Subject: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" says Mormon leader (link)
Date: Jan 25, 2010
Author: Baka Boy

So, get this one:

The mormon leadership is starting to figure out that they have a ... product that nobody wants.

I just finished reading the article and have to say that I am just dumbfounded. Just WOW!!! Can you believe that they are actually out-n-out telling people not to pay attention to the problems?



Subject: Here's a gem or two from the article . . .
Date: Jan 25 09:37
Author: imaworkinonit

"Faithful questioning is a hallmark of a searching soul"

AW . . . FAITHFUL questioning. So you can question as long as you don't lose faith. Is that searching, if you have a predetermined conclusion?

"Readers have no way of knowing which critical claims have already been discredited, and the anti-Mormon sponsors are certainly not going to tell them right there on the site," he said.

This was the part that really got me. So they have no way of knowing what to believe or how the church defenders respond if they go to anti-mormon sources.

Did it EVER occur to him that people can figure out the truth BY THEMSELVES by studying and researching and thinking FOR THEMSELVES?

I found it insulting to the audience's collective intelligence.


Subject: I thought this joker was an attorney. Doesn't he get it? Using
Date: Jan 25 12:01
Author: govinda

his approach, a judge would simply listen to one side of the case and then make his ruling. No need to listen to the other side.

What an obvious waste of a legal mind. Too bad he has succumbed to the cult brainwash.
Subject: Shame on the Former BYU Provost
Date: Jan 25 10:11
Author: AxelDC

You would think that the former Provost of a major US university would understand how scholarly research worked:

"Readers have no way of knowing which critical claims have already been discredited, and the anti-Mormon sponsors are certainly not going to tell them right there on the site," he said."

Well, that's why you look at multiple sources and weigh their credibility.

Imagine if you read on the Internet that daily popcorn consumption reduced the risk of colon cancer. Would you immediately go and buy a case of Orville Redenbacher's?

Any reasonable person would do further research, judge the original source, and put it into context of what is said elsewhere from credible sources. That's what a university education should teach you to do. That's what my professors at BYU taught me to do in my history classes.

If ConAgra published the article, I would be skeptical. If the AMA published it in a peer reviewed article, and it had been backed, then I'm popping some corn.

The reason the Internet is so deadly to Mormonism is that it breaks their monopoly on information for TBMs and investigators. No reasonable person should leave the church based on what someone posts here. They should leave because the weight of evidence out there shows that Mormonism is a fraud. I didn't leave because Fawn Brodie was a clever writer. I left because the information in her book was so damning and backed by evidence from irrefutable LDS sources and non-LDS scholarly sources that there was no way I could believe that JS was a prophet.

Hafen should be ashamed of himself. As a former academic, he should know better than to tell people to believe only one source. He would have failed his own students for doing the same thing on any topic other than Mormonism.

Subject: Hafen's order to focus on Mormonism's "gems" reminds one of Jefferson thoughts on Christianity...
Date: Jan 25 03:19
Author: steve benson

. . . when he noted that looking for its bright spots was akin to coming across "diamonds in a dunghill."


Subject: Wow. Reading that almost makes my brain slow down.
Date: Jan 25 03:20
Author: MikeyA

Hopefully tbms reading that wonder about what "murky things" make people leave the church and go looking out of curiosity.

All my life I had heard about "anti-mormon" literature and how bad it was, but never had the opportunity to read it. Its' mystique grew and grew until my mission, when I was finally given some, so of course I had to read it. Six weeks into my mission I knew the church wasn't true, and a few years later I left.


Subject: Oh, the arrogance.
Date: Jan 25 03:34
Author: forestpal

"..positioning the blogger's flippant opinion alongside the scholar's well-researched dissertation.

And Sister Hafen comes across as a dumb female.

Everything the Mormons say about their religion is slanted, and false.


Subject: Just being true to their habit of attacking the person who dares to stand up against them
Date: Jan 25 07:04
Author: They don't want me back

Notice they don't attack a specific/topic issue, just the poor person who delivers the message.


Subject: "[T]he issue-taking and arguments out there have already been addressed by Mormon scholars..."
Date: Jan 25 05:04
Author: Gorspel Dacktrin

So there you have it. This is why people like Daniel Peterson and his wacky FARMS animal friends are paid the big bucks. They're are paid to pose as "Mormon scholars" and pretend to "address" all of the problems, so that the members of the Church don't have to bother thinking about anything at all other than what the leaders want to download into them.

It doesn't matter how shallow, empty, illogical, goofy, absurd or otherwise inane the rebuttals of the "Mormon scholars" are. It only matters that they said something or wrote something. So some "Mormon scholar" can argue that the horses in the Book of Mormon may have been tapirs and the chariots may have been wooden poles dragged by tapirs and that's okay--because they "addressed" some of the "issue-taking and arguments out there." They may get an "F" for content, but they get an "A" for effort and that's good enough for Church work!


Subject: Oh Brother, what a load of ____, claims (you mean the facts)
Date: Jan 25 06:55
Author: They don't want me back

found in anti-Mormon literature are no reason to abandon one's testimony.

Why the hell not, every reason a person chose to join your Church and give the Church authority to judge and run their lives has been proven false.


Subject: The one diamond in Hafen’s dunghill:
Date: Jan 25 05:29
Author: WiserWomanNow

From the article, quoting Bruce Hafen: “‘You'll always gain more from what you discover than from what you're simply told,’ he said.”

Yes, we RfM’ers certainly have learned the truth of that statement, Hafen!


Subject: Re: The one diamond in Hafen’s dunghill:
Date: Jan 25 05:35
Author: Soft Machine

Thanks for this, Baka Boy.

It's an interesting call to intellectual denial.

One of the things which interested me was this;

'Sister Marie Hafen, Elder Hafen's wife, shared this sentiment in her short address.

"I don't know the meaning of all things," she said, "but I do know that God loveth his children."'


Is she really so stupid as to think that saying something in fake 17th/18th century English makes it holier or more spiritually impressive (whatever that means!)?

Although heavy-handed, it's so clearly false and manipulative, seeking to strike a chord in the believer's heart while bypassing the intellect.

And now the filter of my patented SLCabbie Bullchip Detector is all clogged up.

SLCabbie, do you sell spares? ;)


Subject: Isn't the First Vision / Peter James&John unsubstantiated?...n/t


Subject: Good point, “Confused”!
Date: Jan 25 09:00
Author: WiserWomanNow

Also, from the article:

“There are many wondrous components of the gospel for Mormons to focus their study on rather than the unsubstantiated details and rumors of the church's history, said Elder Bruce C. Hafen…”

I, too, am not interested in unsubstantiated details. However, I am very interested in the plethora of SUBSTANTIATED details of church history!


Subject: Yep- it's the Substantiated stuff that drove me out...n/t


Subject: He conveniently left out the Book of Abraham!!
Date: Jan 25 09:35
Author: Changed Man

Seems like that's a dead and forgotten issue, a complete strike-out for the Mormons, so he doesn't even raise the issue. However, for critics of the church, the BoA is the smoking gun! This is lying by omission. The church leaders are really getting desperate if they're trying to pull this crap.


Subject: Was he the one who said the BoA wasn't central to our belief in Chrsit?
Date: Jan 25 09:56
Author: confused

He was right, but it IS central to Mormon theology.


Subject: The BofA is *IN* the PofGP, but there are other books in the PofGP, like...
Date: Jan 25 11:58
Author: Dogger Dog

The Book of Moses, The Book of Enoch, and The Articles of Faith. There may even be a section of the JS History (heavily redacted, revised, and reconstructed) in it too.

The problem with BofA is that an original was found later, and actually translated, and says nothing like JS claimed it did.

Also, didn't JS take a shot at the Kinderhook plates? Those were fakes too.


Subject: Re: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" sez Mo leader (link)
Date: Jan 25 09:35
Author: New to the Board

"...the elevated way in which the Church views Eve..."? Mormon treatment of women certainly must have done a 180 since I left.

I also noted that the faithful wife had a "short address" in which she stated that she knows that "God loveth his children". "loveth"? Doeth she thinketh she iseth in the 16th century-th?


Subject: Re: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" sez Mo leader (link)
Date: Jan 25 09:50
Author: Let Go

The church has turned looking for the true church history into a..temptation. If you put someone in front of a locked door and hand them the key and tell them not to open it and look long before we stick the key in the lock and open it? Keep it up church. Keep telling members not to look...they'll look. My parents always told us not to look in their dresser drawers..yeah right LOL


Subject: ". . .the unsubstantiated details and rumors of the church's history"
Date: Jan 25 09:49
Author: cludgie

Dammit. It's THEIR "unsubstantiated details and 'rumors'..." of their church's history. Is Brigham Young unsubstantiated among Mormons? John Taylor? The church genealogy program? These are the sources for most of our disbelief.

I also take exception to where he goes with "Faithful questioning is a hallmark of a searching soul..." I mean, clearly the message is, "Faithful questioning is a hallmark of a searching soul, but don't do it!." Where's Hugh B. Brown when you need him? Oh, right. Sorry. He's dead these many years.

"...many of the issue-taking and arguments out there have already been addressed by Mormon scholars..." Mormons got scholars?! Since when? Anyone know one? The ones I know of quit the church.

Hafen's wife is paraphrasing Butterfly McQueen in "Gone with the Wind": "I ain't never birthed no babies, Miss Charlotte!" (McQueen always hated her role in that film, and how it perpetuated a certain belief about black women. I wonder how Mrs. Hafen fares when she's alone in her thoughts.)

"When a person considers how unique the church's understanding of core doctrine differs drastically from the rest of Christianity, "It shouldn't come as a big surprise that other Christian churches don't know quite what to do with us." What do Mormons understand? My perspective is that I don't know any Mormons who understand their own church. Them that do high-tail it out. Knowledge about the church and one's ability to accept and practice it are mutually exclusive. The church knows this and insulates members from their history and doctrines. As far as what other Christian churches knowing quite what to do about them, I'm sure they all know exactly WHAT they'd like to do with the Mormon church.


Subject: Do they mean those unsubstantiated details that came from the LDS’s own archives?...n/t


Subject: That is so awesome.....
Date: Jan 25 10:01
Author: Alice Down the Rabbit Hole

that the church's scholars have answers to all the troubling questions!! Why doesn't the church do everyone a favor, publish a book of all the "misunderstood" problems, along with the Mormon scholars ironclad explanations as to why they really don't pose a problem at all?? Why tell people to only read "faith promoting" literature if, at the end of the day, EVERYTHING will be faith promoting as the Mormon scholars have the answer to every problem!! Isn't that the best way to arm the Mormon people against being misled/confused by these stories? For the church to tell them the story FIRST, along with the perfectly viable scholarly explanation? Just face the problem head on? Looking forward to the publication of said book!!


Subject: Good call, Alice. That's my hang-up too. If all of it is so easily explained, then EXPLAIN IT!!! n/t


Subject: "How (Joseph Smith) received it doesn't ultimately matter to us very much," he said
Date: Jan 25 10:23
Author: Elder Berry

Really? WOW. I guess if I used that logic with other information in my life, I would be as naive as a child being controlled by possessive parents.


Subject: First thing I tought of when I read this statement
Date: Jan 25 11:34
Author: Riverman

Who are you to say what matters to me? It may not matter to you, but it sure matters to me.

That has always been a big issue for me since I found out about the rock in the hat translation method. It makes the church a blatant liar. When you see any type of visualization of Joey Boy doing a translation its always him sitting at a desk pondering away at the golden plates. No hat even close to him. The church hides the truth, making the church a liar.

Yes Elder Hafen, it matters to me.


Subject: Rock-in-a-hat - isn't it about time they told the truth
Date: Jan 25 12:19
Author: Elder Berry

If TBMs hate being called sheep, that shouldn't accept statements like "reasons" don't matter!!!

Subject: It doesn't matter that the product was conceived to gain power, sex and wealth, just keep paying
Date: Jan 25 11:10
Author: OzPoof

tithing and voting how we tell you to.


Subject: There is a pretty big hole in his analogy.
Date: Jan 25 11:25
Author: ramanujam

"Elder Hafen, of the First Quorum of the Seventy, compared the theological gems uncovered through the restoration to awe-inspiring mountains in his address at the Salt Lake Institute of Religion which serves the University of Utah campus. He compared people who get hung up on murky specifics to golfers at the base of such mountains scouring the rough for golf balls rather than looking up and taking in the
Uh, Elder Hafen you'll never finish the 18 holes if you spend your time gazing up at the mountain instead of trying to find your lost ball. There is a time for mountain gazing and a time to focus on the problem at hand.


Subject: Here's a better analogy.....(warning - gross)
Date: Jan 25 11:34
Author: confused

People who think they are eating chocolate covered cherries are fine, and will continue enjoying the tasty treat as long as they don't notice that those ain't cherries, they're bloodclots.


Subject: "You'll always gain more from what you discover than from what you're simply told," BIG OOPS!!
Date: Jan 25 11:32
Author: Tiphanie

He just told the kids to go do their own research! Since this was the concluding sentence in the article, the lasting impression for any morgbot who reads this will be - go do you own research woohoo!!

Did he end his live address in the same way?

Those liars must hate it when their consciences trip them up like this. >;)


Subject: Once again it's the stupid Mormon answers
Date: Jan 25 11:49
Author: CA girl

that convince me the church is false. I agree with AxelDC - everyone knows you have to get your information from more than one source in order to uncover the truth. That's why the dumb LDS argument that "You wouldn't ask a Ford dealer if you wanted to learn about Chevy's, would you?" makes no sense. Well, yes I would. A Chevy dealer might know more about the product but if they want to make the sale, they aren't necessarily going to tell ME what they know. Another source (or sources, I'd check several, including Consumer Reports) will reveal the whole picture.

When I was investigating the "untruthfulness" of the church the main problem I found was that I'd find information on a so-called "anti-Mormon" site and then I'd go look at what the Mormons and their "academics" had to say about it. Usually they wouldn't so much as deny what I read as they would try to tell me what I should think about what I read - why I shouldn't care about what I read because it didn't matter. HELLO!!!! All I need to know is if the information itself is true or false. I don't need to be told how to interpret it. I can do it myself. Brucie needs to go way back and sit down and shut up.


Subject: His excuses for avoiding the "anti" literature are the same excuses for avoiding official church...
Date: Jan 25 11:52
Author: Dogger Dog

...sources, if you ask me.

The first vision accounts - dubious, at best.

What the about the rock in the hat?

Why no talk of Fannie Alger?

Why don't they refer to Emma as RLDS? (She was!)

If the golden plates were so true, why hide them? Why all the secrecy? If they really had some heretofore unknown language on them, why not let the world see it? JS should have had no fear in doing this if it wasn't made up.

Why all the secrecy behind second annointings if they truly are necessary for salvation?

Why dismiss Joseph's speedy conversion to 3rd degree Master Mason only weeks before he "revealed" the endowment?

With polygamy - why did the deed precede the doctrine? If it were truly a prophetic practice, shouldn't it be the other way around? And why justify it with Old Testament practice of it, when Yahweh clearly finds it offensive in the text?

These aren't just arbitrary questions - they all strike at the very heart of Mormonism.

Wake up, Hafen. You're being fooled.


Subject: Re: His excuses for avoiding the "anti" literature are the same excuses for avoiding official church...
Date: Jan 25 12:04
Author: Alice Down the Rabbit Hole

Or, if the golden plates were intended for Joe's eyes only, why not just be open about that? Why create the illusion that many people had seen and touched the plates, by using "misleading" language (and I think I am being REALLY generous here!) If God didn't want anybody but JS to see the golden plates, I don't think the creator and ruler of the universe would feel the need to fool people into believing otherwise!



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