Subject: I feel like I have just been stabbed in the heart.
Date: Nov 16, 2007
Author: Primus
Background:: Primus is a regular contributor to the forum.  He and his brother no longer believe in Mormonism.

My Mom is concerned about me and why I don't believe in the church. She sent me this copy of a prayer she prayed to Heavenly Father about me. I think I'm going to be sick.

Heavenly Father, I feel as sad as I have ever been. I can’t even believe what slipped out of my mouth a little bit ago, but it did. I truly was so upset from a phone call that I had with [his wife]. I said, “I wish that PRIMUS and I had died when he was born. I don’t want to go through this anymore with him and BRO.” I feel so ashamed of myself. It’s just that I feel like PRIMUS and Brother too are both trampling on the most precious thing that I own—my testimony of you, Father, and Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. They are both breaking my heart, and I don’t know what to do. All of their temple work is done and they just want to give it away! I’ve been crying so hard that my face is a total mess. My Mom has been gone for 24 years yesterday. I wish that I could talk to her. My parents and Dads parents aren’t going to have much of a posterity. I am so sorry about that. I wish more of our family was on track, but they are not, Father. Please help me! I am so tired of always feeling like I’m going to lose my two sons and my grandchildren as well. But, God, I love you and Jesus more than anyone. I just hope that I’m strong enough to endure this to the end of my life. Every test, every trial, every tribulation is getting harder for me. Please remember me as I endure all this. I feel like I am attending my sons funerals every day of my life. Please, Heavenly Father, please comfort me and give me peace. I will try to do the best that I can under the circumstances. I love you and Jesus with all my heart and soul. Just be with me and help me. In the name of my beloved Savior and Friend, Jesus Christ, Amen.

SHE WISHES I HAD DIED IN CHILD BIRTH. I think I'm going to puke.


Subject: This explains why you have putting up with your wife manipulating you...
Date: Nov 16 10:12
Author: runner

Your mother is trying to manipulate you too!

MY heart aches for you Primus, I can't imagine a mother sending this kind of crap to her son.

You have to remember that this is not your fault. You are not responsible for your mother's happiness.

It is not your fault that Joseph Smith made up Mormonism.

Wow! Your mother is being so manipulative and abusive.


Subject: Re: This explains why you have putting up with your wife manipulating you...
Date: Nov 16 10:20
Author: happy feet

"Your mother is being so manipulative and abusive." --runner

Yes, I agree, she is behaving in a very manipulative and abusive way. However, keep in mind that this is the way SHE has been treated as a Mormon by the Mormon church, and it is the only way she knows how to react to others who behave in ways that are contrary to her hardwired belief system.

Stupid cult.


Subject: Oh, Primus, I am sorry.
Date: Nov 16 10:13
Author: chocmool

I am following your story with sadness. I hope that you and your mother can reach a common ground sooner rather than later.

And don't let her guilt you.


Subject: Throw it back in her face.
Date: Nov 16 10:15
Author: Take a stand

"Mom, it's really great to read that you wish I had died at birth. I'm grateful to know that you have so little appreciation for me and my life that nothing I've done and nothing I will ever do means anything to you.

"Mom, let me absolve you of your guilt. I am no longer your son. I deny your stewardship over me. You no longer have to deal with me ever again. Since you expect to lose me in the eternities, we can start a few years early.

"Don't contact me again; don't ask after me again. Consider me to have been irrevocably adopted away. Your pettiness transcends anything that I could possibly have imagined. Your weird cultish beliefs have not merely driven a wedge between you and your children, but they've almost made it impossible for you to see how little you love them.

"Move on with your life and find the perfect children to be with you in your perfect little world. I will never meet your standard and I have no reason to aspire to. You'll be happier wallowing in your own little world of self-pity anyway."


Subject: Re: Throw it back in her face.
Date: Nov 16 10:19
Author: Michael

I cautiously agree with "Take a Stand." If she would rather you were dead, then you should excise her from your life, just like a cancerous growth.


Subject: Re: I feel like I have just been stabbed in the heart.
Date: Nov 16 10:18
Author: Ryniev

WOW! Okay. That was about one of the sickest, most manipulative things I have ever read. Even if she really *did pray this prayer (if you can really call it a prayer) the fact that she passed it on to you sort of proves that she only did it to make you feel really, really, really bad.

That's not a prayer. That's some sort of insidious, evil head game.

Shame on her.


Subject: Re: I feel like I have just been stabbed in the heart.
Date: Nov 16 10:45
Author: worried

Please see if you can get into some kind of counseling in order to deal with all that you are facing right now. What you mom did is sick and evil. Your so called Bishop is sick and evil as well. From reading your posts for a long time I can sense you are a good person and you do not deserve this. You need to talk to someone non-lds who can help you distance yourself from the situation and do what is best for you. In the meantime: go for walks, watch the comedy channel, listen to upbeat music. clear your mind. Take breaks from thinking about the Mormon church in any way, shape or form, even how stupid it is. Hear this: You are a good man: Your mom is nuts. Your bishop is evil. Don't ever set foot in his office again. He has no authority over you-none. I am rooting for you.


Subject: So sorry for you, Primus...
Date: Nov 16 10:26
Author: Tahoe Girl

I understand how painful this is coming from your own mother. I won't go into all the details of my mom, but when I was 27 she disowned me when I gave birth to my daughter who has Down Syndrome (she's now 21 years old). It hurt so much for a long time, and it never made any sense. Now of course I know it was never about me or my daughter. It was always my mother's problem. Though my situation was different from yours, I do understand the pain.

This "prayer" of your mother's is a good example of how whacked-out mormonism can make people. I hope you realize it isn't really about you personally.

Some points here:
- This is emotional manipulation. Many mormons learn to do this to control people or to induce guilt.
- YOU are not responsible for how she chooses to feel about this.
- Maybe you shouldn't talk to her anymore about this. It really is none of her business.
- The reason she said she wishes you had died in childbirth is so that she wouldn't be feeling the pain she's feeling now because of your choice to leave mormonism. But she is CHOOSING to feel this pain. You are NOT responsible for it.

I know my words won't make this situation go away for you, but remember you have the support of us here on the board.

Hang on, Primus. Bad times don't stick around forever. It does get better. :)


Subject: Re: I feel like I have just been stabbed in the heart.
Date: Nov 16 10:29
Author: Jumpsuit Jim

To say that prayer and mean it is disturbing.

To then send that prayer to you is one of the most vile things I have ever heard of. And I am sorry for you.

stupid "Families Are Forever" cult


Subject: Primus, let me fill in as a mom to you for this.
Date: Nov 16 10:32
Author: Cheryl

How old is this other woman under discussion? Probably, my age or younger. She isn't sane or motherly right now, so write off her ravings! Mothers love their kids unconditionally, want them to be happy, feel warm cuddly inclinations, want them to find fulfillment and live well, and don't think mothers get to control them after they're adults.

I'd be proud to have you for a son. That woman is selfish and harsh to the point of cruelty. Sad, she's lowered herself to such base and mean-spirited manipulation.

My own mother used her tactic with me and my exmo sibs in the past, so this woman isn't even being creative or original.

My mom loves the line, "You're stabbing a daggar into my heart and twisting it!" She socks her chest with both fists clenched together and has the twisting motion down pat! LOL

I have learned to laugh right into her face when she does this. It works better the louder the guffaws. Rocking back and forth and doubling over help, too. This dries up her tears like magic.

You might not be able to laugh right now, but please don't try to comfort her or be accomodating or overly kind. This behavior is not your responsibility. She has to get a grip, and she WILL, or she'll never be able to live a reasonably normal life.

Remember, this is HER problem and HER dysfunctinal church's problem. YOU did nothing to cause this mean unreasonable outburst!

She's a mess! She has to allow time and the human propensity for survival, to get her on track a bit. She'll probably always be TBM and so, be somewhat crazy, but this is ridiculous!


Subject: I agree with Cheryl...I do think you should tell your mom
Date: Nov 16 10:42
Author: runner

that you will not take her manipulating you in such a cruel way.

I don't think it's time to completely write off your mother.

This is probably a bad habit that she is in. She is scared, hurting, and thinks that if she lets you know just how much it will hurt her if her children don't believe the same way as she does, that you will decide to stay in the church.

I really think you should let her know that you will not put up with it. You love her and always will, but will not put up with this behavior.

What she doesn't know, is that she will get over you leaving the church and life will be O.K.


Subject: Re: Primus, let me fill in as a mom to you for this.
Date: Nov 16 10:50
Author: Left and Never Looked Back

Just tell her you are sorry she is hurting so much. But your personal decisions about how you live your life are now totally your own responsibility. You are an adult and are responsible for your own family's happiness. Your decision to leave Mormonism has nothing to do with her.

Tell her that her "letter" upset you and it makes you sad that she wishes you died at childbirth. That makes you even more determined to leave Mormonism. Personal freedom is the very reason Christ came to save us. And you do not believe you will be lost for eternity because the celestial kingdom is just a fairy tale written by Joseph Smith.


Subject: The most important relationship...
Date: Nov 16 11:01
Author: Rich

we can ever foster during this life is that relationship with ourself - being untrue to yourself in order to be true to your mother will NEVER work! NOT EVER! You can still take the high road without permitting yourself to be manipulated by such unbelievably heavy-handed tactics. Good Luck.


Subject: manipulation - runner is right
Date: Nov 16 11:04
Author: T-bone

I had a really good counselor that I saw my first year of grad school. I related a similar story, and she basically said, "Sounds like your mother is trying to manipulate you."

Mormon mothers have a really hard time with their children growing up.

I'm almost 40, and she still says things that I wouldn't even say to a 10 year old. She does it to all of us. It says more about her inability to let go than it does about us.



Subject: You would think the easiest thing would be to cut her off...
Date: Nov 16 11:08
Author: Adult of god

but these relationships are just about permanent in our lives and we're better off learning to deal with them in a rational, matter-of-fact manner, instead of as hurt, rejected children.

Yes, your mom, Primus, is trying to manipulate you back into the fold. Otherwise she would have kept this "prayer" to herself. (She never prayed this unless she spoke into a tape recorder; it's humanly impossible to recall that much verbatim.)

A few years before my father's death (in his nineties) I was sitting with him, and apropos of nothing, he says, "I've been a bad father to you." I say, "Oh, yeah? How have you been a bad father?" He says, "I haven't taught you to love the church and be close to the church." I replied, "No, Dad, what you didn't teach me was how to balance my checkbook, how to exercise everyday, and how to find a good mate." He gave up on that one!

Another time I had pressed my conflict-avoidant ultra TBM sister to the point where she had really had it with me. She said, vehemently, "I don't want you in my life anymore! I am setting you in a little boat and shoving it out to sea and you are gone from my life forever!"

I left the house very hurt and in the course of running my errands, I cooled down. I had the thought, live by the analogy; die by the analogy.

I went back and told her, "You can't get away with that; I'm turning the boat around and rowing it right back to the beach and climbing out and being with you. You can't get rid of me like that; we're sisters!

And so we have been and it has been a bumpy ride sometimes.

Your mom is just pulling out all the stops and blaring loud. You, who are so witty and imaginative, can come up with something that will call her on her rejecting nonsense. And it IS nonsense; you're both alive and here and, take it from me as a mom, she loves you, as her child, FAR more than you have loved her (just like you love your kids more than they love you).

If you notice, she (supposedly) prayed to have died WITH you in childbirth. That would have changed a lot of things.

When you can, get a grip and have some fun with the old girl.


Subject: Re: I feel like I have just been stabbed in the heart.
Date: Nov 16 11:12
Author: Claudia Banghead

My own mother could have written that *prayer*. I agree with people who have told you to limit contact with her. You cannot allow her to manipulate you in this way. My TBM parents live in another state so it is fairly easy to keep a physical distance. I only see them for a few days every year or so. I delete emails unread. And I speak briefly with my mother on the phone every 3 or 4 months. If she starts with any manipulation I end the conversation. <Sorry mom, gotta go, the washing machine is overflowing.>
Please start taking steps to allow yourself some distance from this kind of abuse.


Subject: Yet mormons complain that exmos are bitter?
Date: Nov 16 11:17
Author: Julie

Gee, it is hard to imagine why we'd feel bitter...not!

This extreme emotional manipulation would be hard to believe if I had not experienced similar things with my own family.

Like my father telling me that because I did not marry in the temple, God would make me infertile as punishment.

Newly out of the church, part of me actually believed him, and I was frightened. So I became obsessed with getting pregnant.

Well well well, I got pregnant on the first try. What a surprise. I produced their very first batch of grandchildren, who were their only grandchildren for a long time (since my TBM sibs are younger than I am and got married later in life). My parents expressed no enthusiasm over my kids whatsoever. Their attitude: What's the point of getting to know the grandchildren if they aren't going to be with us in the eternities?

Ignoring his previous threat of Gods punishment, Dad switched tactics and began advising me that I would soon feel differently about the church now that I had children. He predicted that I would naturally become "desirous" (is that a real word?) of having an eternal family, that I would soon convert my husband and return to the fold.

Well...he was wrong about that too. Now, tactic number three, I apparently do not care about my children since I have not brought them up within the "safety and security" of the church. I am a bad mother because I have neglected my children's religious education. Hmm. I suppose it is a great mystery why my kids are turning out so well. Perhaps Satan is only deceiving me into thinking my kids (now teens) are well-behaved, thoughtful, peaceful, moral individuals.

Of course, now that my TBM siblings are popping out children, my parents spoil the Mormon grandkids rotten. I receive emails about how well my little neices and nephews are doing in Primary, and how good and cute they are at saying their prayers. Emails come complete with photos of the kids dolled up in their church clothes. Brief "PS" additions about how one sibling sold the toddler dress I sent as a birthday gift to a consignment shop because it was sleeveless and therefore 'immodest'. Ugh. Thanks mom. Next time I will send a toddler sized muu-muu.


Subject: Sorry Primus. It'd be hard to hear that from your Mother.
Date: Nov 16 11:22
Author: larry

But with all due respect, she's kind of messed up. That sort of manipulation is BS, even if she sees it as an act of concern or love.

Your Mom doesn't really wish she or you died at your birth. The statement is total theater aimed at guilting you into doing what she wants. It was purely selfish.

You're an adult who can and will make your own decisions. Your mother--and wife-- need to accept that and stop treating you like a child. If not then you can never have any real relationsship with either of them.

It's hard but you need to make it clear to the women in your life that you won't be manipulated.

My $ .02


Subject: Sorry Primus. It'd be hard to hear that from your Mother.
Date: Nov 16 11:22
Author: larry

But with all due respect, she's kind of messed up. That sort of manipulation is BS, even if she sees it as an act of concern or love.

Your Mom doesn't really wish she or you died at your birth. The statement is total theater aimed at guilting you into doing what she wants. It was purely selfish.

You're an adult who can and will make your own decisions. Your mother--and wife-- need to accept that and stop treating you like a child. If not then you can never have any real relationsship with either of them.

It's hard but you need to make it clear to the women in your life that you won't be manipulated.

My $ .02


Subject: I agree with Cheryl, she gave you very wise advice!
Date: Nov 16 11:24
Author: JBug

Please don't let this guilt-trip crap from your Mom keep you from doing what YOU feel is right!! I am so proud of you and wish you much luck. You are a good and brave man, and you are also setting a good example for your children--showing them that the LDS cult is not the right way to go! When they are older, they will have your example to follow and perhaps will free themselves from the cult.


Subject: Primus . . . .
Date: Nov 16 11:42
Author: JackMormon'sWife

(You need a real name for this kind of pain).

Your mom is nuts! YOU ARE NOT.

Did anyone notice how she blathered on about loving "Jesus Christ" and all the other "dieties" including Joseph Smith . . . but she never ONCE said she loved Primus or his brother?

What type of mother does this?!! I can't wrap my head around it. Oh yeah, old Nazi-TBM Mormon Royalty types (like my mother-in-law). Now I remember why we still haven't told my MIL that we've resigned from the church and busted up HER eternal family, too.

So Primus, The cat's out of the bag now with the wife, the Bishop, the parents. This is absolutely the *hardest* part of exiting from Mormonism. Be good to yourself (take your meds, see your doc - seriously), visit a counselor if you need to. Stay on top of the mental health thing in the midst of all this mess. After your co-worker's murder, and now THIS, you could easily slide down into major, life-altering depression again.

Now is the time to stay well, for your boys' sake. Find something to keep your sanity!

And keep checking in with us. We care. Most of us have been through something similar.

Hugs and Luv,
Jack's Wife
Shannon ;o)


Subject: Yes, you're going through the hardest part right now.
Date: Nov 16 11:50
Author: othersteve

And you will reach the other side and be OK. JMW's note to you is spot-on.


Subject: You have no control over your mom or your wife...
Date: Nov 16 11:44
Author: passerby

Control your own mind.

I bet that you understand why your mom and your wife act and think the way they do. Whether it's right or wrong, you understand where they are coming from. Will they change for your happiness? Will you change for theirs? If any of you change, are you being true to yourselves?

You have no other choice than to identify the cause of suffering as originating within your own mind. You are wise because you know how they think. Is it wise to let their ignorance affect you? Do not cling to anger and sorrow. They are only desires within you and should be discarded.


Subject: Total selfishness and conditional love.
Date: Nov 16 11:46
Author: BadGirl

It's all about HER. You're just trying to HURT HER.

I don't know what to say. My parents used to pull the same shit. It has taken them decades to mellow out.

Just don't even read the stuff. Try not to talk to her unless it's on YOUR terms.


Subject: Alternative approach...
Date: Nov 16 12:02
Author: ExScriptureChaser

Okay first, I agree, this was manipulative to the max. My mom started down this path but I nipped it by saying things like:

"How great she is to have raised an independent child who is able to think for himself and to make decisions that are right for me and that I still feel loved and accepted by my parents". Tell her how much you appreciate your their support even though you know they do not understand your choice.

There are many ways to say this, keep drilling that message into her: It takes a great parent to raise a child who has the confidence to make their own path in life. Let her know that you are the architect of your life and you have never been happier. Let her know that you do not expect her to change, but you do expect her to accept you and allow you to live your life the way you see fit and that she should examine what makes her feel like death is a better alternative to a living son.

That being said, it sounds like dear Mom needs anti-depressants and may be suicidal (a common Mormon problem).

The temple hostage plan is working in your Moms life. She feels she must control you and do anything and everything to keep you in the church or she would rather you died. The temple ceremony breeds the plan of eternal loss, literally held hostage to promises in the temple or you lose your family forever. Your Mom loves you and is only warped because of faulty Mormonism concepts and this is a great example of the damage Mormonism causes.

I also agree that you need to be objective enough to know that this is NOT your fault. This is fallout from a false belief system which has made belief more important than a sons life. That is not your problem, it is hers. She needs to cut those apron strings and let you live your life and quit worrying about you and deal with her own problems that have nothing to do with you. I used to assure my Mom alot that she would see me on the other side, even though I did not believe in Mormonism any more. She said she knows that because 'you are too good of person for God to ever reject'. I miss my Mom... she has passed on now and she now knows the truth.


Subject: No more fairytale - Not all parents give unconditional love or are even good at it
Date: Nov 16 12:05
Author: Serena

I get so annoyed at hearing and reading how because someone is your mother/father, they must really love you deep down. Crap. Some people have their parental rights revoked, and rightly so. It's not an innate characteristic, to be a good, loving parent. There's nothing magical about it. Some people admit they don't want children, so they don't have them. Bravo! There are plenty of people so emotionally stunted that they can't manage to honestly want what's best for their child/children. They're too wrapped up in themselves.

"You only hurt the ones you love" isn't accurate. We are only capable of hurting those who love us. Whether we love them or not is immaterial.

I'd have to revoke her parental rights. She doesn't deserve them, or you, Steve.

Please, try to be strong. We're pulling for you.


Subject: I'm so sorry man, I know how this's time to love yourself now..
Date: Nov 16 12:06
Author: chadspjut

you are being pulled in all directions right now, and as someone who has an equally controlling mother, I would say, it's time to take a break from them all. You need time to sort through everything without all of their emotional bullshit. Mormons are so very well trained for this type of behavior. Their god, their church, their leaders have the power of control and manipulation down to an art form.

Take some time away. If you need to, take your boys and go out of town for a few days with them, or go away for a few days by yourself. You live in a very beautiful part of the country, and I'm sure you can find a great place to spend a few days and think. Love yourself buddy. Love yourself. Their's is not love. Sadly, even your wife's love is not really love, so you must love yourself.

Don't let them get you down. Stand up and shake them off. Don't let the fear of the unknown keep you bound any longer. You have come so far, now keep pushing through and let life go as it may. You can't control others anymore than they can control you, so live your life for yourself and hope they come along, and if not, at least you will be living on your own terms and in as authentic way as you know how.

You can do it! All the best, -Chad


Subject: No, she says she wishes you and she had died.
Date: Nov 16 12:09
Author: munchybotaz

There's a difference, and consider the Mo-belief behind it (i.e., that babies who die automatically go to the CK).

It's crazy, anyway, and super mean spirited and manipulative to send it to you.

It's not about you. The note itself isn't even about you. It's all about her.

Can you say "mental problem"? Because your mom seems to have one.

Oh, and by the way, if she really believed in her prayer, there would be no need to share it with you.


Subject: You are not worthy,
Date: Nov 16 12:28
Author: Flying Under the Radar

This is one of the most insidious teachings of the church. You haven't committed a felony, just said you didn't believe that the church is true. You just can't follow that pretend prophet that leads the church founded by a philandering conman, probably a lot nicer then I just did. But that denial is worse than if you had defrauded indigent legal clients (IRL, a TBM lawyer in my town did that, was disbarred and is still worthy). The denial is a horrible crime, against pretend authority.

While I haven't been told that my mom wishes I had died at birth (ouch, so much for family values), I get the attempts to shame me into compliance.


Subject: Re: I feel like I have just been stabbed in the heart.
Date: Nov 16 12:30
Author: robertb

Your mom has made open and explicit what you've known and been trying to live with all along, I suspect. If you can you might reply to her:

"I recognize you're having a hard time with this. You're telling me you wish we were both dead rather than having this happen. In spite of that, I need to do what is best in the long-run for me, and I'm sure you'll work it out."

Shannon is right. This is the hardest part. In a while, people's feelings will settle down and you and everyone else will sort things out. Nothing will be the same from here, and although, in my opinion, the best thing is to see through what you've started, take the time and get the support you need.

And yes, be very careful of depression. Get any support you need.

Subject: A little love for Primus.
Date: Nov 16 13:43
Author: Timothy

Its always been my contention that TBMs don’t believe in the church any more than ExMos do. Its just that TBMs view their situation from the wary standpoint of having to start all over again.

Back in 2000, my TBM mom decided it was time to take another poke at revitalizing her wayward son’s testimony by getting me an Ensign subscription. I politely asked her to cancel said subscription on the grounds that I already received way too much junk mail, but she refused in typical TBM fashion.

Now, I could have cancelled the subscription myself, but this was an issue of principle, so in order to push my point, I began writing reviews of each issue then sending those reviews out to various family members and non-Mormon relatives via email. My review of the December issue - titled “Merry Smithmas” - proved to be the show stopper. Mom was understandably pissed and sent me the following letter (note the condescending tone):


January 18, 2001


Enclosed find solution to one of your problems. You should:

1. Sign letter and put in envelope provided. (you don’t even have to buy a stamp and I even made a copy for your records.)

2. Put letter in mailbox outside your home (be sure to put the little red flag up so the postman will pick up)

Its that simple. Something you could have done for yourself (as I told you before) months ago. Although some feel that canceling this subscription will alleviate your out of control rage, you and I both know differently - as you already don’t want to stop the rage and abuse, do you? FYI - I don’t read your outrageous babblings anymore - I just check the subject matter of (old email address) then delete it. Therefore, if you have anything important to say to me via e-mail, you might want to get that said first, then go into your opinionated blather - otherwise, I won’t read it.

GET A LIFE - Search for a positive, uplifting cause - one that will actually help someone and make a difference in the world. You have done this from time to time in your life and because of right choices, you were certainly a better person to be around then than you are now. You remind me now of a 2 yr old in the middle of a rebellious “terrible twos” temper tantrum. Get your butt off the computer Stop hiding behind the guise of being a legitimate researcher and truth-seeker because this is making you a liar as well. Get some medical/substance abuse counseling /treatment - THEN get out into this world and find something useful again to occupy your mind and time. There are homeless people, sick people, parentless children, and all sorts of projects and cause to engage in that will do some good in this world before you leave it (AND YOU KNOW THIS VERY WELL). Stop behaving like an ignorant, non-thinking BUM. Because you are not!

I love you - But I abhor the thing you are allowing yourself to become!



Like your mom, Primus, mine is a master manipulator. Problem for her is, it works with my other siblings but not me. I was the first to leave the church and that was back around 1975-76. I won’t say its been all fun & games (as this letter no doubt indicates), but I wouldn’t change my decision for the world.

Here’s the letter I wrote to my mom in response:


24 January 2001

Dear Mom:

You have done what I asked and while I’m not sure why you chose to do it this way, I will trouble you no further regarding this particular matter.

When you are ready to hear the real truth, give me a call. In the meantime, why don’t you head over to Deseret Books and grab a copy of “History of the Church” and “Journal of Discourses.” I think you’ll find both very interesting reads.

Of course, you do have to read them.

I would relieve you of the guilt you have suffered for most of your life. You have done nothing wrong. You are not “unworthy” of any god or any reward. Humans make mistakes and you will not be judged by those mistakes, but by how you react to them.

Also, in your last letter, you petitioned me to get some medical/substance abuse counseling/treatment. I haven’t done that yet, but I did talk to my psychologist friend about me molesting my little sister. My friend thinks the allegations stem from certain mental disorders in little sis, but I defended her all the way saying, “No, no, no, she’s a good little Mormon and would never bear false witness!”

Of course, my friend and I had this conversation while doing acid, smoking weed, drinking whiskey and fornicating small infants in the maternity ward at the hospital where she works. You know, with all my drunkenness and evil ways, its amazing how I can hold down steady employment and manage to pay my bills on time. Haven’t moved in 23 years either (unlike some folks I know). Hey, I’ve even been married to the same person all these years as well!

My life is so miserable without the church!

Well, I guess I’ll go get a life now! … Oops, I forgot! … I already have one! … Anyway, if you need help getting yours back together, give me a call. It’s the same phone number I’ve had for more than two decades now!

Your Son (whether you like me or not);

Big Tim

You’re not alone, Primus. It pains me to no end that I can’t have a meaningful relationship with an otherwise intelligent and caring person as my mom, but I’m not going to let it ruin the rest of my life. Mom has issues. Issues she refuses to deal with. I’m not going to allow such narrow-sightedness and selfish immaturity to influence or manipulate my state in any way whatsoever. I didn’t ask for any of this and I ’d just as soon things were different, but they are not, and I’m under no obligation to make compromises.

In my mind, any parent who would put God, JuHEEsus, and a church ahead of his or her own child is not fit to be a parent. Likewise, any church that would demand such is not an organization worthy of association. Your life is just that - YOURS! - but you have to decide if you or someone else is going to live it.

The decision should be obvious, my friend.

This is the Gospel according to Timothy … On a sailing ship to nowhere, leaving any place, If the summer changed to winter, yours is no disgrace.



Subject: God should also read it!
Date: Nov 16 14:24
Author: Timothy

He/She/It is the most toxic parent I know!



Subject: Re: God should also read it!
Date: Nov 16 15:23
Author: GeorgeW1988

I agree!

It makes you wonder what sort of society they had in ancient Israel to make up these stories about an angry guy who wanted everyone to be miserable. It also makes you wonder what's wrong with people today, that would adopt such an angry and dysfunctional god.

The gospel according to Timothy is . . . cool! :)

Lots o' love for you Primus. I don't know you, but I feel for you!

Subject: I logged 10 minutes ago....
Date: Nov 16 14:34
Author: Hotwaterblue say this very thing. Primus you are not alone. I'm 55 and my dear, sweet, vile, guilt shaken, angry, afraid to die former Relief Society President 82 year old mother still tortures me.
It used to bother me to no end but recovery has been good to me. I smile a little smile at her antics, smile at her in person (I live 2500 miles away so that's not often), but put a smile in my voice when I call.
I try to stand above the anger even when she gets pretty personal. She (THEY) can't help it. The entire business of "No success in life can compensate for failure in the home", has warped them beyond repair and their capacity to be nice. The wake up with guilt about "US" and go to bed with tears in their prayers for us.
It's the Morg torturing them every single day of their life.
If you don't do something pretty soon and establish some space YOU can live in, the Morg will torture you through your loved ones until you do. It won't go away when you make some space, but you'll have the space to deal with it and eventually move pretty freely.
Good Luck Mr. Primus. We all ache for you inside and out. It's time to shit or get off the pot. And we all know how good a substantial dump can feel.


Subject: Mormon parents (like mine) don't believe in psychology, obviously.
Date: Nov 16 15:10
Author: NewLauren

Wow, when a parent accuses their grown child of being a failure, that is very harsh!

The first reaction is to become defensive, but there is no defense against ignorance. Your life speaks for itself! I liked Timothy's response in describing his life. For example, instead of saying he was stable, he referred to living in the same house for all those years. Instead of throwing his mother's divorce directly in her face, he mentioned he has been married to the same wife for all those years.

Other posters have said that their parent "doesn't know" them. That is true! So many TBM's can't see past the end of their nose, and they see others as stereotypes. Arguing will never get them to see the truth--they have been carefully brainwashed not to.

My favorite paragraph in Timothy's post was:

"I would relieve you of the guilt you have suffered for most of your life. You have done nothing wrong. You are not “unworthy” of any god or any reward. Humans make mistakes and you will not be judged by those mistakes, but by how you react to them."

Here's why. Most of us are good people, or would like to think we are, and have some love for our parents. We do understand THEM, right? We used to be brainwashed automatons, too, before we recovered. In spreading "The Good News" to our loved ones that their fears are not real, and that God loves them unconditionally, we are trying to be kind to them.

You said your mother fears death, and we all know why. You could help her overcome that fear, but she won't allow it. She is the one who is destroying your relationship, not you. Frustrating, isn't it.


Subject: And I hope I'm not painting too grim a picture for Primus, BUT ...
Date: Nov 16 16:11
Author: Timothy

... we teach people how to treat us and there comes a time when we must solidly establish our boundaries.

TBMs demand relationships be strictly on their terms. Fine, then I guess we won't have a relationship. Whatcha gonna do 'bout that?

It hurts to have to do that, but it puts the ball in their court. How they react determines whether the relationship was ever worth pursuing.

Even so, I still leave the door open. Its up to them to walk through it.



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