Subject:

Comments from this topic

“It seems that the people who take Mormonism the most seriously when they think it's the truth, also take it the most seriously when they find out about the lies.”

“Mormonism was the breath I breathed. It was my soul and defined who I was. It dictated who my friends were and it ultimately defined whom I would eventually marry. It was my social and cultural foundation.”

Subject:		I don't think people like me are supposed to leave the church...
Date:	Feb 20, 2007
Author:	Tal Bachman

I feel like guys like me aren't really supposed to leave the church.

I never had complaints about church doctrines, like a lot of the people on here. I never minded wearing garments, never minded keeping the Word of Wisdom, enjoyed reading church books, loved my callings, had a great time with FHE, family scriptures, I was never naturally rebellious - I always just wanted to be a hero, and I believed that within Mormonism, I could be...I feel like I was as completely locked in psychologically and emotionally as it is possible to be, or at least, as it is possible for *me* to be. I was definitely on the Ezra Taft Benson wing. I loved the guy - seeing him talk in person at the fall 1987 conference was one of the highlights of my life up to that point.

(True, I wasn't partial to Utah. But, to me, Utah wasn't "the gospel"...).

Now I'm out. People who I often got after for slacking (not doing their home teaching, refusing callings, etc.), are still in, and in some cases, have taken occasion to claim all sorts of untrue things about my activity in, and devotion to, the church. I've even now met people personally - serving in important callings! - who observe what they call the "hundred mile" rule, which is that once they get beyond 100 miles from Utah, they do whatever they want - drink, strip bars, whatever. But they keep up the pretence at home because of their wives and kids!

I hated Sunstone, most of the time I hated Dialogue, I could never understand all the "I want to stay Mormon, even though Mormonism is RACIST AND SEXIST!" types...All I ever wanted to do was wave the Mormon flag. The truth is that I think I never did meet anyone who was more fanatically devout than I was...and yet, I'm out.

I'm out, but I still in many ways have more in common, lifestyle-wise, with devout Mormons. My wife and I have eight children, in an area where no one has more than two; I'm not a partier; politically and economically I'm on the libertarian side of things; I hope there is some kind of divine something running the universe; I'm not a big curser; etc.

And I just realized, I don't even know where I'm going with this post...

Subject:	You have a point.
Date:	Feb 20 15:16
Author:	Grape Nephi aka William

I fit into the category like you. Did all the stuff right. Couldn't stand the slackers or the weird ones. I did my home teaching, paid my tithing, wore my G's (although I never really liked them all that much, especially in the one piece days), etc etc.

Glad I'm out though.

Subject:	It seems to me that
Date:	Feb 20 15:19
Author:	cl2

a lot of the exmormons are the ones who bought it 100% and lived it to the best of their ability, always doing everything that was required and not slacking.

My mother just told me recently that "I" was the ONE they never thought would go inactive--that I was the most devout, most religious, spiritual of all her kids--that she and my dad are both still SHOCKED. I told her in no uncertain terms I wasn't going back.

Like I said--I did read Sunstone and Dialog--they only helped me question. A friend of ours gave them to us after he read them. They ALLOWED me to question. Once I KNEW, though, like I said, I could never go back.

Subject:	IOW you're in no man's land. I can relate to that. (Brit cuss)
Date:	Feb 20 15:21
Author:	Nightingale

Also, what the heck happened then eh? How did the light penetrate? That is the question I'm so interested in. For me, in fundy religion even pre-moism, it was being at work amongst others of different faiths and no faith, realizing they would never convert to "one true" anything and that was okay and even made sense to me. I agree with what others have said about removing oneself from the source as moving out or away from it and into the wider world gives you a wider perspective and that is always a good thing.

The more hardline some denoms and leaders are about the little box we're all supposed to cram into the more obvious it gets that it just ain't happenin'. And yeah, that makes you ask questions. For the more fundy among us progress can be quite slow. Kind of like a McCue essay that charts the progress from absolutism to, 127 pages later, dawning realization that hey, "non-Mormons can be happy too", when really, it's a duh kind of thing.

I can definitely relate to the no-man's land of not fitting into one single religious denom but being somewhat that way inclined so not jumping right into a foreign lifestyle either. Kind of like being neutered maybe? :/

I do find that cussing comes in handy though and feels curiously satisfying. I stick to the Brit words though and that appeases my hopelessly fundyized conscience. :)

Bloody church. hehe

Subject:	Yes, you seem to be an odd case - to what do you attribute your awakening?
Date:	Feb 20 15:25
Author:	Lucyfer

So, why did you leave? You "liked" the whole Mormon thing and my guess is that you would have been considered a form of royalty in the church. As things in Mormon-dumb go, you had it pretty good.

I am not trying to be smug. I am just curious about how you were able to really see things for what they were. Most people in your position would have found a way to deny the truth and stay connected to TSCC. Somehow, these people find more positives in staying than in leaving - even if they are confronted with the fact that it is all a fraud. Somehow they are able to just look the other way and blithely go on being Mormon.

What was different about you, do you think?

Subject:	Same here
Date:	Feb 20 15:28
Author:	Fubeca

I was the one accepting every calling unquestioningly and horrified when siblings would talk about the church in less than flattering terms. There's a whole spectrum of types of exmos...those who believed, those who didn't.

I was faithful even as a teen. I read church books. I obeyed the mission rules. I think in some ways we are the ones who have the hardest time recovering because we let the church monopolize so much more of our lives growing up. I made very significant life decisions based upon whether or not the church was true... and I regret it.

My life HAS changed a lot. But like you, I'm still not a big curser, drinker or social deviant.

Funny though, as much as I was devoted to the church, I haven't once felt a twinge of longing for it since I left. I don't look at it and think I wish it had been true. When I pass a church building I only feel gratitude that I'm on the outside.

Subject:	Hi
Date:	Feb 20 15:36
Author:	Tal Bachman

Fubeca, I know exactly what you mean - despite everything, for some weird reason, I've never longed to be "back in" ever, and I have the same reaction every time I pass a church: "I'm glad I found out".

Lucyfer, I just don't know how to answer your question...I was just looking to answer outstanding questions, and then each attempt led to the discovery of even greater problems, and on it went, until almost by accident, I saw that the whole thing could not possibly be what it claimed; and once that happened, it was all over, forever. I couldn't "unsee" what I'd just seen...

Yeah Nightingale, I am in a no-man's-land; and I am starting to think that I will be there forever. Where do you go after you were in some freakish cult or quasi-cult? You know? What do you do? Who do hang with? You don't really have a common frame of reference with normal humans. They were enjoying life, building their careers, etc., while you were re-reading "Answers to Gospel Questions" for the fourth time, marveling at how Joseph Fielding Smith "knew so much" about cavemen...

Subject:	I can really relate to this....
Date:	Feb 20 15:44
Author:	Swedeboy

I never wanted Mormonism to be anything other than what it claimed. Just like you, I would discover something contrary to what I had been taught, and that would then lead to some further discovery down the line. Despite the pain this caused me internally due to knowing the realities behind the history and doctrines of Mormonism, I still continued to defend and try to maintain a testimony.

I remember turning to Danishgirl once I had put all of the pieces together and exclaiming in tears,"Why did they lie to us?" I was never looking for a way out, I only wanted to be a better, stronger Mormon with a testimony to match.

Now we are all out, living in the land of in-between.

Subject:	Who you gonna call? Maybe McCue. And how about Blair from exmo conference?
Date:	Feb 20 22:01
Author:	Nightingale

Tal: I don't know really either.

To start, I think you have to throw out (not up!), catch up and buck up (and then live it up, lol).

I don't really like no-man's-land. It's vaguely uncomfortable most of the time and acutely uncomfortable on occasion.

For me, it has taken the form of not wanting to be with a religious guy but not being ready for an atheist. So that limits the options. And yeah, that has a huge effect on one's life.

As well as other stuff.

Throw out - the programming (takes analysis and effort).

Catch up - the life lived as a non-mo (or non-whatever) (you know, all that adolescent and young adult stuff as well as learning as much as you can about "normal" people and life in the real world and how to alter your worldview to a more cosmopolitan outlook).

Live it up - have fun, enjoy, try not to be too intense about "belief" (or lack thereof), find new friends based on non-religious interests, etc.

I find that reading Bob McCue's analysis and process that he's written extensively about is vicariously beneficial to me. And I've noticed that people really benefitted from Blair Watson's presentation at exmo conference (self esteem, etc). (https://www.exmormonfoundation.org)

This is maybe a place to start.

But it's easy to see why hanging with exmo buddies can be very important eh? It gets tiring having to explain everything all the time...they get it.

Subject:	Perhaps this is why we're out...
Date:	Feb 20 15:47
Author:	Fubeca

Lucyfer and Tal, I'm not exactly sure why I made it out in spite of my unwavering belief but I think there's a fine line of belief that I apparently never crossed.

What I mean is, I remember hearing a story of Vaughn J Featherstone being asked if Jesus Christ came back to earth
and announced that the LDS church wasn't true would he still believe. His answer was "yes!" Even as a TBM I thought that was strange. I don't know if the story is true or not but the concept was related in a lesson at church and so that behavior/attitude is common.

I remember another incidence in testimony meeting hearing a sister (whom I admired) say, "I'm at the point in my testimony that there's nothing that could ever cause me to not believe the church is true." Even as a TBM I thought that was likewise strange. I could have at least hypothetically come up with ways that would cause me to disbelieve in the church.

I believed in the LDS church so strongly based on the information and experiences that I'd had. If asked that one important question..."If it weren't true, would you want to know it?" I would have answered yes even then.

There are many people as faithful as we were who would and do answer "NO!" They don't want to know.

That's the only thing I can see that separates me from my TBM siblings ... it mattered to me if it was true and I think there was always a standard in my mind of how much evidence there had to be. As soon as I discovered that the LDS church failed that standard miserably, I was out.

Subject:	Re: Perhaps this is why we're out...
Date:	Feb 20 16:09
Author:	laugh a lot

Fubeca's comments that it mattered to her if the church is true and that is the difference between her and her siblings, is exactly right! That is exactly why I'm where I am today. My husband can't understand why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's because it matters to me!

Thanks Fubeca

Subject:	My name
Date:	Feb 20 16:39
Author:	Fubeca

In spite of my screen name sounding feminine, I'm a guy. The name is from my mission days...it's one of those missionary made-up words that sounds Portuguese but it really isn't. It means..."dork, goof, screw-up...etc." We used to call each other "Fubeca" as friendly teasing. I just always liked the sound of it....

Subject:	"Truth is God"
Date:	Feb 20 18:05
Author:	RebeccaJ

"I would say with those who say God is Love, God is Love. But deep down in me I used to say that though God may be Love, God is Truth, above all. If it is possible for the human tongue to give the fullest description of God, I have come to the conclusion that, for myself, God is Truth.

But two years ago I went a step further and said that Truth is God. You will see the fine distinction between the two statement, viz., that God is Truth and Truth is God. And I came to the conclusion after a continuous and relentless search after Truth which began nearly fifty years ago.

I found that the nearest approach to Truth was through love....I never found a double meaning in connection with truth and not even atheists had demurred to the necessity or power of truth."

-Mahatma Gandhi

Subject:	Considering how many of you were so eager to serve God...
Date:	Feb 20 15:50
An Exmo Gal

How many of you still believe that there is a God? Have you moved on to other religions? Are you still searching?
I personally have a very hard time trusting anyone when it comes to religion and choose not to attend any church.
Your thoughts...

Subject:	I'm surprised you left.
Date:	Feb 20 15:51
Author:	Makurosu

For me, Mormonism was caustic to my personality. I was active in the Church all my life and did everything I was taught to do, but life in that religion was a living hell for me. I suppose it was the fact that Mormonism made me so unhappy and the doctrine seemed so vague and impossible to pin down that ultimately resulted in me studying my way out.

If Mormonism had really appealed to me, I might never have left. So, it speaks well of you that you did.

Subject:	Re: I don't think people like me are supposed to leave the church...
Date:	Feb 20 16:00
Author:	Vee

Maybe it doesn't matter where you were going with this post because it still managed to strike a responsive chord. Same here. I have a lot in common with members still, although since leaving I'll confess to crossing the WoW line, first with iced tea and later with the occasional drink with dinner when out. That's it, but I suppose it's enough to offend real TBMs. I've never been drunk or high and really have no desire to be. I'm happy with my family and not a partier in any way, shape or form. My politics are more to the center (with a dash of libertarianism on a few issues); I would like to believe in God - I don't, but I want to, if that makes any sense; and I'm not a big curser either.

Since I left, I've also found out that there are many, many people who practice a cafeteria style of Mormonism, without calling it that. I was so naive in my attempts to be conscientious. Those people are still in, I think, maybe because they can bend without breaking? Idealists have a harder time of it.

I don't really know what I'm saying either. Believe me, it's not that I wanted to stay in once my eyes were fully opened. It was a matter of integrity to leave. But sometimes I feel like I'm even now more Mormon than some Mormons. Does that make any sense to anyone? Probably not. It sounds a little pompous and judgmental and I really didn't mean it that way. Better stop waffling while I'm behind...

Subject:	Re: I don't think people like me are supposed to leave the church...
Date:	Feb 20 16:36
Author:	Brigantia

I understand what you are getting at Tal. Out here in the mission field, being a member of a family of 10 in an environment which associates large families with gypsies or Irish Catholics, our devotion to the church was absolute and a wonderful refuge from the depravity that was perceived in our own back yard.

Rather like a Scotsman becoming more Scottish the further from home he gets, mormons in England yearn for the pilgrimage to their true home in Zion. With great joy we worked harder with our callings as we were the 'flag bearers' out here. Oh how I longed for the comfort of Utah, to see just once before I die the temple in SLC and bask in the spirit which would surely embrace me in that holy place. Somehow the Preston (sorry Chorley) temple seemed lacking compared to the Big One.

Absolute garbage!

I think I have some years left to re-programme my brain, and my family have always been my life. Thankfully I am still here, gadding about Europe and the Greek islands visiting and seeing in a completely new light hundreds of wonderful archeological sites. I stand all amazed!

Isn't life wonderful!?

:-)))))

Subject:	Me too. I don't think we're as uncommon as you may think ...
Date:	Feb 20 16:27
Author:	Mark (was "Still Active")

what with all the information that's so easily available at one's fingertips nowadays. It all comes down to, as Fubeca says, how much one cares about truth and whether one is willing to look at evidence contrary to what one believes. For me, that was never an issue, because I thought I had the truth so nothing could possibly destroy it. Anything which appeared contrary, by definition, had to simply be something "we didn't fully understand" or for which there was some other way of looking at it that would be consistent with "the truth" if one looked hard enough.

I had no fear of looking at other information or even what was considered anti-Mormon, but I typically didn't "waste my time" with such material because after all it was "just a pack of lies". When I came upon a discussion board a few years ago of people who were sharply critical of the Church but seemed knowledgable and clear-thinking (lds-mormon.com) I started to interact with them out of a feeling of both superiority and curiosity. Superiority in thinking I could abuse them of their "false notions", and curiosity in why such knowledgable people were so "ignorant" of the truth. Well, one thing led to another and I came to realize that it was I who was ignorant. Even then it took awhile to come fully around to realize that the Church could not be what it claimed.

Lifestyle-wise I haven't changed that much since leaving. Rarely drink, not much with swearing, I'll have a latte or cappuccino once in awhile but not that often, still have friends who are Mormon and like them, have a large extended family who are TBMs and like them. Can't say that I've longed to be back in, but I do miss some of the associations. It was so a part of me for so many years.

Subject:	Tal, your mind-wanderings sound like me...
Date:	Feb 20 16:31
Author:	Crystal Song

I was the truest of true believers. I have every award I could have earned as a young woman. I stood in the front lines of any apologist debate. I think I was probably one of those insane people who would have died for their faith. It is those of us who believe the strongest who are the most bruised when we find out the truth.

One evening, as stake genealogy librarian, I began to read the old documents, journals, and "Daughters of the Utah Pioneers" magazines in the library to pass the time when I wasn't working on my own family history. Needless to say, I found a few bits of foul history I hadn't been taught in Seminary and Institute.

Those small bits of history were no problem for me...the faithful analyzer...I would just take the problems and research them. (Insert faith-promoting music here). Obviously, the truth would stand on its own and I would find answers.

Unfortunately, the opposite happened. (Or maybe the real truth surfaced.) My research on two problems led me to four, and four to sixteen, until I could no longer hide myself from the problems.

But no one would listen. No one wanted to hear, especially not my husband. Because no one had answers, and all I did was make them question too. So I was alone, for many years...with all of the anguish of my failing beliefs locked inside.

Then I finally broke out. I finally started to find excuses to stay home from church, to stop being Molly in everything, and after many years...to find my voice.

Unfortunately, this story does not have a completely happy ending. My grown children struggle to understand why Mom has "changed," and my now ex-husband hates me for shaking his faith. He firmly shoved his fingers in his ears and left me.

I still live the Mormon lifestyle...just without the Church. Why? Because it has become who I am. To live otherwise would be a betrayal of me now, not a rejection of the Church.

If there's a place called Heaven, I hope it has a place for people who are more concerned about courage and truth than about appearances.

Subject:	You don't sound so out of the ordinary
Date:	Feb 20 16:59
Author:	Asimov

It seems that the people who take Mormonism the most seriously when they think it's the truth also take it the most seriously when they find out about the lies. It's the social Mormons who are less likely to feel motivated to investigate their own religion, or who can bring such an investigation to a conclusion that's basically "The Church is true; its teachings are not."

Subject:	Did the Church Leave You?
Date:	Feb 20 17:10
Author:	Paradise

Tal, have you ever considered the possibility that the Mormon Church left you?

Subject:	Re: Did the Church Leave You?
Date:	Feb 20 18:28
Author:	Silver Girl

I'm finding myself nodding at so many things as I read this thread, totally relating. I think "Did the Church Leave You?" seems true in Tal's case and I would say that describes how I felt too near the end. As Swedeboy put it so well:

"I was never looking for a way out, I only wanted to be a better, stronger Mormon with a testimony to match."

But the more you pay attention to the church and it's teachings and dealings, both present and past, the harder it is to maintain a "testimony" of truth and goodness along with a "testimony" of the church, because you realize they are not one and the same like previously believed.

It's sad to hear about people who spread rumors about why people left. It just goes to show how protecting "the church" takes precedence over actual concern for fellow humans. Noticing that within myself, and being disgusted with myself for having been that way, was one of the first things that got me to thinking about what type of fruit the church really is bearing.

SG

Subject:	Re: Did the Church Leave You? I totally relate!
Date:	Feb 20 22:15
Author:	the church left us too

I can't believe how much of this thread I relate to. I completely relate to Tal's experience (as I usually do - he got me through some tough times, just reading his posts), and I relate to my church leaving me. That is what allowed me to begin to question - I had to understand what the heck was going on. Then when my Bishop actually admitted his job was to protect the church in a private meeting - that is when I threw up my hands and we left shortly after that. THE CHURCH LEFT US.

Subject:	Don't you know you just didn't want to believe!
Date:	Feb 20 17:10
Author:	Wandering

In a thread on another board about the Dehlin/Bushman interviews the interviewer said that those who want to believe, do, and those who don't ,don't. I consider that a huge insult and cop-out to write off all of us who can't accept all the lies and half truths as merely people who didn't want to believe, but it helps them feel good about knowing how many problems there are and still being willing to go along with it. I and so many other good faithful Mormons like Tal was just thought searching for truth was what this was all about and nobody told us to only search so far. We only wanted to know what was true.

Subject:	Me too.
Date:	Feb 20 17:18
Author:	Evelyn

I agree that a lot of exmos seem to be the ones who tried the hardest to do everything right, and then one day they snapped. I'm one of those.

I have a theory about why we "good ones" leave and the "slackers" stay for life.

The slackers can still rationalize that IF they did live correctly, they would KNOW the church was true. Their excuse for not going the extra mile: they're "only human", they're "not perfect". They just coast along, unwilling to put forth the effort to really seriously follow their religion.

We, on the other hand, WERE anal about rule following. We did everything to the best of our ability. We went above and beyond the call of duty. All the while we waited for a burning, rock solid testimony to "grow from our tiny mustard seed of faith". Any glimmer of hope would have satisfied us. Problem was, nothing happened. No rewards came. We never gained any fuller understanding, we never got to a point of "knowing" the church was true. We never received that undeniable witness. We never felt "peaceful", only more and more frenzied and confused. So we tried harder and harder until there was nothing left undone that we could think of, no stone unturned, no prayer unsaid, no sin un-confessed, not an ounce of selfishness or pride left in us. STILL, no answers came, no promises were fulfilled. We only felt more guilty, more "unworthy", because our efforts didn't seem to be working as they should.

The only reward we got for our faith and personal sacrifice: we got stuck with every crap job that no one else would show up for.

This, eventually, tends to make one put two and two together. I remember thinking, if I am doing EVERYTHING I am supposed to, but STILL don't feel any better about the church...maybe there is something wrong with the church and NOT with me?? An earthshaking thought if ever there was one.

Slackers never work hard enough to get to this doubting point. They just assume the church is true without question.

We, on the other hand, weren't satisfied to be slackers. Strangely, the harder we ran, the worse our quality of life became, the more we realized there is no glorious destination for the righteous, only a never ending treadmill of pay, pray and obey.

So, when the slackers tell us exmos "I know if you only tried harder, prayed harder, had more faith...youd realize the church IS true..." they are only telling us what they believe about themselves, what they tell themselves when THEY have doubts. It doesn't occur to them that we already HAVE done what they recommend, we've already been there and back again, and we are trying to tell them that there ISN'T any pot of gold at the end of the mormon rainbow.

I find that the best way to irritate a TBM is to insist that they keep to their own standards. Insist that they follow their own rules. Get upset when they do something you know their religion preaches against. They'll protest, "But I'm not perfect! I can only do my best and leave the rest up to God!" Counter with church literature teaching "be ye therefore perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect", and "either all of it is true or none of it is", etc... Nitpick them to death. There's no end to the fun you could have playing Mo-police! They'll thank you at first, but eventually, you'll drive them absolutely nuts. Claim innocence. Hey baby, these aren't my rules, they're your church's rules! I'm just trying to help you STICK TO YOUR OWN (impossible) STANDARDS. You don't want to give the wrong impression to non-believers, do you?

Subject:	Just an observation, the most serious leave.
Date:	Feb 20 17:20
Author:	Turnip

Tal, and so many others on this board took the Church really seriously and from what y'all have written really tried to learn all you could about your faith, not just drift along or become Jack Mormons or Sunstoners. It seems like a lot of you had to leave because you cared so much about truth and integrity and doing what is right, not the opposite. It was the lies, coverups, blind obedience and ineptness of leadership that led you out, not "being offended" or for some like Tal, problems with the lifestyle.
From what I see, the best Mormons often end up at RFM. The people here are amazing.

Subject:	Re: I don't think people like me are supposed to leave the church...
Date:	Feb 20 18:03
Author:	I heart Rachel McAdams

As a convert, I always tried to to what's best in my heart/conscience. In other words, I was one of those "spirit of the law" people. I hear about how brainwashed people are in the cult. But what really gets overlooked is heartwashing. That's what made me question it a couple of years ago.

Basically, like most exmos, I don't do any "heavy" sinning. I've never been the kind to do hard partying like smoking or drinking. I've naturally been straight edge my whole life with the exception of caffeine and R rated movie although I drank my 1st glass of wine last weekend but I won't drink it that much because I'm not crazy about it taste wise since I'm more into sugary drinks that I can gulp and not sip.

Plus, while I'm more liberal regarding what the Morg considers fornication/porn like cuddling/snuggling or a not too tastless nude scene, I choose not to have sex until my future signifcant other and I decide it's time to financially support each other.

Subject:	Is it ok for me to come out of my retirement from RFM and post a comment?....
Date:	Feb 20 19:40
Author:	Cr@ig P@xton

I know this isn’t a post of one ups manship ...where the last poster in the thread gets to claim to be the Most Uber Mormo Nazi TBM prior to leaving the church BUT...

Mormonism was the breath I breathed. It was my soul and defined who I was. It dictated who my friends were and it ultimately defined whom I would eventually marry. It was my social and cultural foundation.

But much like the Dutch Boy with fingers in the dike. I had been plugging the many conflicts in my faith in Mormonism since my mission and the dam finally broke. I just couldn't hold it all together in my head any longer.

Mormonism is amazing to me in that regard...its ability to get its "knowledgeable" members to maintain conflicting bits of information in their head while still being able to maintain faith in the church. God bless ‘em I say ...I just couldn't lie to myself like they can. I no longer had the ability to accept all the many conflicting so-called truths found in Mormonism. I couldn’t maintain the cognitive dissonance.

Gordon Hinkley and many others have said that the church is either the truth or its a fraud...its either what it claims to be or it isn't. The fact that the church needs to lie and cover-up and whitewash and doctor and change its history and foundational stories finally collapsed what faith I still had remaining. I asked myself.... Does Jesus need to lie? (This was when I still had a hope that Jesus was who he claimed to be) I answered that by saying NO, He wouldn't need to lie...which begs the question...then why would HIS church need to lie?

But most TBM's won't expose themselves to the truth.....the truth is just too painful. My Ultra Mormo-Nazi TBM wife whom I love to death...won't listen to anything I have to say on the subject. I have broken her heart...but I couldn't live a lie any longer. I can't live a lie for anyone.

TBM’s won't listen to reason....they have been so conditioned by the MORG that they can't hear the truth. Even when confronted with factual documented proof...TBM's discard it as anti-Mormon falsehoods. How do I know this? Because that description of TBM reactions used to be me....I rejected conflicting information for years...on the basis that it was all just lies promoted by enemies of the church.

I had my “ah hah” moment after I was excommunicated and had to confront my faith. I had to know if the church was all it claimed to be. When I finally decided that I had to know the truth no matter what the outcome...When I finally allowed myself to search for the truth even at the cost of my faith...it was over. The truth won out. I didn't like the truth...but I couldn't deny it either.

I have no agenda against the church...you won't find me at conference holding up signs...they didn't work on me when I was a TBM and they won't work on real TBM's now JMO.

I absolutely loved the church. I loved the culture, I loved the people, I loved and looked up to the GA’s as men to base my life on, I loved the comfort of knowing that I had the TRUTH. I could ethnocentrically look at my fellow man and feel sadness and compassion for their lack of belief in accepting Mormonism’s Truth. I took comfort in knowing that I was not just another human walking on the face of the earth...I was a Child of God... a God in embryo. Yeah, I bought the “Snake Oil” and all its promises of families being together forever.... eternal marriage.... Godhood...eternal progress...That’s what makes it hurt so much even today.... I feel lied to and deceived by the very people I had placed such total confidence in. They lied to me and continue to lie to promote their agenda.

Hope it was ok for me to make a post...ok I'll slip back into my cave...

Subject:	P@x the Poet. Wow. You choked me up. (little cuss)
Date:	Feb 20 21:51
Author:	Nightingale

P@x:
>Mormonism was the breath I breathed. It was my soul and defined who I was. It dictated who my friends were and it ultimately defined whom I would eventually marry. It was my social and cultural foundation.

That is one of the most poetic expressions ever seen that explains the exmo angst. This is the part that mo critics don't get. This is why you can't just walk away, leave it alone, get over it (even as a convert sometimes).

I was already very religious when I got with the mishies and "converted" to Mormonism. Around and in Mormonism I had some of the most spiritual experiences of my life. I witnessed a miracle, experienced a miracle, heard the voice, communed with the Holy Ghost.

Or so I deeply believed.

But reality didn't match the promise and inside I found only the glimpses of disturbing issues I didn't know about and couldn't pinpoint, the instructions to indefinitely shelve all questions, the grinding repetition and work work work, the lack of fulfillment and ever-increasing sense of blackness and depression, all of which was my fault apparently.

Believing in miracles though and feeling the ghost, what are you gonna do?

Mormonism wasn't my breath (not being BIC I guess) nor my culture or heritage. But pre-mo my own brand of "spirituality" was my lens, my focus, my worldview, my plan, my friends, my choices, my decisions, my life, my soul, my breath.

Damn.

After the ghost.

Then what? :/

Subject:	What did it for me....
Date:	Feb 20 19:59
Author:	integritymatters2me

I used to always say (no offense intended here) that I could never be apart of a religion that had a dark history, like Catholicism. And then after years of super TBM living (BIC, Temple married, etc.) I learned that Mormonism has a *very* dark history. And then when I finally decided to 'google' "Lds women and depression" and came across an article on exmormon.org written by a mormon psychologist, I realized that my years of battling severe depression had very little to do with me, but much more to do with my mormon programming. I kept thinking if I lived the WoW better (I was Vegan at one point), prayed more, read scriptures more, etc. that I would be freed of all this "sin and guilt" and feel Christ's love for me. Didn't ever happen. The more I payed, prayed and obeyed, the worse the depression got.

To answer the question of where I'm at now. After hanging out in Agnosticism for a couple months last summer and researching a lot about other religions and spiritual paths and studying the history of Christianity, I have come to embrace progressive Christianity. I attend an Assemblies of God non-denom church that I love. I love the freedom of the worship style. I love how people are allowed to just be themselves. And women are allowed in ministry. Coming from a very patriarchal religion, that was important to me. Unfortunately the Christian churches aren't the healthiest in Utah, (that I've seen anyways), but I have found that I can look beyond that and enjoy my walk with Jesus and other fellow believers. I've put perfection on the back shelf where it belongs.

And I have to agree that the majority of my exmo IRL friends are the ones that were the most devout members. That is also what got my attention during the beginning of my exodus. The exmos I kept running into were not druggies and crack whores/pimps like I'd been led to believe in all my years as a TBM. Imagine that! LOL

And as for the WoW, I admit I love a good cup a java and I long for the day my hubby sees the light so we can enjoy my new found love of wine together. I was (surprisingly) disappointed with Rum, but wine...yum! And I am secretly longing for a couple tattoos, LOLOL. But my morality views haven't changed all that much. I don't think sex before marriage is that big a deal, but I would rather my kids are adults and in committed relationships before trying it out.

Subject:	I STILL think that those of us who really took it seriously wind up here at exmormon.org
Date:	Feb 20 20:05
Author:	Matt

Or at the very least, out of TSCC. (This so called church)

Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org

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