PROVO — College students should not put off creating families until they have completed all of their studies, an LDS Church apostle said Sunday...
Using examples from his life, Elder Nelson, a surgeon and medical researcher, said he and his wife struggled financially early in his career while he earned medical degrees. By the time he set up his practice his wife had given birth to five of their 10 children...
He urged his listeners to seek first to follow the teachings of the church before seeking wealth, which includes the commandment to create families...
|Subject:||Has Nelson never read the Church Handbook of Instructions?|
|Date:||Feb 07 21:17|
|The CHI states that the number of children one has,
and when, is strictly between the couple and the Lord. It's no one
Or does it just mean policies are whatever they say it is at the moment?
|Subject:||The CHI is written in Mormonese and has to be translated...|
|Date:||Feb 07 23:17|
|Translated into plain English, the quoted passage reads like this: "A couple is expected to have as many children as they are physically capable of bearing, regardless of financial situation. The exact number (whether 7, 10 or 15 children) that follows from obedience to this principle is strictly between the couple and the Lord and brownie points are awarded in heaven for couples who push the physical capacity envelope with regard to child-bearing."|
|Subject:||Nelson is an intelligent man, who has had a very successful career.|
|Date:||Feb 07 23:28|
|Both as a physician and now as a professional
Apostle. There was some struggle in the early years when he was going
through med school, but he had good support from family, who fully
expected him to eventually make the education pay off.
If he's happy about how his family plan turned out, good for him. However, this one-size-fits-all approach is a recipe for disaster for all the gullible people who hear him and expect that they can have the same happy results, even if their career prospects are poor.
Everyone is different. Everyone has different priorities and different financial circumstances. Maybe if Nelson had experienced his family plan in circumstances that permanently excluded six-figure incomes and large homes, he would be a bit more prudent in giving his family planning advice to people who are in such circumstances.
|Subject:||Re: We followed that counsel.....|
|Date:||Feb 07 21:31|
|We followed it more by folly than by obedience. But
even with only two kids, that are now 5 & 7 (had when I was 20 &
22), the dream of owning a house seems out of reach, we don't have
health insurance, making poverty wages, and I can tell you right now
that even one more kid would be beyond my abilities. I get frazzled if
they have a cousin or friend over.
If we would have gone to college first (instead of now) and not started having kids until we were financially and otherwise secure... I don't know that I can even imagine that. We'd have our own house by now, and more reliable transportation, and enough money to buy enough healthy food, and insurance, and... I guess we're lucky that at least we somehow forged a secure marriage (which happened after they were born).
Fortunately, I found out about the church being a sham right after DD #2, and was then free to decide that two is enough. I would not have been able to be a good mom to six kids (which is what I had originally been planning.) I bet my mom could have been a better mom if she hadn't had six. In fact, I know it. Poor Mom...
|Subject:||Apostle Nelson tells BYU sheep to start having kids IMMEDIATELY!!|
|Date:||Feb 07 20:33|
|The lawd's master sheep rancher Nelson corralled up
the married sheep in the indoor Marriott stadium and told them to start
having children - NOW!
He hollered down to the sheep that they should stop using birth control and start poppin out future tithe payers BEFORE they can even provide for the new little morgomites!!!
Look at him! What a fine example of a future tithe payer producing machine!!!
"Using examples from his life, Elder Nelson, a surgeon and medical researcher, said he and his wife struggled financially early in his career while he earned medical degrees.
By the time he set up his practice his wife had given birth to five of their 10 children."
10 KIDS!!! The old man would not leave his poor wife alone!!!! As soon as the baby was out he was back in!
"He urged college students in the Marriott Center at Brigham Young University and gathered in LDS Institutes of Religion around the world to visualize their life in 50 years.
By then, careers would be over and faith and families would be their focal points.
"Broad minds and narrow waists would have traded places," he said.
It is FAR better to have FAT ASSES and NARROW MINDS? I guess so! They make better TITHE payers.
It gets WORSE:
He urged his listeners to seek first to follow the teachings of the church before seeking wealth, which includes the commandment to create families.
FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF WHO? OF CHRIST? NO!! FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH, THAT'S WHO
According to Nelson, all married mormons should live in a trailer and have 8-10 kiddies, with no way of supporting them.
I will slap the first mormon who tells me that they are following this "commandment" .
It gets even deeper:
"Temptation and sin exceeds anything we knew in our day," he said.
"Satan is waging war directly at the heart of God's plan — the family," he said.
The age of couples getting married for the first time is increasing, as is the number of unmarried couples, he said. "It takes real faith to withstand this attack," he added.
I can hear a reject RM telling him mommie, "I proposed to her on our third date and SHE SUCCUMBED TO THE DESIRES OF SATAN AND SAID NO!!!"
NO I will tell you why they encourage all of the is ..., They see a generational GAP coming, which means a DIP in tithing!
It sounds like the leadership did a 25-50 year financial forecast and realized they need more members FAST.
And the best place for the highest tithe payers? TBM wombs from the intermountain west.
|Subject:||You nailed it....|
|Date:||Feb 07 20:38|
|The whole thing is sick.
This early marriage/load up on kids crap was one of the first things that drove a wedge between me and the church.
I look at it now and see it for the lunacy it is.
|Subject:||What a Idiot!! How can they afford to have kids if they are paying tithes, etc to the morg?|
|Date:||Feb 07 20:46|
|Somehow make the taxpayers to pay for all their kids I guess.|
|Subject:||I was thinking about that earlier.|
|Date:||Feb 07 20:47|
It really irritates me that people will have children before they are
able to take care of them. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a 1
child policy. I just can't stand it when children end up victims in such
I think the morg does it to keep the parents in. I know that plays a part for some. They don't dare leave the morg because they would lose their kids in divorce.
That the morg would screw around with the lives of children just rubs me the wrong way. At the very least they should insure that the children can get adequate care--maybe they could use their tithing $$$ for that instead of shopping malls.
If we're lucky, many members will just ignore it as they did from earlier leaders.
|Subject:||That's exactly what they're doing.(cussing)|
|Date:||Feb 07 20:49|
|They know that the only way to get more tithe-payers is to encourage the BIC brainwashed kids to get married at 19 for girls, and 21 for boys so they'll pop out 10 kids. This is one of the many reasons I'm not in the Morg anymore, according to them, I was "selfish" for wanting to finish my education and have a career before even considering children. I'm not selfish, I'm sensible and if they have a problem with that, Hell With 'EM!!!! People who are struggling to pay the basic bills after the Morg sucks out 10% of their income can't afford the costs of having children.|
|Subject:||The time between age 19 and 24 was critical for me...|
|Date:||Feb 07 23:10|
|It was during that time period that I finally
figured out that I couldn't believe the teachings of the church because
I couldn't find sufficient reasons to believe. Fortunately, my doubts
kept me from getting married and locked into the whole temple-marriage
trap. But with just a bit more pressure, I can see how I may have been
guilted into doing just that, which would have made it so much harder,
if not impossible, to divorce myself from the LDS church.
I think that for a decade or so the Brethren ever so slightly reduced the pressure for early marriage and huge families. But the demographics are catching up to them as they realize that they've got to lock in the BIC kids with "family responsibilities" as soon as possible. The worst thing that can happen is to have the whole next generation spending time thinking, researching and figuring out that the "Gospel" is just verbal smoke and mirrors manipulated by very ordinary, flawed men--just as the great Oz was just a smoke-and-mirrors apparition manipulated from behind a curtain by a humbug con-artist.
If they don't lock the kids in at an early age with temple marriages and the endless responsibilities of Mormon parenthood, the kids are going to start thinking and developing minds of their own--and you know that ain't good because the kids who start thinking are going to start leaving.
|Subject:||More desparation from the brethren.|
|Date:||Feb 07 20:52|
|"Oh crap! We're not breeding fast enough to replace the previous generations and defectors! At this rate the church will die in... Quick! Everyone start having sex!"|
|Subject:||Dude! The brethren are geniuses!|
|Date:||Feb 07 20:52|
|Start popping out those babies right away so that
you're trapped in a marriage that you rushed in to and see no way out.
Makes sense from the Morg perspective. That way, all the questioning
RM's get sucked in with a non-wavering faithful gal and she's
"spiritual" enough for the both of them.
You see, that's just brilliant. Get the questioning young men (or women for that matter) to rush into marriage with a true believer then if they do find their way out of the church mentally, they feel trapped physically and can't leave due to TBM spouse. Creates a whole new generation of tithe-paying going-through-the-motions Mormons who are closet disbelievers.
The important ting is, they will pay their 10% to the Lard's one true church to maintain the facade. We all know that the almighty buck is what drives the church these days. LOL!
Boy, those guys are brilliant!
|Subject:||That's the way to keep women in check.|
|Subject:||I know a few families who followed such idiotic counsel and|
|Date:||Feb 07 20:56|
|the result was perpetual poverty and a terrible
strain on the marriages.
Often, young couples cannot dig themselves out of the financial hole the Mormon church pushes them into.
This is stupid advise from leadership, and entirely self-serving. Damn cult.
|Subject:||Oh just peachy... evil bastard, preaching irresponsibility!|
|Date:||Feb 07 21:04|
|Oh great. So in the afterlife will he be the one
accountable for all the dysfunctional families and individuals caused by
How many kids will die or have health problems because their parents are too poor, with no health insurance?
How many mothers will die or have health problems because they are poor and having too many kids too fast?
How many criminals or dysfunctional individuals will be created because of kids being raised in huge families whose parents can't give enough attention to each of their children? You might call that NOT being raised. (I'm from a big family - it's not fair to the kids. Or to the parents when it wasn't their idea to begin with, and they thought it was a commandment that their faith demanded following.)
How many self-esteem/mental health/suicide issues for the kids and the harried parents?
How many of these situations will be exacerbated when fathers become work-a-holics trying to support the huge family that they're also trying to avoid by being at work all the time?
Quantity of life, not quality of life, huh? Not that it will affect Elder Nelson's life, other than the tithing flowing into his pockets. And someday his sons' pockets, if they hold to the rod.
This crap may well be worse than the wide-spread church attitude of kids marrying the first person they see, quick-before-they-copulate-or-touch-each-other-bind-them-in-an-eternal-marriage-contract! Even-if-we-have-to-plan-the-wedding-in-weeks-and-have-it-in-our-living-room-standing-room-only!!!!!!!!!!!!11111one
Hmm, skip your dream wedding and marry someone you barely know (possibly a psycho) and then have guilt heaped on you if you ever consider divorcing your eternal partner? Or denounce birth control and pop out babies you can't properly care for? Hmmm... church says BOTH!
|Subject:||The Suits Run Their Lives|
|Date:||Feb 07 21:20|
|When will the sheep get it through their heads that
family planning is up to their family and not the suits in Salt
I know, I know. Never. Or at least, not until they get out of the church or at the very least start questioning it & realizing that bad advice can come out of Salt Lake and their local Bishop/SP's office.
Until then, it's no wonder the rank-and-file are anti-choice. They see nothing wrong with the government making such decisions for people. "Gosh, let's all put our health and lives in the hands of the authorities! They know what's best for us! (especially when it comes to punishment)" Baa-aa-aa!
|Subject:||Yeah, but you'll be blessed.|
|Date:||Feb 07 21:29|
|Blessed with what exactly?
Will the university just give you your degree then if you have to drop out to work enough to feed a bunch of kids? The wife can't work outside the home of course, so she can't help financially. Plus the only job she's allowed to have is to care for the kids, right? Maybe BYU would even upgrade your degree to a masters if you had over a certain number of kids by a certain age.
Maybe your manager at 7-11 would quadruple your wage if he finds out you quit school in order to work enough to put food on the table for your growing family.
Maybe Blue Cross would just give you health insurance, too.
Maybe you'd be blessed to go on welfare.
|Subject:||BYU Baby Breeders|
|Date:||Feb 07 21:52|
|Author:||Lily (I toil not for the morg)|
|This "sacred counsel" is messing up lives
right now. I have a co-worker who, poor fellow, goes to BYU. He just got
married this month, he's 23 with several years of school to finish, and
she's 22. When he came back to work from his honeymoon, he was quite
subdued, not his usual loud self at all.
He knows I'm a "flaming liberal" and about a week after he'd been back, he approached me and asked what I think about people that age having babies, just married and still in school. For once he agreed with my take on things. That's worse than utter nonsense, that's HARMful. He told me that his wife did a 180 on the baby issue after a week of marriage and was maybe going to forget to take her pill and said "don't get mad at me if I have a baby." As might be expected, that maketh him one unhappy camper. He's pushing for her to hold off until after their summer vacation and seems to think that's quite a victory.
|Subject:||Re: BYU Baby Breeders.... Morlocks vs Eloi|
|Date:||Feb 07 22:26|
|This sounds a lot like the Morlocks (Ga's) and the Eloi (members), from the mind of, H. G. Wells', " The Time Machine." Where the Morlocks were cultivating the Eloi people for food, the church is cultivating the members for money.|
|Subject:||How much do you want to bet that the more egregious parts of this speech...|
|Date:||Feb 07 23:04|
|Will be edited out of the official record in the not
too distant future.
I heard a similar speech from Elder Ballard as a freshman at BYU in 1987, telling men they should marry within 6 months after returning from their missions. Women were to "try" to marry before 21 and otherwise go on missions and marry ASAP on their return. The speech was quite controversial even among BYU TBMs. I remember his specific suggestions quite well because they were a topic of conversation for several weeks afterward. Anyway, I found the transcript online a few months ago and all references to "marriage within 6 months" etc. were edited out.
|Subject:||Elder Nelson needs (in no particular order) ....[a tad of vulgarity]|
|Date:||Feb 07 23:32|
|1) his medical license revoked.... 2) an
intervention by Planned Parenthood or anybody with 1/4 of a brain and 3)
his ass kicked.
That is some irresponsible advice and it sounds like the crap the old time LDS would espouse.
It sounds like the old guard is mighty nervous that their income stream is gonna be seriously disrupted in the near future ...
|I love this part from: deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595072079,00.html
In Utah, the reasons [for so many bankruptcy filings] "extend to larger family size, higher charitable contributions and lower-than-average per-capita income levels, Matthews said."
In other words, they're poor, they have too many kids and they pay tithing. Yup, that's a recipe for the celestial kingdom -- and Chapter 7.