The Death of Reason and Freedom


Aug 02, 2005


Enigma  (Webmaster note:  He is forced to be an active Mormon to maintain his marriage.  This in unfortunately common.)


This story is also on the biography board of at Biography and Story Board

The Death of Reason and Freedom


I was born into the church by parents whose lineage goes back to the founding of the LDS church. While they had their faults and mistakes, I was raised in a loving home with a very dedicated mother and father. They were wonderful examples to me of faith and endurance in trying circumstances and they tried every day to center their family’s life on the principles of the LDS Gospel.

I was born with a membrane disease in my lungs that nearly took my life at birth. My parents, extended family and several members of their local LDS congregation fasted and prayed many times on my behalf. My parents had already endured the devastation of losing their first-born son two days after his birth and they begged God not to take me. By virtue of the fact that I am writing this, I am there miracle baby. I was spared.

I went through all of the LDS Church rights of passage: Baptism at 8, priesthood at 12, president of my priesthood quorums, Seminary graduate/scripture mastery, mission at 19, marriage at 23 and two beautiful daughters by the age of 28. By all accounts I was on the highway to heaven. I was the good son with the ideal family, budding successful career, faithful service in church callings, and extensive understanding of the LDS gospel.


In January of 1995 I prepare to go through the temple for the first time in preparation for my mission. I have been taught through the years that I would learn all that was necessary to gain my salvation by going through the temple. I believe it to be the pinnacle of true worship. I have expectations of learning great things through the covenants and true order of prayer as these parts of the temple have been quietly intimated to me through the years by my parents and teachers.

My parents, grandparents, various uncles and aunts and myself meet at the Idaho Falls Idaho temple on a bright clear Saturday morning. I am a little nervous about the unknown but tremendously excited that I have reached this point in my life. I have one older sister who had made some serious mistakes and fallen away from the faith during her teen years. I am the first of my parents children to ‘make it’ to the temple and it is the healing balm for their souls to see their oldest son ‘staying the course’.

…Let me take you now through my first experience in the temple…

I get my temple clothing packet from the rental counter. The first two whispering questions surface to my conscious mind…

~What is this clothing for?

~Why are there moneychangers in the temple?

‘No matter’ I rationalize, I am hear to receive enlightenment and make covenants in the House of the Lord. I go with my father to a small room that serves as some kind of office. There, the temple president explains to me the sacred nature of the Garment and the need to wear it from this point on as a shield and a protection. I go through the Washing and Anointing and New Name ceremony without much concern. I accept these ordinances based on references in the bible regarding the washing and anointing of priests and the periodic assignment of new names to various biblical patriarchs in the Old Testament.

I proceeded to the waiting chapel to sit and meditate until the time of the next session. The time has arrived and the company of people assembled in the chapel is ushered into the creation room (the Idaho Falls Temple still has separate creation, garden, telestial and terrestrial rooms with the video and audio segments appropriate for those parts of the ceremony queued up in succession). I sit and wait.

~The company is seated…

~The lights grow dim…

~I sit silently in the darkness...

~This is the beginning of the end…

“You will be required to take upon yourselves sacred obligations, the violation of which will bring upon you the judgment of God. For God will not be mocked…”

~I feel fear in the darkness…

“If any of you wish to withdraw rather than receive these covenants of your own free will and choice, you may now make it know by raising your hand…”

~I look around in the darkness…

~I see my family silhouetted in the darkness…

~I feel fear in the darkness…

~I remain seated in the darkness…

I witness the creation and go into the garden room. The fruit is eaten. The fall has commenced…

“Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!”

“Brothers and Sisters put on your aprons.”

~I obey Satan…

I make my first covenant to obey God’s law and keep his commandments. I see the sisters bow their heads in submission to their husband’s. I am now ready to receive the first token of the Aaronic Priesthood with its accompanying name and sign.

~What is a token?

~What will I do with it?

I receive the first token: A secret handshake.

~A secret handshake…

I make the sign. I make the covenant. “I, Jesse, solemnly covenant before God, Angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that I will never reveal the first token of the Aaronic Priesthood with it’s accompanying name and sign”

~A secret combination…

All my life I have been taught from the Book of Mormon that secret signs, oaths and societies are from the devil. They are responsible for the destruction of civilizations and untold misery.

~I have joined a secret society…

~I am now a part of a secret combination…

~I feel fear…

Adam and Eve are cast out of the garden. I go into the telestial room.

~Satan is looking at me…

“I have a word to say concerning these people. If they do not walk up to every covenant that they make at these altars in this temple today, the will be in my power…”

~I feel terror…

Satan is cast out. I receive more tokens and signs. I put on strange clothing.

~I look at my father…

~His face a mask of concentration, staring resolutely ahead…

~I look at my mother…

~Her face devoid of emotion, following by rote…

I look around at all the other patrons following en masse. All dressed in strange ceremonial clothing. All bow their heads and say yes.

~I am in a cult…

~My mind whispers quietly: Please God no…

“Each of you bow your head and say yes.”

The company chants in unison: “YES”

~I am trapped…

~My mind screams: PLEASE DEAR GOD NO!


~I bow my head…

~I say “yes”…

“Raise both hands high above the head and while lowering the hands, repeating three times the words: O God, hear the words of my mouth”

~Everyone raises their hands…

~I raise my hands…

~Everyone repeats the chant…

~I repeat the chant…

The sound of many voices as one has a numbing effect…

~I am no longer an individual…

The True order of prayer is introduced. I feel relief. Finally a prayer to sooth my tortured mind. We gather in a circle around the altar. This sisters veil their faces. We do not pray. We make the signs of all the tokens of the priesthood. We each take the hand of the sister to our left in the patriarchal grip, raise our left arms to the square, and rest them on the shoulder of the person to our left.

~The officiator kneels…

~He begins to pray…

“Those in the circle will repeat the words of the prayer”

~We repeat the words of the officiator…

~Our words are a monotone chant…

~I am in a séance…

The sound of many voices as one has a numbing effect…

~I am no longer an individual…

~I feel my mind growing numb…

~I obey…

~I accept…

I pass through the veil after receiving the name of the second token of the Melchizedek Priesthood and go into the celestial room. Family congratulating me in hushed and reverent tones surrounds me. I sit for a moment to ponder.

~I am in a cult…

~Dear God what have I done?

~I am in shock…

~I have learned nothing…

I visit the temple repeatedly to gain more insight. None comes. I just accept it all as I have been taught to do and eventually the questions and doubts are silenced as the euphoria of accomplishment enshrouds me.

~I made it…

~I am one of the elite…

~This is the beginning of the end…


After my first time through the temple, I learn from my mother that the ordinances have been changed recently. I simply nodd in acknowledgement of here statement, still too shocked to really respond to this revelation. Looking back, it was the perfect time to broach the subject, as I would not give it another thought for 10 years.

While on my mission I become aware of the existence of the Masonic order. I learn that Joseph Smith was a Mason. I learn of the similarities between the Masonic and Temple ceremonies. I learned that the temple endowment ceremony was introduced within two months of Joseph Smith’s induction into the Masonic Order. I learned that Joseph restored the endowment to its full purity from its ancient and corrupted Masonic origins. I am too indoctrinated as a missionary to even entertain a concern about the whole situation. I accept it all.

In my second year of college in 1999 a fellow student, upon learning that I was a Mormon confides in me that he used to be a Mormon but that he left because of the Book of Abraham. As I listen, he explaines to me that is was nothing more than a common Egyptian funerary text and that Joseph Smith’s translation was completely false. He tells me how everybody told him to ‘read this or read that’ writing written by various apologists to explain away the problem but none of it made any sense. He summarizes by saying that maybe he doesn’t have enough faith. He cannot reconcile the glaring inconsistency. My faith was unwavering. I feel pity for him.

By the end of 2004 I am a traditional believing married Mormon Father of two with a home in the northern Utah suburbs and a college degree completed. I am in the elder’s quorum presidency, working in my field of interest and life is good. Over the last few years, I have encountered and ‘resolved’ to my satisfaction a multitude of evidences and questions that would shed doubt upon the divinity and authenticity of the church. I am a stalwart member. In October of 2004 I get a job offer within my company for a position at the corporate headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia. My wife and I prayerfully consider and accept the offer. This is the first big move for us. My wife’s father works at the Bountiful Utah temple and he and his wife are preparing to serve a mission. We sell our home during the Christmas season and move to a small suburb north of Atlanta in January 2005. We are now on our own.

Shortly after our move to Georgia, my wife relates to me a phone conversation she had with her parents (they call usually once a week) in which her father mentioned in passing that the Initiatory ordinance had been changed. The comment passes and the conversation continues. All is well.

~All is not well…

~Deep inside my mind, a thought emerges…


~It keeps gnawing at me…

~I can’t seem to shake it…

~I’ll get over it…

I take the time one day to peruse the junk mail and run across an Oprah mail order book club list. I am browsing through the titles when I come across the title: Leaving the Saints: How I Lost the Mormons and Found My Faith by Martha Beck. I am intrigued and I read the brief description. I am always interested in why people leave the church if only to reinforce the various arguments I have constructed to bolster my faith. I do a search online at work and find that this is the daughter of Hugh Nibley, the most renowned church apologist. I read a few excerpts online…

~There is a crack in the foundation of my fortress of faith…

~The Book of Abraham is back…

~For reasons I know not, I cannot ignore it this time…

I begin to read. I read stories online about why people leave the LDS church. I read for two months. I collect their stories. I laugh with them, cry with them, I sympathize with them.

I am now in violation of question number six in the temple recommend interview: “Do you affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or do you sympathize with the precepts of any such group or individual?”

~I bow my head and say yes…


~I begin to think…

~I begin to question…

~I begin to doubt…

~I begin to learn…

~I begin to awaken…

I spend every available break time at work reading on the Internet. I revisit all of my concerns with an objective point of view. The evidence is devastating. It has been here all along and I have refused to see it in the light of rational thought. I have forcefully refused to use the brain that God gave me for over 10 years. I drink from the fountains of knowledge like a man dying of thirst. I have never felt so liberated. I ask God if what I am doing is right. I feel an incredible sense of peace and love envelope me and I know in my heart and mind that what I am doing is right.

~I am an individual!

~I am alive!

~I am free!

I am… married to a devout Mormon woman and I have two daughters. I am… in the elder’s quorum presidency. I am… in a large Mormon family that, with only 2 exceptions, is all devout believers. I start to think again. We are on our own now. Family is thousands of miles away. I begin to hope. If I make the information passively available, my wife will listen to the voice of reason. I share my concern of the changing temple ordinances with her. She is shocked but tries to understand and agrees that I need to prayerfully study my concerns to get the answers that I am seeking. I bring ‘By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus’ by Charles Larson home to casually read.

I am reading more and more each day. Finding a special thrill in entertaining serious questions and using my reason and intellect along with inspiration to find the truth. I am learning to love absolute truth without loyalty to any organization. It has truly set me free. I can question anything! I can reach my own carefully thought out conclusions! No information is off limits! I can truly exercise my mind! It is incredibly intoxicating.

~I know the truth now…

~The Mormon Church is a man made institution…

~It has no claim to exclusive authority…

~I know…

~I am so happy…

By this time I have stopped paying tithing. I am getting a better handle on the family finances as a result. I am cultivating a more tolerant and loving worldview. I am less judgmental. I no longer view life through the confining prism of Mormonism.

~The freedom is intoxicating…

~I don’t tell my wife…

~This is my fatal mistake…

Thursday, July 28th, 2005: we come to an emotional confrontation that lasts until four o’clock in the morning. Because I now hold the church in suspect, my wife tells me that our marriage is based on a lie. She tells me that she wishes that our children had never been born. She tells me that she does not want her daughters raised in a home with an unbeliever.

~I read the writing on the wall…


Friday, July 29th, 2005: I come home from work and my wife tells me she has come to some conclusions. We sit and talk. She has read ‘By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus’. She tells me that the truth is anti Mormon. She has thrown away the book. She tells me that Satan is tempting me with the facts. She tells me her testimony is unshakable. She tells me that in order for her to support me in my journey, I must do things her way. I must study only the scriptures and approved church scripture study guides alone and with her. She tells me I must put aside the facts and the truth for now. If at the end I still feel that the church is not true, she does not know what she will do. She may go into therapy. She may leave me. She may take my children away. She has called her parents and my parents while I am at work. They have all agreed to open their homes to her immediately if necessary. She tells me that my parents are prepared to come to my home this weekend and if necessary, she will go back with them. She has set an appointment with the bishop for Sunday morning.

~I am trapped…


Saturday, July 30, 2005 – midnight: I cannot sleep. I go to the downstairs living room. I lay on the couch. I talk with God. I know the truth now. I love my family more than life itself. I would rather die than lose my children.

~Truth is irrelevant…

~Truth must be ignored once again…

~Facts must be buried once again…

~Freedom must be surrendered once again…

~I put on the blindfold…

~I put on the shackles…

~I am a voluntary prisoner in my own mind…

~I commit intellectual suicide tonight…

~I commit spiritual suicide tonight…

~I do this willingly, fully aware of the consequences, for the rest of my life…

~Freedom and reason are buried under the crushing weight of the foundation of my prison…

~I cry tonight…

~My soul dies tonight…

I go to the bishop Sunday morning. I say what is necessary. I will conform. I talk to my parents that night. I will conform. Because I love my family more than life itself I will conform. This is the legacy of Mormonism: conformity. I voluntarily submit myself to the horrifically comforting mental conditioning once again. I close forever the covers of enlightening literature. I will read and understand only what is approved.

~It is so easy…

~It is so simple…


~I understand…

~I bow my head and say yes…


~Buried in the recesses of my conscience, there will always be a bright spark of pure truth…


~I know…


To those of you on the outside reading this, I beg you, please do not forget us. Please remember the hundreds of thousands of unique, special, beautiful individuals that are currently serving life sentences in the prison of Mormonism. Please do not cease to pray; to whatever God you serve, for our deliverance. Some of us have no hope for redemption or liberation. For the greater good, we willingly sacrifice our souls upon the altar of conformity and orthodoxy. Our pain is real. Our sentence is absolute.

I will always hold out hope that one day, perhaps within my lifetime though not likely, that pure truth will prevail. I hope someday that the desire to understand the truth at all costs will override the desire to maintain tradition and conformity. Until that day I will try to find some grain of happiness somewhere, anywhere, in the spiritual abyss that I have willingly entered into.

~I bid farewell to progress…

~I bid farewell to truth…

~I bid farewell to reason…

~I bid farewell to freedom…

To those of you on the outside, I thank you. I thank you for your courage. I thank you for your wisdom and insight. I thank you for your compassion and understanding. I thank you for your stories. I thank you for showing me the truth and allowing me to bask in its warmth, even if for a small moment. I love you all. I hope that truth will ultimately prevail. I hope that you and I will live to see it.

Until that time, I go, quietly, shackled and blinded once more into the prison that awaits me. I bid you all farewell.

Remember me…

Remember us…

~I feel myself submerge once again into the group…

~I feel the darkness close around my mind…


~It feels so comfortable…

~So familiar…

~It doesn’t hurt very much anymore…

~I feel my identity slipping quietly away…

~I am no longer and individual…

~I bow my head and say yes…




Our stories are almost exactly alike


Aug 02 15:15



Enigma, for whatever scant and fleeting comfort the observation offers, I want to say that what you've described is very common.

After making my spiritual and intellectual escape from the Morg, I spent another four years in the Hive-mind until my wife was ready to leave. And EVEN THEN our TBM parents (particularly my Uber-TBM MIL) did what they could to break up our marriage and family.

This passage had a particularly familiar flavor:

"She may take my children away. She has called her parents and my parents while I am at work. They have all agreed to open their homes to her immediately if necessary. She tells me that my parents are prepared to come to my home this weekend and if necessary, she will go back with them."

Exactly the same thing happened in my case, although it was her parents, not mine, who were "on standby" to come and "rescue" my wife and kids from their apostate "Lamanite" husband/father. A few years ago, when my wife was finally ready to de-Morgify herself, my parents very thoughtfully commented that she "should have divorced Will a long time ago." My TBM older brother has said likewise.

I genuinely wish that I could get in touch and help you somehow. The one advantage you have is that you live outside the Corridor and don't work for a Mormon boss (we're in the midwest, but my boss is Second Counselor in the local Stake Presidency).

Stay strong, and as others have exhorted, keep reading.



ADMINISTRATION...How many times have we heard these stories!? Can you ARCHIVE this post and...


Aug 02 17:28



perhaps create a special Topic File dedicated to this problem alone? There is such a great need here!



Yes, Archive this. Enigma, my heart breaks for you...


Aug 02 17:52



Nobody should have to sell their soul and integrity to keep their family. Rotten Goddam cult! Your eloquent words are so moving and evocative of one sentenced to life with no parole in the Morg.




Have you read "Mormon Enigma?" it is marignally accepted by TBMS and a great read IMO to show some real "truth."


Aug 02 14:26



You should if you haven't.

I really liked your prose, powerful to say the least.

I really know how you feel. One thing different is my wife hasn't attempted to throw away my reading material.

Your use of "darkness" was so apt. I got chills. That is the perfect metaphor for Mormonism!



Language warning! Language!


Aug 02 15:04



Damn you for breaking my heart like this! I'm too pissed off to even see straight. Don't let the fucking cult of mormonism win. Do not surrender!

Maybe you need to retreat and prepare to battle another day, but DO NOT SURRENDER!

Both sets of parents are willing to host your family just because you want to exercise your right to freedom of religion? Both sets of parents who should know better that to stick their fucking noses this far into your marriage are fucking up big time. It doesn't matter that your wife has invited them in, They should recognize that they have crossed a boundary and to do it behind your back is reprehensible.

I admire your patience but I don't think I could do it. This is nothing but terroristic, emotional blackmail. Living that kind of a lie is going to cost you more that you realize.

I faced a very similar situation about 8 months ago. The only differences are that my parents are both dead and I have 5 kids. My wife pulled the same strong arm technique and actually tricked me into visiting with the stake president. I refused to be manipulated. I walked out of the stake presidents office and walked home. When I got there the bishop and the stake president were both there helping my wife pack. She went home to mother.

Even then with the very real threat of divorce hanging over my head I could not submit to the fraud that is mormonism. I used the situation as an opportunity for a clean break. I tossed the holy garments into the garbage and drafted a letter of resignation and sent it to the COB the bishop and the SP. What did the bishop do? He promptly called my wife at her mother's to tattle on me. Did it do him any good? Fuck NO!

After several days my wife realized that maybe, just maybe I was not actually a minion of Satan. Maybe 16 years of a good marriage deserves a chance to overcome something like this. Maybe life as a divorced and single mother isn't what she really wanted. And it probably helped that I made it clear that if she did divorce me I would insist on shared custody and my children would be taught the truth of mormonism. I also made it clear I would not put up with ultimatums or other childish behavior. I let her know that I had talked with divorce attorneys and was prepared to respond if she initiated that sort of action. This wasn't done in anger but in soft loving tones. I let her know that my love for her had not changed and I was more that willing to do whatever I could to work things out for our bennefit and for our children.

I've got to tell you that she respects my position now. She still thinks I'm wrong but acknowleges that I'm doing what I think is right. If I had caved to the pressure I wouldn't have her respect and worse, I would have no respect for myself.

Things are working out for us. My family is still together and we are once again making happy memories together. It might not have worked out that way, but what kind of father would I be if I couldn't stand up for truth?

You've got make your own dicisions but please consider the ramifications of giving in to a stupid, fucked up cult. Will the short term losses you prevent outweigh the long term price you will pay?

Good luck my brother,





this is something to think about, too


Aug 02 18:50



I think it depends on the spouse. You say you had a good marriage - that's probably why it withstood this. Some people realize that their spouses really are emotionally immature and prone to emotional manipulation even before losing faith in the church, and this wouldn't work.

My only advice is to not threaten divorce unless you are willing to go through with it.



Just to clarify...


Aug 02 21:31



I never threatened divorce. She was the one to bring it up, I just let her know that if she decided to go that route I was prepared to let her. I then pointed out that it would be much smarter for us to stay together at least until she finished school.




This won't last


Aug 02 15:28



Few people can pull off living the Mormon lie once they know better. Your wife is unreasonable.

You have moved from the Morridor to the Bible belt, make your move NOW before you have more kids and face a Utah divorce court.

See a lawyer and find out what your legal options are in the great state of Georgia - just in case your wife decides to split with the kids while you're at work.

You need to get paperwork started so she can't leave the state with the kids without your permission!!!!!

And be sure to mention you want to get out of the Mormon cult to the Court and the fight for your kids' souls, that should go over well with a Southern judge.

Protect yourself and your rights, this won't get any better, BE PREPARED!



Re: The Death of Reason and Freedom


Aug 02 15:31



Enigma, i am with you on this. I feel like you are my American Dopelganger.
I’m English, married to a Ultra TBM, 2 kids etc. I grew up in the church and went through the temple. I’m 27 now and i almost feel like my life is over. I found out the church was false 2 years ago and have been unable to leave since then. My husband (who used to be bishop in our last ward) says he doesn’t know if he can live and stay married to me if i leave. I uphold 2 small callings and go to all the meetings.......but i feel nothing (well....I feel anger most Sundays).......I feel like the church is eating me alive and there’s not enough left of me to put up a fight.

I have no words of comfort, only that I feel your pain.





Aug 02 15:34



Wow! your story was very touching, I can relate! I am in a similar situation. I have known the truth for almost 2 years. My TBM wife is not so tbm any more I have been helping, nudging her along the path of truthfulness.

Every situation is different and we are all different so I will not suggest to you what you may or may not do, I know that for me, I will not surrender but I will conform only to a very small degree, I don't pay tithing but I attend with my wife and kids, I don't accept any callings but I support my wife's calling. She is now willing to read and has brought up questions and it is my hope that she will go through the same process as I have, but it may take longer, I am willing to wait as long as it takes for I love my family more than anything and am willing to sacrifice to hold on to them. Good luck! and hope things will brighten up for you!



I am crying inside.


Aug 02 16:21



This too is my story...I feel your pain more than you know....I have tried to kill the reason and truth but it keeps coming back with the thoughts "I have done nothing wrong". I have only used my mind, my reason, my internal ability to know truth from fiction. My marriage is about to collapse for the lie...Oh God, what a lie.

Thank you for sharing,




my heart breaks for you


Aug 02 16:41



Thank you for such an eloquent post. If I had been faced with such a decision, I likely would have taken the same course you have taken, rather than be separated from my children.

Your wife has made a cruel choice, but she knows she has support behind her to do so. Perhaps one day she will see what this cruel choice will do to her family. One day your children will be grown and on their own, and she will be left with the tatters of her primary relationship, likely destroyed.

I cannot understand these sort of parents, who claim they love their children but hold them hostages in their determination to control their spouse. How do they imagine God would approve of such an act, even if the church were true?

My heart goes out to you. But I think you made the right choice. My boyfriend divorced his wife many years ago, for issues unrelated to belief, but she warned him that if he divorced her, she would make sure their children would also no longer belong to him. For many years she made good on that promise by refusing to cooperate in visitation, and back then, father's rights were unheard of. Now that his children are adults, they are able to mend their relationship, but he did lose their childhood.

And their mother probably imagines she has been a good mother.

Narcissists. People not able to step outside themselves enough to be wise enough not to use their children as pawns. Everything is secondary to their desires, including their own children.

I'm being harsh on your wife, and you need to try and find a way to maintain a decent relationship with her, so my comments probably are counterproductive, but I'm venting.



thank you so much


Aug 02 17:00


dancing lamanite daughter

Your post was so beautifully written. I cannot tell you how I was touched. My heart aches for you. I can't say that i understand your position, but I certainly can read the pain you are experiencing. This is criminal. It makes me so angry. I am so sorry.



Very eloquent and moving; however, what is one's price for freedom and truth?


Aug 02 17:05




I read your post and was moved deeply. It was one of the most moving pieces I have read in recent years. I've printed it and shared it with a friend who agrees.

As I contemplated your situation I have asked myself the tough questions. I am married and have four children. My wife, who is very devout and wants to believe, reacted similarly as did yours. She threatened separation, spoke with my family, etc. At first I was afraid I was going to lose my children, but then I said: "No!" I told her that our marriage was not a threesome with the church and if it was she was sick, that if she did not believe in my ability to freedom of expression and reason she had some serious issues to face and that if loved the church more than me I would help her pack her bags. It's been a tough year, but we are making it. It has been difficult, sometimes separation would have been easier. Call her on it. Don't let her manipulate your life, your freedom as she is doing. There are some things that are worse than not tucking your children in every night. Giving up your freedom of expression and belief are worse (in my opinion).

Despite my advice, I am not criticizing you at all. You have some tough decisions ahead, but is your wife really worth is if she treats you this way? I can promise you that your relationship with your children would be affected if she left and was awarded custody, but it would not be ended -it just would be different.

Good luck and my thoughts and those of many others are with my hurting friend.



My thoughts are with you.


Aug 02 17:10


Grape Nephi aka William

You are going to have a very hard time of it for a while. I hope that your wife will some day realize the destructive hold the church has on her.



For those of you in a similar situation...


Aug 02 17:45


Hugh the Free Morgbot

If you are in a situation like this and you haven't got to the step of telling your spouse yet, do like I did and make her promise not to tell, that you will keep it between the two of you to work it out, before you tell her what your concerns are. This has kept my wife from running to the family (or worse, the bishop) to get help, and has left it in our hands to work it out.

Enigma, I know what you are feeling. Even though my wife hasn't run to anyone for help, she is still quite upset about what I have found, and how it may impact our family (two children here too). But in our long discussions in trying to work it out, I think she is starting to see that there may be something to all the "hogwash" I have been sharing with her. It may take months or years to make that lightbulb go off, but I know it will eventually. It did for me, and I fought at first (admittedly, not very hard).

Good luck to you and your family.



Re: The Death of Reason and Freedom


Aug 02 17:50



Hi Enigma,

Welcome to the wonderful world of the faux-mo. Mo on outside, apostate on the inside. It sucks, but its the best that some of us can do.

I can identify and relate to what you say. I have 5 kids (1 on a mission), TBM wife. I have been EQ President, HP Group Leader, Finance Clerk, HP Instructor, and Executive Secretary. I have been a member for almost 25 years.

Three years ago (when feeling like crap) I Googled for "LDS depression." I landed on this site, read a number of the stories and postings, and realized that I had been lied to and deceived.

I will never be able to get my wife (a "Lamanite") to listen, and I will never abandon her or hurt my children in any way.

So I go to the meetings, laugh inside at the utter shallowness and vapidness of what they have to say, and do my best to not split my brain in two.

There are more of "us" than "they" realize. Two years ago I was dragged to General Conference to be "re-converted". While I was there we had dinner with a good friend and former home teacher. As soon as our wives left, we laughed as we tried to break the news to each other that neither of us were true believers anymore. He still goes to the temple, holds a recommend, etc.

Sooner or later this hollow shell of a church will fall, perhaps in our lifetime, perhaps not.

You are in the right, they are not.





Aug 02 18:56



I hope you will not simply surrender. I understand your reasons, and they are very compelling. However, I strongly urge you to consider an alternative to just giving in to the collective mind. Since your children are involved, I won't give any specific advice - I'm just too scared to do that - but I strongly urge you to continue your search, even if you must do it in secret.



Again, we see that probably thousands of LDS people are not believers but are going along to get along


Aug 02 19:41



because a family is more important than some outward show of support for another God Myth that is filled with faith in something that is supernatural and metaphysical. Billions of people over the course of time have most likely done the same thing. You are not alone.

For some, it is a small price to pay for their family.

We have probably all worked for a company that we did not believe in and had to keep working to support the family.
Sometimes, we have to make trade-offs.

You are not trapped. You always have a choice and to all things there is a season.

I had to find the right time to resign and it did not happen initially. It took several years to make the complete break. I decided to stick it out and refused at all costs to let the Mormon Church deprive me of anything! I was not going to be left out. It took awhile to find my way out. It will for you also.

Thanks for sharing your story. It is similar for many of us.

There are many, many who are married to people who are married to Mormonism and it comes first, not us, but for whatever reason, we decide to keep the family together and do it for altruistic reasons. For many, that is enough.

It is not easy to keep the resentment in check, or the frustration at a reasonable level, so we just do the best we know how.



i'm SO sorry this is happening to you! know that you are NOT alone!!


Aug 02 20:00


lost girl

no, my situation is not exactly like yours ... but as a child of a very abusive upbringing i know what it's like to have to pretend to go along with all the crap you have to ... just to survive. you are giving up SO much just so your marriage can survive, just so you can be with your children every single day. what an INCREDIBLE sacrifice on your part!!

so how to survive this? well, what is true for you guys right now is NOT eternal! you will ALL continue to grow and change ... and while it hurts like HELL right now .... you can also be a phoenix and rise from the ashes even better than you were before. you will have to lay low for awhile - you hit her with too much too fast and she reasonably freaked out! but as openly corrupt as the church is so quickly becoming, it won't be long before they say something and you can go to your king james bible and say "hon, this is weird. why did so-and-so just say [Mormons are more loved by god than everyone else] yet right here in the bible it says "god is no respecter of persons"? this is really confusing ... can we go ask the bishop about this?"

... planting a seed of doubt and then taking charge of "appropriately dealing with it".

you can plant many seeds of doubt very "innocently" in this or similar manner, and well ... line upon line you too stand a good chance of winning her over. but it will take time ... so whenever you get discouraged, just look at your beautiful children and thank god for them, and remember that they are worth your sacrifice. i feel that if you play your cards right you stand a very good chance of extricating her from the morg as well, ... but it will take some time.

during that time i'd keep reading & posting here, VERY CAREFULLY!!!, and i'd totally become an unbelievably loving and caring hubby and father .... and then some day when she realizes that you sacrificed SO much for her, that you were apostate to the core all along ... she will also see that you have become the most wonderful husband she could ever hope for! and she will be eternally grateful to you for bring much truth and light into your lives! hang in there, give her time to catch up to you, and all my best to you and yours!



I've heard this story before


Aug 02 20:32



Your story made my heart ache and a lot of that was because it took me back a year or two. At the end of last year I also moved to the Southeast from Utah Valley.

The last year I was in Utah I realized that I worked with two guys who each could have written your story. Although I'd worked with them for several years, it was a long time before they, at separate times, confided in me. I guess after knowing me a couple of years, they knew their secret was safe with me and they just needed someone to confide in. Coincidently, I seriously doubt that even after this amount of time, either of them is aware that the other one, their co-worker, is a closet non-believer.

If you hadn't said you lived in Atlanta, I'd swear you were one of them. He used to tell me that he felt like such a phony, such a hypocrite and how hard that was when he wanted nothing more than to be an honest person and live an honest life. But the trump card was his family. I think it made him feel better when I told him that he was probably doing the right thing by going back and totally pretending (and he was doing a damn good job of it).

I guarantee there are people with your story in EVERY ward and EVERY stake in TSCC. Now that you've decided to play the game--have fun with it. See if you can pick out who the other players are. Every TBM knows someone who is a total non-believer but whom they think is the most spiritual, true-believing mormon they know.



Thanks for reminding me why I left...


Aug 02 21:04



It is so easy to get caught up in thinking about and trying to tell people about the evidence against the church but to me that is just a symptom of the real problem. I left the church because it didn't feel right. People are not happy in the church and anyone who has been in leadership knows the pervasiveness of the pain that runs deep in members’ lives. The manifestation and intensity of the effect differs from person to person and it is as insidious as it is pervasive.

You have given a touching, heartfelt and well articulated example of just how truly evil the church is. Not just because of what it has done to you, which stabs at the very core of my values, but because of what it has done to your wife and ultimately your family.

I was fortunate that my wife and family ultimately left the church as well. I did get to the point though after years of doubt and uncertainty that I could no longer sleep with the sand in my bed. I had to shake it out. I fear for the long term effect this will have on you and I wish you all the very best. It is stories like yours that reminds me that the fight against Mormonism is a good and decent fight that must be fought by those who can and those who care enough to do it.

Love and best wishes,




Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church

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