Subject: Sharing your spouse with the Mormon Prophet
Date: Oct 21 22:29 2003
Author: Deconstructor
Mail Address:

"When the family organization was revealed from heaven—the patriarchal order of God, and Joseph began, on the right and the left, to add to his family, what a quaking there was in Israel. Says one brother to another, "Joseph says all covenants [previous marriages] are done away, and none are binding but the new covenants [marriage by priesthood sealing power]; now suppose Joseph should come and say he wanted your wife, what would you say to that?" "I would tell him to go to hell." This was the spirit of many in the early days of this Church. . . . What would a man of God say, who felt aright, when Joseph asked him for his money? [he would give it all willingly] Or if he came and said, "I want your wife?" "O yes," he would say, "here she is, there are plenty more" . . . Did the Prophet Joseph want every man's wife he asked for? He did not . . . the grand object in view was to try the people of God, to see what was in them. If such a man of God should come to me and say, "I want your gold and silver, or your wives," I should say, "Here they are, I wish I had more to give you, take all I have got." A man who has got the Spirit of God, and the light of eternity in him, has no trouble about such matters."
- Apostle Jedediah M. Grant, second counselor to Brigham Young and father of President Heber J. Grant, sermon delivered on 19 February 1854 (JD 2: 13-14)

Joseph Smith's Failed Proposals to Married Women

John Taylor's Wife, Leonora
"The Prophet went to the home of President Taylor, and said to him, 'Brother John, I WANT LEONORA.'" Taylor was stunned, but after walking the floor all night, the obedient elder said to Smith, "If GOD wants Leonora He can have her." Woodruff concluded: "That was all the prophet was after, to see where President Taylor stood in the matter, and said to him, Brother Taylor, I dont want your wife, I just wanted to know just where you stood."
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, John Mills Whitaker Journal, Nov. 1 1890; emphasis in original

Heber C. Kimball's Wife, Vilate
“During the summer of 1841, shortly after Heber's return from England, he was introduced to the doctrine of plural marriage directly through a startling test-a sacrifice which shook his very being and challenged his faith to the ultimate. He had already sacrificed homes, possessions, friends, relatives, all worldly rewards, peace, and tranquility for the Restoration. Nothing was left to place on the altar save his life, his children, and his wife. Joseph demanded for himself what to Heber was the unthinkable, his Vilate. Totally crushed spiritually and emotionally, Heber touched neither food nor water for three days and three nights and continually sought confirmation and comfort from God." Finally, after "some kind of assurance," Heber took Vilate to the upper room of Joseph's store on Water Street. The Prophet wept at this act of faith, devotion, and obedience. Joseph had never intended to take Vilate. It was all a test."
- Biography of Heber C. Kimball, "Heber C. Kimball, Mormon Patriarch and Pioneer." By Stanley B. Kimball, page 93.

Orson Pratt's Wife, Sarah
"Sometime in late 1840 or early 1841, Joseph Smith confided to his friend that he was smitten by the "amiable and accomplished" Sarah Pratt and wanted her for "one of his spiritual wives, for the Lord had given her to him as a special favor for his faithfulness" (emphasis in original). Shortly afterward, the two men took some of Bennett's sewing to Sarah's house. During the visit, as Bennett describes it, Joseph said, "Sister Pratt, the Lord has given you to me as one of my spiritual wives. I have the blessings of Jacob granted me, as God granted holy men of old, and as I have long looked upon you with favor, and an earnest desire of connubial bliss, I hope you will not repulse or deny me." "And is that the great secret that I am not to utter," Sarah replied. "Am I called upon to break the marriage covenant, and prove recreant to my lawful husband! I never will." She added, "I care not for the blessings of Jacob. I have one good husband, and that is enough for me." But according to Bennett, the Prophet was persistent. Finally Sarah angrily told him on a subsequent visit, "Joseph, if you ever attempt any thing of the kind with me again, I will make a full disclosure to Mr. Pratt on his return home. Depend upon it, I will certainly do it." "Sister Pratt," the Prophet responded, "I hope you will not expose me, for if I suffer, all must suffer; so do not expose me. Will you promise me that you will not do it?" "If you will never insult me again," Sarah replied, "I will not expose you unless strong circumstances should require it." "If you should tell," the Prophet added, "I will ruin your reputation, remember that."
(Article "Sarah M. Pratt" by Richard A. Van Wagoner, Dialogue, Vol.19, No.2, p.72. Also see:

William Law's Wife, Jane
"William Law, a former counselor in the First Presidency, wrote in his 13 May 1844 diary: "[Joseph] ha[s] lately endeavored to seduce my wife, and ha[s] found her a virtuous woman" The Laws elaborated on this in a public meeting shortly thereafter. "The Prophet had made dishonorable proposals to [my] wife . . . under cover of his asserted 'Revelation,' " Law stated. He further explained that Joseph came to the Law home in the middle of the night when William was absent and told Jane that "the Lord had commanded that he should take spiritual wives, to add to his glory." Law then called on his wife to corroborate what he had said. She did so and further explained that Joseph had "asked her to give him half her love; she was at liberty to keep the other half for her husband" Jane refused the Prophet, and according to William Law's 20 January 1887 letter to the Salt Lake Tribune, Smith then considered the couple apostates. "Jane had been speaking evil of him for a long time . . . slandered him, and lied about him without cause," Law reported Smith as saying. "My wife would not speak evil of . . . anyone . . . without cause," Law asserted. "Joseph is the liar and not she. That Smith admired and lusted after many men's wives and daughters, is a fact, but they could not help that. They or most of them considered his admiration an insult, and treated him with scorn. In return for this scorn, he generally managed to blacken their reputations--see the case of . . . Mrs. Pratt, a good, virtuous woman."
("Mormon Polygamy" by Richard S. Van Wagoner, page 44)

Hiram Kimball's wife, Sarah
Sarah M. Kimball, a prominent Nauvoo and Salt Lake City Relief Society leader was also approached by the Prophet in early 1842 despite her solid 1840 marriage to Hiram Kimball. Sarah later recalled that
"Joseph Smith taught me the principle of marriage for eternity, and the doctrine of plural marriage. He said that in teaching this he realized that he jeopardized his life; but God had revealed it to him many years before as a privilege with blessings, now God had revealed it again and instructed him to teach with commandment, as the Church could travel [progress] no further without the introduction of this principle." ("LDS Biographical Encyclopedia" By Elder Andrew Jensen, 6:232, 1887)
Sarah Kimball, like Sarah Pratt, was committed to her husband, and refused the Prophet's invitation, asking that he "teach it to someone else." Although she kept the matter quiet, her husband and Smith evidently had difficulties over Smith's proposal. On 19 May 1842, at a Nauvoo City Council meeting, Smith jotted down and then "threw across the room" a revelation to Kimball which declared that "Hiram Kimball has been insinuating evil, and formulating evil opinions" against the Prophet, which if he does not desist from, he "shall be accursed." Sarah remained a lifetime member of the Church and a lifelong wife to Hiram Kimball.
- "LDS Biographical Encyclopedia" By Elder Andrew Jensen, 6:232, 1887, Official History of the Church 5: 12-13,

Joseph Smith's Successful Proposals to Married Women

Adam Lightner's wife, Mary
Mary Elizabeth Rollins, already married to non-Mormon Adam Lightner since 11 August 1835, was one of the first women to accept a polyandrous proposal from Joseph Smith. "He was commanded to take me for a wife," she wrote in a 21 November 1880 letter to Emmeline B. Wells. "I was his, before I came here," she added in an 8 February 1902 statement. Brigham Young secretly sealed the two in February 1842 when Mary was eight months pregnant with her son George Algernon Lightner. She lived with her real husband Adam Lightner until his death in Utah many years later. In her 1880 letter to Emmeline B. Wells, Mary explained: "I could tell you why I stayed with Mr. Lightner. Things the leaders of the Church do not know anything about. I did just as Joseph told me to do, as he knew what troubles I would have to contend with." She added on 23 January 1892 in a letter to John R. Young: "I could explain some things in regard to my living with Mr. L[ightner] after becoming the Wife of Another (Joseph Smith), which would throw light, on what now seems mysterious--and you would be perfectly satisfied with me. I write this; because I have heard that it had been commented on to my injury"
(Lightner, Mary E. Statement. 8 Feb. 1902; Lightner to Emmeline B. Wells, 21 Nov. 1880; Lightner to John R. Young, 25 Jan. 1892. George A. Smith Papers. Special Collections. University of Utah)

Orson Hyde's Wife, Marinda
Marinda Nancy Johnson, sister of Apostles Luke and Lyman Johnson, married Orson Hyde in 1834. A year before Hyde returned from Jerusalem in 1843, Marinda was sealed to Joseph Smith in April of 1842, though she lived with Orson until their divorce in 1870. Many suspect Joseph Smith was the actual father of Marinda's son Frank Henry who was born on 23 Jan 1845, for two reasons. First, because Marinda had been the polygamous wife of Smith since Apr 1842. Second, because Smith had sent her first husband, Orson Hyde, on a mission to Washington on April 4, 1844 "immediately" after a meeting with Joseph Smith (History of the Church, pg. 286). The gestation period for a human is on average 266 days (not 9 months), which would date the conception to early May 1844. Of course, 266 is an average date and the figures vary. To give you an idea of the range, only four percent of pregnancies are actually carried two weeks or more beyond the average time (Guttmacher, 1983). Frank Henry was born on January 23, 1845. Orson Hyde left for Washington April 4, 1844. The difference in these two dates is 294 days! That is almost a month longer than expected and is basically physiologically impossible, especially considering that Orson Hyde had not returned to Nauvoo until August 6, 1844.
(Andrew Jenson, Church Chronology, August 6, 1844) Marinda later divorced Orson Hyde and voiced her disgust of polygamy.

Windsor Lyon's Wife, Sylvia
Sylvia P. Sessions, married to Windsor P. Lyon, gave birth to a daughter on 8 February 1844, less than five months before Joseph Smith's martyrdom. That daughter, Josephine, related in a 24 February 1915 statement that prior to her mother's death in 1882 "she called me to her bedside and told me that her days on earth were about numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and all others but which she now desired to communicate to me." Josephine's mother told her she was "the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the Prophet at the time that her husband Mr. Lyon was out of fellowship with the Church."
(Affidavit to Church Historian Andrew Jenson, 24 Feb. 1915)

Norman Buell's Wife, Prescindia
Prescindia D. Huntington, a faithful Mormon and married woman in Nauvoo, was also a polyandrous wife of Joseph Smith. Prescindia had married Norman Buell in 1827 and had two sons by him before joining Mormonism in 1836. She was secretly sealed to Joseph Smith by her brother Dimick on 11 December 1841, though she continued to live with her husband Buell until 1846, when she left him to marry Heber C. Kimball. In a "letter to my eldest grand-daughter living in 1880," she explained that Norman Buell had left the Church in 1839, but that "the Lord gave me strength to Stand alone & keep the faith amid heavy persecution."

Henry Jacob's Wife, Zina
Prescindia's twenty-year-old sister Zina was living in the Joseph Smith home when Elder Henry B. Jacobs married her in March 1841. According to family records, when Zina and Henry asked Joseph Smith why he had not honored them by performing their marriage, Smith replied that "the Lord had made it known to him that [Zina] was to be his Celestial wife." Believing that "whatever the Prophet did was right, without making the wisdom of God's authorities bend to the reasoning of any man," the devout Elder Jacobs consented for six-months-pregnant Zina to be sealed to Joseph Smith 27 October 1841. Some have suggested that the Jacobs's marriage was "unhappy" and that the couple had separated before her sealing to Joseph Smith. But, though sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity, Zina continued her connubial relationship with her husband Henry Jacobs. On 2 February 1846, pregnant with Henry's second son, Zina was re-sealed by proxy to the murdered Joseph Smith and in that same session was “sealed for time" to Brigham Young. Faithful Henry B. Jacobs stood by as an official witness to both ceremonies.
("History of Henry Bailey Jacobs." By Ora J. Cannon, page 5-7. also see "Recollections of Zina D. Young" by Mary Brown Firmage)

Zina and Henry lived together as husband and wife until the Mormon pioneers reached Mt. Pisgah, Iowa. At this temporary stop on the pioneer trail, Brigham Young announced that "it was time for men who were walking in other men's shoes to step out of them. Brother Jacobs, the woman you claim for a wife does not belong to you. She is the spiritual wife of brother Joseph, sealed up to him. I am his proxy, and she, in this behalf, with her children, are my property. You can go where you please, and get another, but be sure to get one of your own kindred spirit" (Hall 1853, 43-44). President Young then called Jacobs on a mission to England. Witnesses to his departure commented that he was so emotionally ill they had to "put him on a blanket and carry him to the boat to get him on his way".
("Short Sketch of the Life of Henry B. Jacobs" By Ora J. Cannon)

Henry returned from his mission and settled in California. But he was still in love with his wife Zina, now a plural wife of Brigham Young. Henry's letters to his wife Zina were heartrending. On 2 September 1852 he wrote: "O how happy I should be if I only could see you and the little children, bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh." "I am unhappy," Henry lamented, "there is no peace for poor me, my pleasure is you, my comfort has vanished.... O Zina, can I ever, will I ever get you again, answer the question please." In an undated Valentine he added:
Zina my mind never will change from Worlds without Ends, no never, the same affection is there and never can be moved I do not murmur nor complain of the handlings of God no verily, no but I feel alone and no one to speak to, to call my own. I feel like a lamb without a mother, I do not blame any person or persons, no--May the Lord our Father bless Brother Brigham and all purtains unto him forever. Tell him for me I have no feelings against him nor never had, all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our god Joseph [Smith]." ("Short Sketch of the Life of Henry B. Jacobs" By Ora J. Cannon)

It was the rule rather than the exception for Smith to encourage a polyandrous wife to remain with her legal husband.
Faithful Mormon Joseph Kingsbury even wrote that he served as a surrogate husband for Joseph Smith:
"I according to Pres. Joseph Smith & council & others, I agreed to stand by Sarah Ann Whitney [sealed to Smith 27 July 1843] as though I was supposed to be her husband and a pretended marriage for the purpose of shielding them from the enemy and for the purpose of bringing out the purposes of God." (Elder Joseph Kingsbury, "History of Joseph Kingsbury Written by His Own Hand," page 5, Utah State Historical Society)
Did Joseph Smith have sex with his wives?

Did Joseph Smith emotionally blackmail these women for sex?

Read the detailed history of each of Joseph Smith's 33 plural wives in Todd Compton's excellent book In Sacred Loneliness.

For some details on the other married women Joseph married and impregnated, see:

Subject: FAIR paper defends Smith's marriages to other men's wives...
Date: Oct 21 22:42
Author: Deconstructor

Here's a pro-Mormon article that you should print and share with your TBM friends and family. In attempting to explain why Joseph Smith married so many of his friend's wives, FAIR has documented Smith's polygamous activities.

TBMs can no longer deny it. Now even FAIR, the great Mormon apologist organization, is conceding that Joseph Smith proposed and married other men's wives. And their explanations are ridiculous!


How will your TBM friends and family respond?

Subject: Re: FAIR paper defends Smith's marriages to other men's wives...
Date: Oct 21 23:34
Author: Sarah

I love how in the FAIR article they fail to mention the fact that there was a sexual element to all of these marriages. That is a pretty important detail to be leaving out.

Another lie that the article perpetuates is the idea that future husbands of these women married them so that they could support them financially and otherwise. Most of these women were for the most part left in the dust. They would have been a lot better off married to one person who could truly take care of them and their children.

Subject: Re: FAIR paper defends Smith....what else can we expect them to do?
Date: Oct 22 16:48
Author: wondering too

Thanks again Deconstructor. As usual you bring the light of day into the dark shadows of mormondom. It is not amazing to me that FAIR decided to leave out the sexual content of the marriages. What is amazing is that they do it with such blatant dishonesty and disregard for complete disclosure of facts from diaries.

JS was right. This practice will be the downfall of the church. It was the beginning of the end for me.

Can we say cult?

Subject: The FAIR paper does mention sex albeit obliquely
Date: Oct 22 18:11
Author: In the Know
Mail Address:

From FAIR's "A Tale of Two Marriage Systems":

"Whichever interpretation plays out to be correct [**in questioning whether Joseph Smith was the biological parent of Josephine Fisher, who claimed she was] the outcome is irrelevant. While it may seem more understandable, if not palatable, for some to comprehend these marriages without this [**sexual] dimension, the fact remains that such marriages did not prohibit its occurrence. Indeed, one important aspect of plural marriage was to bring forth and raise up those noble spirits, reserved for this dispensation, unto Christ. This was not simply a mechanical
process of randomly replicating humans. It was
to be done via select parentage that could place those
spirits in an environment that would develop their divine
potential. In this respect, barriers to marriage were
removed for Joseph.

"[Joseph] believed he had been given powers that
transcended civil law. Claiming sole responsibility
for binding and unbinding marriages on earth and in heaven, he did not consider it necessary to obtain civil marriage licenses or divorce decrees. Whenever he deemed it appropriate he could release a woman from her earthly marriage and seal her to himself or to
another with no stigma of adultery.54

"If there was an intimate dimension in every one of these particular marriages, it is ultimately a matter of no consequence as he “could not commit adultery with wives who belonged to him.”55

[** my comments follow asterisks.]

There could be no possibility for adultery if sex wasn't happening. Todd Compton, in "Sacred Loneliness" documents that sexual relations did happen in some of Joseph's ploygamous or polyandrous relationships (but not all). But for FAIR to make the "barriers are removed" excuse they made is nothing short of amazing, and shocking to anyone who doesn't take issues such as adultery lightly.

Mormons would be up in arms, in most cases, if they really new about this. The fact is they don't. And where they hear about it they really don't want to know the facts. And they don't want to know it all because they know they would absolutely reject any excuses for it.

I brought Joseph's polyandrous relationships up with my extended family just a few weeks ago when the topic of polygamy arose. My sister just said, "please don't talk about that. It's uncomfotable for me." No one dared call me a liar or "anti" cause they know I wouldn't bring it up if it weren't true. The issue properly raised, I doubt that many TBMs would react much differently than my largely TBM family.

To most TBMs who would find out about this truth to Joseph Smith, even only in the realm of reading a paper like this, I don't suspect that FAIR's excuses would ring true for them unless they had a desperate need to maintain belief.

Subject: Re: The FAIR paper does mention sex albeit obliquely
Date: Oct 22 23:26
Author: Celcius
Mail Address:

Is there any DNA Testing being done right now to determine if Joseph Smith was indeed the biological father of Josephine Fisher? I do believe that she was the biological daughter of Joseph Smith, but I would love to have DNA Testing to confirm that. Is there going to be any other DNA Testing to determine if Joseph Smith fathered other children by his Polyandrous wives? I sure hope so.

Subject: Joe Smith - A First Class ..... (swearing)
Date: Oct 23 06:47
Author: The Mormonator
Mail Address:

.... F*CKING ASSHOLE!!!!!!!!!!

Every single time I am reminded of what a callous, devious manipulator this shit-rag really was it makes me shake with anger. It is truly sad to think people still doggedly believe his lies.

If he was here today I would KICK HIS F*CKING ASS!!!!!

Subject: FAIR helps "average members" WTF?
Date: Oct 23 14:45
Author: Romans house go

From "About FAIR"

FAIR helps publish
articles and books that defend the LDS church,
operates a Web site that receives thousands of visitors
each day, and sponsors research projects and conferences
that provide the LDS scholarly community an
outlet for getting information into the hands of the "average

By this, FAIR apparently means to imply either that "average members" can't get their hands on in-print published books (Most of the works cited are available every day at Deseret Book -- we're not talking about the UTLM/Tanners' stuff) or that "average members" need to be told which passages are "not very useful (credit BKP)".

Mormons -- imaginary and otherwise -- can't help helping themselves to make abridgments.

Subject: I'm speechless.
Date: Oct 21 22:54
Author: melissa

The Fair Article....destined to become a classic in its genre.

Subject: Oh Boy, this is going to put my wife right ove the edge!
Date: Oct 21 22:56
Author: Just Thinking

She has been reading "Mormon Enigma.." the past few days, and every day she gasps at the new revelations, er, new awarenesses. (We've already had enough 'new revelations' from the church.) She has gone from accepting J. Smith as a prophet to now thinking he's a lowlife considerably lower than pond scum.

Thanks again Decon, you're a prince for all the remarkable research you do. You have single-handedly done more to help people see the dark underbelly of mormonism than just about anyone I know.

I can't wait until she sees this. Oh Honey, come here a minute!

Subject: Sent this info to my TBM family members
Date: Oct 22 01:20
Author: Kim

Thanks, Deconstructor, for compiling that info. It is presented very objectively, so I emailed it to my TBM family members expressly stating that I don't mean to attack them or their beliefs in any way, but I wonder, genuinely, if they are aware of Joseph Smith's many polygamous relationships. I asked if they have ever been taught about them in any church lesson, because in all the years I sat through lessons, I surely do NOT remember knowing that JS had more than one wife.

I did not learn of it until visiting this site about 18 months ago.

It will be interesting to see if any of them respond to me.

Question: Has the F.A.I.R. article just recently been released?

Subject: Re: Sharing your spouse with the Mormon Prophet
Date: Oct 22 09:05
Author: Higgins-Magee
Mail Address:

Thanks. This is brilliant stuff. TBMs will need to come up with some elegant mental gymnastics to dismiss this.

Subject: Praise to the man...
Date: Oct 22 11:19
Author: activejackmormon
Mail Address:

who propositioned your wife, and if she turned him down, had her reputations besmirched and her faithfulness questioned.

The story about Henry Jacobs is particularly disturbing and heart-wrenching. To sacrifice that much for a fraud is truly a tragedy. Now this would be an interesting Mormon movie. I wonder if Larry Miller would finance that one.

Subject: Re: elegant mental gymnastics
Date: Oct 22 18:24
Author: In the Know

FAIR's "Joseph could commit no adultery because he had the authority to release women from their previous marriage" is pretty damn elegant gymnastics to me. I'd just be interested to know what percentage of informed TBMs would be willing to go through the hoops along with FAIR. (It wouldn't surprise me if it were more than I'd think. Look at the GAs. They know about this stuff.)

Subject: Depends on what you call a denial of Smith Practicing Polygamy...
Date: Oct 22 16:14
Author: Deconstructor
Mail Address:

If you look at Joseph Smith's official LDS genealogical record on the church's site, it shows he had many wives while he was alive. See:

I have never seen the church come right out and declare that Joseph Smith was a monogomist, or that he never had more than one wife wile he was alive. However, they certainly don't come out and say he had more than one wife.

If you go down to the Joseph Smith Memorial Building you'll see many portaits and statues of Joseph Smith. Some are of him with his wife Emma. Deseret Book also has portraits of Smith with Emmma. But you won't find any of him with his other wives.

The church portrays Joseph Smith as a monogomist. It's not exactly an outright denial, but it's not the truth either.

Subject: About the public denial:
Date: Oct 22 19:49
Author: melissa

JS himself publicly denied polygamy his whole life. That's why he had Wm. Law's press destroyed.

I was just reading Blood of the Prophets, and it said that Brigham Young and the church publicly denied polygamy for six or seven years after settling Utah, so when they then came out and acknowledged it, the PR impact was serious and dramatically reduced their rate of conversion in England.

Subject: nope, they were once proud of J.Smith the polygamist
Date: Oct 23 14:33
Author: willie nelson

I have a pamphlet, published by Deseret Book about 50 years ago, in which an account is given of a public dispute between the RLDS and the morg over the question of Joseph Smith / did he or didn't he. The dispute took place about 100 years ago, and involved the RLDS claiming that polygamy was an invention of Brig Young and the Utah Church. The LDS position was that J.Smith indeed had many wives sealed to him while he was alive. It quotes affidavits and other historical sources. Very interesting. Now, in the year 2003, when it's embarrassing to admit to polygamy, or when Larry King asks you about it on national TV, somehow the morg position changed. P. T. Barnum was right.

Subject: it is obvious that Smith wanted sex, not responsibility
Date: Oct 22 10:34
Author: elfling

He wanted the rush, the power that comes from being the alpha
male, To have sex with any female who aroused him, but he did
not want the responsibility of caring for those females (as the priesthood holder is supposed to) so if they remained w/
their real husbands, he wouldn't have to support them or their children financially

Subject: That is an incredible compilation! (swearing)
Date: Oct 22 12:19
Author: Makurosu

This is the issue that started me researching the Church and eventually led me out. I would love to have had this when I was struggling with whether to serve a mission.

Shit, fire and hell. I wouldn't share my Oreo's with the Mormon prophet.

Subject: sad, sad, sad
Date: Oct 23 08:43
Author: willie nelson
Mail Address:

This article made me think of my sweet parents, and my in-laws, who all are now old, and who have given a lifetime of devotion to the morg. What a load of dung they have fallen for. And to think I was in the morg for such a long time. It does make me look at my family in a whole new light -- these are broken people, people who have been duped. There were a lot of kool-aid drinkers in French Guiana with Jim Jones, a lot of people who burned in Waco with David Koresh. The morg seems different, perhaps because of the existence of the American western frontier, where they could escape and build their inter-mountain empire. Otherwise, they all look about the same. Shit.

Subject: Isn't that a sad thought?
Date: Oct 23 08:47
Author: Makurosu

I think about some of the people in my family who have spent their entire lives sacrificing for the Church. All for nothing. Their entire lives. That's really sad.

Subject: by its fruit you know it
Date: Oct 23 14:16
Author: willie nelson
Mail Address:

Of all the horse manure developed by the morg, I think polygamy is one of the most destructive and indefensible doctrines they have. Can you really defend it? Damn hard to do. Witness the amazing underground economy in Utah, where thousands of polygamists defraud the state and federal government in terms of taxes not paid and benefits fraudulently obtained. Witness the unbelievable genetic disorders. Witness the abuse of women and children. Joseph Smith, look what you did. Morg, look what you have to accept in order to go on as a church. Shit.

Subject: Re: by its fruit you know it
Date: Oct 23 14:28
Author: TAK
Mail Address:

Two weeks ago I was home visiting my TBM mother in Arizona. I made a comment about the polygamists in Northern Ariz/So.Utah and maybe the AZ Gov. was going to do something about them.

This 85 year old women nearly shot out of her chair to defend these guys saying they were deeply religious people who should be left alone and the papers were full of lies. I was shocked.

She is so far in the hole of Mormonism, that all I could do is say nothing and let her live the rest of her life thinking what ever she wanted.

The question I now ask my self is do I stand by and let the rest of my family go down the same path with out saying a word?

Subject: that's the $64,000 question
Date: Oct 23 14:36
Author: willie nelson
Mail Address:

Tak, I think I understand the problem. I share it. At least I can say that I had something to do with getting my spouse and kids out of the trap, along with myself. Extended family still in it. And so it goes.


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