|Subject: Part 1||What shocked you the most? (for those who were Mormons)|
|Date:||Dec 24, 2007|
|Before I learned the hidden history of Mormonism,
there were things that bothered me such as, for example, the guilt-tripping
sermons aimed squarely at the ones who attended faithfully. In my mind, I
naively thought, "It's OK. The church is here to help the members become
In fact, I was in one of my most TBM [Mormon] phases when I began to search the Internet. I'd heard at least two different NPR progams, one on polygamy and one on the Mountain Meadows Massacre and blood atonement. I was unprepared for the volume of knowledge that hit me like a flash flood; it swept my foundation completely away within a 1-2 month period.
I think what shocked me the most was the extent of Joseph Smith's polygamy - marrying teenagers, other men's wives, and doing it under the pretext of a divine threat, etc. I was blown away by the church's lack of honesty in portraying its history. As I learned the truth about the Book of Abraham, the facts about Native American DNA, Freemasonry and the endowment, different versions of the first vision, Smith's background with "seer stones" and money-digging, it all fell apart.
I was appalled by the barbarity of Brigham Young - his teachings on blood atonement, his support of violence as in the Bishop Snow incident, his racism, and his condescension toward women.
I lost all confidence in Gordon Hinckley when I heard him say in regard to a key Mormon doctrine, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it."
When I finally came out to my bishop in 2003, he said I should study and pray more and my former stake president stated "you can have doubts but if you ever teach anyone about them, you know what I'll have to do." I was incensed; I wrote my resignation letter that very night and I sent it in eight months later.
Oddly enough, it took me several months to stop attending church altogether and to quit wearing garments. I feared the impact leaving would have on my family, my marriage, and my profession (teaching in the heart of the Morridor).
It's been just over four years since discovering the truth. DW [dear wife] still tells me that she misses me at church and people ask about me. Funny, I still live in the same house and I have the same phone number. No one is really that curious to call me or stop by for a visit. I suppose I am anathema to most TBMs and that's fine with me.
|Subject:||Re: What shocked you the most?|
|Date:||Dec 24 22:37|
|Things like BoM archeology/DNA evidence and the BoA
embarrassment combined with the character of Joseph Smith had deconverted me
within a few weeks of uncovering said information, ironically while visiting
the FAIR site which is supposed to provide apologetics (actually it was on
the message boards). The excuses (apologies) were always ad hoc, convoluted
But it was a combination of things. The BoA controversy was certainly what killed my testimony but the reason I was able to believe what was said was knowing about JS' career as a money-digging occultist. Ironically, some of the information about Smith was based on Mark Hoffman's forged documents. Of course then it was like, hey, why didn't Prophet figure out that these were bunk. Kind of a catch-22 for the church.
Anyway upon finding out about the dark and dirty past of TSCC I suppose everything I saw was in the light of "this is a satanic cult founded by a convicted swindler." From there every reference to "tithing" and "missionary-work" stood out like a sore thumb. There were plenty of them in SM, EQ, etc but I think I might have remember more than there were since my attitude was "hey these guys are conmen trying to rip me off."
I did try and make a good go of it for a few months after that but eventually fell behind on my tithing and finally made the break after hearing an obnoxious sermon by Boyd Packer which was filled with sexist/homophobic right-wing crap.
I was pretty sure that I had a "testimony" at one time. I felt the burning and all that and the "voices" were going "it's true, it's true" over and over again in my head. I know now that is was undoubtedly my overactive conscious repeating what I had heard time and time again in SM and was undoubtedly brought on by sleep-deprivation and/or overwork. At the same time I saw that moment as genuine contact with the holy ghost and virtual communication with the divine and it was hard to give that up.
|Date:||Dec 24 23:00|
|The sexism, racism, polygamy, occult and masonic
influences -- all troubling even for many TBMs but truly shocking when the
true extent is discovered.
But the sheer stupidity of attempting to cover it all up is truly shocking. Discovering the deliberate and methodic practice of lying by omission or otherwise make it so flippin' easy to leave.
|Subject:||It was the 3 versions|
|Date:||Dec 25 05:52|
|of the first vision. I found that out while on my
mission. I read it in an very old church history book where I was staying.
I immediately went into depression and denial and went to a hospital, and from there home, after 1 month on my mission. It took several years after that and reading Grant Palmer and this board before I accepted what I knew from day one: It is a crock of shit.
|Subject:||It started with the head in a hat|
|Date:||Dec 25 18:31|
|And this shocked my missionaries, afterwards we ended
up watching music videos and they didn't leave until well after the 10.30pm
lights out asleep in bed deadline .I know their life and perception of
church changed that evening.
Then the marrying of other men's wives and also teens and asking for other men's wives and all the rest of it .
The church hides it purposely and not only that all of the polygamy is hidden and instead they are made to look like honorable husbands in monogomy .Its a disgrace.
|Subject:||An apostle lied to me|
|Date:||Dec 25 18:56|
|About Brigham Young's Adam-God doctrine.
I had found irrefutable evidence that BY had taught it, and it continued to bother me. I finally decided to try to settle the matter. If the doctrine were true, I was willing, as a faithful member of the church, to accept it. If it were not true, I needed some explanation about the apparent fact that Brigham Young (and other church authorities of his time) vigorously taught it. So I composed a letter to Joseph Fielding Smith, whom I respected very much, and who at the time [1950's] was the Church Historian and the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. If he would only answer my letter! I spelled out to President Smith my dilemma: the evidence seemed to be clear that Brigham Young had taught that Adam is God the Father. But the present church does not teach this. What is the truth?
I secretly thought (and perhaps hoped) that President Smith would write back and say something like: "Dear Brother, your diligence and faith in searching for the truth has led you to a precious secret, not known to many; yes, you can be assured that President Young taught the truth: Adam is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to deal. The church does not proclaim this precious truth because we do not wish to expose the mysteries of God to the mockery of the world. Preserve this secret truth as you do the secrets of your temple endowment."
I received a short and clear answer to my letter from President Smith. It was quite different from what I had expected. He wrote that such an idea was unscriptural and untrue, and completely false. He did not deal with the evidence that Brigham Young had taught it. He ignored the whole problem as if it didn't exist.
Either Smith was a liar and servant of Satan, or Brigham Young was not a prophet. Either way, the church was false.
|Subject:||When I saw the old geezers reading from a teleprompter.........|
|Date:||Dec 25 22:23|
|at Gen. Conf.
Any fool can read but speaking from the heart seems to be a bit more difficult.
|Subject:||Finding out about polygamy for eternity (small swear)|
|Date:||Dec 25 19:48|
|It was Todd Compton's book that caused the first crack
in my armor. I had no idea about the young girls, the married women, the way
Smith bribed the women by promising them eternal salvation if they would
sleep with him, etc.
That caused me to look deeper into the polygamy issue. The way I had understood it, only those who experienced polygamy in this life would be the ones to have it in the eternities too. Boy, was I wrong. I found out, after being through the temple, after being sealed, after 15 years as a super TBM, that I had been lied to.
I thought that I had made sacred covenants in the temple to be married for eternity to one man, and that one man to me (only). After all, doesn't the Primary song go, "I always want to be with my own family"? Being with our own family - just mom, dad, and the kids, and their families - is an outright lie that the LDS teach their children!
Briggy made it very clear, as does the D&C, that "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" is *polygamous* marriage! There is no way out of it, there is no way around it. Polygamy for eternity is the only way to have the highest degree of exaltation. So, WHY wasn't this told to me BEFORE I went through the temple? If I had known this information, I wouldn't have done it, I wouldn't have made the covenant.
From there it didn't take long to see the many many other ways I had been lied to, deceived, manipulated, and misled by LDS doctrine and LDS leadership. It is still painful to think of the 15 years I dedicated to that church that I will never get back. I know the truth now, that the whole eternal marriage thing is irrelevant, because the LDS church is false, and for that knowledge I am grateful. Stupid dumbass cult.
|Subject:||What shocked me, and continues to shock me:|
|Date:||Dec 25 21:33|
|That so many very intelligent and upstanding people,
including my parents (when they were living) do not (did not) see through
all the lies.
How can they not see it? It shocks me, but also makes me so very sad.
|Subject:||I'll second that idea Ken...|
|Date:||Dec 25 22:28|
|Author:||Just wondering 1|
|How intelligent people will not accept factual
evidence and how they will let their feeling override facts.
No matter how many times you show them 1 + 1 = 2, they still think that 1 + 1 = 3.
|Subject:||My list of shocks|
|Date:||Dec 19 11:07|
|That the earth, and man, were created in six days,
measured by the morning and evening
That the sun was made on the fourth day
That the first woman was made from Adam's rib
That the sun stood still for Joshua
That the earth was completely drowned out by a flood
That the arc saved two of every kind of organic life gathered from all over the globe to start a new world
That all present life comes from animals that were saved from the arc
That each species is the result of a separate creation
That the human race was doomed to eternal torture because Eve was tempted by the serpent and man was tempted by Eve
That two or three thousand years later man was offered a chance for redemption by believing in an immaculate conception and a physical resurrection
Wait, wait. I misread the question. These are things that shocks ANY rational person about ANY Christian religion
|Subject:||Not so much shocked as fed up,|
|Date:||Dec 26 00:42|
|Author:||Hap E. Heretic|
|disgusted, and totally disillusioned with church
leadership, the hierarchy of authority, and the organization in general.
Got tired of all time-consuming requirements. Got sick of all the guilt trips. Got fed up with the abuse of authority by church leaders. Grew very weary of people who couldn't and wouldn't think for themselves.
I pulled away from Mormonism long before I learned the truly shocking stuff about TSSC. [this so called church]
Just couldn't believe "the one TRUE church" would make people feel so miserable, instead of inspired and loved.
Got sick of feeling sick.
|Subject:||The head in the hat.|
|Date:||Dec 26 00:43|
|I'd wanted to free myself from the burden of the morg
for so long. When I found out about the hat trick, I wondered how I could
have been so easily duped. I mean, come on. A rock in a hat?
For my mother it is the Joe's extra-marital activities.
For my sister, it was the rogue treatment she experienced after her divorce from a TBM priesthood holder who spread malicious and false rumors about her character.
|Subject:||What really shocked me|
|Date:||Dec 26 01:06|
|Author:||Obi wan kolobi|
|Was that so many members know more than they let on, yet continue to cling to the church, primarily because is it all they've ever known. There are some extremely intelligent church members who cling on to the implausible for reasons that are personal. It is amazing the power the "Corporation of the President" has over some really intelligent and talented people.|
|Subject:||Yeah, me too!|
|Date:||Dec 28 06:20|
|I've encountered so many that are fed up, disgusted, don't believe in certain key doctrines, and just want change, but then cling to church for personal reasons. This describes me, as well, though, since I haven't totally fessed up to my wife and have not submitted my resignation letter. It's all typed, though, and ready to go, but I have to postpone it to this summer. (For my Aussie friends who post, summer is between May and September when it's hot in the bulk of the northern hemisphere.)|
|Subject:||Being told not to question|
|Date:||Dec 26 01:18|
|As a little kid, I picked up a copy of an anti-Mormon
book just to see what on earth all of these nasty anti-Mormons were saying
about us. It wasn't even a good one - the book itself did nothing to shake
my faith. But when my parents found it, they told me that I shouldn't read
it. I asked what the harm could be if it was all lies, and they replied that
Satan could still use it as a way to get into my heart. That started my
questioning, because if the church was true, of course it would stand up to
Also, I was shocked by the vile things written in the "Crime Against Nature" section of The Miracle of Forgiveness. It's as bigoted, uninformed, and poisonous as Fred Phelps' preachings.
|Subject:||My first trip to the temple in 1987|
|Date:||Dec 26 08:42|
|I was TBM, BIC in suburban Salt Lake City...I was
preparing to go on my mission, not because I had the missionary zeal
necessarily, but because that's what 19 year olds do in suburban Salt Lake
City, but I was a believer (I didn't know anything about the gospel or the
history...like most suburban Salt Lake City 19 year olds).
So, I went to the temple a few weeks prior to my mission...and watching my 80 year old grandfather and 80 year old grandmother pretend to slit their throats and disembowel themselves was really a shock.
I was never comfortable going to the temple after that experience...
|Subject:||Most of the things I learned my first two days on RFM.|
|Date:||Dec 26 08:59|
|Author:||Elder George Carlin|
|After a couple of days, I accepted the fact the LDS Church was a man-made religion. Then nothing really surprised me.|
|Subject:||Ricks, Mission, BYU, Temple, take your pick...|
|Date:||Dec 27 17:21|
|Almost everything about the church was so
disappointing! I was promised so much about the church my whole life, but in
experience it provided such bad leadership, damaging actions and lack of
blessings, the shock was every time I tried to reconcile the fantasy with
In particular, things stood out as I went through Ricks College, my Mission, BYU and the Temple...
I was taught to love Free Agency, but when I got to Ricks College, I encountered something not unlike a Nazi informant system. Dorm buildings were chained shut in violation of fire codes. Bishops were reporting confessions to school authorities. Dorm phone records were analyzed for links among known standards violators. Kids were hauled into 'Student Life' (interrogation over standards violations) for 'stealing' christmas ornaments out of the trash or adding beer as part of their hair conditioner.
I was taught to love Charity and to keep my good deeds a secret. I was taught that our relationship to God was personal. But in BYU, our tithing interviews were held in public. Our ward had roaming mobs assigned to go door to door harrassing students who missed church on any given sunday. We were given a church attendence percentage which would dip (at risk of BYU expulsion) if we attended other than our assigned campus ward.
I was taught that on my mission, I'd have the gift of tounges. I believed in spiritual guidance, and holy protection. Instead, the MTC was like a soviet re-education camp. My mission field was like a replay of 'Lord of the Flies'.
I was taught that leaders were inspired, and called by inspiration. Yet my Mission President was a complete psychopath and destroyed my health and nearly my sanity as he ran that circus, so imagine my surprise later, when I called the Mission Office to report what had gone on, I found my old Mission President had been promoted over that entire area, and was training new Mission Presidents in his destructive practices. What's shocking is to see a man like that promoted to General Authority, and then you wonder what the folks above him must be like.
In the temple, I thought my faith, obedience, study and sacrifice would count for something, that I would get some answers to my prayers, that I could get at least the most basic good feeling about marrying my girlfriend in the temple and staying in the church. But instead, I felt nothing. How's that for a failed BOM promise?
At first these events were all shocking, but as the failed promises, poor leadership and lack of inspiration piled up, it became less and less shocking over time, until finally I realized I was sold an unending string of lies about the church, that it's promises are useless, that its morality and leadership are below me, and that I'd have to leave, and find something better on my own.
|Subject:||Re: Ricks, Mission, BYU, Temple, take your pick...|
|Date:||Dec 28 01:20|
|Author:||Hap E. Heretic|
|Wow, DH, well put!
You summed it up great!
Wouldn't change a thing.
So glad you found your way out.
Good on ya!
Peace to you.
|Subject:||Discovering that my own family was perfectly willing to destroy me because I'm gay.|
|Date:||Dec 27 17:38|
|No heterosexual today, religious or non-religious, can
possibly imagine the experience of realizing, at some point in their
childhood, that the powers that rule their world consider an essential part
of who they are to be subhuman. And simultaneously discovers that their own
family is perfectly willing to destroy them by whatever means are necessary.
My so-called older brother took it upon himself to fulfill the "suggestions" of S.W. Kimball and B.K. Packer and tried to beat me to death on three separate occasions. My so-called mother and so-called younger brother saw—and still see—no problem with that. After all, it was for my own good, wasn't it?
Who says Mormonism isn't a cult?
|Subject:||flattop...wow...I'm sorry to hear what you were forced to go through.|
|Date:||Dec 28 00:28|
|Author:||Elder George Carlin|
|Luckily, we can choose our friends...and can distance or completely remove ourselves from poisonous families we were born into.|
|Date:||Dec 28 01:30|
|Author:||Hap E. Heretic|
|It's the kind of incomprehensible treatment you
endured that lead me to see the church for what it really is.
What you experienced was despicable, and all too common in TSSC.
When families justify assault, leaders instigate abuse, and hoards of young people harass "in the name of the Lord", something is VERY, VERY WRONG.
So glad you've escaped from that nightmare.
I wish you peace always, my friend.
|Subject:||My hart goes out to you flattopsf...|
|Date:||Dec 28 04:18|
|That is a sad story that is repeated all to often in the name of "family values". Even as a gay man I can not imagine the pain you went and continue to go though (parents cool with the gay thing as long as I don't put on a dress <parent's humor>). I have seen others go through it and from that have learned that it is a deep hurt that can not be understood unless felt. I can tell you that what you are going through drives an intense anger in me that motivates me to stand up to the religious bigots of the world.|
|Subject:||MJ, Hap E. Heretic, Elder George Carlin: Thanks for your notes—|
|Date:||Dec 28 10:18|
|I have to say that all those things happened a LONG
time ago. I also have to add that my sister and father always stood by me,
and that I've worked through most of the issues surrounding this.
What did I "lose"?
1) My "family" felt otherwise, and abandoned me for their church. How evil is that? I don't care - that's their loss, not mine.
2) The man I live with is my family, and all of his parents, siblings, nieces and nephews treat me better than half of mine ever did. My sister (who is also gay), her partner and their children, and my extended family of friends is composed of people who love without conditions.
3) My community is made up of many individuals and groups that I feel bonds and kinships with that I NEVER felt in the Mormon church.
4) I've had many spiritual experiences in my life. What I discovered before I was ten years old was that they had NOTHING to do with the Mormon church nor any other church.
5) I've pursued many intellectual endeavors in my life. These also had NOTHING to do with the Mormon church, which is an enemy of the human intellect.
6) I've had many emotional experiences—good, bad, and otherwise. Looking back, I know that if I'd stayed in that nerve-numbing place I was twenty-five years ago, I would not be here now. I learned to FEEL after I left the Mormon church, and consequently, learned how to LIVE.
In short, I lost nothing. I survived what can best be described as ten rather creepy teenaged years relatively intact. I gained infinitely more than I lost. I made an investment in myself and it has repaid me better than if I'd won the lottery: I gained self respect.
|Subject:||A 2-year experiment|
|Date:||Dec 28 01:49|
|Author:||PresMethLuthUnit Bible Chick|
|For various reasons, with which I agreed, my husband
left the church right after we were married, and I stayed tbm, to raise the
children in the church. When our marriage began to fail, because of his
infidelity, I decided to leave the church, and see if he and I couldn't come
to some sort of partnership in our marriage. Another reason I left the cult,
is that a group of men in our ward, including my husband's brother and two
closest friends, were encouraging adultery, as a group, but that is another
story. I thought that was just some crazy fluke, and did not happen in other
Those two church-free years had completely unexpected impact on my life! I thought my tbm friends and family would understand that I was giving up church to save my marriage. Instead, they either shunned me or hounded me. Fortunately, I had friends who were volunteers with me in the children's school. We became very close, and I joined them in attending some of their church meetings at the Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, and Unitarian churches, and joined a secular Bible study group, plus the Junior League charity organization. My newer non-mormon friends turned out to be much more religious, honest, kind, and moral than the mormons.
Instead of saving my marriage, I saved myself. I would recommend this to anyone hovering on the brink, anyone uncertain whether to leave or stay in the cult: try leaving, and see how you feel.
My level of happiness soared! I felt loved and accepted by the nice people in our California neighborhood and school district, and always welcome at the other churches, whenever I felt like attending. How could my children and I possibly be so fulfilled and excited about life, when their father was always on the golf course or with other women, and neglecting the family? I concluded that my previous unhappiness had less to do with my stupid husband than it had to do with my stupid religion.
I knew the mormon church was not true for us, in our life, long before I found out it was not true, period.
|Subject:||I think it was the sheer presumptuousness. . .|
|Date:||Dec 28 02:41|
|of telling adults what kinds of books they could or
could not read, and what kind of movies they were allowed to see.
I was also shocked when the bishop asked me (after future hubby and I had told him we planned to marry) whether I was going to use any form of birth control. WTF??? We were in our FORTIES and already had 4 kids between us from earlier marriages. I'd already had a tubal ligation but didn't feel that was any of the bishop's business. I just side-stepped by saying we weren't especially concerned about that issue.
|Subject:||The first 'chink' was a comment from p'hood upon the death of my nevermo hubby....|
|Date:||Dec 28 03:46|
|I paraphrase a little because I've mostly excised this
from my memory but went something like this: "well Sister Briggy, the Lord
is really showing how much he loves you by giving you a chance to marry
someone who can take you to the CK"
Thereafter I was 'persuaded' to mingle with mature unmarried males in the church and obeyed. I mingled with the weirdest characters on this planet during this time. Finally, having been persuaded to broaden my options I was shown LDSPlanet. Subsequently, after many e-interactions I was invited over to the US by a very gentlemanly meek soul whereupon we enjoyed Thanksgiving and got on very well. The relationship appeared to blossom and I was busily convincing myself that the Lord had brought us together. The next thing I know we are standing before the SP getting 'married'.
Obviously, I had to return home, knowing that I'd have to wait a year or so before I could live with my TBM husband. During the first year I visited for a 2 week stay several times, at my own expense. Things began to go downhill in my absence. He left his job and subsequently lost his home for non-payment of rent, injunctions from his ex, his son getting involved in criminal activities and so on. I was not yet retired and he continued to ask me for money so I was constantly in the Western Union office sending this - not what I expected from a p'hood holder.
Fast forward to my penultimate 'visit'. The marriage was still unconsummated (for so-called medical reasons but I was patient and persuaded that this was my fault). My 'husband' was now living in a motel. Upon my arrival I was presented with the bill for the previous and current month, which I paid. This was the time I discovered how far behind he was with alimony payments. I did not blame him for this as the demands did appear brutal; however I also discovered the true reason for the divorce. He was a tyrant. I witnessed the most appalling cruelty towards his young son and realised that I'd made a terrible mistake. However, I returned home with a troubled heart, the marriage still unconsummated and endured more requests for more and more money, which I sent to him.
I finally told him by e-communication that I could not return to visit until he'd 'sorted himself out'. I was engaged in an ongoing transaction which would close everything down at this end, including property issues. It appeared that he was waiting for all this to come to fruition as he told me we'd be financially secure once this was all completed. Then he told me he'd found a wonderful home for us and urged me to get on a plane to see it, which I did. During my visit I discovered that he'd 'borrowed' this lovely house from a wealthy member. Also, I was offered a job paying good money which I was to start once the immigration stuff was completed. It had been more than a year since this all started so I was hopeful that things would get better, I could work on relaxing him a little and making him feel loved and secure, which I hoped might mellow him out a little and put everything else on the shelf. After all, I'd got myself into this and it was up to me to sort it all out.
I then made a shocking discovery. The 'unconsummated' marriage had not been notarized and nothing had been filed with regard to my immigration. I asked him for a copy of the marriage certificate and he admitted that it didn't exist as we'd only had an 'ecclesiastical' marriage. There was no way I would go back. I realised that I'd been had and told him to get the thing annulled. He replied with two words "drop dead". This man had been EQP, HPGL etc. etc. and was uber-uber TBM, despite everything. His tyrannical behaviour and abuse of his p'hood had been the catalyst for his marriage break-up, according to the RS sisters over there. He had warned me that they were harridans and told me not to listen to their lies.
This has to be the most bizarre experience of my entire life. I am happily restored to my former status (I hope) as I haven't had any contact since then.
Am I married to a TBM? Who knows? I did write to tell him that I'd resigned from the church because during all this weird stuff I'd stumbled upon the truth as a result of his admonishment to learn church history. I recall the first shock was the Bishop Snow affair after which the floodgates had opened and life became much clearer.
The last I heard he'd left the US to his first home in Canada. I assume he'll get all the welfare help there that he needs and for that I'm happy enough.
So - there it is - Briggy's last 3 years on a plate. What think ye?
BTW - the reason for my gadding about Europe to visit family has been partly their efforts to get me to live closer to them (or with them) and to help me see the world from a wider perspective. It has worked and my next move is still to be decided.
|Subject:||I'm speechless, Briggy!|
|Date:||Dec 28 10:35|
|Thank goodness you're home safe and out of the morg!
You were grieving a great loss and on top of it, suffered the finacial and emotional drain of that abusive priesthood guy and his kind! You're a strong woman to have survived so much and be here to tell about it.
|Subject:||wow! It occurs to me that few of us know how to determine what is normal and healthy.|
|Date:||Dec 28 12:52|
|I recently met a friend who is an Adult Child of an
Alcoholic who lent me the complete sourcebook by Janet Woititz. I believed
it would help acquaint me with an unfamiliar world and give me some
I had no idea how that book would affect my life. It has been the next best step in my on-going soul searching liberated move toward growing and evolving as a person.
The book details the dysfunctional families inability to understand the difference between normal and healthy versus not healthy. I realized that this dysfunction wasn't limited to the alcoholic family, but was very similar to the religious fanatic family, or more precisely the fanatic mormon family. The key points are that these families are consumed with denial and cover ups and lies. Truth is not welcomed or if truths are discussed it is very clear that no real action can be taken on it.
*** As a result the family members don't understand how to recognize dysfunction (that which is unhealthy) or how to take appropriate action on it therefore the dysfunction continues.
When I read your story I saw parallels between your past tbm behavior and the books illustrations. It is definitely worth your read. One of the main things Mormons have in common with Adult Children of Alcoholics is the secrecy and inability to determine healthy versus non-healthy due to the fact that we were taught that the thing which is unhealthy is healthy and the thing which is healthy is not healthy.
|Subject:||Re: What shocked you the most?|
|Date:||Dec 28 10:44|
|My mission woke me up to the real reality of mormonism.
I was gung-ho. But, when I returned home, I evaluated what I had done and
realized it was all a con game and a stat game (getting people to join - no
matter the cost). I realized the members were objects to be used by the cult
leaders. I also learned that the Morg does not appreciate the sacrifices of
When I started to question - the so called saints - became wolves. Most mormons were still good to me - but I could sense the distance. Others attacked and wounded me bad. I went through a depression trying to overcome the brainwashing. At my lowest point, several leaders - ripped me to shreads. I realized then that these so called leaders were not inspired - nor men of god.
What shocked me the most is that people are desperate to believe anything - even if it is a pack of cult lies - and that the cult will try to destroy anything that gets in its way - of total control.
|Subject:||Okay--that there were gays in the church--shocked me the most (the crime against nature)|
|Date:||Dec 28 12:01|
|After reading all your posts--in the end, it is that
there were gays in the church. That was the beginning of a very LONG end for
me. I thought what I had been taught and to find out my boyfriend was gay
and THEN that there were no answers and they just pulled answers out of
their AS*ES to the gay situation. Then they asked me to sacrifice my
chastity to save my gay boyfriend--as if only he could experience straight
sex, he'd never go back to gay sex.
It was all downhill from there.
Brigantia--I am so sorry for what happened to you. I've heard so many HORROR stories about LDS single men--I've had many friends in the past date them and my sister recently signed onto LDS Singles (although she has been inactive for 30 years) and you wouldn't believe the lies told on that site (and none of the pictures match the in-reality looks). What a HORRIFIC thing to experience after losing your husband.
|Subject:||The Sheer Number of Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics|
|Date:||Dec 28 12:12|
|I couldn't cope with the Temple, cheap, shoddy and ersatz but what shocked
me once I started to research was the sheer number of problems.
If you explain away the problems with the First Vision, you have to cope with the DNA, if you can explain that away, you have to cope with the problems with the BoM historicity, and once that's cleared away, there's the BoA and once that's explained away there's the treasure seeking, the polygamy, the Kirkland Bank, the Navoo Expositor, the megalomania, the sexual predation, the foul mind of Brigham Young, the Danites, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the racism................
|Subject:||Like you many things flooded over me.|
|Date:||Dec 28 12:33|
|The first major thing that shocked me was the COMPLETE
Smith story, as you mentioned it, and the dishonesty and cover-ups around
that story. I had difficulty with the fact that the TRUE church which was
enmeshed in concealing by lying and NOT telling the truth. The worst was
marrying other mens wives while the men were still living by sending these
men off to missions in other countries. Hiding the marriages in secrecy and
of course the angel with a flaming sword hit me. I had read that flaming
sword scripture many, many times before, but I never thought ANYTHING about
it. After I had all the pieces of TRUTH it hit me like the proverbial ton of
bricks as a demented means of using god oriented fear messages.
The other major factor was the DNA truth versus Smith's Book of Mormon lie. That's what released it all and took away my fear of not going to heaven by realizing that I had been lied to by religion that does not like truth at all, but perpeutates myth through secrecy and excommunication.
Slowly, very slowly, I began to feel sick because I didn't know what to do with this information or how to process it in my life. I guess that's why the leadership likes to keep it all a secret. They don't want to have a herd of sheep stampeding over the cliff.
|Subject:||Polyandry . . . .|
|Date:||Dec 28 13:57|
|Joseph Smith "married" other mens' legal wives.
Disgusting. Sickening. The straw that broke *MY* camel's back.
|Subject:||Polyandry is practiced by women, not men.|
|Date:||Dec 28 14:02|
|Tibetan women, for example, have several husbands. It
does not work the other way.
Polyandry's a nice idea. But not polygamy (multiple wives). That doesn't appeal to me.
I'm not sure why there's more outrage on this board towards Polyandry than towards Polygamy. I think it's pretty misogynistic. The outrage seems to be based on JS taking the property of other men.
|Subject:||Right. Polyandry . . . .|
|Date:||Dec 28 14:30|
|If a legally married woman took Joseph Smith as her
SECOND husband then she was involved in a polyandrous relationship with more
than one man, right?
I'm confused. Do I have the word or definition wrong?
Anyway, Joseph Smith "married" and had sex with his friends' wives. That's what shocked me most about the church. Sorry if I wasn't clear . . .
|Subject:||People keep saying JS was practicing Polyandry.|
|Date:||Dec 28 14:43|
|Not unless JS had multiple husbands.
And I just want to know why Polyandry is any more shocking than Polygamy???
Why is it more shocking for a woman to have two husbands than for a man to have two wives?
The objection seems to be that JS was stealing another man's "property" -- his wife. And I find that mentality appalling.
|Date:||Dec 28 14:57|
|Hafta say, the biggest one was that Brigham et al
killed Joe Smith's older brother Samuel to keep him from becoming the leader
of the Mormons.
After reading all the other shenanigans about 10 years ago and leaving the Morg (No Man Knows My history, etc.), I figured I'd just leave it all behind. Then, after getting on exmo.org I read an archived post outlining how after Jo Smith was killed, Brigham and team went to great efforts to wipe out competition for control of the church, including poisoning Samuel Smith.
Assassination for political purposes *really* wigs me out. That's when I saw the whole LDS kingdom as having no depth to the levels it will drop to to control its own people, and when I resolved to do my best to undermine it for the benefit of my TBM kin and friends. ...
|Subject:||Several shocks along my path|
|Date:||Dec 30 14:13|
|There were several shocks:
1. Finding out as a TBM the "the truth is dangerous..." that "it destroys" and some LDS leaders (Boyd K. Packer) knew the truth and wanted to keep me from it.
2. Discovering later that most TBMs have no interest in learning the truth and will shamelessly tell you as much point blank.
3. Doctrinal and historical shocks: Polyandry, BOA [Book of Abraham], DNA, and other lies and misrepresentations.
4. "Anti-Mormon" material held up to scrutiny much better than LDS lesson manuals.
5. That after a lifetime of selfless service and callings, once it was discovered I had apostate leanings I was ignored and shunned by ward members, family members and friends.
6. That happiness outside of the LDS church was far more intense and peaceful than the temporary self-righteous rushes I felt in it.
7. The people I'd always thought were misguided and faithless growing up were actually RIGHT! This is still a cause for giggles and amazement.
8. That my former mission president and current GA (an intelligent successful scientist) had no better defense or explanation for his "testimony" than "There's no way JS could have gotten XX right!" Uh...what about all the XYZ he got wrong? And he's never heard of BKP's "Evil Truth" talk.
9. That the general population's opinion of Mormons isn't as glowing and admiring as most Mormons believe. Once they find out you're leaving it, they spill their guts as to how weird they think it is. When you're in it, they are just polite and keep their mouths shut. But Mormons think the world looks up to them.
10. Being gay is nothing like the caricature society and especially LDS imagine it to be. There is as much variety in behavior and taste as in the world at large.
11. In spite of the horrible treatment and disgust that some people have shown me, the majority of family and friends are loving and supportive of my courage to be true to myself.
12. Integrity and authenticity is always more admirable and peaceful than unnatural cheerfulness and righteousness.
|Subject:||Re: What shocks you the most? - more material requested|
|Date:||Dec 30 14:15|
|The following shocked me:
The temple ceremony. It was a cult initiation, and nothing can change that. It was just dreadful, and I came away feeling frightened.
The mission experience. I learned I was dirt. I was wrong to get typhoid, wrong to question anyone, wrong to be homesick, wrong to find it hard to enjoy annoying people in their homes. I did not know the church is a quasi military organization. It is.
The history horrified me. I did not know how much I had been lied to. The entire history of the Mormon church is questionable---at best. There were some good people ensnared by it, but the leaders were, and still are, vain, arrogant, self-serving, jerks. And Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were just despotic frauds. They could not have been less inspiring or less honest.
I was never able to come to terms with the hurt. I was less than acceptable a good deal of the time. I did not believe, I doubted. I spoke out, and did not see things the way I was told to. I was told I was many awful things----but I was only guilty of what Mormons hate above all else---HONESTY.
|Subject:||DNA evidence, plain and simple . . . .|
|Date:||Dec 30 14:17|
|The American Indians (Native Americans) are NOT
descended from Hebrews/Jews. They are ASIAN. Hello?!!
The entire premise of "The Book of Mormon" is false.
Now *THAT* was a shocker to my Mormon sensibilities!
|Date:||Dec 30 14:17|
|I guess what really shocked me the most was when I was
still a true believing LDS, and started reading Church sources, like Brigham
Young's discourses, History of the Church, and other books published by the
church. Some of the things the prophets and apostles said and wrote just
astounded me. I looked them up in the Ward or Stake library or even went and
bought the books myself so I could see the accuracy. Some that shocked me
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, and seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."
"The negroes are not equal with other races when the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."
...As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the negroes"
"Cain Ham, and the whole negro race have _ cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry."
~Bruce R McConkie
"At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse - as a punishment and as a sign to all others.
" If there is one drop of negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse, There isn't any argument, therefore, as to intermarriage with the Negro, is there? "Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it."
~Mark E Petersen, apostle
"The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised. [...] The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl- sixteen- sitting between the darker father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parents- on the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated."
~Spencer W Kimball
Reading in the History of the Church about the many times Joseph Smith was drinking alcohol, even after the Word of Wisdom was in place. Also he was licensed to distribute alcohol: History of the Church, vol. 6, pg. 111, "Section 1 - Be it ordained by the City Council of Nauvoo, that the Mayor [Joseph Smith] of the city is hereby authorized to sell or give spirits of any quantity as he in his wisdom shall judge to be for the health and comfort, or convenience of such travelers or other persons as shall visit his house from time to time."
"I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." (History of the Church, vol. 6, pgs. 408-409)
‘Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."
~quoted by apostle Russell Nelson in the 1993 Ensign
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens...I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form -- like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man....it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the veil, so that you may see....and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did."
“You say, "That man ought to die for transgressing the law of God." Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, an put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.”
"He (God) set the temple ordinances to be the same forever and ever and set Adam to watch over them, to reveal them from heaven to man, or to send angels to reveal them."
~Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol.4, p. 208
“And consider those of us who live in America — where is the justification for widespread birth control here? Is this country in danger of starvation? Are we over-populated? Or do we have a more selfish reason for using half the world’s contraceptives?”
~Mark E Petersen
"Birth Control is wickedness...When a man and woman are married and they agree, or covenant to limit their offspring to two or three, and practice devices to accomplish this purpose, they are guilty of iniquity which eventually must be punished" "It is the duty of every righteous man and woman to prepare tabernacles for all the spirits they can.... Moreover, may we not lose our own salvation if we violate this divine law? Birth Control leads to damnation."
~Joseph Fielding Smith, prophet
There are so many more, but you get the idea. All a LDS person has to do is read LDS books from their own stake library to find out that the church is not what they think.
|Subject:||That God had physical sexual intercourse with Mary to father Jesus.|
|Date:||Dec 30 15:36|
|I first heard of this from my Mission President in 1974.|
|Subject:||Re: What shocks you the most? - more material requested|
|Date:||Dec 30 15:42|
|The temple ceremony first. Being taught how great and
wonderful it was, how much more I would learn and how it would bring me
closer to God. In retrospect, it scared the life out of me. To enact
slitting my throat and 'disembowling' myself if I were to ever reveal the
secrets of the temple.
Years later when going through a divorce, realizing and being told that if I remained a valiant daughter of our Father in Heaven, I would still be admitted to the kingdom of God by being given in plural marriage to a worthy man.
That was the catalyst in my exit.
I would be number one because I am good enough, worthy enough and the man I would choose to be with would be grateful to have me and only me. And I him.
I did not need, nor want a hero with multiple wives to be my eternal companion.
I am not a second class citizen and I am good enough to be called by God to live with him with or without a man based on my own merits not judgments of others.
|Subject:||The Foundation is a Cesspool|
|Date:||Dec 30 15:56|
|Was it Joseph Smiths sexual conduct, i.e. his rape of minors, adultery,
polygamy, polyandry, lying to Emma and others, and the extreme level of
deceit he crafted in order to justify his sexual activities?
Or was it Joseph Smith's fake "Book of Abraham", which is maybe the easiest way to expose him as a fraud?
Was it Joseph's constant re-inventing of his so-called first vision tales, each one getting bigger and better than the previous version?
Was it the exposure of the Book of Mormon as a fraud, and the discovery that DNA science and technology proves conclusively that Native Americans did not descend from the Jews?
Was it the countless failed prophecies of Joseph Smith that the church seeks to hide, and which you never learn about in the official church manuals?
Was it the blatant racist doctrines which persisted in the church for so long?
Was it the intolerant, homophobic doctrine and homophobic culture that polluted and still polutes the lives of the members?
I once listed 50 things that were problem areas for this so-called church:
1. Joseph Smith – Paedophile Activity
2. Joseph Smith – Polygamy
3. Joseph Smith – Abuse of Emma Hale
4. Joseph Smith – First Vision/s – Re-inventing the Tale
5. Joseph Smith – Evolution of Concept of God
6. Joseph Smith – Free Mason Activity
7. Joseph Smith – Temple Rituals & Garments
8. Joseph Smith – Occult Activity
9. Joseph Smith – Law Breaker
10. Joseph Smith – Book of Mormon
11. Joseph Smith – Book of Abraham
12. Joseph Smith – Kinderhook Plates
13. Joseph Smith – Priesthood “Resoration”
14. Joseph Smith – Corruption of Other Mormon Leaders
15. Joseph Smith – Destruction of Nauvoo Expositor
16. Joseph Smith – Failed Prophecies
17. Joseph Smith – Add-ons and Other Gospels
18. Joseph Smith – Counterfeiter – Kirtland Bank Scandal
19. Joseph Smith – Bankrupt
20. Joseph Smith – Mis-appropriation of Church Property and Funds
21. Joseph Smith – Political Activity
22. Joseph Smith – Promise Breaker
23. Joseph Smith – Military Activity
24. Joseph Smith – Worship of by Members
25. Joseph Smith – The Gate to Heaven
26. Joseph Smith – Changing the Mormon Scriptures
27. Brigham Young – Degenerate
28. Brigham Young – Murderer
29. Brigham Young – Abuse of Emma hale Smith
30. Brigham Young – Extreme Misogynist
31. LDS Inc – Racism – Doctrines & Policies regarding Blacks
32. LDS Inc – Corporation / Conglomerate / Enterprises
33. LDS Inc – Investor in Brothels
34. LDS Inc – Hallmarks of a Cult
35. LDS Inc – The Reed Smoot Debacle
36. LDS Inc – No Focus on Jesus
37. LDS Inc – Sons of Dan (Danites)
38. LDS Inc – Continuation of Polygamy after the “Manifesto”
39. LDS Inc. – The Gospel of Hopelessness
40. LDS Inc. – Homophobic Activity (then hide the evidence)
41. LDS Inc – Shopping Malls v’s Charitable Donations
42. LDS Inc. – No Financial Disclosure
43. LDS Inc – Lying about Membership Statistics
44. Gordon B. Hinckley – Media Interviews
45. Gordon B. Hinckley – The Dissembling Prophet
46. Gordon B. Hinckley – The “I don’t know” Prophet
47. Gordon B. Hinckley – Gullible - The Salamander Hoax
48. Gordon B. Hinckley – Gullible – Paul H. Dunn
49. Gordon B. Hinckley – On Being a Prophet
50. “Prophets Seers & Revelators” – They Never Give a “Special Witness”
If the mormon church really was the church of Jesus, do you honestly think these problem areas would exist?
The church is on the back foot, with every single problem. It doesn't have a single half decent explanation for any of these problems.
|Subject:||Those were great! I was most shocked at my gullibility.|
|Date:||Dec 30 17:15|
|1. The golden plates story is the clear con-man's
2. "...and by the power of the HG you may know the truth of all things..." is designed to only delude the honest seeker after truth. Nothing is as simple -- or potentially as unreliable -- as getting a "feeling" about truth.
Once it sunk into my rather thick, prejudiced brain that a God wouldn't have to play tricks with us, the whole house of cards tumbled down.
A god -- as I learned in MormonDumb -- that is as capricious and silly as Elohim as to concoct a written golden record, that he needs to have "translated" by a Urim & Thummim, that is then just tossed away and "translated" by putting a river-stone in one's hat, that could have just been written by old Joe through inspiration -- all that complexity seems so beneath a Supreme Being. That this Being has so many silly rules -- magic underwear, throat-slitting, sacrament prayers that must be spoken JUST SO -- suddenly became incomprehensible to me.
And the Power of the Holy Ghost could just as easily testify to having an affair as that the Book of Mormon is true.
It's a con-man's game. Clear and simple.
|Subject:||Shocked to find out I had to give up loud laughter! (cuss)|
|Date:||Dec 30 18:58|
|I went through the temple a short year after being
baptized and when I heard them say I had to covenant "to avoid all
light mindedness, loud laughter"
Well, I just about crapped a brick!
I had just covenanted to NOT LAUGH LOUDLY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE??!
Holy Frickin' Fart! That sounds cult-ish!
I really was in shock but no one else seemed to be bothered by it, including my husband who looked so cute in his Pillsbury-Boy-hat smiling at me across the room :)
I was also shocked again a little later when I convenanted (under duress by now) to:
"consecrate yourselves, your TIME, TALENTS, and EVERYTHING (meaning MONEY) with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, FOR THE BUILDING UP of the Kingdom of God on the earth and FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT OF ZION."
WHAT? I'm consecrating *everything* in my life to the building up of ZION?
Holy Flickety! That sounds cult-ish!!
I wish I could go back to that moment in time and I'd yank that ugly ass veil off my head and run like hell.
|Subject:||Oh man, I have to add...|
|Date:||Dec 30 20:03|
|When I was standing in the temple and was told I was
promising to listen to my husband's counsel and then they said BOW YOUR HEAD
AND SAY YES! I bowed my head with all the other woman and mumbled, yes. I
did it each time I went to the temple doing endowments for the dead, even
when my husband was beating me. WTH! SUBMIT.
And the first time I went through the endowment in the temple the day before I got married, and they put people in a circle around the alter for the "true order of prayer." Okay, I felt weird standing around an alter with a bag of papers on it with peoples names on them, but ok. But then women had to veil our faces, put our arms to the square on the shoulder of a guy, and take someone in the "patriarchal grip" and bow our heads and then every few words the guy would pray, he would pause and we had to parrot what he said. THAT was bizarre. But it really freaked me out at the part where we all had to raise our hands above our heads and chant, Pay Lay El! Pay Lay El! Pay Lay El! WTF!!!!!!!!! And then they had the nerve to change it...
|Subject:||That Joseph Smith tried to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon|
|Date:||Dec 30 19:10|
|in Canada. And, when it didn't sell, made the
statement that some revelations are from God and some are from the Devil.
Um, if he couldn't tell the difference, and he was supposedly a "prophet",
how can his followers tell the difference? How do they know for certain
where their "witness" that the LDS church is true comes from . . God or the
Devil? Joseph was confused, and so are they!
Besides, why would Joseph attempt to sell the very book that had supposedly come to him from God? That says it all, and that piece of information was all I needed to know about the con-man.
|Subject:||2 devastating issues|
|Date:||Dec 30 19:26|
|1. the temple ceremonies
2. that JS put a stone in his hat, and pretended reading in the dark
OMG, if only I had known about these two things, I'd never ever have joined! But there was no Internet those days. That's my only defense. I'm still ashamed for joining the Mormon cult.
|Subject:||Realizing it's not a religion--it's a multilevel con.|
|Date:||Dec 30 21:45|
|and every one of them, all the way up to Dallin Oaks
says basically, "So what? I Dennis Farley spoke at Exmormon Conference. He
told how he went up the line of PH authority telling each one that he no
longer believed. Every one EVERY ONE! all the way up to Dallin Oaks,
basically, said some form of "me too, I have my own doubts." They told him
to just hang in there and weather the storm--Oaks said don't throw Mormonism
away it away until he found something better. Farley responded "Nothing is
What kind of an organization doesn't care about truth AND also doesn't care if its leaders don't believe? The shocking answer-- the only possible explanation-- the LEADERSHIP doesn't believe it!!
It is the only explanation that fits all the above shocking examples of a rudderless ship. Thomas Ferguson gave up his entire life attempting to prove the archeology of the BOM. When he failed publicly, even disgraced for drawing attention to the lack of any evidence, he whimpered he still wouldn't leave the church because it was the best "fraternal organization" ever.
|Subject:||There were SO MANY things, but finding out that Priesthood Blessings didn't REALLY work...|
|Date:||Dec 30 21:55|
|Author:||Just Little Ol' Me Not Logged In|
|...was a biggie for me. I had a very sick friend when
I was 17 and they were always giving her blessings. She never recovered, and
eventually died. That crushed me. And WHY have we never seen anyone raise
the dead? If it is the same p-hood restored, WHY aren't the powers/end
results the same?
Also, as a 19-year-old, I was called to a "god-inspired" (yes, I got the whole lecture)calling, only to show up to sacrament meeting to be sustained, and have someone else's name announced. Yeah, they back-pedaled BIG TIME to get out of THAT one.
Then, as a 21-year-old, single and pregnant, I went to LDS Social Services. I was planning on putting my baby up for adoption because there would NEVER be any further contact with the "sperm donor." After 3 months, I changed my mind. I was treated HORRIBLY, yelled at, belittled ... I was horrified. I thought they would be HAPPY for my decision. Long story short, the doc that worked with them told me I had a miscarriage and scheduled me for a D & C (that term always stuck with me for obvious reasons), when, in fact, they performed an abortion on me (I only found this out in hindsight, being too naive then). I hope they all burn in HELL.
Going through the temple after being brainwashed for SO MANY years about how "beautiful/spiritual" it was just about killed me off. The "washing and anointing" scared the hell out of me and I never wanted to go back ... but, of course, was GUILTED into it and into thinking it was MY fault for not feeling anything but stress and utter contempt while I was in that place.
Being married (in the temple) to a BIC Mormon, RM, the whole 9 yards, and being abused in every sense of the word added to my undoing.
NOT being able to conceive after marriage, and being called in and CHASTIZED by the bishop for "curtailing the birth of our children (you'd think his mantle of the p-hood would have given him more inspiration than that).
After 6 years of not being able to conceive, getting an answer to MY prayers that I needed to eliminate stress in my life (3 church callings, etc.), asking the Bishop to be released (he was cool with it) then going to the SP for my recommend and being CHASTIZED (he pounded on his scriptures on his big-ass desk and yelled at me) for NOT supporting my bishop.
Finding out (around age 35), through many different avenues (memory recovery and corroborative facts from siblings), that I had been sexually abused (at Primary and elsewhere) by the church janitor (remember those days?) ... who was also my best friend's dad (and had a temple recommend).
Going to the temple (as we had decided on adoption and wanted to make sure we were doing the right thing), only to find out ... my now ex was NOT worthy ... and had an affair only 1 month prior to our attending, therefore jeopardizing our entire adoption process. As "luck" would have it, I was already 1 month pregnant on that temple visit ... and my baby was born later that year. He told me about the affair when she was 5 months old.
There is SO MUCH more, and DITTO to all the previous posts.
What TRULY amazes me is that I stuck it out for 40 years. Abuse must have been some kind of comfort zone. Just shows the stronghold a cult can have on people. We've all been through SO MUCH and we need to give ourselves HUGE pats on the back for our strength and courage!
Thank the UNIVERSE there is LIGHT at the end of that tunnel, and it ain't just another damn train!!!
|Subject:||When I first learned that Joseph Smith used a rock in his hat...|
|Date:||Dec 30 22:09|
|to translate the Book of Mormon, I was both surprised
and not surprised at the same time. This was in my last year as a student at
BYU and I learned this little historical gem from a Church History professor
(who has probably since been fired by the Church).
I was already doubting so much about the Church, having been thoroughly disillusioned with all the disparaties between reality and faith-promoting hype that I had come across. So, my first response was: "Well, this really fits now, doesn't it? Everything else that the Mormon church has claimed has turned out to be a joke when I have learned about what really happened and now I find out that the Book of Mormon was 'translated' by aid of a magic rock in a hat and that Joseph Smith conducted the translation by stuffing his face into the hat. It really fits."
But the shocking part was that I fully realized then how intentionally dishonest the leaders of the Church had been in the way that they presented Church history and omitted key facts. Here I was at 24 years of age just now finding out how the Book of Mormon translation charade had really been conducted. I had been an exemplary seminary student, I had been a diligent missionary, I had years of Sunday School lessons, Primary lessons and Priesthood lessons under my belt. I had attended several "Know Your Religion" programs and had read several dozens of issues of the Ensign and other Church publications from cover to cover and had never once heard about the rock in the hat.
The effectiveness of the Church's historical clean-up and whitewashing operation was shocking and impressive. This was before the Internet was a force to be reckoned with and I found out simply because I had the good fortune to meet a professional historian who had taken the time and had had the opportunity to do some genuine research and who was not interested in acting as a "sanitizer of history" on behalf of the Church and its leaders.
|Subject:||Book of Abraham|
|Date:||Dec 31 00:22|
|Author:||D. P. Gumby|
|The whole Kolob thing seemed to be way out there, but
then once I learned about the true translation of the papyri it became
obvious that Joe made the whole thing up. That caused me to start wondering
about what else Joe might have made up.
As I started looking into things, I was struck by the convenience of Joe's revelations in the D&C - build him a house, give him money, and especially polygamy. It became clear that Joe was getting "revelations" not to lead the church, but to satisfy his own desires. That was pretty much the final blow for me.
I didn't learn about the Kinderhook plates or the stone-in-the-hat trick until long after I was gone. By then it didn't matter - I had already concluded Joe was a fraud.
|Subject:||I was was most shocked by the realization that the Mormon Church . . .|
|Date:||Dec 31 02:59|
|had supplanted large areas of my self: I had allowed
it to tell me what to think, how to feel, what to do and not do, who to have
relationships with and on and on. It took me a long time to wake up to this.
What woke me up was reading about how corporations often do a lot of
internal PR work in an effort to supplant employees' values with the
I immediately thought of the "Mormon Ads" that the church was airing and realized they are aimed at the membership as much as non-members. They were putting out a public image for the members to live up to. The light went on for me and I began to recognize just how much of my self I had allowed the Mormon Church to control. That realization more than anything else woke me up and within a short time I resigned.
My bishop essentially confirmed my opinion in my last meeting with him. When I asked him if I disagreed with the church on a serious matter is it possible I could be right and the church wrong. He said no. I said then I couldn't live as a Mormon and always be "wrong" on important questions when I disagreed. The degree of control the church seeks to have over its members is shocking.
|Subject:||What shocked me THE most? That's a hard one.|
|Date:||Dec 31 09:33|
|It's like asking someone who stepped in a pile of dog
crap what part of the experience displeased him the most. There isn't really
any one thing about stepping in dog crap that seems to stand out... You
stepped in dog crap, and now you have to clean up the mess. The whole
That being said... I was shocked so many times, and made to feel like s*** so many times it that it's hard for me to say what shocks me the most about Mormonism, but I'll try.
1) The Pre-1990 temple ceremony. From being naked under a poncho with old-guy fingers touching me, to watching my parents and ward members/friends make throat slashing gestures all the while dressed in outrageously silly outfits... To this day I get a little nauseated thinking about it. That was definitely the end for me. Sure it took me another 10 years to extricate myself, but I was on the way out after that.
2) Polygamy/polyandry. From the first time I heard about it at age 15 in Sunday School to the relentless teasing I took from friends and strangers, those two issues were things that I could never reconcile. It was beyond obvious it was about sex couched in religious justification and biblical language. Just because one got numb to it, doesn't mean it wasn't shocking. It was shocking every-single-time it was brought up. Period.
3) The Book of Abraham. The moment I learned that it was a demonstrable fraud there was no turning back for me. When did I learn this? Age 30. Here. What does that tell you? It tells you that the Church has a really nefarious way of dealing with issues because what they taught me was so convoluted and murky that I never grasped that the simple truth was the papyri were simple funerary texts. What was so shocking about this? That the Church would and could perpetuate such a bold and blatant lie, and they did it so effectively that as a grown man I never picked up on it until someone smacked me squarely in the face with the simple truth... And it had to be done on an 'anti' website. My ignorance, their obfuscating, and the simple truth of the whole affair shocked me to the core. What a hateful sham the whole thing is...
4) Masturbation being taught that its evil. If there was one single thing that emotionally devastated me more than anything else, it was this vile teaching. As a teenager I hated my 'uncleanliness' and sinful nature... Simply because I couldn't/wouldn't control my desire to masturbate. To this day the shame that I felt embarrasses me and angers me that the child I was felt so worthless over such a harmless practice. What an Orwellian mindf*** they did to me. It took me YEARS to get over that even after I left.
I could go on and on... But the bottom line is that Church is evil. I know they think that they're not. I know they think that they're really good people. And that may be the case on some level, but they all perpetuate a massive and extremely damaging fraud known as Mormonism. They do this KNOWING on some level that the Mormon Church is a system made up of denial, lies, obfuscation, and self-deceit. That's not healthy. It is, in fact, shocking. The whole thing, the big pile of dog crap, is in of itself... Shocking.
|Subject:||The quality of Mormon clergy|
|Date:||Dec 31 10:23|
|Mormons frequently gush about their "unpaid" clergy -
but paid or unpaid, too many Mormon bishops, counselors, and higher-level
church officials exhibit a lack of basic suitability for the positions they
hold, may possess questionable character, and have undergone virtually no
real pastoral training.
Never mind "professional" clergy, Mormons must endure "priests" who do not merit even the characterization "amateur". And nothing illustrates this more readily than the almost complete lack of pastoral confidentiality in the Mormon church, or even the careful handling of personal information that a polite man-in-the street would offer to his fellows.
Only at their peril do Mormon members reveal private details of their lives to a Mormon official. The latter are free to discuss the information with any other "priesthood holder", and on occasion include even their wives or other members of the congregation in the circle. That is indeed shocking, not to mention unethical by any standard, and truly revolting.
|Subject:||The symbol of Satan's power and priesthoods...|
|Date:||Dec 31 13:54|
|is the green apron that is worn during the endowment
ceremony. It's never taken off, even when the ritual is over and you are
sitting in the Celestial Room, which is supposed to represent God's Kingdom.
I hated having to wear it over my beautiful wedding gown during the sealing ritual. Why do Mormons wear a symbol of Satan's authority and priesthood as part of their sacred clothing? Don't they realize what it represents? Am I the only one who ever paid attention to the actual words of the ceremony?
Learning this integral part of the ceremony creeped me out so much, I hesitated attending the temple for months afterward. Then, I started to study more about the origins of the temple ceremony. Thank you, Internet!!
I would also have to say that learning about Joseph's beginnings in polygamy and his sealing to Helen Mar Kimball was neck-in-neck with the temple apron. That whole "angel with a flaming sword" told him to take girls as young as 14 to bed or be killed, well, that just sounded too much like my pedophile Great Uncle to me. He used to quote bible scripture all the time as his basis for trying to sow his seed among as many young girls as he could.
I just can't imagine willingly allowing my daughter to be taken by a man 20+ years her senior in order to ensure my place in "heaven". These days, I'd be imprisoned for allowing that to happen to my child. I can't believe that was normal behavior and commonplace 170 years ago. Seems to me that times would have been MORE strict than now, not more liberal.
|Subject Part 2:||What shocks "normal" nevermos most about the morg?|
|Date:||Dec 19, 2007|
|Someone posted their letter about being banned from
their child's mormon wedding. Which other tidbits do we need to leak to the
1. That the purpose of morg geneology is to generate names for proxy dead-dunkings?
2. That mormons believe in multiple Mothers in Heaven?
3. That mormon underwear is believed to have magical powers? And that mormons worship it by not letting it touch the floor, only their butts?
4. That mormons preach against "gentiles" as being unworthy of blessings?
5. That mormons believe in a preexistence and war in Heaven?
What else does the voting public need to know?
|Subject:||Baptism for the dead, for sure|
|Date:||Dec 19 08:45|
|I was nevermo when a neighbor started love-bombing me.
Even though way back in my childhood I'd heard my church leaders sadly say
that Mormons weren't Christian, in my lonesome state I pushed those words to
the back of my mind while I enjoyed Neighbor's friendliness.
When I found out about the dead dunks, and that she really believed in them, it was the beginning of the end of my involvement, before I'd even really started!
But that's just me. Some people will shrug and say, "Catholics pray to dead people, what's the diff?" But it was what kept me weirded out just enough not to go very far into TSCC. If there'd been a Mormon candidate at that time, it would certainly have made me very unlikely to vote for him/her..
|Subject:||Without a doubt!!!!|
|Date:||Dec 19 10:50|
|As a TBM, I could always talk to my never-mo friends about all the weird stuff in the church as being related to the past...ie. polygamy, MMM, blood atonement, yadda yadda yadda...but trying to explain baptism for the dead was always an uncomfortable experience...I mean, lets face, it's weird, really really weird.|
|Subject:||Secret handshakes to get into heaven is a classic.|
|Date:||Dec 19 08:50|
|The voting public should also be told that more likely
than not, at sometime after they die- a Mormon will receive the secret
handshakes for them and have them sealed to their family- even if they were
victims of abuse!
Actually this is the first time I've thought of that, how disgusting.
|Subject:||Unable to attend temple marriages of relatives - children's, siblings... n/t|
|Subject:||That they all will become Gods of their own worlds. n/t|
|Subject:||I was shocked!|
|Date:||Dec 19 09:16|
|I was most shocked by how damaging , what I perceived
as merely a harmless, screwy little church with odd ideas, IS.
For me, blacks not getting the priesthood until 1978 would be the killer.
Next is the inequality of women shown by plural marriage still in the D&C, no priesthood, can't baptize, bless, etc
The Proclamation on the Family would show the anti-gay mindset and other prejudices
For your average fundy, many of the little things would freak them out. But for the more mainstream, they just laugh those off as harmless. Being banned from weddings of loved ones looks very cultlike, too.
|Date:||Dec 19 09:26|
|As a nevermo I found quite a few things shocking about
TSCC. All those mentioned in previous replies for starters. However , coming
to this board and reading the posts what has shocked me most is the total
control this cult has over your lives. I honestly don't think people out
there, in the real world, have any idea about this.
The "Magic" underwear causes a laugh or two, with quite a few people thinking it's a joke. The control isn't a joke , though, and I feel this needs to come out in the open.
To read post after post about people terrified to take off the underwear, terrified to tell parents they have left a church, scared to send in the resignation because the fear is so deeply entrenched.
Brainwashing at it's finest.
|Subject:||The way the morg thinks about rape and rape victims|
|Date:||Dec 19 10:38|
|Author:||picture perfect exmo|
|As a YW [young women] the counselor to the stake president assured me that they were less harsh to rape victims nowadays and should it ever happen to me, he would give me a priesthood blessing "to make it all right again".|
|Subject:||Your super secret temple name.|
|Date:||Dec 19 09:24|
|I recently told mine at a dinner party and one of the guys there now addresses me by that since I also told him the "mormon fact" that I would be called that by God... He will NOT be outdone by GOD.|
|Subject:||What shocked me most as a nevermo living in Salt Lake...|
|Date:||Dec 19 09:32|
|...was that BIC [born into the church: born in
the covenant] Mormons themselves do not know what
goes on in the Temple until they go there! I understood that the Temple
rituals and other stuff were kept secret from non-mo's but assumed that
Mormons grew up knowing all about their own religious rituals and what to
expect, just as Catholics, Protestants and Jews do, and that before joining
converts learned all this stuff as well.
"Milk before meat" for converts and "sacred, not secret" which really means "secret" for all members was a true shock to learn about. Mormons are not honest with their own members, let alone the rest of us!
|Subject:||For my nomo neighbor, it was Jeessus Jamies - Mormon Garments|
|Subject:||Re: What shocks "normal" nevermos most about the morg?|
|Date:||Dec 19 09:43|
|I agree, the control issue is the most shocking to me.
That people are afraid of their families and friends finding out they aren't
I have a question though. If mormon women can only get to the highest heaven by being sealed to her husband, how can a man have more than one wife in heaven? Where are the heavenly polygamists finding these single women to celestially procreate with to populate their planets?
|Subject:||Re: What shocks "normal" nevermos most about the morg?|
|Date:||Dec 19 11:14|
> I have a question though. If mormon women can only get to the highest heaven by being sealed to her husband, how can a man have more than one wife in heaven? Where are the heavenly polygamists finding these single women to celestially procreate with to populate their planets?
What all ways got me about polygamy on earth (JS and BY style) is how many men have to go without a wife so other men can have multiple wives! Given that men and women are, roughly, 50% each, If 50% or the men have 2 wives, then 50% go without. If 10% or the men have 10 wives, then 90% of men to without wives!! Only 3 out of every 100 men could have 33 wives like JS had! Those are bad odds if you ask me. I don't know why MEN would support a concept that would make it likely that they would NEVER have a wife (sex without sin).
|Subject:||Revering killing to get the brass plates- held up for admiration.|
|Date:||Dec 19 09:52|
|Wasn't that geneology? Killing someone to get the
family photo album or genealogy? You wouldn't do that now.
this story is held up for admiration and in training children. It is an accepted cultural archetype in mormon culture. [Killing of Laban in the Book of Mormon to get plates]
|Subject:||Personal Worthiness Interviews|
|Date:||Dec 19 10:10|
|All of the above seem to astonish my friends who have
never been LDS. I think we became de-sensitized to odd behavior and
When I described temple interviews and worthiness interviews to my friends, they were astonished that anyone would submit themselves to that process.
|Subject:||My nevermo friend was shocked . . .|
|Date:||Dec 19 10:12|
|when I told her about the invasive interviews I had to
submit to as a teenager and when seeking a temple recommend. She lived among
Mormons for 10 years and was never aware of that.
Most people would be shocked that a church would ask you questions about who you associate with, if you believe their church completely, if you follow all the rules, pay a full tithing, support their leaders as prophets, and then ask about your sexual purity. What legitimate church interrogates their members?
Furthermore, the fact that your answers would determine if you can be judged "worthy" to be sealed to your spouse or family is extremely controlling, because your answers will either result in rewards (the recommend, temple "blessings" and the respect of your church friends) or punishments (sometimes public shame when missing temple events, being banned for certain callings and ward participation, and threat of eternal punishment).
THIS is one of the most cult-like elements of the church.
A friend of mine told me that the most shocking thing to some people HE talked to was the fact that they ASSIGN you what ward to attend. They simply could not believe that a church wouldn't LET you decide which congregation you preferred to attend.
I thought that was odd when he first told me. No big deal, because I was raised thinking that was okay. But come to think of it, it IS rather strange. I know it's because they want to keep track of people in their ward boundaries and all, but THAT's controlling, too, isn't it. Other churches just let you come and go as you please, so why would they CARE where you live? You just go and volunteer if you want to participate.
Not only does the church tell you which building to attend, but what TIME, and they change that once a year. If you don't like going to church from 2-5 pm on a Sunday, it's just TOO BAD for you. Same thing with the mid-week activities.
|Subject:||What about the lack of confidentiality|
|Date:||Dec 19 10:21|
|when it comes to confessions? What would people think
of the fact that the bishop tells other people when someone has made an
infraction of the rules (even if they don't say exactly what the infraction
I was told about people within the Relief Society who were not allowed to participate because they had broken rules.
Another cult trait--using confessions to shame people.
|Subject:||No doubt about it: the underwear. Everyone I've ever talked to says that. nt|
|Subject:||Re: What shocks "normal" nevermos most about the morg?|
|Date:||Dec 19 10:27|
|I don't know how "normal" I am, but I have never been
a Mormon. What bothers me most, after being excluded from my daughter's
wedding, is the slimy, righteous, perky attitude of her new in-laws. So
fake. Some other things:
The fact that even life-time Mormons can't go to weddings if they are not paid up. Other churches strive to be welcoming and take in everyone, but to shut out your own over money is outrageous.
The mind control. This is what most angers me because my child has been taught not to think for herself anymore, to judge others harshly, and most of all, not to read anything about the church that isn't put out by the church. Organized willful ignorance. The opposite of our values and how she was raised.
We were told we would not see our grandchildren if we said anything against the church. There's those "family values" again. The first baby is on the way.
The fact that the church lies to it's own members to hide the past. Our son in law said Joseph Smith had only one wife. Is he lying to us, or did they lie to him? At the same time, the Family Search site has JS listed with 23 or 24 wives, right there to see if you look. I am saving that knowledge for a "teachable moment".
They have so much control over members that they dictate their underwear. That goes back to setting apart the ones who embraced polygamy with JS. If modern members knew that, they would give it a second thought.
To claim to be the only true church when it is so full of hypocrisy and lies. Do adult members ever get to the "meat"?
It is sad that so many people choose to stay under this yoke of control in the midst of a free country. I hate the hijacking of real spirituality. It seems like adult Mormons are made to remain childlike, dependent on other people to think for them in important ways.
I hope I haven't offended anyone here. This is an outsider's viewpoint.
|Date:||Dec 19 11:04|
|My heart aches for you!
I grew up in the Mormon church. I never thought anything about how the Temple makes those who can't attend feel.
I think excluding loved ones from weddings, is one of the worst things the church does. I'm so sorry your daughter has been sucked into this religion.
You know that your daughter and her in-laws probably talk about the day you will join the one and only true church.
I think the best thing you can do, is love them. At least your grandchildren will have some non members in the family. They will be able to see that you are normal and happy. I think this will be a good thing for them as they grow up.
|Subject:||heaven: 3 levels, polygamy there, men can have own planet|
|Date:||Dec 19 10:52|
|Author:||Fascinated in the Midwest|
|the Temple ceremony prior to 1991
[actually 1990], and play that
freaky "Hie to Kolob" song/video from YouTube...that'll send normal
Americans running away.
How about listing all the changes (back-pedaling) in a church that supposedly already has all the answers (the one true church) yet still is headed by a prophet, seer and revelator who apparently prophesizes, sees and reveals nothing??
|Subject:||For those who mentioned "control," when you are a part of it|
|Date:||Dec 19 11:02|
|you don't realize they are controlling you. It took me
YEARS of inactivity to finally see clear enough to realize that.
For Colorado Mom--I am sitting back and watching my daughter be TBM now. I was as TBM as she is back in my 20s--choosing to marry my gay husband to save him, giving up the love of my life for an RM and a temple marriage. Now my daughter thinks I'm just angry and won't choose to "see." She didn't know me then. I tested it to the best of my ability and the organization made promises it couldn't keep.
Once you are able to get away from the programming, then you can see how controlling they are. When you are in it, you HAVE NO CLUE. You think you are "free." What is the statement they make?
As for marriages--I always thought it was strange that they didn't allow those who are younger, not endowed--children, nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters--were not able to attend weddings. They don't even have a "choice" to be obedient, pay tithing, and go to the temple. Even if they changed things, younger, unendowed, but "righteous" members of the family aren't allowed to attend the wedding. I was only 17 months younger than my older sister. We were always close and confused as each other--but when she got married 5 years before I did, I wasn't allowed to go to her wedding.
One of my nonmormon friends says that even after knowing me for 30 years, I still tell him things that shock him about mormonism. I have no clue that I'm about to offer up info he has no clue about and I'll say something that seems really benign and I see the look of shock on his face.
Even those of us who have left don't get the full impact of how strange it is to someone who wasn't raised in it.
|Subject:||Re: What shocks "normal" nevermos most about the morg?|
|Date:||Dec 19 11:05|
|That people could fall for Joseph Smith's claims of finding gold plates.... "Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, Dumb, Dumb" (South Park).|
|Subject:||Re: My list of shocks|
|Date:||Dec 19 12:02|
|At the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, only Fundies believe in most of the things that you mentioned. There are millions of Christians, including most Catholics and liberal Protestants, who consider almost everything you mentioned to be a myth. I attended a fairly liberal Mormon ward growing up and I wasn't taught a lot of those things even there. If you are going to comment on Christian beliefs, know what they are. BTW, the immaculate conception and the virgin birth are two separate things. The virgin birth states that Christ was born of a virgin. Most, but not all Christians believe that. The immaculate conception is a Catholic belief that Mary, although conceived the same way as everyone else, does not have the tainst of original sin.|
|Subject:||Re: You are right|
|Date:||Dec 19 12:23|
|It seems nearly impossible for former TBMs to
understand that the world is not as black and white as they were taught. I
used to call this thinking in myself as "seeing a missionary behind every
I will always have a certain distrust that I see as a legacy of Mormonism. Learning to trust and to see with an increasingly expanding and less judgmental vision is the work of a lifetime for me.
|Subject:||worthiness interviews for kids|
|Date:||Dec 19 11:12|
|I have always been fascinated by the varieties of religious thought and believed myself well-informed on Mormonism. But with all the reading I've done, this board is the only place I've heard about bishops grilling kids about the most personal aspects of their lives. As a parent, I find it appalling, and I think the average member of the public would be horrified to know about it.|
|Subject:||The willingness to break up families.|
|Date:||Dec 19 11:30|
|The doctrines are weird, but all religions believe
things that seem weird to outsiders although the list seems a bit longer
when it comes to Mormonism.
The thing that always shocked me at first is how willingly (seemingly intelligent) people hand over control of their lives to church leaders without question and follow counsel that makes no sense. I am dismayed at the efforts to present a shiny, happy image and meet the impossible standards, even when inside you're falling apart.
But the thing that continues to shock me the most is the shunning of family and the willingness of TSCC to break up families.
Colorado Mom's story is not unique. I know a women who has never seen her five year old grandchild - even though that child lives in the same town. Why? She is exmo and her son (a devout TBM) refuses to have anything to do with her. This is not a crazy or dangerous person. She is a great grandmother to her other grandchildren. I have heard similar stories many times, but it still astonishes me.
|Subject:||The fact that anyone would be a member at all!|
|Date:||Dec 19 12:14|
|Author:||Janae In Mich.|
|I remember telling my boyfriend (a nevermo) about
Joseph Smith, polygamy, temple rituals, extortionist tithing policy to get
into the afterlife, machismo priesthood holders with kids I babysat who half
the time chased ME around the house--and, he couldn't believe ANY of it!
Until he met my family. He was, OMG--it's all real. You weren't making this up.
WTF?? What nutjob would make it up??? Well, Joseph Smith did, but he was a certified narcissist philanderer nutjob of the first order.
|Subject:||Pimple faced "priests" and "elders." n/t|
|Subject:||Shocked nevermos. Clueless Converts.|
|Date:||Dec 19 12:24|
|I mean "clueless" in the nicest possible way. I was
one myself, after all.
I'll pass over for now all the things that I didn't know before or during and only learned after (mostly here at RfM).
But what the heck Cheryl?!!! What is this:
> 2. That mormons believe in multiple Mothers in Heaven?
This I have never heard or read about.
There is one Heavenly Father, one Heavenly Mother*.
*According to mo doctrine.
|Subject:||I will tell you what shocked my nevermo children the most.|
|Date:||Dec 30 16:06|
|In an unfortunate period of my life, I decided to
return to the church. I thought that all my bad decisions and the pain I was
experiencing at the time was the result of my unfaithfulness.
I had remained a TBM even though I was a jackmo since my teens and married a nevermo.
I saw the bishop of our ward, who an inactive Jack Mormon, continue to drink and smoke while his wife (my Primary teacher and also my Kindergarten teacher) attended without him, do a 280 and not only start attending church, but get called as the bishop.
I figured I could do likewise. Sow my seeds and then repent later when the time felt right.
So, in the midst of some pretty awful marital dischord, I separated from my DH and called the missionaries to come give the discussions to my children.
At the time, my kids were 12, 9, and 5. The mishies came and I think it was the second discussion when they brought out the flannel board. They proceeded to explain how when non-Mormons die, they go to Spirit Prison. There, they must convert to Mormonism if they want to go live with HF.
My oldest caught on the quickest. He asked the mishies why someone who was Catholic or Jewish all their lives had to denounce their faiths and become Mormon if they wanted to get out of Spirit Prison.
Luckily, my insanity was temporary, and I realized going back to the cult was the least healthy thing I could do. My kids agreed, as, by the fourth discussion, the mishies already wanted to set dates for their baptisms.
They did not want to become Mormons, and I realized that I no longer wanted to be one.
And a Child Shall Lead Them,
|Subject:||Re: What shocks you the most? - more material requested|
|Date:||Dec 30 17:58|
|Where to begin?
As a nevermo, I'm continually Freaked-Out-of-My-Socks by how much you guys seem to obsess over "normal" things.
I mean, everybody I know really doesn't have any problems with sleeveless tops, backless dresses, tattoos or multiple earrings. My friends who don't drink coffee are regarded as STRANGE for that fact.
Most people I know really like a nice wine with dinner. The people I know who are religious pick which church they want to attend AND which service they will attend (AND THEY HAVE A CHOICE!) Most people I know have at least one favorite bar. EVERYONE I know chooses their own style/brand of underwear. (Believe me, the women discuss thongs, and the guys discuss boxers vs. briefs vs. commando.)
None of my friends have living rooms that are decorated by pictures of Religious Buildings. (Amongst us "Gentiles", the closest you will get to that is the Nativity Scene at Xmas.) Most people I know have no problem 'ditching' church for a lazy Sunday in bed.
EVERYBODY I know would be REALLY REALLY upset to learn that Oral Sex is a no-no. Most women I know would be really pissed off about the polygamy in the afterlife thing. EVERY woman I know would be apoplectic to learn that she should be subservient to her husband - just because he has a penis. Everybody I know would be appalled to learn that masturbation is REALLY AWFUL. (We don't go around discussing it, but it's an excepted fact that it occurs. We regard it as normal.)
We can't wrap our minds around the fact that your life is all consumed by the Church.
I guess the Jesus Jammies are the hardest things for us to accept. That and the total mind F**K that you all go thru daily.
|Subject:||Re: What shocks you the most? - more material requested|
|Date:||Dec 30 18:22|
|So much lying by the leaders of the church....those
called to defend the faith. Why the lying? Are they embarrassed by their own
teachings? Do they want us to KNOW the church is true or KNOW what the
church teaches? You decide. Can’t the one true God of the universe find any
leaders with a little more backbone to spread HIS gospel?
Also, because I haven’t seen it mentioned yet, the tragic suffering of women due to the spiritual abuse of this man made church. Sure, God loves women....if you shut up & stop complaining & crying about how miserable you are living polygamy.
I read ssoooo many diaries & journals of private desperation. These women were so sad & hopeless & even suicidal. Little girls watching the agony of their mothers & being groomed to live this way. Being taught that God would only love them IF they entered into this unnatural relationship (more like father/daughter)......calling it a marriage.
Now that I have read many papers written by the early leaders, I understand the need for Prozac among Mormon women. Unlike what we have been taught today, that we are equals, the early leaders really had a different understanding of a women’s role. Do the research & you will find calloused men who cared little for the feelings or tender hearts of women. They were often brutal in their dealings with these Mormon women. Women back then took it because they were taught (by these men) that this was their place in life...to be subservient & obey the commands of their husbands!!! This is what God wanted & THEY MUST OBEY or GO TO HELL!!! I laugh now when I read D&C 132 & realize how brutal God is toward Emma’s womanly feelings. Also, how God sees fit to let Emma know if SHE commits adultery, SHE will go to hell....where is the same council for the men???
I remember one surprised women who had lived in polygamy all her life. She was shocked to find outside of Utah, older couples where the husband attended to his OLD wife with love & devotion. She had never seen anything like it in Utah. She had only seen older women being discarded for a new, younger wife & being told to get over it. She had been taught that it was not natural for a man to be fond of only one women....especially an old, useless woman past her childbearing years.
I sat through many R.S. lessons telling me how happy I should be for being a Mormon women. I remember one friend crying at the end of her lesson & bearing her testimony that she hoped she had the strength to share her husband when the time came....because she loved him ssooo much....sob, sob, sob. I looked around the room & there was not one dry eye. This was happiness? I was indoctrinated out the ying/yang about how I should be SO happy. This is exactly what those polygamist women were taught....over & over & over.... Be happy, you are lucky, you are God’s chosen, you are a Mormon!! Woo Hoo....lucky you....now stop feeling sorry for yourself, dammit, NOW!!! Or we will take your children away from you & send you out of Utah!!! Now go milk my cow ‘cause I want my breakfast!!! Thus spake Brigham Young.
The problem we see today with Prozac among the Mormons, IMHO, is that they are not really happy! Fancy that! Even though our leaders try everything they can to TEACH us that we should be happy....there is an underlying doctrine among the Mormons that women’s happiness is really irrelevant in the scheme of things. This is a very subtle idea that runs through out Mormon doctrine when you really get into it...but hard to define.
For example, Brigham Young taught that Mormons DO NOT believe in Romantic love. So any woman who desires this would be sinning & need to overcome this. This was commonly taught to the women of this era. Fast forward to today & the underpinnings of our beloved gospel, silently, from the grave so to speak, has left it’s mark. Mormon women were indoctrinated to marry for God, regardless of love or personal happiness. As time has passed, we find many women who bought into this idea & now are in unhappy marriages....but dare not complain because somewhere along the way they were taught not to. Somewhere along the way, this idea is ingrained in the Mormon female....be it ever so subtle.
As we have moved away from living polygamy, we have still clung onto it as an ideal, to be lived in heaven by those worthy..... An ideal that reprimands women for desiring any personal, private, loving relationship with her husband. Today, as the church lies through it’s teeth & claims polygamy was never considered “thee” most important revelation given to Joseph Smith, it continues to subtly instruct women that a “worthy” priesthood male is going to bring her the happiness she desires.....because someday she will be able to be his plural wife in heaven. (Of course, they never tell the whole story anymore, which makes it all the more confusing as these Mormon gal’s seek righteousness over love when looking for a marriage partner).
I have lived among the saints all my life & yes, I have seen a few caring husbands! However, these are the exception. In my experience, I see Mormon men treat their wives with disrespect. They ignore them, use them, take advantage of them & do these things knowing their wives will most likely take it. A Mormon woman is conditioned to fear divorce more than anything! Lose a husband & she loses her chances to be with God in the next life. Who needs anymore pressure than that to put up & shut up?
I am appalled by the evil, unnatural practices attributed to a loving God in the Mormon faith. I still cringe when I read the heartbreaking stories of modern polygamists. I shake my head in wonder as the current leaders accept no responsibility of the child abuse, poverty & pain these polygamists live in. DO THE RESEARCH......these modern polygamist ARE here today because of the teachings of Joseph Smith. Period. End of sentence.
Well, that’s a start of what shocks me.....
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church www.exmormon.org