Subject: True Exmo Would-Be Rockstar Stories: A GA gleefully humiliates sincere Mormons in front of all their friends, or...A Big Regret
Date: Jul 26, 2005
Author: Tal Bachman

This is a true story.

A month or two before everything clicked, but while I was really still struggling to make sense of the whole thing, I went to a meeting at the Victoria, BC stake house presided over by a Seventy for all the stake leadership. For the life of me, I can't remember the guy's name, and I've tried to find it out a few times since online. He was in the Area Presidency, he was pretty portly, he'd served for years as a 70, and strangely, no one that I know of here had ever heard of him, including me. This happened fall of 2003, in case anyone can track down this guy's name. I'll just call him GA. [Later is this thread he is identified as William R. Bradford]

Anyway, despite no one ever having heard of this guy, as you can imagine it was very exciting for the stake to be graced by the presence of an actual GA; Vancouver Island rarely gets such visits. The thrill of all those who filled up the chapel was almost palpable. They would be listening to a man who consorted with the Lord's prophet himself, a man with a special relationship with Jesus.

Okay - this is like one of the worst moments of my life...

GA began delivering his talk. It consisted mainly of outlining fairly standard business techniques, and a plea that stake leaders would utilize these techniques to increase efficiency. In particular, he spent quite a bit of time on what he called "exception reporting" as a way of communicating during council meetings (this is where if nothing is said, everything is assumed to be functioning normally. The only things you mention are exceptions to normalcy. This cuts down meeting times. Anyway, it was a lot of stuff like that).

One other weird thing I might mention is that throughout his talk, he kept referring to "my ministry". He would begin sentences like this: "All throughout my ministry as a General Authority, I have...", "One of the things I have tried to do through my ministry is...", "My ministry has lasted now for over X years...", "Because of my ministry...". I thought this was a bit strange, because he had no profile that I knew of as a Mormon leader at all; and his talk seemed to consist mostly of reciting re-warmed Peter Drucker slogans with nary a mention of Jesus at all, hardly the kind of thing you associate with a "ministry".

Anyway, his talk was alright, UNTIL...

He started rambling about other things; and one of the things he rambled into was the topic of the fairly recent elimination of the calling of stake missionaries. It went like this:

"...and that was around the time that we eliminated the calling of stake missionaries. Now, that was something. How many people, just out of curiosity, have ever served as stake missionaries?"

Well, out of the probably 250 people there, I would say around 80 people raised their hands. I was surprised there had been that many, and my friends, the sincerity and sort of...I don't know how to describe it...humble pride with which my fellow stake members raised their hands in response to this GA's question I will never forget in light of what followed. They were, or so they thought, being recognized and tacitly praised in front of their peers by an actual General Authority. Let me put it this way - the church ain't exactly a big deal around here. To be a stake missionary for the Mormon church in a place like Vancouver or Victoria, British Columbia requires courage and sacrifice. Many of those who had served as stake missionaries, I knew, had put in a lot of time - time away from work and family and home; and in their missionary efforts, had faced almost constant rejection from a well-educated, cosmopolitan population.

Okay, this is no lie. This GA says, "Wow, that is quite a number. Well, you can put your hands down now. A lot of people wonder why we phased out that calling.

"To explain it, maybe I can compare it to my old business. Before I was called to the ministry, I owned a company that grew and packaged berries. Well, during the harvest, we would have everyone go out and pick all those berries, and then we would sort them. We would sort them by grades - Grade A, Grade B, etc. But there was always a bunch of berries that were so rotten or damaged, that we couldn't use them for anything. They were the 'culls', and all we could do was just throw them away".

So, like right here, I'm starting to feel just a little bit uncomfortable; and it kind of felt like it wasn't just me. Then he says:

"Well, let's say you're a bishop. You can't help but look at your ward members in the same way".

And I'm thinking..." couldn't be...."

"You got some people that just thrive wherever you put them; and then you got some that just do alright, and some you have to just push along. And then you got some people that just don't really perform in anything - they're culls. Well, you don't want these people in charge of the Young Men or the Young Women, or the Relief Society or the Elder's Quorum. So what do you do with them? You have to put them somewhere, so 'the culls' end up getting called as stake missionaries. It happened everytime. There was nowhere else to put them. But they didn't really do anything there either, so we just eliminated the whole program".

Okay my friends - I've seen a lot of really crazy stuff in my life, but I was so flipping shocked that I actually thought I might have just imagined the whole thing. He paused, seemingly completely oblivious to how badly he had just humiliated all the sincere members who had just identified themselves at his request like three minutes earlier as former stake missionaries, and the whole room fell silent, and it just seemed like more than my imagination, that there suddenly seemed to be a heavy air of total shock and embarrassment and terrible hurt. Those who'd raised their hands looked like they'd just had stakes jammed through their hearts. My stake president, Randy Keyes, who is a very kind man, was sitting right behind him on the stand, and he looked totally mortified.

I was sitting in a pew next to Pres. Baker, my branch president and a man I was very fond of, and solicitous of, and whispered, "Did...did he just say what I think he said?". And Pres. Baker said, "Yes".

I looked up at this big, smug bully, who as I said seemed completely oblivious to how badly he'd just wounded 80 sincere members, and in that instant, every cell in my body screamed for me to stand up in the middle of the congregation and say, "I don't care who you are, or what your position in the church is: you have no right to talk to people that way, or humiliate them in front of all their friends." And I swear I would have done it (I've done things like that before, though never in church), if Pres. Baker hadn't been there sitting next to me. I knew it would have embarrassed him terribly - the church has no more faithful or humble follower than Pres. Baker - since everyone knew I was his counselor, and in that split second, my entire self screaming, "SAY IT", I glanced at Pres. Baker there with the journal he always brought with him to the meetings so as to keep notes of everything, and just thought, "I can't do that to this guy". In a way, I really, really regret not having done so, but I just couldn't in the end.

What I did do, though, was to stand up, and walk out of the meeting in front of everyone. I went home, and it was never mentioned again by me or Pres. Baker.

Church defenders have a peculiar habit of claiming that there is something uniquely special about the insights, inspiration, and wisdom of Mormon leaders, while at the same time insisting that they be held to no higher standard than any schmo running a hot dog stand, or anyone else. I mean, Joseph Smith's escapades and constant lying would make Bill Clinton himself blush - it really says something about cult-induced blindness that so many Mormons could scream for Clinton's impeachment, when Joseph Smith, a PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, usually acted as though he were entirely conscienceless.

The truth is that a claim that someone has access to the Math God will be completely unbelievable if that person never gets any higher grade on his math tests than anyone else, and so it is with Mormon leaders, just as with Branch Davidian leaders, Scientology leaders, Moonie leaders, Catholic leaders, and every other leaders - they exhibit absolutely no greater ability to intuit, prophesy, behave, teach, clarify, heal, or anything, than any other mortal, and so it is no wonder that their claims look so silly to an increasing number of Mormons and non-Mormons. We all owe a debt of gratitude in this respect to men like Gordon B. Hinckley, Dan Peterson, Louis Midgley, Michael Rhodes, etc., who have done so much over the past decade to expose their own total averageness (and I might say that that's putting it charitably).

Anyway, I thought I'd pass this little story along (sorry I can't remember the guy's name). I wish I would have stood up for all those whose reputations as church members had just been crushed in front of all those whose respect they craved most in the world, by some egomaniacal ignoramus, but unfortunately I didn't; and what's his name is probably still running around humiliating people who have devoted thousands of hours of service to the church and referring to them as "culls", unless the Big Dogs above him have now retired him. I sure hope so.

Feel free to pass on other stories of other brushes with Mormon "greatness", positive or negative.



Subject: Wow!! That's offensive!!!
Date: Jul 26 02:09
Author: T.J.

Maybe the good GA was just using his God-like powers to test them.

Being offended IS, after-all, the first step on the road to apostasy. :)

Subject: my brushes with greatness
Date: Jul 26 02:38
Author: stuck

Some of my experiences aren't negative, just not completely spiritual.

Franklin D. Richards - Came to our mission and didn't really say much. He was very funny and kept talking about which words were the same in German as in English. I really liked him.

Spencer W. Kimball - This guy was a hard worker, whatever else you say. I was at a stake conference, and he stayed to shake everyone's hands. I wanted to stare at him so I moved way down the line and into the crowd, and I'll be danged if he didn't come up to me again and shake my hand. I liked him. Had the courage to give the Priesthood to everyone.

Loren C. Dunn - Yuck! What a jerk! At least he was when talking to missionaries. And I was sitting on the front row and he kept stepping on my feet while moving around. He has huge feet! He left me feeling discouraged and dark, like a dementor from the Harry Potter series.

Camilla Kimball - What a class act. I loved this lady! She got up and said she had done all she could with a non member neighbor and didn't know what else to do. Then she sat down. Made me feel wonderful!

Richard G. Scott - actually quite nice and personable.

Dallin Oaks - I know I might get shot for saying this, but in person he is charming and wonderful, down to earth, and just plain nice.

Thomas Fyans - He was, unfortunately, involved heavily with the baseball baptism era. I had an opportunity to read a confidential mission history once, and he was totally off base with this type of missionary work. Got him promoted though.

S. Dilworth Young - Kind of a crusty old man, but he really had what was wrong with the church down cold. He stood at the back of a chapel before the meeting started and just hung around. He didn't look like much. Wasn't really recognizable. When he spoke later, he ripped the members to shreds because no one shook his hand or asked who he was. Said the Church shouldn't bother with missionary work until they were going to work to keep the members fellowshipped!

Howard W. Hunter - One of the greats. Nice, nice guy. The Lord took him before he could lead the people astray into niceness.

Boyd K. Packer - Had a family member work for church security for a while and this guy is a control freak. Didn't matter who else was handling the emergency, he stepped in and stepped on toes and has probably driven more young men out of the church because of his personal example than anyone.

Bruce R. McConkie - I bumped into him downtown once when I was in a hurry. I glanced up to get around him, like you do, and was shocked to see it was him. He was in a running suit. I remember the look on his face, like surprised that I was surprised, but then we were off. I'm sure he never gave it a second thought, but I'll always remember our moment. Everyone said he had a keen sense of humor in private. One of my friends did a spot on imitation of him, with the deep voice "A Young Couple Came to me....they had sinned..." It was hilarious!

H. Verlan Anderson - I had this gentleman for business law at BYU and he graded based on how closely you mirrored his views. I thought he was interesting.

Cleon Skousen - Wow! What on interesting guy. I had him for Book of Mormon at BYU and was entertained every class period. I had some roommates who hated him with a passion, from out of Utah, of course, and realized later that these were the type of guys who would later become involved with Sunstone.

Malcom Jeppson - This guy once came and taught the combined priesthood of our ward. It's a good thing he isn't higher up or still in leadership, or there wouldn't be so many people leaving. He was so nice, with a great sense of humor, and very down to earth. Why can't more of the apostles be like that!

Subject: more GA obliviousness
Date: Jul 26 02:43
Author: thor hiyadoll

I remember L. Tom Perry attending a sacrament meeting in England where I was serving as a missionary. The members were thrilled when they realized an actual apostle would be speaking in their little, humble English ward. The atmosphere was electric. Brother Tom began his talk by mentioning how some people in England think Mormons are brainwashed. This actually was a sensitive issue in England at the time, and the members perked up immediately because they thought an apostle was going to instruct them on how to counter that accusation. But instead Tom says cheerily, "Brainwashing...I like that word! I know lots of people whose brains I'd like to wash!" Everyone of us in the room felt chills go up our spines. Tom launched into a long spiel about the joys of brainwashing. The members just sat there with their mouths hanging open, hoping like hell none of their friends or neighbors showed up. We all wiped the sweat off our brows when he finally shut up and sat down. As a missionary, I had to bury that episode deep into my cog/dis file in order to maintain my requisite adoration of GA's.


Subject: Re: more GA obliviousness
Date: Jul 26 18:42
Author: newslang

L. tom perry came and spoke to our mission in europe too. i was really excited to hear from a GA in a zone conference. only about 50 missionaries so it was pretty small group. it was so unbelievably anti-climactic. he didn't say anything profound at all. it was just profoundly disappointing. i didn't even get a spiritual high off of it. that pissed me right off. but really he just stood there for about an hour and seriously told us stories about how bruce r. mckonkie would always want to change parts of the book of mormon and the prophet would get irritated and tell him no and "bruce would drop it and go back and write another book...." swear on my life, that is the truth. i was laughing my ass off. maybe bruce was smarter than alot of exmormons give him credit for....

Subject: Neal Maxwell visit to Our Town...'bout, hmm, '98 or so...
Date: Jul 26 03:42
Author: motherjulian

(I'm leaving out the town's name for anonymity purposes.)

Our Town has got a sizeable Mormon population, and in addition, is a hub for rural Mormons in Our State to get together. So since it's bigwig Apostle Maxwell visiting, the Big Indoor Football Stadium is procured as a venue for its many, many, tiny butt-numbing plastic seats. My grandfather (the screaming racist one) happened to be one of the engineers that built it back in the day and he maintained to the end of his life that the whole thing is a small earthquake away from coming down due to too many corners cut on the materials end. But I digress. Anyhow...

His Royal Maxwellness is due to arrive. Our Town, being a woodsy, bohemian, intellectual university town is also home to a fair assortment of non-Mormon crackpots, granolas, communists, pot smokers, free thinkers, radicals, deluded wanderers, what have you. Everything from your unabomber type psychos to plain old non-conformists...just the sort that Mormons can't stand. One of them can't stand Mormons either evidently, because one of them allegedly sent Mr. Maxwell a death threat letter. Now, I worked at the police station at the time as a clerk, and never saw a report or evidence of such a thing occurring, but the rumor made its way through the Mormon population like wildfire.

Not long after the whispers began, a great grumble issued forth from the shining white tower in SLC, and the local Mo populace was threatened with a cancellation of the visit of the great and noble Lord's Annoyer because we had such grievous barbarian letter writers walking the streets.

A collective gasp issued forth from the Our Town stake center at the thought of missing out on the prestige, the honor, the...heavenly brownie points or whatever it is we were all obsessed with as Mormons that a GA visit means to the community. There was nothing said about COB security peeps coming along for the ride, or any other help from the higher ranks in protecting the precious apostolic hide. Our Town either had to ante up with the muscle or lose the Maxwell visit. Thusly, a reassuring missive was sent back to SLC: Don't worry, we have GREAT security. Really!

Then, after assuring the muckymucks at the top, there was a great scramble among the stake admins to actually come up with that great security they said we had.

Our State University, which has its own police force, told the stake it wouldn't special detail anything greater than 2 or 3 marked units for the entire affair. The reason they gave was, of course, that they had the rest of the university grounds to police (2 or 3 units is an entire shift of men for this agency) and since this was a public university, they could hardly associate themselves tooooo closely with a religious gathering on their premises, thank you very much.

Now, two or three cars only...and those fellows would undoubtedly be spending their time dutifully directing the gobzillion Suburbans and other Mormonmobiles in the Big Stadium parking lot...this was simply NOT enough protection from the as-yet unapprehended Kill Neal letter writer.

Enter my father, newly baptized at age 50. I'm ashamed to say that after putting up with his friends at work proselytizing for him for over 30 years and managing to stay nevermo, Dad took the plunge once he saw ME do it after I got married. And just like me, Dad never got anywhere in Mormon society; they treated him like something icky found on the bottom of a shoe. He was too coarse of manner, too tough and had way too sensitive a BS detector...he could tell when Mormon men were giving him a snow job, and he didn't suck up to them when they did that. So he largely got ignored.

He was also a Vietnam pre-SEAL era special ops man, retired police officer with 20 years or so SWAT experience. At the time of The Great Maxwell Visitation, Dad was a private consultant who trained bodyguards and special security details for corporate executives traveling domestically and abroad. When it came to making sure an Elite Personage was well protected, Dad was THE man to go to in Our Town.

And so the bishop called. And Dad was delighted. He loved challenges. They asked, ever so Bishoprickly, if Dad would consider donating his expertise. Donating, as in "We're not going to pay you the thousands you usually earn for this kind of thing."

Dad, being newly Mormon, gladly said yes. He told me he'd consider it tithing of sorts. I was TBM at the time and he and I enjoyed discussing the BOM together, so he clued me in on his plans for uber-tight security for this event. He plunged in whole heartedly, overseeing every step of the operation. He investigated the content and source of the threatening letter. He checked out the venue for possible ambush zones and interviewed the staff that would be working that day, to pick up on any anti-mormon sentiments. He met and held strategy sessions with the off-duty Mormon cops who had volunteered to be escorts for Maxwell. The itinerary was streamlined to provide the least opportunities for confrontation. This took oodles of time and Dad actually put paying clients on hold to ensure the protection of this one Mormon honcho. Dad had planned to be one of the several men posted at the stage area where Maxwell would be giving his speech.

That's when someone pointed something out to the Stake Prez. Something shocking, something terrible and unforgiveable about my Dad: my Mom was not a member of the LDS church!! Now, Mom had done the missionary lessons but had not been baptized with Dad. Her reason: "I just don't dig organized religion, that's all."

Note that her reason was not, "I hate Neal Maxwell and spend my spare time writing death letters."

Still, "I just don't dig it," was somehow taken as a vehement repudiation of all things Mormon and this black slander of hers cast an ill shadow upon my father. The Stake Prez went out himself to see if he could convince Mom to get dunked before Maxwell arrived. Suddenly, Mom seemed as key to the Great Security Scramble as that deranged letter writer.

From what Mom has told me, the SP was rude, demanding, condescending and even threatened Mom with having to "someday watch from below as (my father) was wedded to another, worthier wife in the CK".

Mom politely refused his demand of baptism. She doesn't like to be coerced into anything, and she sure doesn't "dig" polygamy of any sort, even the afterlife kind. Dad backed her up, telling the Stake Prez that he didn't uphold the Constitution with 30 years of service in the military and police department to see his own wife be forcibly told she has to join a certain religion, and he didn't WANT another wife in heaven, just the one nice flower chick he hitched with back in '66.

The SP apologized for coming off so rudely and left. Things went along as planned for the Esteemed Gentleman of the Quorum to visit. Then,at the very, and I mean VERY last moment (the security team was on its way to pick up Maxie-boy at the airport), Dad was pulled aside and simply told that his services were appreciated, but no longer needed. He was not to post himself near the stage during the Apostolic Address, but should rather take a seat in the stands with the rest of the rabble.

Another Mormon off-duty cop (who was about 21 years old, fresh out of junior college--BUT his wife was TBM) took Dad's position.

The speech was horridly boring, from what I've been told, and the letter writer didn't attempt his nefarious plot. He was never caught. And the Big Stadium didn't fall down on the Snotty Mormon Bastards, either. I didn't go to see Maxwell speak after finding out what had happened that morning with Dad. I sat with him on his porch and we tried together, desperately, to reconcile the faith we'd so fervently adopted with the fact that people could take advantage of other people so heartlessly, so capriciously, so...SNOTTILY!!!

We couldn't do it. I left the church about 2 months after that; Dad never went to a meeting of any sort again. After spending all that time and effort trying to protect a man he never met but idolized like all Mormons do...a man who had no inkling of what sort of work had been done for his sake, Dad was crestfallen that someone would reject his offering of service just based on my Mom's unwillingness to join the cult. Now, Dad and I had a few issues in the past, but I am proud of him and his accomplishments. He saved many, many lives in his career. And who knows what would've happened regarding that letter if Dad hadn't tightened up their security? Neal Maxwell owed my Dad and he NEVER EVEN KNEW he existed.

Oh...and Our Town Stake was thanked copiously by the COB for providing such polite, well-trained, discreet and personable men as an escort for Maxwell. There was a glowing letter read in EQ the week after the visit. I found that out by talking to one of the cops who'd done the duty. Evidently, the SP took all the credit for devising the security plan and was glowingly praised by the letter; my father's name was never mentioned to, or by, the COB.

"You will know them by their fruits," indeed.


Subject: what a great story - and how sad -
Date: Jul 26 07:55
Author: questioner

that your Dad was treated so horribly and disrespectfully. After the many experiences i've had in this church for 21 years (am now an ex-mo) i am not surprised. Your Dad sounds like an excellent person.

Subject: A great story indeed...
Date: Jul 26 08:14
Author: et in Utah ego

Your story and Tal's illustrate what I've always observed in mormon culture: the actually humble, "Christ-like," devoted members who willingly give of their time and labor, year after year, are never appreciated or recognized. They aren't in it for the glory, but because they understand "service" to be just a part of what it means to live a godly life.

They deserve to be in a religion or community that has more respect for them.

Subject: And the thing that makes it kind of surreal...
Date: Jul 26 18:21
Author: Sustained and Released

is the fact that these church "leaders" - all the way up to GBH himself - are absolute NOBODIES outside of TSCC. They have no value outside of TSCC, wouldn't be recognized on the street, even by most mormons (except the top brass, of course), yet they they feel entitled to act so imperial.

I actually find myself laughing at the image of these puffed up, tin-plated dictators thinking that they're so important that someone would really care enough to actually assassinate one of them.

I might actually go back to church next time one of these bozos visits my area, just for the chance to act unimpressed around them! ;-}

Subject: Another possibility
Date: Jul 26 10:46
Author: Zip

William R. Bradford, president and general manager of the International Fruit Growers and Shippers before his call. He was first counselor in the North America Northwest area in 2002-2003.

Subject: It definitely could be him! ....
Date: Jul 26 11:10
Author: Reader

His calling then put him in the right location. His profession matches Tal's story. Bradford matches Tal's physical description (I've seen Bradford before, and he is a very large man). The clincher, though, is this: he is well known for giving insensitive and condescending talks to mishies and members. I would bet cash money this was the guy in Tal's story.

Subject: "Quit wasting our time!"
Date: Jul 26 10:20
Author: jillian

While that was not the exact quote, it is spirit of the message!

When I first moved to Provo 30+ years ago I was working with the Young Women. The whole MIA took a Saturday trip to SLC to do the Mormon stuff. Temlpe Square, Beehive House, etc. Someone had arranged an "audience" with one of the GA's. It turned out to be Mark E. Peterson.

We waited breathlessly in his office. He came in and basically spent about 10 minutes talking about how important the GA's were, how valuable their time was, blah blah blah and then we were dismissed. He didn't even offer to shake a hand.

At the time I was uber-TBM, and had just moved to the 'heart of Zion' from the mission field. I was so shocked that someone who was held in such esteem, could be so rude and unfeeling.

Subject: Good Grief, after reading these stories, it's no wonder they ask "Were you offended?" when we leave the church.
Date: Jul 26 11:59
Author: wine country girl


Subject: Re: True courage
Date: Jul 26 13:03
Author: sg

Tal, while you regret you didn't verbally tell the bullying bastard off, I think you said something very clearly. Every one of us knows how much courage it takes to stand up in the middle of a meeting and walk out. You sent a message, and it took gut, genuine outrage and the sensitivity to acknowledge your outrage. Good for you.

Subject: BRADFORD! Yeah, that's him. Also...
Date: Jul 26 16:27
Author: Tal Bachman

I'd like to state for the record that seeing this boob humiliate a bunch of people had nothing to do with my decision to leave the church. I just thought he was a jerk, though I even had mixed feelings about this conclusion. At the time I was still repeating slogans to myself, and believing them, that rendered these kinds of incidents irrelevant to whether the church was what it claims, and kind of minimized them. "Hey, whoever said these guys were perfect?" "Hey, the Lord sent him here to test us!" "Hey, are you going to be like Thomas Marsh's wife, who left the church over a pail of milk?" "I swore a vow to refrain from speaking ill of the Lord's anointed" "What about Peter? He denied the Lord thrice", etc. That's another reason I didn't pipe up - I still maintained a (dwindling) rope of allegiance to the thing, and hadn't yet gotten to the point where I could mentally fathom that the church was not what it claimed at all.

Anyway, yeah, it was Bradford.


Subject: Well, if it's any consolation, Bradford was released from the Seventy in October 2003 ....
Date: Jul 26 17:53
Author: Reader

Thank God for the mandatory retirement age at 70 for the Seventy!

Subject: Good TBMs always have their pat response to this though (words)
Date: Jul 26 22:02
Author: Kim

Good TBMs always have an explanation to completely absolve their royal highness General Authorities of prickishness and assholeism.

And that is: "Well, it was just one of the moments he was speaking as just a man and not as one of the Lord's servants."

This was exactly the same reply I received from my TBM brother on the day that I formally came-out (yes, as gay) to all of my family. My brother had been egging me on about not attending church. I told him that I was an enemy of the Church and therefore was likely not really very welcome there. My brother replied that it was ridiculous to claim that the Mormon Church had any "enemies." I referred him to the 1993 speech by none other than Boyd K. Packer that proclaimed the Church's three main enemies to be Intellectuals, Feminists, and Homosexuals. I told him I was very definitely at least one of the three and invited him to guess which if he didn't already know.

My brother (and the rest of my TBM family) could not believe that BKP would say something that mean and stupid. I assured them that I was NOT making it up.

After convincing them, my brother's conciliatory response guessed it..."Well, it must have been just one of the moments that Packer was speaking as just a man and not as one of the Lord's servants."

Yeah, right. God forbid the possibility (or rather the 100% absolute certainty) that one of the high and mighty is simply none other than a genuine certifiable vicious uncaring arrogant mother-fucking asshole!

Subject: Then the Lord should be correcting them any day now, right?
Date: Aug 10 10:43
Author: Asimov

I know if any of my friends were to publicly announce that intellectuals, feminists, and homosexuals were my "enemies" (or that I thought blacks were "cursed" and "inferior", or that I thought all other religions were "abominations" or that I thought Catholicism was the "church of the devil" and "whore of babylon", or any of the other bullshit that has spewed from LDS pulpits for centuries) I'd correct them immediately, and they'd be publicly apologizing or they wouldn't be my friends any longer.

Of course, because my friends actually talk to me, such easily-corrected problems would never come up in the first place. It's not so easy to misrepresent someone when you're not just pretending to communicate with them.

Subject: Arrogance, lack of compassion, gross stupidity. The poor members.
Subject: I wish you had stood up for those people although
Date: Aug 10 11:00
Author: Wild Mustang

I understand why you didn't. It's unfortunate that TBMs are so "church broke" they can't speak up for what's right even when it hits them and everyone else in the face. What's sadder is that the man you admire isn't worth that admiration since he, as a leader, was in a prime position to come to the defense of his flock, but chickened out. Very sad indeed.

Subject: GA Scott said this.....
Date: Aug 10 11:16
Author: allegro

A man stood up in sac mtg about 2 years ago to bear his testimony. It had only been 4 months since they lost there 2 teen girls(twins) in a traffic accident. He had gone to SLC and had an opportunity to speak with GA Scott. Well, he told him what happened, and instead of giving solace or even sympathy, he said to stop feeling sorry for yourself. The girls are trying to get their work done on the other side and you are preventing them from getting it done. He was to go and just forget about it and continue on with what he had to do on earth.

So, instead of mourning the loss of his children, which is normal, he felt he was a bad person for doing so. I have to admit, this was my first feeling of this church is crazy.

Subject: I'm not totally surprised
Date: Aug 10 12:04
Author: Yse

In Boyd K. Packer's biography you can read how he ridiculed a family member for grieving the loss of her husband.

No wonder so many Mormons have a need for Prozac, this damn church drives them crazy.


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