| Subject: | Worst bits of "Miracle of Forgiveness" |
| Date: | Feb 06, 2008 |
| Author: | nomoreee |
| Note: | "Miracle of Forgiveness" was written by the Mormon Prophet Spencer. W. Kimball in the 1970's. It has been and continues to be a widely read book by Mormons. |
| I hear that "Miracle of Forgiveness" is one of the most awful books ever put forth by an LDS leader. I can't bear myself to read it, but I have relatives who love it and would like to know a little bit about the content. What sort of things are said in it? What's the meanest, nastiest, or most thoughtless thing preached in it, in your opinion? |
| Subject: | Such a loving spirit he was indeed. |
| Date: | Feb 06 21:50 |
| Author: | StationaryTraveler |
| Not only rape victims, but also incest victims: "Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." - The Sick And Perverted False Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness |
| Subject: | Actually, you SHOULD read it! |
| Date: | Feb 06 22:30 |
| Author: | NumLock |
| It's draconian. The BEST advice I found in that book
was that napping on Sunday was in the spirit of "keeping the sabbath day
holy". It's also proof that a living prophet trumps the dead ones. After SWK died, I rarely heard the book referred to. You'd probably have to get a used copy of TMoF these days. |
| Subject: | Re: Worst bits of "Miracle of Forgiveness" |
| Date: | Feb 06 22:33 |
| Author: | wine country girl |
| Everything between the front cover and the back. (I hope this doesn't cut your thread short) The book should actually be titled "It's a Miracle to be Forgiven*." *in the Mormon Church |
| Subject: | or maybe "It's a Miracle Jesus Even Likes You" n/t |
| Subject: | Oh, NumLock, it is STILL around as my daughter took |
| Date: | Feb 06 22:35 |
| Author: | cl2 |
| an institute class on it last trimester at college.
She came and asked myself and her father if we had a copy because she didn't
want to purchase one on her limited budget. It even comes in paperback form
now--which is what she bought. The part I had memorized was the part about homosexuals--that masturbating contributes to homosexuality AND that the homosexual should (something like) "knock at the door until their knuckles are bleeding . . . " can't remember the wording. |
| Subject: | Re: Oh, NumLock, it is STILL around as my daughter took |
| Date: | Feb 06 22:59 |
| Author: | NumLock |
| Please try to help your daughter understand how
emotionally damaging the precepts of that book can be. Just ask DD if it makes sense that she should sacrifice her life before sacrificing her virginity. And I don't mean a case of rape or incest. What about to a boy that she really loves, or possibly is engaged to? Would that make a difference to her? Oh, and was he writing as a man or as the Prophet of the Lord? Is there any "thus saith the Lord" in that book? I'm angry that that book is even still in-print. |
| Subject: | It is available on Amazon |
| Date: | Feb 07 03:59 |
| Author: | Jim Huston |
| I was sent another copy (at one time I had 4) from my
loving family when I left the Mormon Church. Here is my review from Amazon: >The general theme of this book is that you are never worthy. You are never good enough. It is better to die than to have the appearance of sin. It is no wonder that where Mormon populations are highest (Utah, Idaho, Arizona) the use of anti-depressants is three times the national average. Read this book if you want to feel bad about yourself or if you feel the need for self flagellation. I found nothing uplifting in this book. |
| Subject: | Both her father and I tried to say a few things |
| Date: | Feb 07 10:25 |
| Author: | cl2 |
| about it when she took the class (and several times
when the subject came up during the time of the class). She goes silent and
won't discuss things that she doesn't want to hear about the church. Since I was trying to "save" my gay husband when I was first introduced to this book, I read and reread the parts about gays and I always hoped that THIS TIME when I read it, some answer for the situation would jump off the page at me--that I wasn't picking up what the message was. Just like the blessings I got from the bishop--I'd fast and pray and think "Okay, now I've done enough to finally get the answer" and the bishop would give me yet another blessing so I could handle this situation and NOTHING. All the praying in the world and the heavens were slammed shut. The worst thing about the book is supposedly it has the ANSWERS (not just the let's beat them up)--but it has NO ANSWERS--none whatsoever. Just another promise they make and can't keep. |
| Subject: | Re: Worst bits of "Miracle of Forgiveness" |
| Date: | Feb 06 22:59 |
| Author: | KolobSlurm |
| Did he miss anything? I don't remember any mention of
white shirts or only one pair of earrings. "Some Mormons insist that the book's teachings on repentance only apply to what the Mormon culture perceives as big, heinous sins (such as sexual impurity, a sin which Kimball particularly emphasizes). However, Kimball is clear on the range of sins in his purview: 'Murder, adultery, theft, cursing, unholiness in masters, disobedience in servants, unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, disobedience to husbands, lack of natural affection, high-mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double-tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant-breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appetite, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block; and in our modern language, masturbation, petting, fornication, adultery, homosexuality; and every sex perversion, every hidden and secret sin and all unholy and impure practices.' (p. 25)" http://www.mormonwiki.org/Miracle_of_Forgiveness |
| Subject: | I'm toast. Total, complete toast. |
| Date: | Feb 07 00:23 |
| Author: | JoAnn |
| Is there ANYBODY out there who has managed to live to the age of - say, TEN, without having committed at least one thing from that incredible list? |
| Subject: | Re: I'm toast. Total, complete toast. |
| Date: | Feb 07 07:30 |
| Author: | confused |
| You are not toast if you'll just pay your tithing and volunteer all of your time. Make sure you pay on gross though. |
| Subject: | Re: Worst bits of "Miracle of Forgiveness" |
| Date: | Feb 07 15:29 |
| Author: | Vstall |
| ...and where does ripping off millions of people of their time and money fit into this list of sins? |
| Subject: | Clamor? Clamor is a sin? |
| Date: | Feb 07 16:56 |
| Author: | Deenie, the dreaded single adult |
| Main Entry: 2clamor Function: verb Inflected Form(s): clam·ored; clam·or·ing \ˈklam-riŋ, ˈkla-mər-iŋ\ Date: 14th century intransitive verb 1 : to make a din 2 : to become loudly insistent <clamored for his impeachment> transitive verb 1 : to utter or proclaim insistently and noisily 2 : to influence by means of clamor Okay, everybody at the football game--you're all DOOMED, due to CLAMOR... Also--foolishness? Instability? (Oops, I tripped--oh, heck; there goes the CK...) Inhospitality? ("She didn't serve any crackers with that cheese---she's OUT!!) I never really thought about a lot of things in that list. It's a pretty darn funny list, if you really read every word... |
| Subject: | For me, it was the part where it said... (slight edit) |
| Date: | Feb 06 23:29 |
| Author: | Deenie, the dreaded single adult |
| ...that even *thinking* about a sin was just as bad as
doing it. Holy cow--how can you escape that? You know, silly thoughts that you never, ever planned to carry out--like, sitting at the bake sale, with a pile of money in front of you, and you think, "Boy, what I could do with an extra $150..." You never REALLY planned to take it; not even one dime of it--but SWK says you're already guilty, because it crossed your mind. I felt guilty for things that I'd never done and never, EVER planned to do--but, there you have it. "Sing a hymn, sister! Keep those impure thoughts out of your mind!" *No one* can control every single thought in their mind, 24/7. It's a ridiculous idea. And, just in case that isn't enough, there are the "sins of omission." Yes, even though you've done nothing wrong, you are in deep doo-doo because you didn't do ENOUGH right!! I believe that this is also the book that says it is better for a woman/girl to DIE, trying to fight off a rapist, rather than to "lose her virtue" by being raped. Not even funny. At all. The whole book is like a giant lose-lose proposition, prompting many to comment that it should have been called, "It's a Miracle if You're Ever Forgiven." I agree. |
| Subject: | I threw that book away. I only kept one quote. It was the poem: |
| Date: | Feb 06 23:37 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| As a Man Thinketh Chapter Eight Thoughts are Things I hold it true that thoughts are things; They're endowed with bodies and breath and wings; And that we send them forth to fill The world with good results, or ill. That which we call our secret thought Speeds forth to earth's remotest spot, Leaving its blessings or its woes Like tracks behind it as it goes. We build our future thought by thought, For good or ill, yet know it not. Yet, so the universe was wrought. Thought is another name for fate; Choose, then, thy destiny and wait, For love brings love and hate brings hate. ---Henry Van Dyke I have no problem with the verse from Proverbs that was quoted: "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." BUT.... Kimball used this poem on the topic of "THOUGHT SINS" That is a clear distortion! |
| Subject: | Sorry SusieQ#1, I can't agree with you on the Proverbs quote... |
| Date: | Feb 07 04:40 |
| Author: | anonymous nom |
| I remember when I was little, my dad for some reason,
even though I was only like 9, said, "If you lust after a woman in your
heart you have already committed adultery." It freaked me out for years! I remember right after he said that that I though, "I'll never like a girl for as long as I live!" Matthew 5:28 pretty much worked. I'm as repressed as a dirty-kneed, head-banging Mosqueito. Anyhow, how does this tie into Proverbs 23:7, you ask? Well, the passage is just not true. It actually causes severe religious OCD and could be one of the most destructive scriptures I can think of. It also brings horrible thoughts into someone's mind and then makes them linger. Have a thought about harming a child? A normal person would just think, "Well, of course I'd never do that... Just because I thought of it, doesn't mean I am it." But not a religious believer in Proverbs 23:7 with OCD. Have a thought about harming a child? Well, according to Proverbs 23:7, now you are one. Go spend a couple of days or months or even years brooding and ruminating on that and other topics while you beat yourself up mentally and conjure up worse and worse possibilities and imagine foul imagery in cog-dis fear that you might actually do it. I broke free from this cycle when I ditched religion as fact. No more Prozac. Sorry to call you out, but I just had to pipe up on this specific subject, since it hits particularly close to home for me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity One other thing, less organized thought but also a valid point... Quentin Tarantino, Steven King, and Clint Eastwood clearly think about killing alot, but they clearly aren't killers. I make sculptures of Aliens, draw pictures of biblical figures, and make animations of strange creatures and violent and surreal situations. But none of those things are part of my daily reality or "who I am." I've thought about maybe getting some revenge on someone. But I didn't, and won't. I'm not a murderer. My dad used this scripture to rebuke the content of my art. He claims Ozzy Osbourne, Eddie Van Halen, Steven King, Chris Carter, Elton John, and many others have sold their souls to the devil to make their evil art. He has suggested I am on the path to being in that same category. Sorry, it's a shit 1984 quote from a shit 900 BC testament. |
| Subject: | Re: Sorry SusieQ#1, I can't agree with you -- I didn't interpret it that way. |
| Date: | Feb 07 10:32 |
| Author: | SusieQ#1 |
| Very interesting. I never interpreted that Proverbs
verse in that manner. I was thinking along the line of the power of our thoughts as in: If I think I am OK, I am. If I think I am not OK, I am not. If I think I can, I can. If I think I can't, I can't. The old adage: If you take the T out of can't, you can! Thoughts are powerful, they are the chemical basis of our life, so to speak: our behavior, actions,feelings,emotions etc. They can be positive or negative. Both powerful. Yes, our thoughts can go to levels of actually acting out criminal behavior. It happens a lot. I don't know the stats, but people are murdered by other people every minute in the world. I took the scripture to be about how we think about ourselves as a clue to the positive power of the mind. And, how we can sabotage ourselves by our own thinking. |
| Subject: | That one really *f'd* with me when I was younger!! |
| Date: | Feb 07 00:24 |
| Author: | Christy219 |
| Because I "knew" this, I seemed to be unable to control my mind at church events. I'd be sitting there listening to a baby be blessed and start thinking about sex or something like that! I couldn't help it because it was like my mind knew I wasn't supposed to think that way and I just knew that my transgressions of thought were so evil that I was going straight to hell. I spent a lot of time worrying about the things I thought of in my mind, and that just snowballed into making me think more bad things. This really upset me a lot when I was younger. |
| Subject: | Well, he got that from the Bible, Deenie. |
| Date: | Feb 07 06:59 |
| Author: | anon |
| The "thinking equals doing" is straight from the Old and New Testaments. |
| Subject: | Yes, but it was not written out there in such grisly detail... |
| Date: | Feb 07 09:46 |
| Author: | Deenie, the dreaded single adult |
| From reading the Bible, I felt more like it meant that
you should be pure-intentioned. You should think and behave in the same
way... It never read, to me, that just thinking, "Oh, I want to smack him!" about someone you were angry with was going to send you to Outer Perdition for eternity. SWK made it sound that way. In his book, there was, basically, no way out. I was about as totally straight-arrow as I could be, and I felt like I was doomed! I can only imagine how someone might have felt if they'd ever shoplifted, cheated on a test, or, heaven forbid, engaged in fornication!! It was truly a gruesome book, even for those Molly Mormons and Peter Priesthoods among us. |
| Subject: | Re: MOF |
| Date: | Feb 06 23:57 |
| Author: | Hap E. Heretic |
| Just to give you some idea of what this book is like,
consider my mother's answer when I'd asked if she'd read it. "I tried to, but it made me feel so guilty, I couldn't finish it". Bear in mind, my mother is extremely prudish; she can't even joke about sex in general. She's 78 years old, and about as devoted to the LDS church as one could imagine. Personally, I found the book extremely overbearing and shame-based. It is NOT the place to look if one is seeking spiritual solace or comfort. In the last years of his life, SWK even admitted he regretted taking such a harsh stance on immorality and homosexuals in his book. If you want to draw your own conclusions, check it out yourself. But, please understand, the text contradicts the merciful title again and again. |
| Subject: | I was ordered to read this piece of sorry trash as a new convert |
| Date: | Feb 07 00:29 |
| Author: | JoAnn |
| when I told the bishop that I was unable to forgive my
abusive ex for all the hurt he had caused me, over the years. The book didn't help. I prayed for two-flipping-years, morning and night, on my knees, to be able to forgive. Didn't happen. I don't know if I have "forgiven" him even now. But after seeing him last fall at our son's wedding, looking OLD and alone (his witchy wife wouldn't attend), I've been able to let the whole issue go. It just doesn't matter any more. Maybe that's almost as good as forgiving. |
| Subject: | Re: Worst bits of "Miracle of Forgiveness" |
| Date: | Feb 07 01:01 |
| Author: | queen bee |
| But the man was tragic. Repressed, projecting, closeted homosexual most likely. |
| Subject: | Let us not forget the visit of Cain |
| Date: | Feb 07 01:07 |
| Author: | johnnyutah |
| Cain, of Cain and Abel fame, appears to a pioneer on a
horse. He is described as taller than the guy on the horse, covered in hair,
and tells the guy he has walked the Earth for years. He then vanishes
suddenly. Yes, accoring to Mormons, Cain is bigfoot. It ranks right up there with the stories of Zelph. |
| Subject: | Re: Worst bits of "Miracle of Forgiveness" |
| Date: | Feb 07 01:46 |
| Author: | apastasea |
| I have to admit that I have been lurking from time to
time on this site over the past few years. I left the church 2 years ago
after living it fully for 28 years. It has been traumatizing and wonderful
to be free from all of the bullsh@# that I was taught. I lived a life of
shame, feeling as though I would never be good enough. Much of this I
attribute directly to this frickin' piece of crap book. My husband and I
dated for 6 years...Six years with-out having sex! SERIOUSLY! I am a very
sexual person and it was truly a miracle that I made it to the temple a
virgin. Lord knows I wanted it BAD (sorry for the over share here folks!)
I don't know where my copy of "The Miracle of Forgiveness is, but I read it about 6 times cover to cover...It was highlighted in every color imaginable with notes in every margin. YUCK! It was required reading after a night of "heavy petting" or "Levi lovin'" thanks to my dear, sympathetic Bishop. Sometimes I wonder where all of my guilt comes from!? Hmmm... As for my favorite part of the book...That would have to be the section on Omission. When I discovered all of the factual, historical information kept from me by the church I was seriously pissed! Hello?...Can anyone say "Sin of Omission"?! Part of the truth is not the truth, it is a manipulation! Spencer was right about that. It is too bad that the church is phony and it's leaders are either total hypocrites or completely ignorant. I just can't stand it. I could go on for days, but I will spare you the rant. Anyone want to have a bonfire? I bet you I can find my copy! =) |
| Subject: | Re: Worst bits of "Miracle of Forgiveness" |
| Date: | Feb 07 03:36 |
| Author: | UK Apostate |
| I just read that list of *sins*.... OMFG?? How did incontinence make it onto the list? How is a medical problem a sin? I suppose they need to make sure that all of the doddering old GAs have something to feel guilty about too, can't have them feeling all superior until they get their second anointing. I guess incontinence is ok once you are guaranteed godhood?? |
| Subject: | Hate this book |
| Date: | Feb 07 04:06 |
| Author: | wendolene |
| I can't even begin to describe the incredibly negative
impact this hateful book had on my life. I read it when I was 15 and quickly
concluded that there was NO WAY I would ever make it back to the presence of
God. I (horror of horrors!) had masturbated and knew I could never confess
to my Bishop and therefore could never be forgiven. I was too ashamed and
thought I would be excommunicated and everyone would know the terrible thing
I had done. I went to BYU thinking I had lied to get my ecclesiastical
endorsement. Years of counseling, a suicide attempt and two hospitalizations later I discovered the truth about the church. It saved my life. But I don't know if I can ever forgive SWK and the idiots who still reference and teach from this book. The hell I lived through for the last 20 years started when I read the MoF. |
| Subject: | When I was young I was terrified of going to the doctor because ... |
| Date: | Feb 07 09:40 |
| Author: | Mad |
| ... I was afraid that he could tell that I was
masturbating and he was in the Bishopric in a neighboring ward! Suppose I
had a serious illness but was affraid to see any doctor? I was terrified because I thought that Masturbation was next to murder in seriousness! And that list of "Unforgivable Sins" - it was all guarenteed failure. SWK's book is about as emotionally damaging as Mormonism gets. |
| Subject: | ALL YOUR SINS were pilled BACK ON if you repeated the SIN |
| Date: | Feb 07 11:34 |
| Author: | Anubis |
| I just remembered the same thing. I assumed that the
doctor could tell I was pulling my chain. And in one instance I do remember
the doctor figuring it out because of the tell tale signs (things sticking
to underpants). I said something about nocturnal emissions. (sound
familiar?) Anyway the doctor calls my mom in and kicks me out. I still don't know why or for what reason. This GUILT was all from church leaders, I had not even read the book yet. Then I had to read that damn book for a court of lovin punishment and take notes. I had never been so freaked out about anything until this. The one thing that stuck out in the book was that all your sins were pilled back on you of you repented but repeated the act. It's not even a no win situation it's a NO WAY situation. Anubis |
| Subject: | Damned Book (obviously, there will be cursing) |
| Date: | Feb 07 06:44 |
| Author: | Lavender |
| I've read that book so, so, so, SO many times.
So.many.times. When I was in the singles ward, and the bishop found out that my eventual husband and I had had sex, I went through a "court of love" and was disfellowshipped and he was excommunicated (having gone through the temple and about to leave on his mission). My instructions on getting back into the church's good graces were loo-oo-ooong, but the most damaging of all of the instructions was this: I was to read the Miracle Of Forgiveness. I was to read it all the way through until I no longer felt guilt. If I felt guilt at ANY point during the book, then Heavenly Father had not forgiven me yet, and I was to read it again. Rinse and repeat. I would know that Heavenly Father had forgiven me when I could read the entire book and feel no guilt, but feel peace and elation. Do you have ANY fucking idea how many times I read that piece of shit?? More than I have fingers (and probably toes). I was rerererererererererererere*re*reading it when I started researching the church. The number that this book does on a believer is nearly unmeasurable. I was convinced everything I did was terrible. That I was the BIGGEST fucking failure ever. My bishop would ask me if I was *still* reading it, and then he'd give me a look, telling me how little I was worth if Heavenly Father STILL hadn't forgiven me because I STILL hadn't felt peace. I've saved that book, along with the Boyd Packer pamphlet for young men, and a set of garments in the original packing and out of the packaging, so that if the morg ever removes these things (as they've done in the past, polygamy comes to mind) I have proof that these things existed. So I rooted out the MOF and flipped through the pages to see if I could find anything *special*. Ah yes, here we go. . . "One factor contributing to immodesty and the breakdown of moral values is the modern dress work by our young women and their mothers. I see young women, and some older ones, on the streets wearing shorts. This is not right. The place for women to wear shorts is in the rooms, in their own homes, in their own gardens. I see some of our LDS mothers, wives, and daughters wearing dresses extreme and suggestive in style. Even some fathers encourage it. I wonder if our sisters realize the tempation they are flaunting before men when they leave their bodies partly uncovered or dress in tight-fitting, body-revealing, form-fitting sweaters." - MOF, page 226, 1969 edition "A woman is most beautiful when her body is properly clothed and her sweer face adorned with her lovely hair, She needs no more attractions. Then she is at her best and men will love her for it. Men will not love her more because her neck is bare. Girls, if the young man is descent and worthy of you, he will love you the more when you are properly dressed, Of course, if he is a vicious man he will have other ideas." - MOF, page 226, 1969 edition "This perversion is defined as 'sexual whether men or women. It is a sin of the ages. It was present in Israel's wandering days as well as after and before. It was tolerated by the Greeks. It was prevelant in decaying Rome. The ancients cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are symbols of wretched wickedness more especially related to this perversion, as the incident of Lot's visitors indicates. So degenerate had Sodom become that not ten righteous people could be found, and the Lord had to destroy it. But the revolting practice has persisted. As far back as Henry the Eighth this vice was referred to as 'the abominable and detestable crime against nature'. Some of our own statutes have follwed that apt and descriptive wording." - MOF, page 78, 1969 edition [on homosexuality] "Sometimes not heavenly but earthly parents get the blame, Granted that certain conditions make it easier for one to become a pervert, the second Article of Faith teaches that a man will be punished for his own sins. " - MOF, page 85, 1969 edition "There are sins which are so serious that we know on no forgiveness for them... There are also sins which approach the unforgivable ones in seriousness but seem to come in the category of the forgivable. These are the diabolical crimes of sexual impurity. In varied form they run from aberrations involving self-abuse, sex stimulation, and self-pollution to abhorrent and unnatural practices involving others. Where name or unnamed in the scriptures or the spoken word, any sexual act or practice which is 'unnatural' or unauthorized is a sin." -MOF, page 61, 1969 edition "In an interview with a young man in Mesa, Arizona, I found him only a little sorry he had committed adultery but not sure that he wanted to cleanse himself. After long deliberations in which I seemed to make little headway against his rebellious spirit I finally said 'Goodbye, Bill, but I warn you, don't break a speed limit, be careful what you eat, take no chance on your life. Be careful in traffic for YOU MUST NOT DIE BEFORE THIS MATTER IS CLEARED UP. DON'T YOU DARE DIE.' I quoted this scripture: Wherefore if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged on their works... and cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.' (1 ne. 15:33-34) ... He must not die until he has made his peace with God. He must be careful and not have an accident." MOF, pages 146-7, 1969 edition Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, doesn't it? |
| Subject: | Re: Worst bits of "Miracle of Forgiveness" |
| Date: | Feb 07 07:15 |
| Author: | TBM? (and questioning lots) |
| MoF was quoted heavily in the 'Teaching of President
Kimball' manual used in Relief Society and P/hood. And it's still a favourite (although totally inappropriate) book for Bishops and other leaders to give to members who have strayed. At a ward disciplinary council, our Bishop wanted to give the book to the member in question. I managed to convince him to lend the person my copy of 'Believing in Christ' (S. Robinson) that builds up on the doctrine of grace, rather than guilt. Speaking to them afterwards, they really enjoyed the read. I've never liked MoF- it seems to encapsulate everything that is toxic about the Church. |
| Subject: | Another piece of wisdom from SWK |
| Date: | Feb 07 10:08 |
| Author: | Re-Poster |
| Question: There is so much human suffering in the world today. Why doesn’t the Church launch campaigns to end world hunger and ease the sufferings of the needy? Edward L. Soper, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, Sept. 1982, 30 Edward L. Soper, Welfare Services area director, Southeastern United States. It is encouraging to sense the concern for the unfortunate that this question reflects. I’m sure many readers share that concern. In addressing your question, I want you to understand that the greatest tool for easing suffering is the gospel itself. Conversion to the gospel so speeds the recovery and progress of those who live its precepts that miracles—temporal as well as spiritual—are wrought in the lives of people. It was this truth that led President Spencer W. Kimball to remark in 1974: “I remember as I went through the streets of Calcutta, seeing the great numbers of starving people. … I remember being on the fifth floor of a big hotel in Calcutta and looking down on the back street where these people in their meager clothing were lying on the sidewalks … with no place to go and nothing to eat and no shelter. … I saw the rain come, and I saw these people move back a little farther under a little shelter. I saw [the people in Peru] suffer, and we were upbraided by one of the press one day for not taking care of all these poor people. ‘Why did we travel the world and do all these things and did not take care of these people,’ he asked. I said, ‘That is something you don’t understand. If these people would accept the gospel of Christ, the program is provided and they could be taken care of, and their sufferings could be alleviated. They could enjoy reasonable conditions in their homes and in their living.’ “And that is true, brethren and sisters. In my feeling, the gospel is the answer to all the problems of the world, if we go deeply enough and all are united in solving them. And that is why we work harder in missionary work, so that we can gradually bring the gospel to all the people, … the gospel of serving the poor, taking care of those less fortunate than ourselves.” (Transcript of Welfare Services Meeting, 5 Oct. 1974, pp. 18–19.) |
| Subject: | This book is a mechanism through which honest people... |
| Date: | Feb 07 10:20 |
| Author: | NewJackVictory |
| ...who sincerely believe in the church are guilted and
traumatized into confessing to authorities things that will stigmatize
themselves, thus leaving those who are adept in lying or hypocrisy to
advance to the higher echelons of the church. The church was founded by
megalomaniac sex fiends and continues to be operated today by their physical
and intellectual descendants, thus books like this serve an important
sociological purpose of keeping those with tendencies for excessive honesty
away from the higher reaches of power where the churches most embarrassing
secrets are kept. If anyone thinks that all of the brethren in the 70 and 12 have never committed sins like masturbation I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. |
| Subject: | Re: Another piece of wisdom from SWK |
| Date: | Feb 07 10:52 |
| Author: | Margie |
| Thanks for posting that. What a evil little human SWK was. DH and I bought The Miracle of Forgiveness because it was so highly recommended. (late 80's) We threw it in the trash. We had just gotten sealed and then read that evil book and we never went back to the temple again (we got to take the death oaths) and never went back to church. TMOF really helped us see the LDS church for what it really is. |
| Subject: | The idea of if you've even thought of the sin |
| Date: | Feb 07 10:32 |
| Author: | cl2 |
| My exmo therapist--his favorite book right now is
something called, "Get out your mind and into your life." The prevailing attitude is that WE ARE NOT OUR THOUGHTS. That is a difficult one for me to understand, but he explained it to me and it makes sense. Something to do with all our "programming" not just from religion, but from childhood experiences, from life experiences--like I tend to have overly-sensitive radar for cheating as I was cheated on. I can't trust that radar to be correct as it has been programmed by my experiences. |
| Subject: | The idea that we are perfectible - all we have to do is |
| Date: | Feb 07 12:29 |
| Author: | Uncle Max |
| really try and we can be perfect. Which to most christians is the Pelegian Heresy which was seen through in the 4th Century. I drop kicked my copy into the Humber Estuary, I couldn't bring myself to burn it. I rather regret it since, although I vividly remember how much I hated and feared it, I can't quote from it. Tho' does anyone know what he had against high-mindedness? |
Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church
www.exmormon.org