|Subject:||Can My Wife With No Income Still Be A Full Tithe Payer If I stop Paying?|
|Date:||Nov 28 20:55 2003|
|I have tithing settlement next week and for the
first time I'm questioning whether I should write the year end check to
catch up for the year (so far we have paid half of the true amount.)
Understand, it's not about the money - it's about paying for something
that I'm starting to have serious doubts about. Anyway, if I decide not
to write the check can my wife (who doesn't agree with me) still be
considered a full tithe payer since she earns no income as a stay at
home mom? It is hard enough to make my own decision to not have a temple
recommend, and I don't want to effect her status. I know this will cause
some problems for me but I have been "writing the check" for
the past 3 years just to avoid a conflict with her and the Bishop.
Someone please let me know the Church's stance on woman, who's husband
earns all the money and he decides to not pay a full tithing?
|Subject:||You may need to work this out with your wife; however, pay attention!|
|Date:||Nov 28 21:34|
|1) Your wife is a full-tithe payer without any of
your money going to the Church. No income = no tithing. Period.
2) I know you want to be honest with your bishop, but the only person who needs to declare a full-tithe is YOU. I bet you have paid 10% on the gross so far, right? Well, guess what? Some full-tithe payers with temple recommends only pay on the net (amount after taxes). Others pay on their increase as the scripture directs, and they have temple recommends too.
3) If your wife wants to pay on "her half" of the income, then she can simply tell your bishop that. She already isn't obligated to pay, but it may make her feel better. And of course, you already have paid that much anyway.
|Date:||Nov 28 21:59|
|when I got my last recommend, I was a stay at home
mom and my husband was inactive. The bishop just asked me if I worked
outside of the home, I said no, he said so you have no separate income,
and 10% of zero is zero - so I was a full tithe payer.
|Subject:||Re: Can My Wife With No Income Still Be A Full Tithe Payer If I stop Paying?|
|Date:||Nov 29 02:07|
|Cancel the tithing settlement ,no explanation
necessary. It will buy you some time to think things through. You are
paying them your money, giving them free service and they treat you
shitty, what's wrong with that picture? A good way to evaluate a cult
is, among other things, what happens when you stop paying money, start
questioning authority or want to leave. Are they still yor friends or do
they start throwing emotional rocks at you? God bless.
|Subject:||Why go to tithing settlement?|
|Date:||Nov 29 02:08|
|Just kneel down tonight and say, "big mighty
Elohim - if you want me to go to tithing settlement then inspire the
church leaders to answer all my questions with complete honesty,
otherwise I will know that my answer is that I'm not supposed to
go". Then when they call up asking why you didn't go, just blow
them off and if they press, tell them it's confidential.
That's what I did 2 years ago. We didn't go for tithing settlement and I got 2 phone calls from the Ward Exec Sec wanting to know why we hadn't made an appointment. I told him I'd check the schedule to see if something would work but since we were in Utah we were spending as much time (including Sundays) visiting my mom and siblings. Thus I had no time for tithing settlement.
They were so bewildered. Fortunately I was gone 2 months later and they never had time to follow up on me.
|Subject:||Re: Can My Wife With No Income Still Be A Full Tithe Payer If I stop Paying?|
|Date:||Nov 29 09:54|
|You determine how much tithing you have to pay. You
can declare your one tithing status. Since you have paid them money just
declare it a full tithing. They will probably not question you.
|Subject:||Yes. 10% of 0=0. nt|
|Date:||Nov 29 10:18|
|Subject:||I was given a recommend when hubby quit paying|
|Date:||Nov 30 02:26|
|It's been awhile since I had a recommend (mid 80s)
and the unchanging god could have changed his mind by now, but when my
hubby decided to quit paying on a regular basis, I wasn't working. Even
though I knew I'd probably never go through an endowment again (because
I couldn't have a good feeling about it and was tired of feeling like I
took Satan into the temple with me because of those feelings), I wanted
to keep the recommend to attend weddings. The bishop told me that as
long as I could say that if I had control over the finances, I'd pay the
tithing, I was worthy of a recommend.
Gawd, what an issue that was between hubby and I...
STUPID ME: "Gee dear, we should pay our tithing, because when we did, we always somehow made it."
HUBBY: "Sure we always made it, god raised the limit on our credit card."
STUPID ME: "But what will happen if we quit paying?"
HUBBY: "We can use that money to buy food instead of putting it on the credit card."
STUPID ME: "But then we'll only have food and not blessings..."
HUBBY: "You pay tithing on your 0% of the income and you'll be blessed."
ME: "snif...snif...snif...I want a worthy priesthood holder, that's why I married you, blah, blah, blah (you know the rest)"
DON'T GO TO THE STUPID TITHING SETTLEMENT!
|Subject:||If you've already paid half|
|Date:||Nov 30 19:49|
|I'd say that's fair. I assume you think her stay at
home mom work is worth something.
|Subject:||Similar situation with my parents: their solution.|
|Date:||Nov 30 20:21|
|My dad stopped paying tithing about ten years ago. For years, my TBM mom just assumed that she was no longer worthy to go to the temple. When I found out that she thought this (back in my TBM days), I told her that it shouldn't matter because if she COULD pay tithing, she WOULD. She talked to her bishop, and he agreed. What he told her is that since she does not have an income of her own, she's not responsible for paying tithing. It's as simple as that. She now attends the temple regularly, and is even the first counselor in the Relief Society.|
|Date:||Nov 30 23:15|
|Author:||mary ann benson|
|First of all, congrats on your openness in learning
about the falsehood of mormonism. I read your other thread and was
cheering and smiling for you as you told your story.
Second, I came across this thread with your concerns about tithing settlement and the full tithe “status” of your wife and could not remain quiet.
It really doesn't matter what the church considers a full tithe with regards to your wife. They treat women as second class citizens. The church will view your wife as a full tithe payer because she brings in nothing. They will tell you that since she earns no income she has nothing to tithe. (Can you feel the nothingness of women here?)
I would ask that you think carefully about declaring your wife as having no income and hence nothing to tithe. If you two married, then you are a partnership and half of everything you bring in is justifiably hers. Simply because society does not reward the work of a stay-at-home mother does not mean that she does not have monetary value. If you were to pay someone else to do what she does, you would need to fork over about 137K a year.
If you believe she is earning nothing, I suggest you start paying her for the services she performs. This will help her overcome the nothingness that the church has layered over her and help you to value her as well.
|Subject:||Relax, you've got no worries.|
|Date:||Nov 30 23:25|
|Let your wife attend tithing settlement herself. She
can state that she earns no income. She will be declared a full tithe
|Subject:||Re: I have a lot of worries|
|Date:||Dec 01 01:05|
|I have a lot of worries!
1. Even though I'm questioning the Church's origin, I still like it for what it offers my family today (i.e. great values and morals for my kids; social interaction for my kids, wife and myself; additional support network for my wife and kids; etc...)
2. 95% of my friends and my wife's friends (in state and out of state) are LDS. We are both in our early 30's and have been raised in the Church. Our whole life revolves around the Church (note> we are actually pretty "liberal" Mormons too, meaning we aren't Peter's or Molly's.)
3. If I become inactive (or less active) in the Church, then anything that goes wrong in my life and/or in my marriage will be blamed on my inactiveness by friends and in-laws.
4. I can't imagine going to any other Church right now.
5. I don't want to feel like a "loser" or less of a person than my wife.
6. I love BYU and visiting Utah (I know this doesn't mean anything I just thought I would throw it in there.)
7. There is so much more I could say....
I just started reading this board last Friday and it discusses a lot of things I have been thinking for years. It has been easier to just pay "the check" every year and say "yes" to everything then to start a huge conflict which could lead anywhere???? Lara, I have a lot of worries.
|Subject:||Regarding your worries. . .|
|Date:||Dec 01 01:21|
|Author:||mary ann benson|
> I have a lot of worries!
Don't worry, be happy! :-)
> 1. Even though I'm questioning the Chruch's origin, I still like it for what it offers my family today (i.e. great values and morals for my kids; social interaction for my kids, wife and myself; additional support network for my wife and kids; etc.)
Great values and morals can be better taught outside of the morg. Social interaction is actually better outside the morg. You can create your own support network for you and your family outside of the morg.
> 2. 95% of my friends and my wife's friends (in state and out of state) are LDS. We are both in our early 30's and have been raised in the Church. Our whole life revolves around the Church (note> we are actually pretty "liberal" Mormons too, meaning we aren't Peter's or Molly's.)
Yup, been there. Trust me, your friends in the morg are only your friends if you think and behave like them.
> 3. If I become inactive (or less active) in the Church, then anything that goes wrong in my life and/or in my marriage will be blamed on my inactiveness by friends and in-laws.
Yup, can't control what others say about us. Yet, what others say and do is about them, not about us.
> 4. I can't imagine going to any other Church right now.
Great! Don't! Ask yourself what do you want to do and do it.
> 5. I don't want to feel like a "loser" or less of a person than my wife.
Not sure I understand how leaving the morg makes you less of a person. I am certain it makes one more of a person.
> 6. I love BYU and visiting Utah (I know this doesn't mean anything I just thought I would throw it in there.)
> 7. There is so much more I could say....
OK, say it. That's what we are here for.
> I just started reading this board last Friday and it discusses a lot of things I have been thinking for years. It has been easier to just pay "the check" every year and say "yes" to everything then to start a huge conflict which could lead anywhere????
Glad you found the board. Take your time. We've all gone through the same fears that you are feeling. Feel the fear and do it anyway! It leads to FREEDOM!
|Subject:||The last few hundred bucks we gave LDS corp.|
|Date:||Dec 01 08:15|
|In the fall of 2000 I got my wife to agree that we'd
only pay tithing on her personal allowance. This was the money she got
each month to buy groceries, personal supplies, etc. - not the mortgage,
utilities, car gas, car repairs, taxes, etc. I considered myself lucky
that it didn't have to be 50/50 or some other figure that would still
mean the Morg getting a few hundred bucks a month.
This went on for about 5 months. Finally she agreed to put the tithing "on hold" until she felt comfortable about her issues with the Endowment having Masonic symbols, wordings and alleged plagiarism being resolved. This issue is the catalyst that eventually decimated her testimony.
The best way to undermine or reform LDS inc. is to negatively impact their revenue stream. Suppose the number of tithepayers and revenue totals were to be sliced in half. I think this would cause some real inward-looking by the stiffnecked leadership.
|Subject:||Re: Endowment Having Masonic Symbols???|
|Date:||Dec 01 12:30|
Can you give me some more information about the "Endowment having Masonic symbols, wordings and alleged plagiarism." I have heard about this before, but know little about Masonic stuff. I started to tell my wife a little about this last night and she seemed interested in knowing more about this.
|Subject:||This should give you a good start...|
|Date:||Dec 01 12:57|
|Subject:||Comparison of Mormon Endowment and Masonic Initiation Ceremonies (link)|
|Date:||Dec 02 01:20|
|Subject:||Website by a former Mormon and current Mason with lots of info|
|Date:||Dec 02 01:29|
|Subject:||Some basic facts that you and your wife should be aware of....|
|Date:||Dec 02 02:36|
|Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young and other
prominent Mormon leaders were all Masons.
During precisely the same time period that Joseph Smith was preparing the Book of Mormon, Masonry was a leading news item and topic of conversation in upstate New York. A dissenting Mason named William Morgan had revealed the secret rituals of Masonry and, shortly afterwards, disappeared. It was widely believed that the Masons had kidnapped him and killed him. Many of the particulars of Mormon temple worship are very similar to the costumes and rituals (including bloody oaths) that were published in William Morgan's book.
After William Morgan disappeared, a powerful "Anti-Masonry" movement developed in New York and spread throughout the United States. The themes of this movement are reflected in the Book of Mormon in the form of diatribes against "secret combinations" and Joseph Smith's fondness for using "anti" as an adjective. (Also, the "Master Mahan" referred to in Mormon scriptures, is undoubtedly a thinly disguised reference to "Master Mason," which is a rank in the Masonic lodge organization.)
William Morgan's widow later became one of Joseph Smith's plural wives.
The temple endowment ceremony was devised by Joseph Smith shortly after he was inducted into the Masonic lodge in the area of Nauvoo.
The beehive symbol, which was adopted as the symbol of Deseret and subsequently became a symbol for the State of Utah, is a traditional Masonic symbol.
The symbols of the compass and the square are obviously symbols borrowed from Masonry.
The secret handshakes, passwords and bloody oaths of secrecy make some sense in the context of a secret brotherhood (or "secret combination" to use BoM terminology) in which secret connections and affilations are only effective so long as they remain secret. They make little sense in the context of temple worship that is claimed to be the penultimate spiritual experience of Mormonism.
The more you learn about the connections of early Mormonism with Masonry, the more you realize that Joseph Smith had an immature, Tom Sawyer style fascintation with magic, rituals and secret clubs. He was obviously extremely interested in Masonry.
In Nauvoo, Joseph hit upon the "revealed" endowment ceremony as a way of legitimizing his adultery in the eyes of key insiders in the Mormon leadership. It was a way to introduce a scandalous new doctrine under conditions that caused initiates to be sworn to secrecy. Joseph found it convenient to plagiarize the Masonic rituals for this purpose.
The above is just a brief list of just some of the weird connections between Mormonism and Masonry--just some food for thought to keep in mind as you begin researching this topic in more depth.
|Subject:||Consider a worthy charity|
|Date:||Dec 01 13:26|
|Author:||a joe smithee production|
|If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to be
trying to reconcile a number of conflicting impulses. You feel the need
to satisfy the expectations of your wife, family and social support
system, but also you must pay attention to what your mind is hinting to
you about the LDS church. I think you are also worried about how your
actions will affect the innocent, namely your wife and kids. Maybe on a
deeper level, you are STILL worried that you are somehow being selfish
by not paying a full tithe and you will incur the wrath of God. And it
is important to give due consideration to all of these issues, for
that's what it means to be a moral and ethical person.
So, consider this, if you pay a full tithe, part of the money will be used to maintain the church's temple system, where ordinances will be performed for people who are already DEAD. Meanwhile, many of the living continue to go without food and shelter, suffer mental or physical illness. Some may be trying to patch together Christmas presents for their children even though they are out of a job. My point is, there are many, many opportunities to donate to the living. If the mormon God exists, I don't see how he (or your wife) could possible blame you for donating what you would have paid in tithing to a worthy charity. This may also help relieve any guilt you may feel over this. Consider the issue from the standard of a reasonable being, if the dead really do need ordinances performed, don't you think God could make certain allowances?
The Church Handbook is very vague on tithing. The official policy is subject to many interpretations. For example, there is no official policy on paying on the gross or the net, it's up to the members to decide. You also have the option of sending your tithing directly to church headquarters, bypassing the local ward. I've heard wealthy LDS members often pay this way. In regards to tithing, you can pay whatever you want and still tell your bishop you consider yourself a full tithe payer. You are thinking of tithing in a legalistic manner when even the official church policy on this is vague. Guilt is what drives members to pay the full 10% on the Gross.
|Subject:||You've paid half, that should satisfy your wife for this year...|
|Date:||Dec 01 13:44|
|I agree with others here that there should be a
monetary value attached to a stay at home mom. 50-50 should be fair and
you've paid half your tithing so that should satisfy your wife.
As far as the church goes, they put no monetary value on a stay at home mom, probably for practical reasons. I actually see this as good policy on the church's part. I could imagine some huge problems if bishops were telling these women that unless they can coerce their inactive/non-member husbands to pay tithing they don't get a temple recommend. That would be just plain cruel and would cause even more marital friction than already exists in an interfaith marriage. Fortunately, your wife isn't required to pay any tithing to get her recommend.
You need to sit down and discuss this with your wife. Does she know of your disbelief? Let her know that right now you don't feel comfortable paying money to the church. Explain to her that you have already paid her half of the tithing. You also need to discuss future tithing payments. Do you want to continue paying 5% tithing for your wife? THat would be a very kind gesture on your part, but you might try explaining to her that the church requires no tithing from her and she can remain a recommend holding member in good standing without paying any tithing. My wife is TBM and we didn't pay tithing all year. She wasn't happy about it at all but she hasn't said a word about it for about 8 months because we have been much more comfortable financially.
|Subject:||you don't have to attend this optional meeting - don't go!!|
|Date:||Dec 01 14:48|
|Author:||temple name: Jonathan|
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