Subject: Tales from a bitter Financial Clerk
Date: Nov 12, 2009
Author: Brother Spendlove

I've served as the ward financial clerk for the last 2 years, but can't take it any more. I'm going to get released soon and then go completely inactive, then resign when the time is right. Before I leave the morg I was thinking about doing something to really screw up tithing settlement this year...but on second thought maybe I would just ask if anybody out there has some funny clerk stories. Or maybe some ideas on going out with a bang. I have become the financial clerk who pays no tithing.

It seems to me the morg has become a church of clerks. There are statistical clerks, financial clerks, ward clerks, membership clerks, assistant clerk, etc. Lots of boring men with access to confidential info.

One of the best parts of being a financial clerk is getting bounced checks for tithing and then giving the member a copy of their bad is so hard not to just burst out laughing. The last time this happened I couldn't resist and just said "Well so much for the Lord blessing YOU for trying to pay your tithing." I also get a kick out of tithing settlement watching the members squirm and apologize when I give them their end of the year statement..."Oh I know it doesn't look like much but I still will be paying more before the end of the year." Ha ha. I really don't care. I wish they would get wise and just quit paying. One guy came in with a big check at the end of December to make up for his back tithing and then a week later I get a notice that the check was no good. I split a gut. It is such a ridiculous system.

As a ward we send Salt Lake upwards of half a million dollars during the year and they only let us spend about $5,000.00 or so for the ward budget. AND NO ONE BATS AN EYE AT THIS DISPARITY!!!

Another thing that kicks my butt is some of the fast offering money we dole out. The bishop is really tight with those who don't pay tithing but if you pay tithing they will help you with rent, mortgage, medical bills, insurance, etc. I wonder if it would make more sense to tell them to "take a break from tithing and get caught up on your bills."

Any good stories out there??


Subject: Holy Worm, Batman!
Date: Nov 12 22:43
Author: Guy Noir, Private Eye

Brother Spendlove wrote:
As a ward we send Salt Lake upwards of half a million dollars during the year and they only let us spend about $5,000.00 or so for the ward budget. AND NO ONE BATS AN EYE AT THIS DISPARITY!!!


Subject: Exec Sec
Date: Nov 12 22:50
Author: Fubeca

I know what you mean. For 20 years I'd had the calling of Executive Secretary over 5 different times with as many bishops. I remember meeting with other exec secs at the Stake Priesthood Leadership Meeting and we all seemed a bit jaded. It was a weird frustration at having to be at all the same meetings as the bishopric and yet not having the same authority or responsibility. We saw all the crap and didn't have the extra burden of the manipulative "spiritual experiences."

I especially hated having to call people up to come in for an interview with the bishop. I usually knew why, but always claimed I didn't. I knew WAY too much about other members in the ward and I always felt uncomfortable with the information. Looking back I realize it was because the information crossed their normal personal boundaries and I should never have been privy to the information under any circumstances.

Some bishops respected ward member's privacy while others didn't. Most of the time I knew everything and I'd NEVER tell an LDS bishop anything I expected to remain confidential. One time my wife was RS President at the same time under one of these loose lipped bishops and he'd tell us both private things individually...and funny thing was, we'd feel uncomfortable talking to each other about it so we rarely did!


Subject: Re: Tales from a bitter Financial Clerk
Date: Nov 12 22:56
Author: anonymouse

You could give the uncashed check back to the non-believing spouse if you knew of any.


Subject: The Ward budget really opened my eyes
Date: Nov 13 07:21
Author: confused

I was Finance Clerk too. When the budget came out I had seen it, we had discussed it, and at this time I also printed out the tithing statements. I realized that my tithing statement was just about the same as the ward budget. I figured that with about 70 full tithe payers, the church was raking in about 60 times what I contributed just from our ward, and only giving back mine for us all to function with.

For the last few months before I finally left I only contributed to the Fast offerings- tithing money went there too. SLC gets all the tithes, but Fast Offerings stay in the Stake and I'd rather people I knew had access in times of need than SLC playing in it like a kid in raked leaves.


Subject: Re: The Ward budget really opened my eyes
Date: Nov 13 07:55
Author: Brother Spendlove

Yeah, I think that is about right. When I was paying tithing it would amount to pretty close to the amount of our ward budget. In a really good year, our ward contributed close to a million dollars in tithing to the morg. In a down year maybe half that...we have some really well to do members in our ward who are thoroughly brainwashed. One guy alone last year paid a little over $100,000.00. Another even more than that.

There is a way to bypass the ward and pay direct to SLC if you want it all confidential from the bishop and his worker bees. I once thought that if I were going to stay in the church I would just pay money into the humanitarian fund direct to SLC and leave it at that. But I don't even trust them to use the money for humanitarian purposes, there is no accountability built into the system at all. So I think I will just leave after this year and not give them a dime. I'm quite jaded at this point.


Subject: Just think, after raking in each haul the Brethren can launder it...
Date: Nov 13 08:52
Author: Gorspel Dacktrin
Mail Address:  

through a church owned business and then it ceases to be tithing money. Any profits "earned" by the church owned businesses can be used for pet projects of the Brethren and if any lowly tithepayers ask whether it's a good use of tithing money, they'll quickly learn that it's none of their business because it's not tithing money anymore.

What a racket!!


Subject: As one who was raised sort of Christian, do other churches promote offerings as being “god’s money”
Date: Nov 13 07:39
Author: Quoth the Raven "Nevermo"

and that you will get some blessing from contributing?

I always saw it as a strictly financial matter, you attend a Church and the church needs money for the building and for programs, so you contribute. Of course, mainstream churches publish the budget and are accountable for the money.

The whole concept that good things will happen if you give money and bad things will happen if you don’t give money is what the Martin Luther was all about 500 years ago.

The Morg creates horrific stress on families by demanding non-stop children from couples at an early age, when they have no education or training, while also demanding their money and time. Forget about the afterlife, the morg knows how to create a living hell, right now.


Subject: sort of
Date: Nov 13 10:00
Author: anon lifelong christian for this

Many churches still teach tithe- 10%- going to the church, and that God will bless you for it. No other denomination, though, attaches worthiness to it (at least not to the extent LD$ does.)

Some churches no longer teach tithe, but they teach the "give what you have set in your heart to give, God loves a cheerful giver" thing.

But yeah, every church I have ever been a part of his published ALL of it's numbers. And if they are running low on a goal, they will tell the members, "Hey, we are running low, we're not going to make this goal, etc."

I think most people are probably more generous A. when they know where the cash is going and B. when they are left to decide. I know Mo's give, and many of them give 10%, but it's out of fear. Cheerful giver, indeed.


Subject: Re: As one who was raised sort of Christian, do other churches promote offerings as being “god’s money”
Date: Nov 13 12:23
Author: sherv

In my church there is no attachment to good things happening to you if you tithe. What is said is YOU will feel good about helping all that the church supports and all their mission work. It is about the feeling YOU will have by giving financially. It is not a promise at all that GOD will be good to you because of it. How ridiculous. And of course we know our pastor needs an income for all he does and the building must be paid for and in my case now we are building a new sanctuary so more money is needed. You give what you can and there is no pressure.


Subject: Other churches do not confront you about it
Date: Nov 14 04:41
Author: one reason why I did not join

The Catholic Church sends envelopes. Protestant churches have a lot of "special offerings" if the budget is too low. I know in the Assembly of God only a small percent is sent to headquarters. The AG missionaries have only a small percent given to headquarters for accounting even though donations are paid to headquarters for that specific missionary. I've known people that are missionaries and those that worked at headquarters. It's very different. Don't assume other churches don't waste money but usually the members are on the board and make decisions about it.
This whole issue is one reason I was hesitant about joining. Being told to pay your tithing before bills and then come to us for help if you need it. How does that make sense?

I'm glad you posted about the confidential information. That was the straw that broke the camels back to speak. The missionaries wanted me to fill out a form in triplicate before being baptized with a lot of personal information on it. I refused. They said it was just sent to "Salt Lake" like that would make me feel better?
I have mixed feelings about it as they are very nice people.


Subject: The disparity in my ward was one of the big thorns that led to my disbelief...
Date: Nov 13 08:07
Author: Finance Clerk

I was finance clerk for 4 years in a upper middle class ward about 10 years ago. I got the calling after I turned down the stake president for a high counsel calling. At the time I was a questioning believer and did't think it was right to be in that position.
Anyway as ward clerk I found that:
- Our ward raked in just over $1 million dollars a year, and our annual ward budget was $2600. "Hmmmmm!"
- I was the highest tithe payer in the ward. Only one other family came close.
- In fact our family alone paid enough in tithing to cover the ward budget AND hire at least a part-time janitor, even though we ward members had to clean the building ourselves.
- Some families who seemed to be doing pretty well financially only paid peanuts...often only at the end of the year. And just the opposite some families who seemed to be living paycheck to paycheck seemed to be sacrifing significantly to keep the "law of tithing". I thought "save your $500 and go buy yourselves some clothes".



Subject: My last straw was.....
Date: Nov 13 09:25
Author: Designed4Joy

I quit paying to tithing and only did fast offerings the last year of activity when I found out that 80% of BYU was funded by TITHING. I thought, 'why should I bust my butt to pay for some smart, rich, affluent kid to get a prestigious education for peanuts while my hard-working middle class kid couldn't get in with a 3.7 was all downhill from there for me and the MORG.


Subject: Yeah. The church has become elitist. The rich seem to thrive in it while it bourdons the poor.
Date: Nov 14 03:15
Author: Rubicon

I attended BYU and there were so many spoiled rotten rich kids there. The young married couples with daddy's help do ok but the kid that gets married off the mission who isn't the best student and has no money is headed for a life of hell.


Subject: Re: Tales from a bitter Financial Clerk
Date: Nov 13 08:53
Author: luminouswatcher

I have been Ward Clerk under six bishops in three different wards over the years. Under two of those I had no assistance and did finance and membership duties in addition to the curriculum order and endless meetings.

In Virginia I single handedly raised the home teaching stats from low single digits to 40%, just by moving out the records for those people who no longer lived there. This was before they started using the modem to transfer membership records and you got the reconciliation report only twice a year. I find it interesting how jaded and cynical I was, even in those days, while most of my "head" was still "out of control" TBM. I found it interesting that they had the financial transactions on computer and used modems to keep things up to date and timely while they kept what I considered the most important, the membership records (because they represented living breathing souls) in the dark ages. I spent at least one all nighter a week for six months to get things cleaned up. Grrr.

During those days as an AF officer, I was working around 16 hours a day, with most of it being in front of a computer terminal, and Sunday being my only "break" from work. So one day the wife of the Bp 2CC exclaimed in front of a big group how "off" I was, because I just wanted to spend Sundays on a computer (the ward computer). Those words still sting a bit and make me angry too, even after all of these years. All that work and dedication, and to have it all devalued as a bit of miss directed selfishness. In those days, if you had computer skills, you were almost guaranteed to be stuck in a "support" role, never having the opportunity for an ecclesiastical job. It all seems so silly now, how we as morgbots search for that "ratification" that we are loved and blessed of God. Ha.

One bishop I worked for was awesome, and he bent over backwards to make me feel I was a valued part of his team. Like a third councilor. The others were various levels of disrespected servitude.

I am finding the memories of the courts of love bother me more than anything else in my life, even some unpleasant things while in the military. I am really disappointed in myself that I did not stand up and call BS on the manipulative and abusive behaviors directed toward some really interesting and lovely people. It is just awful how an incorrect world view can shape how you hear and interpret what people really say, and more importantly, how you reach out, not to help them up, but to slap them down into submissiveness.

My DW still comments on how she was the only wife of a bishopric member who did not know what was going on in the ward. In government circles, people usually try pretty hard to protect her secrets, because they believe it to be important. In retrospect, I find it funny how mormon leaders don't have that same drive to protect confidences, etc. It just is not that important, but a tool for wielding power. But what can you expect from amateur hour? From top to bottom, having a professional set of skills for one's job is more due to luck than planning.


Subject: I feel validated whenever I read this board
Date: Nov 13 09:31
Author: 2thdoc

It would be nice to meet y'all sometime; we've had such similiar experiences.

I was finance clerk for the last 3 years and it was during that time that I finally announced outloud (to myself) that it was all BS. I had always been a faithful tithe payer and also gave a very generous fast offering, thinking within my deluded mind that it was all being used for feeding the poor and clothing the naked, etc. Quite the eye opener to see firsthand how church finances really function. I stopped paying tithing after about 6 months in that position.

And, my goodness, I can so relate to Fubeca and his experiences as Exec Sec. I always felt so uncomfortable hearing the bishop freely talking about things that I know people were confiding to him under the expectation that they be kept confidential.

And, Luminous Watcher, I couldn't agree more that some of my worst PTSD moments happen when flashes of me taking notes during "love courts" pop into my mind. Sick, sick, sick.

Anyway, as I've said before, the most value of this board for me is just realizing I'm not alone. Thanks all.


Subject: I had a Bishop from the bowels of hell...
Date: Nov 13 09:39
Author: Steven

who had perfected the art of guilt trips and condemnation. This guy would have been a natural born Nazi, just born in the wrong era and country. I remember walking in to my Tithing Settlement with him one year, with my wife and 3 little children. I told him I was $1,000 short on tithing, but that the $3,000 I gave was given with "much sacrifice and faith." He looked at me and said in front of my wife and children, "Did the savior give his all to you? You should have budgeted your money better." The look on his face was one of disgust. Later he told me that I had embarrassed my family by showing such a lack of faith.

Since then, in another ward, I was a financial clerk for many years. I have seen so many people struggle through tough times, but yet spend their last dime paying the morg. I have noticed that if you have a popular MOMO name, or are related to heirarchy, you are helped in extraordinary ways. There was a guy in my last ward who was relatd to a GA. He had 7 children. The church paid his mortgage every month w/o fail ($1,300) for three years, while he was w/o a job. I know because I co-signed the checks. Other less prominent folks were not given the same courtesy.

In the end, if you've been a fnl clerk, it becomes readily apparent how extremely difficult the church is on ordinary family's, sucking their finances and time dry to the bone. The church hurts families.


Subject: I wonder if there is some way for members to designate tithing...
Date: Nov 13 19:54
Author: Summer that it can only be used for ward expenses. If enough members were able to do this, it would send an interesting message to SLC.


Subject: Re: I wonder if there is some way for members to designate tithing...
Date: Nov 14 10:01
Author: Designed4Joy

I asked, years ago when discovering the BYU funded tithing issue. My Bishop said, not surprisingly, "No" with a very confused look on his face that I would even care. That has b been the universal response from every member I question about their feelings about it. When I ask why some financially struggling family in Europe (for example)be funding the education of some rich, smart kid who grew up in the Utah Valley all members have said the SAME thing..."the rich kids parents have been paying tithing for all those years so he deserves it so it's fair". I said, but I have been paying faithfully for 35 years and while I am upper middle class, my child could not get in with a 3.8, so that isn't fair to my family, not to get 'college credit' for my family. No one sees the problem....

So....I just began paying all my money to Fast Offerings and another charity I felt lead to help with....sponsored a few kids in 3rd world countries. This was the beginning of me thinking for myself and following the leadings of the Holy Ghost in my living of 'the Gospel'.


Subject: My story (told it before)
Date: Nov 13 09:40
Author: cludgie

I was financial clerk in a mixed American/non-American ward. I hated it and accepted it only because I thought I had to. It was tricky because you had to separate the euros from the dollars, make separate entries, and make two different kinds of deposits, then you had to do a sort of reconcilement involving exchange rates and I don't know what. I had to get the previous finance clerk to help me each time I had to do the report. I just couldn't get it right.

But I spent a lot of time with the ward and the records clerks, both yanks married to Europeans. We BS'ed a lot one day, and we found out that the three of us were all closet unbelievers. When we all compared notes one day and found out about each other, there was one of those cricket moments. We all just sort of smiled, looked down and shook our heads, then spun around in our office chairs and went back to work. I actually think we all felt embarrassed for each other or something, although I remain unsure what our feelings actually were.


Subject: Thanks for sharing this, guys.
Date: Nov 13 10:34
Author: Tiphanie

I was never a finance or anything else clerk - I wasn't manly enough. I definitely felt like the morg was a pimp interested only in the MONEY it could extort out of me. Even as a kid having to pay like 23c one Sunday it all felt so WRONG. So I shushed myself and grumpily paid anyways... Do you guys just see your ward's finances, or can you see higher up the food chain on your computers nowadays?


Subject: Re: Thanks for sharing this, guys.
Date: Nov 13 11:39
Author: Brother Spendlove

I only have access to the ward budget, which is actually pretty slim pickens. We are not allowed to spend very much at the ward level. It is based on attendance at sacrament meeting. Since our attendance continues to plummet, our budget keeps getting nipped at.

I asked why a woman couldn't be called as the financial clerk one day. The response I got was: "It is a priesthood calling." So I asked what section of the D&C covers that question and I just got a blank look.

Maybe there is something in there, but I doubt it.


Subject: Re: Thanks for sharing this, guys. The answer to most of it: It's Tradition!
Date: Nov 13 11:45
Author: SusieQ#1

Why am I hearing Fiddler on the Roof when I type that! :-)


Subject: female / woman Financial Clerk? THAT'S A GOOD ONE!
Date: Nov 13 11:53
Author: Guy Noir, Private Eye

Anything the Club Executives don't want women to do - women to attend their a 'Priesthood Function'...

Are the ANY wards where there is a preponderence of women? I'm trying to think of a location-circumstance where that c/would happen...


Subject: Have a family Temple wedding coming up? But don't want to "pay" to attend?
Date: Nov 13 11:53
Author: He he

Write a BIG BUM CHECK to BUY your T.R. from the local Bishop, then get the wedding over with before the check bounces!

Extortion deserves cirumvention!


Subject: THREE BILLION DOLLAR MALLS etc. -- while members are struggling so hard!
Date: Nov 13 12:06
Author: Dirty Trick

Members are cleaning ward toilets etc. because the church has become too stingy to pay real janitors. Even administrative church buildings are being maintained by volunteer labor. Senior Missionaries are now being called to do Church Employee-type jobs that the church use to pay professionals to do. Missionaries are living on THREE DOLLAR a day food budgets!

And the church accounts to NO ONE!

(That's how the French Revolution started)


Subject: Re: Tales from a bitter Financial Clerk
Date: Nov 13 12:20
Author: sherv

Your last statement is so true. Why don't they tell the members to take a break from tithing so they can get caught up on thier bills. But oh no...they want to look like the good guys helping their members in tough times. They could care less about their credit rating. SAD SAD cult.


Subject: Re: Tales from a bitter Financial Clerk
Date: Nov 13 13:39
Author: Crathes

I have been a finance cleak twice. The first time was as a freshman at BYU. This was back in the days of the old Adler typewriter and carbon copies and paper based spreadsheets. Pain in the butt. All day Sunday and a full day or two at month end.

Senior year at BYU, the bishop called me to be .... wait for it.... finance clerk. Was it inspiration or desparate need for someone who knew how to do the job. I declined. He was in a state of shock for days (I know this because one of my room mates was the Exec. Sec., who told me the bishop considered going to the SP to see about a church court, as I was obviously apostate). In any case, I told the bishop that I was very busy with classes, applying to grad schools, engaged, etc. Guilt trip from hell followed. I held firm. First time I have declined a calling, but now I pick and choose as I see fit.

The last clerk calling was with a bishop who was a good guy. Treated us as real members of the bishopric. He looked to me for alternative points of view (non morgidor thoughts). What a change!

I can attest to the thin budgets. The stake is given a certain amount, but costs for buildings, utilities, etc., are paid on a central level, so the ward only gets a pittance. Many of our ward groups are now out of money and the new bishop has told aux. heads that if they spend money, they will not be reimbursed. Hmmm... Billions for a Jesus Mall, but not a penny for the people. Makes perfect sense to me!


Subject: Getting around your auxiliary running out of money . . .
Date: Nov 13 15:07
Author: imaworkinonit

I have a totally TBM sister in law that was in charge of an activity and they ran out of money, but still needed some things for the project. The bishop wouldn't approve more money, so SHE paid for it (maybe $100-200) out of her own pocket and counted it (in her mind) as tithing, since it WAS for the church.

Everybody was fine with that. . . . . don't know if she told the bishop, though.


Subject: Re: Getting around your auxilliary running out of money . . .
Date: Nov 13 16:41
Author: anon

That's actually a good idea. If more people would count the money they spend for the church as part of their tithe, I bet there'd be a whole lot less people struggling to make ends meet.

I used to pay $$ out of my own pocket all the time for parties and other activities for the young womens groups and such. I wish I had counted that money as tithing at the time.


Subject: My dearly dead mother
Date: Nov 13 18:25
Author: Baka Boy

worked a full time job till 6 months before she died. She worked as a ward librarian as her church job for all the years that I can remember.

She would buy ALL of the supplies that the library used. Pencils, pens, staples, paper, scissors, chalk, crayons, cardboard, construction paper, mimeograph crap....everything on her own dime. She refused to submit any receipt to the bishop. Goddamn, she was a proud woman.

Meanwhile, she worked her fingers to the bone, and tithed 10% on her gross, gave WAY more than fast offerings called for, donated to that stupid missionary book of mormon thing, sent money to the missionaries, went to temple, donated to the building funds, humanitarian funds, ad nauseum.

When she died, I was too embarrassed to have her funeral in our ward building because the carpet was literally in shreds in the foyer.

But the mormon cult got her money!

What pisses me off even more is when I remember cutting a check for my inheritance!

No more!


Subject: LOL I was the bishop who paid no tithing (and didn't go to the temple either). n/t


Subject: Re: LOL I was the bishop who paid no tithing (and didn't go to the temple either). n/t
Date: Nov 13 20:39
Author: gone AWOL for good

When people give you their tithing, just hand it back and say that due to the recession, the xxx ward is having a 'tithing free' period so families can have a Christmas without getting into debt. Make sure they know that it is not supposed to be paid later either. (Let people take that anyway they like!) You may get some really good interesting reactions from people. Just don't do this in front of the bishop!!:)

Or you can make a letter up, using the ward letterhead, saying: 'thank you for your donations this year' and then explain about the 'tithing free break' for a good christmas and then put the checque in it. Send it and the tithing cheque back to the donor on the churches dime too! You could put in the letter stuff about helping needy families out if they are doing fine and don't need' the money for themselves. This would look very professional. Might be tough to do, tho, if you have the double person system that my husband as clerk had to make sure no one absconded with the money.


Subject: Plenty of stories, but for another time.
Date: Nov 13 19:56
Author: Helamonster

I will say that serving as a clerk one gets to "see how the sausage is made", and that it pretty much spoils you for digesting the sausage ever agin.


Subject: Before You Go...
Date: Nov 13 20:15
Author: Mrs. Estzerhaus

can you NOT deposit Ward member's checks? The morg doesn't need more money. Tell them you had a vision or dream where Jesus appeared to you, and tells you not to take money because it's causing corruption. Families need money during the recession. That is...if you wanna leave with a BANG!!!


Subject: Good heavens! I didn't realise it was that bad.
Date: Nov 14 02:53
Author: ex aedibus

Do you have to send all your money to SLC? Do they put the wards on some sort of allowance? So you collect some $500,000 and only get to keep $5,000? Yikes!

I know that in most Christian churches, the money stays with the local congregation. There might be some denominational, synodal, presbytery, or diocesan assessment, but that would only be a percentage of the parish income.


Subject: You are not allowed to have a bank account controlled ...
Date: Nov 14 07:49
Author: luminouswatcher

by the Ward. [From my experience, but it may be dated now] You make the deposit on Sunday at the Bank, and the Ward software transfers the accounting information for the transaction to SLC as part of the process. All the monies are safely transferred to SLC banks by COB Monday.

If the computer is down or the modem connection could not be made, they have a telephone number you call to complete the transaction the old way, like they used to use before adopting computer modems.

Money for use in local expenditures is allocated back to the Stake. It is derived from sacrament meeting attendance figures taken from a "magic month" and on a ward by ward basis. The SP then decides what amount to allocate to each ward for their yearly budget. In some stakes like the one in Austin, TX that I lived in, the SP was focused on temple attendance, so they would charter monthly buses between Austin and the Dallas temple. (They are expensive if you have ever hired one.) So there the wards had a much smaller budget than in other places (the total YM budget for the entire year was $200 - To pay all scouting awards, camping fees, and share of combined APYW activities). If the ward busts a budget, the SP catches the heat from SLC over it, and the stuff rolls down hill from there.

With respect to fast offering. In Virginia when I got my first clerk assignment, our ward spent 3-4 dollars for ever one we took in. They had a big push to convince families to pay more than the cost of the meals you did not eat. Our family, on 1st Lieutenant pay in the DC area, and as part of the "bishopric team", went from $15 a month to $125. And this is in addition to tithing if you remember.

The big problem was the cost of living. If someone lost their job for three months and had their bills picked up by the bishop, you burned through a lot of small contributions very fast. But at least they helped folks who needed it and they still lived by the mantra "We take care of our own." Bishops were then forced to be more restrictive and had to justify everything they did to the corporate infrastructure during PPIs. The wards then dropped to about 3 to 1 as the norm, with the occasional surplus month.

One of the interesting things in all of this is that there was only one unit in the stake during the early period my experience covers that was in the "black", meaning they took in more FO monies than they spent. That unit was the Spanish branch. Those who made the least per capita. The big difference was probably they paid rent and apartment sized utilities rather than mortgages and house expenses, as well as other cultural differences.

The last time I was called as a clerk it was for the finances and I lasted a month or so. It is one of the "straws" they accelerated the thinking shift that made possible my exit. I hated being a support guy in the clerk job. I had done it in the different places for well over 10 years accumulated time, and I had developed the skill set to be very efficient and good at it. But there was not any personal growth anymore. It does not do anything for personal "spirituality" at least for me, as I don't receive spiritual fulfillment from just being "in the know" or being close to the power base. I wanted to help people (a following Jesus thing). I could not understand why God would disregard my feelings to the degree that I would have to do this "thing" again. DW felt the same was and was confused also.

I was frustrated to get tagged with a "desperation" calling instead of being blessed with an "inspired" calling. Isn't it weird how we condition ourselves to make the plate of crap palatable? It took so much effort to snap the world view and see the all the pieces make the true puzzle. We sit in BPc meetings and see how the callings are made, yet we pretend, pretend, pretend. We fail to accept and acknowledge the truth. They are all desperation callings.


Subject: God will keep your fridge running
Date: Nov 14 09:37
Author: All is well in Zion


Subject: "Will a man rob God?" No, but self-important men will rob OTHER men in God's name!
Date: Nov 14 10:48
Author: Crap

The church news article about tithing (Link in a previous thread) talks about the dark days of the church and what President Snow had to do to financially pull things out. What the church DOESN'T mention is the horrible financial situation that Brigham Young left the church in years before.

Young saw no difference between the Church's money and his OWN money (See M. Quinn for more details). The church had to go to court to get whatever money back that they could after Young died. Go back and take a look at the “palace” Young built for himself and his favorite wife. It was called the “Gordo House” and was said to be the largest mansion between the Mississippi and the Pacific. The church had to sell it out of embarrassment and a need for cash.

The membership are always asked to suffer for the stupidities, arrogance, excesses and ambition of the Mormon Leadership – and now, in tough economic time, the church is doing it again. How does the Morg get the nerve to ask for all that they are requiring while building a Three Billion + dollar Mall and after having lost half-a-billion in an insurance company?

And those are just the things that we KNOW about - what ELSE is going on?

Power, secrecy, vast wealth reserves with no accountability plus a foundation of public gullibility are a wicked combination!


Subject: Re: "Will a man rob God?" No, but self-important men will rob OTHER men in God's name!
Date: Nov 14 12:33
Author: Brother Spendlove

Those are all excellent points. I also think it should be noted how the Malachi verses "will a man rob God?" are used to guilt the members. The last time I read Malachi, it seems to me that if you read the entire book IN CONTEXT (which morons never do) it is actually a criticism of the Jewish Priests...not the average Jew. Hence, in my mind, I have associated those verses with criticism of the corruption among the LEADERS and not that the members are holding back from giving. Just my two cents.


Subject: Re: "Will a man rob God?" That's an interesting observation.
Date: Nov 14 15:24
Author: Good Point

In the Old Testiment God was mad at the CHURCH LEADERS THEMSELVES because they were publicly collecting money supposedly for God's purposes, but spending it on themselves instead!

How much of the money that the Mormon Church raises actually goes toward God-Centered Humanitarian needs?

And how much money simply goes toward raising that much MORE money, so that the church can raise MORE money...on and on...?

And how much gets skimmed off by the authorities etc. who keep the church machinery greased?

According to the Old Testiment then, it may actually be the MORMON CHURCH's LEADERS who are robbing God!


Subject: International wards/branches
Date: Nov 14 12:35
Author: ex aedibus (not logged in)

Is the money the wards/branches collect transferred immediately to Salt Lake City? Or are there central bank accounts in each country for such things?

If there is a great deal of foreign exchange going on, the cult must be paying a great deal in bank fees.


Subject: Have you thought about resigning from your calling now, before tithing settlement?
Date: Nov 14 16:00
Author: Moniker

Why do all that work if you "can't take it anymore". If you can't, maybe don't then. Sit and stare at a wall instead. It would be more productive and relaxing.


Subject: Re: Have you thought about resigning from your calling now, before tithing settlement?
Date: Nov 14 16:12
Author: Brother Spendlove

Mmm tempting thought...tomorrow is Sunday. I could spring it on 'em and let them scramble to find someone else.


Related topic 565.  Ward Financial Clerks Discuss How Much Money the Church Takes in Annually



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