that...
Date: Jun 06 00:05
Author: Makurosu
Mail Address

You know, the more I find out, the worse it gets. It seems like every time I have a suspicion about Mormon history, it's always correct and the worst thing imaginable.

Subject: Are there any other suspicious deaths?...
Date: Jun 06 07:20
Author: Tia
Mail Address:

Was it Parley P. Pratt who was killed in Arkansas? What was his stand on 'celestial marriage'? It was my understanding that he was killed by mobs. If so, was it really a mob, or danites?

Subject: Parley Pratt was killed .....
Date: Jun 06 15:08
Author: JD
Mail Address:

in Arkansas by the current husband of a woman Pratt had taken as a plural wife. According to Will Bagley, Pratt's death may have set off a chain of events that lead to the most suspicious deaths in the history of Mormonism: the Mountain Meadows Massacre. See Bagley's "Blood of the Prophets."

Subject: Yep, Parley married a gentile's wife--while she was still married to the gentile....
Date: Jun 06 18:33
Author: Perry Noid
Mail Address:

Here's an interesting account by Ann Eliza Webb (Brigham's Wife No.19 and one who successfully divorced the Gangster, Seer and Revelator) concerning what was known about the Parley P. Pratt affair in Utah at the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre:

The Arkansas members of the train, also, were objects of Mormon vengeance. Parley P. Pratt, one of the twelve apostles, and also one of the brightest intellectual lights in the Church of the Latter-Day Saints, was sent on a mission to California. where he proselyted with such vigor that many converts were made; among them a Mrs. Eleanor McLean, wife of one Hector McLean, and the mother of three children, who was induced to embrace Mormonism and polygamy as embodied in the person of the seductive apostle. The command to "leave all and follow me" was readily obeyed, especially as she was personally to add to the missionary's present pleasure and future glory, by becoming one of his numerous plural wives.

As there was no authority to marry them in a "legal" manner in this Gentile state. they were obliged to defer that ceremony until their arrival in "Zion." But in cases like this, which were often occurring to the missionary Saints, it was considered quite proper for the pair. who were in haste to wed, to "covenant together," and thereafter to be regarded as man and wife, without ministerial or judicial aid, until such time as they could celebrate their nuptials in the presence of saintly witnesses, and after the true saintly fashion. This covenant the Apostle Pratt and Mrs. McLean were not slow to make.

The news soon reached the husband that his wife was going to Utah with the Mormon Elder, and intended taking the children with her. This last design McLean frustrated by sending them to some relatives in one of the Southern States. He then informed his wife that she was at liberty to go where she chose, but that she must go alone, as he had placed the children beyond her reach.

She came to Utah, and immediately on her arrival was sealed to Parley, after having lived under a covenant with him for months. The mother-heart, however, yearned for her children; neither her new religion nor the fractional part of an apostle could fill the void left by the separation from them, and she determined to gain possession of them and bring them also to Utah. After much entreating, she succeeded in inducing her new husband to go to the States with her for the purpose of finding them. She went alone to the place where her children were at school, leaving Pratt in Arkansas, - which, by the way, was her husband's home. On reaching the town where her children were, she was obliged to assume a disguise. as McLean was there, having followed his children from California. She used every stratagem to obtain them, but only succeeded in carrying away one. She quickly made her way with him to Arkansas, and joined Parley, who was awaiting her there. Together they started to return to Utah, but were overtaken by McLean, who, maddened by the breaking up of his home, the seduction of his wife, and the abduction of his child, determined to wreak summary vengeance on the man who, under the guise of religion, and in the name of the Lord, whom he constantly blasphemed by taking His holy name upon his polluted lips, had wrecked his whole life's happiness.

Being examined before a magistrate, Mrs. McLean Pratt assumed all the responsibility of the abduction of the children. and the Apostle was honorably discharged. His friends, however, apprehended danger, and advised him to escape, if he could, for McLean was a violent man. They also offered him a couple of revolvers for his defence.

The Apostle fled, but McLean was on his trail. At length the wronged husband came within sight of his enemy, and pursued him like the avenger of blood. Pratt left the public road, endeavoring to reach a house not far distant; but McLean was too swift for him. Following him closely, with revolver drawn, he fired at the saintly seducer, but failed to touch him. Furious at Pratt's escape, McLean urged forward his horse, and, as he passed his enemy, made a lunge with his bowie-knife, and gave him a fatal thrust in his side. The wounded man fell from his horse instantly, and McLean fired again at the guilty wretch as he lay bleeding on the ground, and the ball penetrated his breast.

The bloody deed performed, McLean returned to Fort Smith, walked through the town with his friends, and in the evening took the passing steamer for the South. He took his child and left the mother to return to Utah, now doubly widowed and childless. The people of Arkansas upheld McLean. and it was considered that he had only done his duty in ridding the world of such a wolf in sheep's clothing.

But the Mormons were deeply infuriated; they held every Arkansas man personally responsible for the murder of their Apostle, whom they at once canonized as saint, and worshipped as martyr, and whose name, to this day, is spoken with reverence by them; and the fact that any of these emigrants were from that state, gave them, as they thought, an opportunity of revenging Pratt's death, at the same time that they avenged the murder of their Prophet. Many of them, too, were from the immediate neighborhood where McLean resided, and where Pratt was killed; and at least one of the number was said to have been interested in his assassination. The fact that Pratt had brought his death upon himself was not taken into consideration. They found no palliation for McLean's action in his wrecked home and blighted life; though no persons in the world are so quick to resent any, even fancied, interference with their families as the Mormons. Yet this is saintly consistency.

Subject: Actually, it would be more correct to say that Parley boinked the wife of a gentile
Date: Jun 08 00:00
Author: Perry Noid
Mail Address:

while she was still married to the gentile, since he hadn't bothered to get married to her except in his mind before the boinking commenced.

Subject: You can also learn more from this board(one cuss)
Date: Jun 08 02:47
Author: Adrienne
Mail Address:

I had found out about the MMM through the Internet, and other things through some reading on the true history, but I don't remember hearing about these other Smith relatives being poisoned. This is yet another reason the cult is full of violence and murder not found in the BOM, in fact it was done by the leaders. Breed em Young was one sick fuck if he resorted to poisoning a rival to his power.

Subject: Now I know why the official church "history" lessons always seemed so superficial.
Date: Jun 08 21:30
Author: Perry Noid
Mail Address:

I remember, especially when learning about Church history in Seminary, that there always seemed to be huge information gaps that were just ignored.

For example, we'd hear a few relatively detailed inspiring stories about Joe Smith and Oliver Cowdery and then virtually nothing about the rest of Oliver Cowdery's life other than that he "fell away for a time". We never heard a word about the fact that Oliver thought Joe's adultery was disgusting and thought that Joe was abusing his power. We never heard anything about Oliver's side of the story.

How much did we ever hear about Don Carlos Smith or his opposition to polygamy and his untimely death? Nothing in my recollection.

I think there were one or two faith-promoting stories about Samuel Smith as a missionary, but in Seminary I never heard one word about his opposition to polygamy, the strange timing of his death, or the fact that he was generally favored as Joe Smith's successor until his death put him out of the running--all of which are major historical facts that wouldn't be ignored unless the Church had something to hide.

I remember hearing in Seminary about Sidney Rigdon being puffed up with ambition that led him astray (supposedly because he wasn't humble enough to recognize Brigham's divine right to ascend to the throne, but when you think about it was any Mormon leader more arrogant and puffed up with ambition than Brigham??)

Oh the things we DIDN'T learn in Seminary. They speak volumes about the true nature of Mormonism and its power elite. The black holes in the Seminary Church History curriculum suggests that Boyd K. Packer--a.k.a., don't-tell-it-like-it-is Boyd--and his ilk have had their way with the Church Educational System and have made it into nothing more than a system of disinformation. This too is a historical fact.


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