Subject: LDS Church warns members not to believe everything they hear
Date: May 29 2004
Author: OU812

On page C2 of Saturday's S.L. tribune is this article:  Excerpt:  "The LDS First Presidency issued one of its rare public statements this week, discouraging members from circulating notes taken at a church regional or stake conference without the consent of the speaker...."
click here for full article

and here is the official first presidency statement:  Excerpt: "...Any notes made when General Authorities, Area Authority Seventies, or other general Church officers speak at regional and stake conferences or other meetings should not be distributed without the consent of the speaker. Personal notes are for individual use only..."
click here for full statement

Subject: Here are the "notes" that went thru Cyberspace
Date: Jun 12 19:40 2004
Author: Lorraine H..

The following were notes taken by a friend's sister at a recent stake
conference (3/21). The visiting apostle was L. Tom Perry.
Here are her notes.

Notes from Kuna Idaho Stake Conference

March 21, 2004

L. Tom Perry

In our present Council of the 12 Apostles, there has been no change in nine
years. This is the longest in the history of the Church that the same 12
apostles have served together. We asked President Hinckley why this is so
and he said our wisdom is needed to stand up against the great changes in
the world.

President Packer is the most inspirational spiritual man I've ever had the
opportunity to work with. He also can get very irate and it is my job to
kick him in the shins if he gets too irate. Next time you see him, ask him
to lift his pant legs so you can see my kick marks on his shins!

Elder Haight is stronger today than he has been in a long time. We fully
expected him to die last July. His daughter called us and told us the
doctors gave him just days to live. But he rallied and he now has a
physical therapist that comes to his house every day and works with him. I
visited him in his apartment and he showed me that he walks around his table
12 times, then he walks around his couch 12 times, then he walks a circuit
in his apartment. He said, "Anything the physical therapist asks me to do,
I do twice!" He comes to our council meetings and contributes to each one.
We even plan on him speaking for General Conference for 5 minutes-we hope!
He can't see well and he doesn't see the teleprompter so we don't know what
he will say or how long he will go.

Elder Maxwell's life has been preserved in a most remarkable way. He has
been preserved to bless us with that brilliant mind of his. Oh the jewels
that come out of Elder Maxwell!

Elder Nelson is the physician to the First Presidency and to the Twelve.
If we have an ailment we can talk to him about it. He is our doctor. He
still makes hospital rounds. He is the greatest ambassador we have because
he has a reputation all over the world. He can go anywhere in the world and
people know and respect him because of his great pioneering work in heart

Elder Ballard is our used car salesman! He is our enthusiastic leader of
the missionary department. He is telling our missionaries, "Stop being
robots! Learn how to teach by the Spirit!" He has convinced President
Hinckley to raise the bar. Now you have to qualify for a mission. We
should raise the bar in our own activities.

Elder Scott is our nuclear scientist. He is a computer genius. He helps
us all keep our computers working right. He has the talent of looking to
the future.

Elder Hales is our international businessman. He was in charge of the
international sales of all the men's shaving products and the like for a
large international area (I think in the orient). He has a great financial
talent. He sits on committees with our First Presidency.

Oh, I forgot Elder Oaks! Well, he's away! No wonder I should forget. He
is our judge. He is very detailed like an attorney. Nothing escapes his
mind. I send him a message and replies back correcting my voice-mail! He
understands the law and principles. He is our great public relations man.
He understands the needs of the Church.

Elder Holland is our great student. President of a university or two. He
is an excellent writer. Whenever there is a difficult assignment in that
way, he gets the assignment to do the writing for it.

Elder Eyring . . . I wish someone could explain him to me! He gives me a
headache with that brilliant mind of his! When we travel together he sits
up front next to the driver and pops questions, trying to understand
everyone and everything around him.

Each of us is wonderfully different but as a combination as a whole we make
a wonderful high council.

We are certain to follow the order of the Church in our meetings and in
all we do. This has been clearly established. For example, I would never
think of going through a door before Elder Packer. He is the President of
our Council. It is the President of the Council who selects the President
of the Church. Is there any other way the Lord controls who he selects as a
prophet? If He doesn't want an apostle to preside, He who controls life and
death calls him home.

Every week the Cummings Chocolate people send us a 3 lb. box of chocolates.
In our meeting, we follow our order and President Packer picks first, then I
choose, and so on. Poor Elder Eyring has never had a light chocolate yet!
Perhaps if he lives long enough!!!
Subject: COB puts members into a double bind with latest letter
Date: May 30 13:22
Author: Quevedo

OK, the more I think about the latest letter from the 1st Redundancy, er I mean prezidency, the madder I get.

In typical fashion, the dumb shits in the COB have issued a statement, ex catedra, that puts the members in a double bind.

An earlier letter from the First Redundancy said, in essence, "Don't bother us with trifling letters."

The latest letter says, in essence, "don't quote us without our permission."

So how the hell are obedient members supposed to submit requests to quote the bastards? They were just told not to send letters to the COB.

I can just see it now. The COB presents:
The Internet-based publication clearance release site. Before visiting this site, please be sure that you have coordinated your request through your Bishop, Stake, and Area presidencies.

Subject: Boy, this pisses me off (swearing)
Date: May 29 12:25
Author: Mojo Jojo

By what right do the Brethern deign to tell us what members can and cannot say in private conversation about church leaders?  ...control freaks!

Dumb ass cult!

Subject: Re: LDS Church warns members not to believe everything they hear
Date: May 29 12:26
Author: Glo

Two things come to mind:

a) the morg scans the Internet

b) the GAs are a bunch of pompous assholes

They can read letters from the pulpits till the cows come home but trying to squelch people's free speech is fruitless. Joseph Smith tried it and it did not work out so well for him either.

Subject: You left out one.
Date: May 29 21:19
Author: Cindy

C. The GAs are paranoid control freaks.

Subject: Instead of worrying about some stupid
Date: May 29 12:29
Author: ESL

internet joke about members of the Quorum, it would have been better to use their prophet skills to predict the terrible storm that hit Hispaniola, killing thousands in the Dominican Republic and Haiti.

Subject: Re: Instead of worrying about some stupid: Well, it's obvious...
Date: May 29 15:01
Author: Lara C

...that they can't handle anything important.

It's all about how they look in the eyes of the members.

Haven't heard any prophesy.

Subject: What's the big deal about these remarks? Did I miss something?
Date: May 29 15:26
Author: MySongAngel

I guess they humanize the leaders, but I don't see anything really harmful about these remarks. Why is this talk getting so much attention?

Subject: It probably wouldn't have gotten ANY attention...
Date: May 29 15:38
Author: brian-the-christ

...if the Kooksel of the Twelve hadn't heard it was posted on the Internet. Their devious minds immediately saw how it could be twisted in to a slur (when directed at themselves) and wanted to nip it in the bud.

I think they did more harm than good in acknowledging it.

If only they would do the same about Joseph Smith!

Subject: Unfavorable picture of B[KKK]P
Date: May 30 13:13
Author: Quevedo

It paints an unfavorable picture of Packer.

Or as reported by Steve Benson, even Oaks or Maxwell (don't recall which), were reported to have said of Packer:

"you can't stage manage a grizzly bear."

This probably wouldn't have caused such an uproar if it would have left out the shin kicking remarks, and references to Packer's legendary ill temper.

Subject: Oaks said it. And here's why:
Date: May 30 22:48
Author: steve benson

As recorded from my notes of a meeting with Oaks and Maxwell on 24 September 1993 in the LDS Church Administration Building:

In an on-the-record interview with a newspaper reporter, he [Oaks] blatantly misrepresented the truth about Boyd K. Packer's involvement in the excommunication of Salt Lake author, Paul Toscano--who had attracted scowling Church attention for, among other things, suggesting that members need not perpetuate a Cult of Personality by standing up when General Authorities walked into the room.

Oaks had shared the details of Packer's involvement with me in a . . . "confidential" meeting on September 24, 1993 (also attended by Maxwell). There, Oaks confessed that Packer had inappropriately injected himself into local Church action against Toscano, in the process violating Church disciplinary procedures and opening the Church up to a possible lawsuit from Toscano. Referring to Packer as the source of these headaches, a frustrated Oaks told me, "You can't stage manage a grizzly bear." When subsequently asked by the media about rumors that Packer had worked behind the scenes to get Toscano excommunicated, Oaks claimed ignorance and denied that Packer could ever do such a thing. . . .

A question I posed to Oaks and Maxwell in the September 24, 1993, meeting concerned reports that Apostle Boyd K. Packer had been behind the excommunication of Paul James Toscano, a local Salt Lake City attorney, author and outspoken advocate for women's rights.

To understand the context of the question, it is necessary to review events at the time, as reported in the press.

Packer's suspected entanglement in the excommunication of Toscano became a subject of extensive media coverage in the fall of 1993. Toscano was excommunicated from the Mormon Church on September 19,1993, "for writing and speaking publicly about church doctrine, feminism, the state of the faith's leadership and other issues." At the stake high council disciplinary hearing that ultimately sealed his fate, attention was focused on a Sunstone symposium speech Toscano had recently delivered, entitled, "All Is Not Well in Zion: False Teachings of the True Church," in which Toscano was alleged to have made derogatory comments . . . about general authorities." ("LDS Apostle Denies Ordering Dissident's Excommunication," Associated Press, 11 October 1993, sec, D, p. 1ff; and "Six Intellectuals Disciplined for Apostasy," Sunstone, November 1993, p. 66).

With the Mormon Church having recently disciplined the infamous "September Six" for activities relating to scholarship and feminism, speculation was rampant that Packer had been "behind the church's recent crackdown on dissidents." That assessment proved to be well-founded. Five months earlier, Packer had warned a gathering of LDS bureaucrats that some Mormons "influenced by social and political unrest are being caught up and led away" by "the gay-lesbian movement, the feminist movement, as well as the ever-present challenge from the so-called scholars or intellectuals." ("Cartoonist Says Oaks Lied To Protect Fellow Apostle," Vern Anderson, Associated Press, in Salt Lake Tribune, 12 October 1993, sec. B, p. 1ff; and Boyd K. Packer, "Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council," transcript, 18 May 1993, pp. 3, 4)

Packer, however, vehemently denied that he had been behind the banishment of Toscano. Specifically, he insisted he had not directed Toscano's stake president, Kerry Heinz, to convene a disciplinary council against him. While admitting to having met with Heinz to discuss Toscano, Packer assured the press, "We talked doctrine and philosophy. I absolutely did not instruct him to hold a disciplinary counsel and did not then, nor have I ever, directed any verdict. By church policy, that is left entirely to local leaders. When he [Heinz] left, I did not know what he would do." ("Cracks in the temple: Mormon unity in peril," Paul Brinkley-Rogers, Arizona Republic, 10 October 1993, sec. A, p 1ff)

Packer further revealed to the Church-owned Deseret News that his decision to meet with Heinz had been made through a lower-ranking Church middleman. Contrary to Oaks' claim to me in our September 24th meeting that Packer had independently strayed outside approved channels of authority, Packer insisted that, in fact, he had been advised by "the brethren" to meet with Toscano's stake president.

Said Packer, "Even though general authorities of the church are free to contact or respond to local leaders on any subject, I felt there may be some sensitivity about his request. The brethren felt I could not very well
decline to see a stake president. I therefore consented." ("Packer Says He Was Concerned by Request for Meeting, But Apostles Endorsed It," Associated Press, in Salt Lake Tribune, 17 October 1993, sec. B, p. 1ff)

Toscano was not persuaded by Packer's explanations.

Reacting to Packer's admission of meeting with Heinz, Toscano said, "I knew all along that Boyd Packer was behind it. He's behind all this." ("Grandson of President Asks To Be Removed From LDS Church Rolls," Jennifer Skordas, Salt Lake Tribune, 11 October 1993, sec. D, p. 1ff)

In my meeting with Oaks and Maxwell, I specifically asked if Packer had, in fact, been involved behind the scenes in the excommunication process against Toscano.

Oaks confirmed that Packer had.

Oaks told me he was "distressed and astonished" over Packer's decision to meet with Heinz, even though he said Heinz was the one who had called Packer and asked "for the meeting." Oaks said it was "a mistake" on Packer's part to have agreed to meet with Heinz, the latter whom Oaks described as "an old seminary man." (Packer had come up with Heinz through the ranks of the Church education system).

Oaks told me that, by meeting with Heinz, Packer had gone outside the bounds of his assigned responsibility. Oaks said one of his own areas of expertise was in legal affairs. Maxwell noted that one reason Oaks had been brought into the Quorum of the Twelve was to help rewrite the manual on Church disciplinary procedure. Oaks expressed concern that Packer's involvement with Heinz might lead Toscano "to sue the Church" over violation of his ecclesiastical procedural rights.

In the end, Oaks, with a note of resignation in his voice, said of Packer,

"You can't stage manage a grizzly bear.", Parts 2 and 19

Subject: The more you tighten your grip, Hinckley...
Date: May 29 15:44
Author: Princess Leia

The more star systems will slip through your fingers

Subject: Now if the members would really do this...
Date: May 29 15:51
Author: fh451

the church would be brought to an end. People believing all the crap they hear in church and in the "official publications" is exactly why the church does as well as it does. Disappearing golden plates? God appeared to JS? JS needs your 14 year old daughter for a wife or he would be slain with a flaming sword? Hinkley and other profits, seers, and prevaricators meet and talk with JC? All swallowed hook, line, sinker, rod and real, and copy of Angling Times magazine!

If members wouldn't believe everything they hear, we might actually somewhere!


Subject: So, what's the point.....
Date: May 30 00:22
Author: scarecrowfromoz

of televising and having people watch and attend General Conference, or for that matter even go to church every week, if they are now not to believe anything they heard.

The message seems to be a very legalistic approach: "If it's not in writing in an official publication, don't believe it." Wouldn't it be easier then to just mail out what they are supposed to believe, and let them stay home? After all, anything you heard ANYWHERE, even by GBH himself, but is not in writing is not official.

I can hear GBH now "No, Mr. Devil I didn't sell my soul to you. You must have misheard me. Besides, we only had a gentleman's agreement and shook on it. Unless you have it in writing, it's not valid."

When GBH goes senile and says at GC, and is recorded on tape as saying, "I want the faithful to go out and moon all the cheating heathens" that EVERYONE including the videotape heard him say, then well.....they heard it wrong. What he ACTUALLY said was "I want the faithful to go out and move the children to Eden."

Subject: None of them eat dark chocolate????
Date: May 30 10:59
Author: et in Utah ego

That's what I found most fascinating about the story.

Isn't that just so perfect? The GA's only eat MILK chocolate...none of that dark and loathsome stuff for them!

But now I wonder why Cummings doesn't just sent a whole box o' white chocolate?

Subject: The LIARS need to watch every word they say now - thanks to the internet!!!
Date: May 30 11:12
Author: wisedup

News travels fast these days. They better be on guard.

Subject: Thanks to RFM!
Date: May 30 13:16
Author: Quevedo

Thanks to RFM, I heard about this WELL in advance of the reading in Sac Meeting.

I was able to portray the context of what had happened for my DW before we even heard the letter read from the pulpit.

And even she said "Sheesh, like that's ever going to happen!" (asking GA's permission to quote). She does that all the time, in correspondence to missionaries from our ward. She will describe who visiting authorities were at local conferences, and what her take on their remarks was.

Subject: More thanks to RFM!
Date: May 31 11:15
Author: Cindy

I recall that the remarks that seem to have started all this were on RFM a few weeks ago too.

Subject: Re: LDS Church warns members not to believe everything they hear
Date: May 30 13:58
Author: That'll be the day.....

"I am Gordon B. Hinckley, and I approve this message"


Subject: What do you bet that L. Tom Perry
Date: May 30 13:34
Author: gemini

got a dressing down for even giving that talk? I'll bet he got told in no uncertain terms that none of the brethren are to talk about any of the other brethren in human terms. After all, gotta keep them on that pedestal, doncha know!

Subject: Re: What do you bet that L. Tom Perry
Date: May 30 21:56
Author: Anon

Dressing down? He wishes. I bet they reamed him a new one. Boyd K. Packer is famous for his temper.

Subject: Excellent point, Quevedo...
Date: May 30 16:41
Author: HRC girl

They were just told a month earlier "Don't write to the First Presidency."

Now, they are told "Don't quote us, unless you get permission from the FP/GAs"


And just how are they supposed to get that permission if they can't write?

Ahhhh, maybe the FP is onto something. They'll never be bothered again with members' questions and doubts in letters. And they'll never be quoted again. Since members are so obedient. NOT!!!

Duh, that's why they are having to issue all these letters.

Here's to implosion!!!


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