| Subject:
| Boy, this pisses me off (swearing) |
| Date:
| May 29 12:25 |
| Author:
| Mojo Jojo |
By what right do the Brethern deign to tell us
what members can and cannot say in private conversation about
church leaders? ...control freaks!
Dumb ass cult! |
| Subject:
| Re: LDS Church warns members not to believe everything they
hear |
| Date:
| May 29 12:26 |
| Author:
| Glo |
Two things come to mind:
a) the morg scans the Internet
b) the GAs are a bunch of pompous assholes
They can read letters from the pulpits till the cows come home but
trying to squelch people's free speech is fruitless. Joseph Smith
tried it and it did not work out so well for him either. |
| Subject:
| You left out one. |
| Date:
| May 29 21:19 |
| Author:
| Cindy |
| C. The GAs are paranoid control freaks. |
| Subject:
| Instead of worrying about some stupid |
| Date:
| May 29 12:29 |
| Author:
| ESL |
| internet joke about members of the Quorum, it
would have been better to use their prophet skills to predict the
terrible storm that hit Hispaniola, killing thousands in the
Dominican Republic and Haiti. |
| Subject:
| Re: Instead of worrying about some stupid: Well, it's
obvious... |
| Date:
| May 29 15:01 |
| Author:
| Lara C |
...that they can't handle anything important.
It's all about how they look in the eyes of the members.
Haven't heard any prophesy. |
| Subject:
| What's the big deal about these remarks? Did I miss
something? |
| Date:
| May 29 15:26 |
| Author:
| MySongAngel |
I guess they humanize the leaders, but I don't
see anything really harmful about these remarks. Why is this talk
getting so much attention?
|
| Subject:
| It probably wouldn't have gotten ANY attention... |
| Date:
| May 29 15:38 |
| Author:
| brian-the-christ |
...if the Kooksel of the Twelve hadn't heard
it was posted on the Internet. Their devious minds immediately saw
how it could be twisted in to a slur (when directed at themselves)
and wanted to nip it in the bud.
I think they did more harm than good in acknowledging it.
If only they would do the same about Joseph Smith! |
| Subject:
| Unfavorable picture of B[KKK]P |
| Date:
| May 30 13:13 |
| Author:
| Quevedo |
It paints an unfavorable picture of Packer.
Or as reported by Steve Benson, even Oaks or Maxwell (don't recall
which), were reported to have said of Packer:
"you can't stage manage a grizzly bear."
This probably wouldn't have caused such an uproar if it would have
left out the shin kicking remarks, and references to Packer's
legendary ill temper. |
| Subject:
| Oaks said it. And here's why: |
| Date:
| May 30 22:48 |
| Author:
| steve benson |
As recorded from my notes of a meeting with
Oaks and Maxwell on 24 September 1993 in the LDS Church
Administration Building:
In an on-the-record interview with a newspaper reporter, he
[Oaks] blatantly misrepresented the truth about Boyd K. Packer's
involvement in the excommunication of Salt Lake author, Paul
Toscano--who had attracted scowling Church attention for, among
other things, suggesting that members need not perpetuate a Cult
of Personality by standing up when General Authorities walked into
the room.
Oaks had shared the details of Packer's involvement with me in a .
. . "confidential" meeting on September 24, 1993 (also
attended by Maxwell). There, Oaks confessed that Packer had
inappropriately injected himself into local Church action against
Toscano, in the process violating Church disciplinary procedures
and opening the Church up to a possible lawsuit from Toscano.
Referring to Packer as the source of these headaches, a frustrated
Oaks told me, "You can't stage manage a grizzly bear."
When subsequently asked by the media about rumors that Packer had
worked behind the scenes to get Toscano excommunicated, Oaks
claimed ignorance and denied that Packer could ever do such a
thing. . . .
A question I posed to Oaks and Maxwell in the September 24, 1993,
meeting concerned reports that Apostle Boyd K. Packer had been
behind the excommunication of Paul James Toscano, a local Salt
Lake City attorney, author and outspoken advocate for women's
rights.
To understand the context of the question, it is necessary to
review events at the time, as reported in the press.
Packer's suspected entanglement in the excommunication of Toscano
became a subject of extensive media coverage in the fall of 1993.
Toscano was excommunicated from the Mormon Church on September
19,1993, "for writing and speaking publicly about church
doctrine, feminism, the state of the faith's leadership and other
issues." At the stake high council disciplinary hearing that
ultimately sealed his fate, attention was focused on a Sunstone
symposium speech Toscano had recently delivered, entitled,
"All Is Not Well in Zion: False Teachings of the True
Church," in which Toscano was alleged to have made derogatory
comments . . . about general authorities." ("LDS Apostle
Denies Ordering Dissident's Excommunication," Associated
Press, 11 October 1993, sec, D, p. 1ff; and "Six
Intellectuals Disciplined for Apostasy," Sunstone,
November 1993, p. 66).
With the Mormon Church having recently disciplined the infamous
"September Six" for activities relating to scholarship
and feminism, speculation was rampant that Packer had been
"behind the church's recent crackdown on dissidents."
That assessment proved to be well-founded. Five months earlier,
Packer had warned a gathering of LDS bureaucrats that some Mormons
"influenced by social and political unrest are being caught
up and led away" by "the gay-lesbian movement, the
feminist movement, as well as the ever-present challenge from the
so-called scholars or intellectuals." ("Cartoonist Says
Oaks Lied To Protect Fellow Apostle," Vern Anderson,
Associated Press, in Salt Lake Tribune, 12 October 1993,
sec. B, p. 1ff; and Boyd K. Packer, "Talk to the All-Church
Coordinating Council," transcript, 18 May 1993, pp. 3, 4)
Packer, however, vehemently denied that he had been behind the
banishment of Toscano. Specifically, he insisted he had not
directed Toscano's stake president, Kerry Heinz, to convene a
disciplinary council against him. While admitting to having met
with Heinz to discuss Toscano, Packer assured the press, "We
talked doctrine and philosophy. I absolutely did not instruct him
to hold a disciplinary counsel and did not then, nor have I ever,
directed any verdict. By church policy, that is left entirely to
local leaders. When he [Heinz] left, I did not know what he would
do." ("Cracks in the temple: Mormon unity in
peril," Paul Brinkley-Rogers, Arizona Republic, 10
October 1993, sec. A, p 1ff)
Packer further revealed to the Church-owned Deseret News that his
decision to meet with Heinz had been made through a lower-ranking
Church middleman. Contrary to Oaks' claim to me in our September
24th meeting that Packer had independently strayed outside
approved channels of authority, Packer insisted that, in fact, he
had been advised by "the brethren" to meet with
Toscano's stake president.
Said Packer, "Even though general authorities of the church
are free to contact or respond to local leaders on any subject, I
felt there may be some sensitivity about his request. The brethren
felt I could not very well
decline to see a stake president. I therefore consented."
("Packer Says He Was Concerned by Request for Meeting, But
Apostles Endorsed It," Associated Press, in Salt Lake
Tribune, 17 October 1993, sec. B, p. 1ff)
Toscano was not persuaded by Packer's explanations.
Reacting to Packer's admission of meeting with Heinz, Toscano
said, "I knew all along that Boyd Packer was behind it. He's
behind all this." ("Grandson of President Asks To Be
Removed From LDS Church Rolls," Jennifer Skordas, Salt
Lake Tribune, 11 October 1993, sec. D, p. 1ff)
In my meeting with Oaks and Maxwell, I specifically asked if
Packer had, in fact, been involved behind the scenes in the
excommunication process against Toscano.
Oaks confirmed that Packer had.
Oaks told me he was "distressed and astonished" over
Packer's decision to meet with Heinz, even though he said Heinz
was the one who had called Packer and asked "for the
meeting." Oaks said it was "a mistake" on Packer's
part to have agreed to meet with Heinz, the latter whom Oaks
described as "an old seminary man." (Packer had come up
with Heinz through the ranks of the Church education system).
Oaks told me that, by meeting with Heinz, Packer had gone outside
the bounds of his assigned responsibility. Oaks said one of his
own areas of expertise was in legal affairs. Maxwell noted that
one reason Oaks had been brought into the Quorum of the Twelve was
to help rewrite the manual on Church disciplinary procedure. Oaks
expressed concern that Packer's involvement with Heinz might lead
Toscano "to sue the Church" over violation of his
ecclesiastical procedural rights.
In the end, Oaks, with a note of resignation in his voice, said of
Packer,
"You can't stage manage a grizzly bear."
https://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon115.htm,
Parts 2 and 19
|
| Subject:
| The more you tighten your grip, Hinckley... |
| Date:
| May 29 15:44 |
| Author:
| Princess Leia |
| The more star systems will slip through your
fingers |
| Subject:
| Now if the members would really do this... |
| Date:
| May 29 15:51 |
| Author:
| fh451 |
the church would be brought to an end. People
believing all the crap they hear in church and in the
"official publications" is exactly why the church does
as well as it does. Disappearing golden plates? God appeared to
JS? JS needs your 14 year old daughter for a wife or he would be
slain with a flaming sword? Hinkley and other profits, seers, and
prevaricators meet and talk with JC? All swallowed hook, line,
sinker, rod and real, and copy of Angling Times magazine!
If members wouldn't believe everything they hear, we might
actually somewhere!
fh451
|
| Subject:
| So, what's the point..... |
| Date:
| May 30 00:22 |
| Author:
| scarecrowfromoz |
of televising and having people watch and
attend General Conference, or for that matter even go to church
every week, if they are now not to believe anything they heard.
The message seems to be a very legalistic approach: "If it's
not in writing in an official publication, don't believe it."
Wouldn't it be easier then to just mail out what they are supposed
to believe, and let them stay home? After all, anything you heard
ANYWHERE, even by GBH himself, but is not in writing is not
official.
I can hear GBH now "No, Mr. Devil I didn't sell my soul to
you. You must have misheard me. Besides, we only had a gentleman's
agreement and shook on it. Unless you have it in writing, it's not
valid."
When GBH goes senile and says at GC, and is recorded on tape as
saying, "I want the faithful to go out and moon all the
cheating heathens" that EVERYONE including the videotape
heard him say, then well.....they heard it wrong. What he ACTUALLY
said was "I want the faithful to go out and move the children
to Eden."
|
| Subject:
| None of them eat dark chocolate???? |
| Date:
| May 30 10:59 |
| Author:
| et in Utah ego |
That's what I found most fascinating about the
story.
Isn't that just so perfect? The GA's only eat MILK
chocolate...none of that dark and loathsome stuff for them!
But now I wonder why Cummings doesn't just sent a whole box o'
white chocolate?
|
| Subject:
| The LIARS need to watch every word they say now - thanks to
the internet!!! |
| Date:
| May 30 11:12 |
| Author:
| wisedup |
| News travels fast these days. They better be
on guard.
|
| Subject:
| Thanks to RFM! |
| Date:
| May 30 13:16 |
| Author:
| Quevedo |
Thanks to RFM, I heard about this WELL in
advance of the reading in Sac Meeting.
I was able to portray the context of what had happened for my DW
before we even heard the letter read from the pulpit.
And even she said "Sheesh, like that's ever going to
happen!" (asking GA's permission to quote). She does that all
the time, in correspondence to missionaries from our ward. She
will describe who visiting authorities were at local conferences,
and what her take on their remarks was.
|
| Subject:
| More thanks to RFM! |
| Date:
| May 31 11:15 |
| Author:
| Cindy |
| I recall that the remarks that seem to have
started all this were on RFM a few weeks ago too.
|
| Subject:
| Re: LDS Church warns members not to believe everything they
hear |
| Date:
| May 30 13:58 |
| Author:
| That'll be the day..... |
"I am Gordon B. Hinckley, and I approve
this message"
LOL!
|
|