Subject:

Mormonism is an ALL or NOTHING religion, and it CANNOT be any other way.

Date:

Nov 20, 2006

Author:

KimberlyAnn

I've been accused by my former Bishop and a couple of LDS apologists of being a "black and white" thinker. Some of my extended Mormon family feels the same way. In fact, they felt that way about me when I was a Mormon.

Much of my extended family are inactive LDS, or less than active. As a gung-ho fully believing Mormon, I viewed them with near derision for being too weak to live the Gospel. They had a "take the good, and leave bad" attitude about the church that they still maintain to this day. Although I no longer view them with near derision, I still am unable to comprehend their allegiance to the Mormon church, and their delusion that they can pick and choose what to believe when it comes to doctrine.

According to Mormonism, their prophet is as infallible as Vatican II claims the Pope to be - that means, when declaring doctrine, managing the affairs of the church, and knowing the way of salvation, HE CANNOT MAKE A MISTAKE! God will not allow it! Therefore, a Mormon can do nothing but accept declared doctrine and the way the Prophet runs the church unquestioningly and obey accordingly.

Either Gordon B. Hinckley and every previous prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are one hundred per cent correct concerning church affairs and doctrine, or they are false prophets. There is no other option. And unless the current prophet declares a past prophet's doctrine incorrect, or gets "new" revelation because God changed his mind yet again, then all he said STILL STANDS and that cannot be ignored.

So, deciding to accept the Word of Wisdom because it's "good" and disregard polygamy because it's "bad" isn't doctrinally an option. Anyone who thinks they can do that is utterly deluded. Remaining a member while believing women should hold the Priesthood makes no sense whatsoever. Either God, the creator of the universe, runs his one and only true religion on the face of the planet PERFECTLY through the prophets of the Mormon church, or he doesn't. And if you don't believe God does that, then you shouldn't be a Mormon.

When I was a member, not accepting church doctrine or the council of the Prophet was unfathomable. If I didn't understand something I "put it on the shelf" because to decide I didn't believe it meant the end of my faith. Yes, I may have been a black and white thinker, and may still be in many ways, but I've searched this over and over in my mind, and I cannot comprehend any other option - believe all of Mormonism or believe none of it. As far as I can tell, there is no getting around the fact that belonging to the "One True Church" is an all or nothing proposition.

If anyone wants to keep the good and leave the bad, that's possible in one way - retain the goodness, charity, purposefulness, or other praiseworthy attributes you believe you found in Mormonism and leave the church behind. It's bad. No good it does isn't done better by hundreds of other organizations across the world. Join one of them, keep the good that's in you and drop the cult like the dead weight it is. It's not always easy, but it is worth it.

Kimberly Ann

 

Subject:

Aaaaaaamen, and Amen

Date:

Nov 20 16:45

Author:

Cloud

Countless GA [Mormon general authorities – leaders in SLC] talks, not to mention multitudes of seminary teachers, insist that the Church is either absolutely True, or one of the greatest frauds originating in modern times.

The idea is that you'll be obliged to conclude the former, because how could all those nice old men be lying to you?!
Of course, that's a fallacy. 'Church is a fraud' does not imply 'old geezer leaders are lying'. They could be deluded. (Personally, I think some are lying and some aren't.)

Well said, K.A.

 

Subject:

Silly girl

Date:

Nov 20 16:46

Author:

substrate

Don't you know that you're just a rigid fundamentalist? At least that's what the helpful folks on FAIR [Mormon apologetic site] tell you if you are so foolish as to actually believe what the prophets and apostles taught you.

Funny how those who really believe have no place in the church.

 

Subject:

I've been accused of the same thing.

Date:

Nov 20 17:04

Author:

Evelyn

It infuriates me that they don't follow their own rules...yet I--the one who tried so hard to do everything "right"--was ostracized from church and my extended family while they--the rule breakers--remain in good standing to this day.

This has never stopped confusing me. Why be a member of a religion if you don't believe what it teaches or follow the rules it sets?

 

Subject:

It's amazing isn't it, Evelyn...

Date:

Nov 20 17:16

Author:

KimberlyAnn

It's unbelievable how immediately upon leaving the church, formerly faithful members become objects of scorn to people who never did live the Mormon commandments fully and never will! For some reason, it's infuriating to me!

I need to get all this off my chest before the half-active Mormons in my family gang up on me over Thanksgiving...

KA

 

Subject:

In a recent and rare moment of clarity

Date:

Nov 21 14:50

Author:

Epiphany

I came to understand that my tbm father's understanding of "morality" and mine are simply and forever diametrically different. In short, his understanding of "morality" does not frown upon or see anything fundamentally wrong with hypocrisy. Whereas my understanding of morality holds hypocrisy as basic crime right up there with, or truthfully, superceding any "original sin."

You see, when you throw this unreasonable bias against hypocrisy out, it all becomes so simple, because, "morality" is whatever I/you/they say it is.

I'm still smacking myself on the forehead over this. Why didn't I get it sooner?

 

Subject:

Exactly...

Date:

Nov 20 17:08

Author:

Jn

I look at it this same way. My mom, dad and one sister all want me to try to just look at the supposed "good" and forget all of the bad I have learned about. They think tradition (six generation of faithful LDS) far out-weighs the "truth"... because as they say "how can you ever really know the truth?" I don't buy it though, I don't have to know the truth about the universe to be able to see that Mormonism is a not what it claims to be --- namely, the one and only true path to God.

 

Subject:

same thing here...

Date:

Nov 20 17:11

Author:

adrom

Seminary, instafruit [institute – off campus Mormon classes at a university], SS teachers have all said the same thing "either the church is 100% true or it is all false." They would also say a difference between our church and others is that we have answers whereas others say "rely on faith." Funny thing however is that when you really ask a question, they say "sometimes we have to have faith" huh?!

 

 

Subject:

"There is no middle ground." GBH -- This notion is at the core of Mormonism.

Date:

Nov 20 17:21

Author:

SusieQ#1

"Each of us has to face the matter-either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing."
President Gordon B. Hinckley. "Loyalty," April Conference, 2003.

 

Subject:

Susie Q, I remember GBH's talk! I believed that statement then, and I still do... n/t

 

Subject:

Re: Susie Q, I remember GBH's talk! I believed that statement then, and I still do... n/t

Date:

Nov 20 18:46

Author:

SusieQ#1

I had not been to church in several years when he made that statement in 2003. I was surprised, actually, as it is a take on earlier ones from history.

That pretty much sums it up. All or nothing. It is all truth or all fraud.

Frankly, that is a very strange statement to make! Because if one thing is shown to be wrong, it is all wrong!

 

Subject:

I was told I had this same mindset as a TBM and when I left...

Date:

Nov 20 17:35

Author:

swedeboy

I have always been a follower of the political scene. I have studied, read and in general been very informed in the issues and politics of the day. Once my mother told me that I was "too angry" as I discussed things which I felt were important on the political landscape and that it broke my heart to see so many great things about my country being changed or outright ignored for political expediency. She then told me, "Well why worry, it is all going to be done away with anyway." Stupid TBM thinking of "why worry" Christ will be back anytime now to mop up the whole mess, why try to make the world a better place while we are in the here and now!

When I told my parents that I thought Smith and his cult were nonsensical frauds, the first thing out of my mother's mouth was "It's just like the politics," inferring that my zeal for study and learning about important issues had also lead me out of Mormonism. Stupid, stupid, stupid!

I took Mormonism very seriously. I studied, I learned all that I could as a TBM. And now I see that I was the only one who really did! Damn cult!

 

Subject:

Mormonism was on-again/off-again in my case.

Date:

Nov 20 18:15

Author:

Mrs. Estzerhaus

I was one of those wild BIC Mormon teenagers who was good at rationalizing. I could lie like a rug until I got caught. After High School I went to Ricks and was straight TBM. I wanted to see what it would be like to really "live the gospel". I read the scriptures. It was all going smoothly until I came to the "Doctrine and Covenants". This was like a diary of a crazy man. The plaster began to crack, but not quite enough. I rationalized and tried to forget what I'd read. I'm sorry I didn't leave then, but I never knew anyone who had left! So, I stayed, tried to pick and choose for years. Wasn't really happy living that way, but it took time for the puzzle to fit together.

I'm sure you were just trying to fit the pieces together too. We all have our own way of doing it. You have nothing to apologize for! Mormons try to shame you however they can. They tell me that I never really had a "testimony". Whatever that's suppose to mean! It's all bullshit anyway.

 

Subject:

The fact that GAs teach 'no middle ground' indicates that they think the sheeple are STUPID!

Date:

Nov 20 18:34

Author:

NoToJoe

How could you know about all the problems and still hold to the 'all or nothing' the 'black or white' line of reasoning?

The GAs know about all the 'black'......

This position only works if the followers are blinded, and don't see the black. GAs own all the 'white' and anyone who suggests there is 'black' is himself EVIL. The only evil that exists are the people who acknowledge 'black' within the church.

Honest people who follow the prophet and his 'black or white' logic have no choice but to leave the church.

 

Subject:

You're right, NoToJoe

Date:

Nov 21 00:43

Author:

KimberlyAnn

Members who believe what Hinckley taught in his April 2003 conference address, who later discover the truth about church history and decide to remain active members are intellectually dishonest.

If they actively recruit new members in the cult after learning the truth, then they are as much liars as Hinckley and Joe Smith and the other false prophets of Mormonism.

KA

 

Subject:

You are so exactly right! This ...

Date:

Nov 21 02:30

Author:

Illusions

part is exactly like a conversation I had recently with my two TBM brothers.
KimberlyAnn wrote:
> I still am unable to comprehend their allegiance to the Mormon church, and their delusion that they can pick and choose what to believe when it comes to doctrine.

> According to Mormonism, their prophet is as infallible as Vatican II claims the Pope to be - that means, when declaring doctrine, managing the affairs of the church, and knowing the way of salvation, HE CANNOT MAKE A MISTAKE! God will not allow it! Therefore, a Mormon can do nothing but accept declared doctrine and the way the Prophet runs the church unquestioningly and obey accordingly.

> Either Gordon B. Hinckley and every previous prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are one hundred per cent correct concerning church affairs and doctrine, or they are false prophets. There is no other option. And unless the current prophet declares a past prophet's doctrine incorrect, or gets "new" revelation because God changed his mind yet again, then all he said STILL STANDS and that cannot be ignored.

My brothers told me that I could supposedly pick and choose what I wanted and should believe. Specifically we were talking about my 2 earrings at the time. One brother said something like, "you apparently are not far enough along in your religious progression to be able to pick and choose. You need to get to the point where you can take what works for you and leave the rest." I was so pissed and insulted that I started crying. I was the one that wasn't far enough along in my religious progression???? Arghh. "I can pick and choose - the point is that the Mormon Church flat-out does not allow its members to do that and still be members in good standing." I told him.... it degenerated from there.

I still wonder, WTF??? How is it that Mormons can think that picking and choosing is ok. The very doctrines of the church say that it isn't. You're right, KA it's an all or nothing proposition.

 

Subject:

What your brother said is so similar to what someone told me once.

Date:

Nov 21 03:37

Author:

Evelyn

A TBM friend once said to me, in an exasperated tone, "Your problem, Evelyn, is that you expect people's behavior to match their professed beliefs!"

Silly me.

He said this after I questioned why he continues to secretly engage in certain activities while publicly declaring that the same things are sinful. Seems to me one ought to either stop doing the things, or bring the behavior out into the open and/or declare that it is nothing to be ashamed of. How can a person feel peaceful if their inside doesn't match their outside? Living a lie is more stressful than being honest.

Apparently he doesn't agree with me. Apparently I am silly to expect that such a non-conflicted state is possible.

 

Subject:

re: Mormonism IS nothing!

Date:

Nov 21 08:36

Author:

adamisfree2006 (formerly on_my_way_out_2)

enjoyed your post KA. When I was TBM I was the golden child. Very active, tithe payer who held all of the "high" callings at the ward level. Served in several bishoprics attended PEC for 15+ years. During the same time period my parents would go to the store on Sunday, eat out at restaurants with fellow ward members on Sunday. Some how all of the "breaking the Sabbath" was no problem for them yet I viewed it then as wrong. Oddly, when I leave the church my parents question my "real" testimony. Now my Dad is on the HC (high council) and still eats out on Sundays and participates in Bowling tournaments on Sundays.

 

Subject:

The difficulty with Mormonism is that some things are commandments

Date:

Nov 21 10:22

Author:

SusieQ#1

and must be lived to get a temple recommend, for instance, or get into a church school, and others are suggestions on how to live your life usually from a prophet or leader that nobody pays much attention to unless they become part of the BYU honor code, or can be enforced.

If it can't be enforced, it is a suggestion, the prophet is "speaking as a man" and giving counsel that in no way has anything to do with your "worthiness." Man cannot be commanded in all things, and all that!

Some TBM's are fanatics and stay up nights praying to know ways to make living Mormonism more and more and more restrictive.

Some do the minimum and that is sufficient.

Predominately, the older generations that are involved in leadership are generally the cultural Mormons that are often more lenient with themselves and more stringent with the younger members.

 

Subject:

They're like the Pharisees

Date:

Nov 21 12:44

Author:

KimberlyAnn

Whomever obeys the most commandments is the most righteous. All their little rules are designed to separate Mormons into a righteousness caste system - and it does a great job of making a bunch of holier-than-thou assholes out of what otherwise would be lovely people.

KA

 

Subject:

Re: They're like the Pharisees - the exceptions are quite interesting.

Date:

Nov 21 14:34

Author:

SusieQ#1

The famous Mormons who work on Sundays -- Steve Young as a player and broadcaster, for instance.

The rules apply to everyone except when what they are doing is more important than the rules! Then they are suggestions! A prophet speaking as a man. Take it or leave it.
As long as tithing or contributions come in, that takes care of a lot of the smaller stuff!
Be seen going to the temple, that helps a lot too.

 

Subject:

Mormonism says man was made for the Sabbath; Christ says the Sabbath was made for man

Date:

Nov 22 21:06

Author:

anonymon

That reminds me...December 3, Handel's Messiah is going to be playing in Baltimore. I was excited (I actually like the Overture best of all, but I am odd like that)...until we found out it was on Sunday. Then my TBM wife decided we couldn't go because we'd have to have a babysitter on Sunday?!?! So Handel's Messiah in December is not honoring the Sabbath; it is more important to make sure nobody else is watching our kids than to go to that performance.

What Would Jesus Do? The Jesus the Mormons tell me about would stay at home and do nothing but read scriptures; however, the Jesus I read about in the Bible would do more than pay, pray, and obey. He was caught picking grain from the fields (e.g., working) on the Sabbath, and healing on the Sabbath, but told them to live a higher law. In fact, his response was that man was not made for the Sabbath, but rather, the Sabbath was made for man. Mormonism, despite all of their feel-good sugar coating, has never been able to accept that there may be a higher law... (unless you are a Mormon celebrity), and that something other than their prescribed form of worship may be what certain men are best suited for doing to honor the Sabbath.

 

Subject:

"All who turn from what they receive here today will be in MY POWER!" -- SATAN

Date:

Nov 21 13:26

Author:

Agree

This statement (paraphrased from the LDS Temple Ceremony) draws the line absolutely.

If you truly believe in the Temple rites (and you must!), then EVERY person, without exception, who deviates from those rites must be in Satan's power!

And you MUST believe this is so, otherwise you are ALSO deviating from the rites and therefore in Satan's power too!

It makes no difference how "good" these people may appear to be; how they "act"; what they actually "do" in life -- all this means nothing if they have turned against the rites. They are in SATAN'S POWER and so are YOU if you think otherwise.

All this is Black or white. It is God or Satan! You have no choice.

(Or, perhaps, you're living in a Cult.)

 

Subject:

Re: "All who turn from what they receive here today will be in MY POWER!" -- SATAN

Date:

Nov 21 14:38

Author:

SusieQ#1

The power of Satan is alive and well in much of the cult of Christianity also. It is not just a Mormon notion. IT is a borrowed notion from the cult of Christianity.
The Evangelicals in particular fight the war with Satan on a daily basis. Just listen to them on TV!

 

Subject:

That is EXACTLY how I believed

Date:

Nov 21 14:39

Author:

cl2

It is either true or it is not--I couldn't pick and choose and that is how I lived. I thought that anything the prophet said was straight from God and I believed they talked to God. Well, they are so wrong on the gay issue, let alone so many other things, that is when I KNEW they didn't talk to God. They are clueless.

 

Subject:

Mormonism is a very polarizing religion

Date:

Nov 21 14:59

Author:

T-bone

I've seen it break up families. I've seen it separate parents from their children. I've seen people lose friends over it. There are people who will not let their children play with non-Mormon children. The attitude is that either you believe 100% or you're in the clutches of the devil.

There is no such thing as questioning authority. Total mental laziness is encouraged. Don't ask questions. Don't think. Put that off until later. We all know what would happen if a member in tithing settlement decided to tell the bishop, "Put your questions about my finances on the shelf for a while." No temple recommend. You can't see your daughter's wedding. God demands absolute obedience, nothing less. That's what our bishop told us about tithing. The same with other areas of our lives. Pornography, caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes.

Then Mormons have the gall to accuse us of being black and white thinkers. LOL.

 

Subject:

KimberlyAnn, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland seems to be in agreement with you...

Date:

Nov 21 15:45

Author:

O-TownDrone

This is excerpted from the June 1985 New Era magazine:

Holland:

To hear someone so remarkable say something so tremendously bold, so overwhelming in its implications, that everything in the Church—everything—rises or falls on the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and, by implication, the Prophet Joseph Smith’s account of how it came forth, can be a little breathtaking. It sounds like a “sudden death” proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward.

"Not everything in life is so black and white, but it seems the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and its keystone role in our belief is exactly that. Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those." Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” New Era, June 1995, 64

Excerpted from a Church Educational System Religious Educators’ Symposium address given at Brigham Young University on August 9, 1994.

 

Subject:

Furthermore, you can't just BELIEVE it's true, you must KNOW it's true...

Date:

Nov 22 21:45

Author:

In or Out

Everything is taken to the extreme!

... You owe all you posses to the church.

... Obedience is your only option.

... It's the only true church.

... You must never say "no" to the authorities over you.



 

Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church  www.exmormon.org

Listing of additional short Topics  |  Main Page