Subject: My gripe with the Church is not so much that most things they preach are false, hell,
Date: Oct 15 09:10
Author: ihidmyselfbecauseIwasnaked

I suspect we all believe things that are false. The problem is with the Church's method of determining truth: prayer. It obviously doesn't work. You can have 100 different people pray about the same thing and get 100 different answers. But the Church wants you to believe prayer works because it knows that ultimately it can have a great deal of control over what you feel during prayer.

So if truth is your goal, (and it may NOT be the goal for some) then the Church isn't going to get it for you. The only method out there for consistantly coming to the truth is the scientific process where you continually question and reevaluate your conclusions based on the evidence you find.

That's why so many religions are so down on science. The Scientific process gets you to the truth while the relgious process keeps you trusting your feelings.


Subject: Re: My gripe with the Church is not so much that most things they preach are false, hell,
Date: Oct 15 09:32
Author: Java Queen

A part of me wonders if this praying issue isn't some psychological tool made to be a self imposed thought police on a person.

What I mean is this. A faithful or trying to be faithful, worthy (whatever term is coined most often) seeks direction or answers to doctrine, life, to mission/marriage whatever. They are told to pray about it by another church member, probably and usually someone higher up in rank. They are telling you in unspoken words that they know if you pray about it, you are going to come up with the answers that the church wants you to come up, period. If you don't come up with the answers that the church wants you to come up with, then in unspoken terms you know that you will believe that you are not worthy enough to be answered or that there is something wrong with you. Your proverbial boat begins to rock.

Now if you come up with the right church approved answers (and if you can convince yourself it was the Holy Ghost telling you) what a happy little clam you are that is worthy and all that baloney! You're on the right track, the church is true, blah blah.

So by them placing the burden on you to find your own answers via prayer, it is up to the person to determine how much they want to remain a part and parcel of the LDS spin religion and a person regulates their own thought police. Just like in the books 1984 and Animal Farm.


Subject: "That's my good little girl . . . "
Date: Oct 15 10:08
Author: I'm finally out


For example: When, as a uber-TBM, I used to discuss my questions / issues with garments or polygamy with people -- higher ups, I was given various ideas, opinions, quotes from the church handbook, and told to pray about it (duh - of course I was praying about it!)

If I would come to a "faith-ful" conclusion, increasing my testimony about the subject in question, I felt a (now I know it was contrived)sense of peace, and felt like such a good little girl. In retropsect,when I shared my happy progress with these same people, it was almost like a little girl making her mommy or daddy proud -- "Now that's my girl -- I knew you (were faithful, pure, stalwart enough) to come up with the "right" answer. Being "good" in this way / receiving approval from others in the church, esp. the leaders has always, up until two years ago when I left at age 40!!) been a huge source of self esteem for me.


Oh my gosh!!

Although leaving was absolutely excruciating for me, as I write this, I can see one of the HUGE benefits of leaving!!

Oh, and the delicious cup of coffee I'm sipping while writing this is also a nice little perk!


Subject: I think they use prayer as a "catch all"...
Date: Oct 15 09:40
Author: FreeRose

They tell you to "pray" for a testimony, for a mission, for health, for whatever. Then if you don't *feel* anything or *hear* an answer, it is YOUR fault. You are not living righteously because THE CHURCH IS TRUE and infallable. So the burden is always on the member to live up to an unattainable perfection. This causes exhaustion and depression. I had enough of the merry-go-round.



Subject: Oh, definitely. Mormon prayer is the Self-Blame Dynamic.......repeated daily.
Date: Oct 15 11:52
Author: dja

Mormon prayer is an Ode to.... "The Lie".

Mormon prayer is a get-out-of-jail-free, Indemnification Waiver....disguised as a 'holy benediction'.

If ANYTHING bad.......... 'It's your fault.'
Rape, Burglary Victim, Cancer........
"You did something really bad, this time. ....."

“one reason why so many people die, while journeying to this place; it is because the Holy Ghost is sick of them”

– BY Policy on Handcart Disaster


Subject: Re: My gripe with the Church is not so much that most things they preach are false, hell,
Date: Oct 15 09:53
Author: Highland

A burning in the bosom could be an ulcer, not divine confirmation.

Not all Christian denominations are "down on science," by the way, but I can see how a cult that creates a bizarre and unverifiable dogma would be.


Subject: Whereas my gripe is...
Date: Oct 15 10:19
Author: Stray Mutt

...the oppressive, conformist, unenlightening, anti-human, authoritarian nature of the beast. Believers are treated like crap and are encouraged to treat each other like crap. It breeds anxiety and self-loathing. It's your fault when magic doesn't work, when the blessings don't come. You are unworthy, never the leaders.


Subject: Re: Whereas my gripe is...
Date: Oct 15 10:28
Author: charles, buddhist punk

Stray Mutt wrote:
> ...Believers are treated like crap and are encouraged to treat each other like crap....You are unworthy, never the leaders.

Yet the unworthy member is expected to pay up in tithes and other offerings without fail...otherwise, they still get a load of crap. Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?


Subject: "You are unworthy, never the leaders."
Date: Oct 15 22:37
Author: Deenie, the dreaded single adult

That's it. Even when the leaders dictate programs that don't work for real people; even when leaders' decrees crush members to the ground--THEY are right; YOU are wrong; it has to be something YOU did that made this *not* work.

All of those conference talks and Ensign articles about the person who had the nerve to get angry at a bishop/stake president/leader of *whatever,* and then was brought humbly to repentance (by praying, or reading the scriptures, or because their child said something astute) used to make me sick.
(I don't read or listen to them, anymore...!)
Just brainwashing--all of that "stay humble," "be as a little child," "be teachable" crap--all it really meant was, "Do as you're told; don't you DARE think for yourself. Obey at all costs!"

I swear it wasn't like that when I joined!

I'm one of those who wasn't super concerned about whether JS really saw an angel, etc., or not. (I didn't know about *his* foray into polygamy...) I figured one church was as good as another, and the mormon church (back then) seemed friendly, activity-oriented, and caring. I wanted a nice place to hang out with friends, do some community service, learn a few crafts, whatever. The icy hand of correlation--and then computer control--tiptoed in the back door when we all weren't looking. Goodbye good times: Roadshows, week-long temple (mostly fun!) trips to Washington D.C., Stake Bazaars, freedom of choice in special musical numbers, poetry and music additions to lessons--all that trickled away until the church became nothing more than a weekly indoctrination session.

No more fun or enjoyment; computers made it easy for "church headquarters" to keep track of every penny a ward took in--and they did. Things that used to 'slide by' were no longer able to.

In such a tightly-controlled setting, it's no wonder that lesser leaders began to take on complete dictator roles.
Minor infractions began to take on major consequences. Suddenly, it was of *dire importance* to wear the right style of footwear and the correct number of earrings.

Next thing you know, they'll be telling you what kind of UNDERWEAR to wear, for pete's sake!
Oops! Uh, guess I'd forgotten...
Oh, well...



Subject: That's one of my gripes too...
Date: Oct 15 11:01
Author: Dagny

The method they teach to determine truth (pray, repeat until your feelings match their teachings) is faulty. In fact, it often hinders the ability to differentiate between what is factual and what is fantasy in other aspects of life. People are not taught how to test information for accuracy.

This kind of thinking IMO is not beneficial to the population at large in the quest to obtain truth. It might be fine for humans to have a coping mechanism about their mortality and to keep the masses controlled.

However it is stunting human potential to determine actual facts when we have to accept preconceived conclusions and cherry pick facts to support them.

Another major gripe I have about the church is not actually what they teach: it is what you miss by being that narrow minded, sheltered, afraid, and controlled. Life is short. The universe is huge. A Mormon spends their whole existence peeking out of a tiny window. There is so much I missed while being "protected" by my religion for 40 years.


Subject: Isn't it fun to wake up one day, like a little child, but 40 years old?
Date: Oct 31 04:18
Author: just another exmo

You have to play a good game of catch-up to have normal relationships with your co-workers and peers in the REAL world.



Subject: Septuagint and the origins of the Quorum of the 70...
Date: Oct 15 15:16
Author: Rastacat

Probably the origins of the 70... When the Hebrew language was practically extinct in Hellinistic Israel, the Old Testament was translated into Greek. 70 Scholars studied the original text separately, and all came to the same translation. This was attributed to the hand of God guiding, the translations. When sensibly, perhaps there were errors with mistranslations and then all these translations were gathered up to make the Cannon translation, due to threat of force as Polmey II was a king... or religious cohersion?

Just as there was only "one" version of the Book of Mormon? ha ha ha. one that contains, White and delightful, to light and delightful. ha ha.


Subject: BULLSPIT!
Date: Oct 15 17:09
Author: Daniel Dennett's gay cat

Yeah too bad that scientists are human. They have bias, beliefs, and political agendas of their own. Many have come together throughout history to promote their brand of politics under the guise of "science". It's easy to get suckered because science is considered free of bias, but alas, scientists are political monsters.


Subject: Re: BULLSPIT!
Date: Oct 15 22:15
Author: Dave The Atheist

Yeah too bad that theists are human. They have bias, beliefs, and political agendas of their own. Many have come together throughout history to promote their brand of politics under the guise of "religion". It's easy to get suckered because religion is considered not free of bias, but alas, theists are political monsters.


Subject: This is the old "Scientists make mistakes too" argument. Well, duh!
Date: Oct 15 23:20
Author: ihidmyselfbecauseIwasnaked

You've got to compare the results and see which approach has the better track record. I think if you were to examine all the claims made by religion throughout recorded history I suspect you would be lucky to find a single instance where any religion stuck its neck and made a unique objectively testable claim that actually was later proven to be true.

Compare that with science. There are literally billions of examples where science, or more accurately, the scientific process, got it right. Most of us would not even be alive today to sit around discussing religious issues if it weren't for science.

So, if truth is the goal then here's the score:

Religion: 0
Science: Billions


Subject: My gripe with the church is it invaded and manipulated my private and family life. n/t


Subject: Mormon Prayer
Date: Oct 31 17:36
Author: freedomofthought

wants you to have a feeling or get feelings. Feelings are based upon mostly emotions. Emotions are most illogical and irrational. Thus you have 100 prayers for the same thing and 100 different answers/conclusions.

The mishies want someone to have a warm fuzzy feeling in them before they pray and then they equate that feeling to fact.

Real prayer is just a simple conversation with you and your Maker if you chose to believe in God. Really its as simple as that. Its not to get feelings on one issue or another. Cause then if you do allow your own fallible feelings or ideas to come into play you'll conclude different things and be sorely disappointed that it didn't happen.

Mormonism equals emotional and pyschological exploitment.


Subject: One couple I knew when I was in college...
Date: Nov 01 14:48
Author: Deenie, the dreaded single adult

...were praying to find out if they should marry each other when the lights went out.

They took that as a sign that they should get married.

"Great!" I thought; "The lights went out on all of us (the whole neighborhood, actually)--so, should the two of them marry us all?"

Logic like that has always amazed me, even when I was totally immersed in the church. I was never a believer in prayer to "get answers" for problems, or to find out what to do (take a new job or stay at the old, move to a new home, stuff like that).

I always wondered about the folks who did that stuff--why wasn't their faith shaken when they took the new job, and the company went under a year later? Or if they moved, and the new house was a money pit? Or if they married someone, and he/she turned out to be a jerk?

I used to say the mandatory prayers--at meetings, every night, etc.--but I never prayed about my action on major decisions!



Subject: presupposition vs. exploration
Date: Oct 31 18:37
Author: Old_Beezle

The main problem with the Mormon approach to conversion is the context in which the experiment is performed. Typically you have several people telling you that the theory is correct (that the church is true) and they want you to be like them and to know too. So the applicant is told to read and pray to know the answer "for themselves." This approach presupposes that the hypothesis is true and throws in some societal pressure to boot.

The better approach is exploration and experimentation. You test your hypothesis in different conditions to see if it's universally applicable. The results do the talking--not your emotions. Plus, you continue to test the hypothesis (not simply restate the positive results as morgbots do in testimonkey mode).

Mo's have gone for the sales pressure emotional response angle. That's all. Keep in mind that BIC morgbots have it much worse as they are told ALL OF THEIR LIVES that the church is true. You hardly even have to pray about it at that point. Your brain is already hardwired to believe it through constant conditioning.

Science says, "go find the answers--they're out there."
Religion says, "we have all of the answers here--stay inside the cave."


Recovery from Mormonism - The Mormon Church

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