So, my sister is average TBM, and average American. Too much family, not enough work to meet her family's needs. Things suck for everyone these days, and very few people are *not* receiving some kind of financial assistance from the government.

What I was shocked by is that she pays tithing out of her state funded cash assistance! Paying tithing with government funds seems to me like it would be defrauding the government since that money is meant to meet needs that food stamps can't.

Does anyone know if this is legal or not? I'm sure a lot of TBMs are doing this, not even thinking about the legality of it. I would think it constitutes welfare fraud. If so, I'm sure it doesn't bother ldscorp that its members are chancing jail time to give to the church, but it seems like it should be addressed with so many people receiving welfare benefits.

This subject of paying tithing on government assistance funds comes up from time to time.
I recall a situation when a bishop made it clear, that tithing was not necessary.

However, some paid some tithing anyhow as they claimed they "wanted the blessings."

In a kind of side ways reasoning, (in my view) they preferred to think that if the church was giving them food and other assistance, it was not a total hand out, and they were contributing in some manner.

Money given by the government does not require an accounting. Legally, they can use the money how they wish, unless and until it becomes criminal and they are caught.

What the person does with it is not reported to the government.The government is not a thinking, reasoning, entity, so people so what they want with the money, some using it wisely to take care of their family, some do not, and fraud the government in very clever ways.

When your brain-washed you will do what ever you are taught to do.

I'm not on assistance of any kind.
I make pretty good money and I tithe zero.
I do help family / friends when needed.
I'll give the person on the corner holding a sign a couple dollars, open doors for people and things of this nature.
I don't think this has anything to do with blessing or that od is sitting up their saying, I bless you, and you, and you but not you or you,, etc etc.

Life is just life. Good things happen and bad things happen to people. It just is. I can't see where tithing has any effect for or against "blessings" Why would God bless me because I gave 10% to tscc while children in Africa or anywhere in the world suffer, not give them food, protection, clean water. Why would "Gods church" build a mall instead of digging 200 wells in needed country's?

Why would God help a tbm find their car keys but not help a young child from being molested?!!

That's just stupid arrogance on the part of a Mormon or anyone who things tithing trumps compassion.

Makes me sick...

I am blessed everyday.

I found a lot depends on the individual bishop. I had a bishop tell a college student to pay tithing on a student loan. How is that income?

when the Money comes in, for LDS INC!

The church handbook of instructions makes it very clear that the only type of assistance that should not be tithed is CHURCH welfare assistance. if it isn't illegal For a church to require tithing on government assistance, well it should be.

Cash assistance is just that -- cash. Individuals can spend it however they wish. In the past this has included alcohol purchases, casino gambling, lottery, etc.

Converting other forms of assistance (EBT cards, WIC coupons, etc.) to cash is already illegal.

We should not have laws for all the dumb things people do. A law written that applied to government assistance being used for religious purposes would be completely and totally unworkable, and create an epic mess of accounting for any religious institution, including those that do a great deal of good with their charitable programs.

That may be true, but I cannot respect a church that demands 10% from every member, regardless of the member's ability to pay. Ten percent hurts a whole lot more when you are poor, and most if not all of your income must go to necessities.

The Mormon church is greedy.

I was thinking the other day about how much the mormon church is going to rake in if the $1400 per person (including every dependent) passes. Not getting into whether it's a good plan or bad (because I have feelings both ways), these young families with 5 kids are looking at basically a 10k payout, and of course, 1k to the church. Times that by all the big families and it's a cool little chunk-o-change to Mormon, Inc. Of course, since most of them hate socialism so badly, they'll probably send it back (yeah right).

It doesn't matter whether it's stimulus, social security, or just plain old assistance. It's people's money and there is no qualifications on what they can and can't spend it on, well, as long as it's something legal. And you better bet your booty TSCC will expect their cut.

If the recipients of the stimulus checks pay tithing on gross income, they shouldn't pay on the checks. What happened was the money went from the taxpayer to the government and then back to the taxpayer. The money has already been taxed. On social security, etc., then the appreciation should probably be tithed but not the original contributions.

Of course the church won't see it that way.

Exactly. But most older good mormons pay tithing on their social security, even though they paid on their gross income when it came out of their checks. I have a feeling that's changing with the younger generations. And the stimulus money is certainly something they would consider their "increase" because it's not like their taxes went up to cover it. Yet.

If she pays tithing on her gross income, she's already paid on that support. It's like putting money in the bank for a rainy day. If you paid tithing on the original deposits and the annual interest, you don't have to tithe again when you withdraw the cash.

Government assistance is the same way. Part of people's taxes are effectively stored away to use in bad times. That the government is playing the role of a bank when it distributes that cash does not mean that the money is new income.

Like Welfare, SSI is a "needs-based" program. It is bare-bones subsistence-level payment.

Back when I was a TBM, I had a friend with a disabled child who got SSI. My friend was told that she had to pay tithing on this SSI money. Because I knew about her financial situation, I thought this was horrible.

Because she paid her tithing faithfully, the church - at that time - helped her out with groceries from the storehouse. Technically, the value of these groceries should have been reported as income, which would have reduced the amount of the child's check.

Fortunately, it never occurred to my friend to report the help she got from the church, so there was never any problem with the SSI.

I was always grateful that my friend was not in my caseload, because I didn't want any part of that mess. Technically, she was committing fraud by not reporting the help she got from the church, but the way I saw it, the church was just squaring things away by replacing what they made her pay in tithing, so it wasn't as if there had been a net gain.

People on any kind of subsistence-level income should NOT have to pay tithing on it, especially nowadays when the church is being so stingy in helping people.

It was Senator Barak Obama and Orrin Hatch that pushed a law through that made it Legal for people to continue to pay tithing to churches, even while in the throes of bankruptcy.

Just stating that info.

I don't think that's right/moral, admitting that statement does tread into an opinion that might be considered political.

I also have a devout TBM friend on SSI that was half a click from being homeless. He was living in a travel trailer parked next to his brother house. IN the wake of Hinckley's demise he was moved to want to get a TR. The bishop hammered this guy for tithing before it could be allowed. I think that is despicable.
My friend was in tears over that.

And talk about screwed up, in this official LDS Inc tithing promoting tale, LDS Inc assumes the benevolent role of Bob Cratchet INSTEAD of the MUCH more fitting and appropriate role of Ebeneezer Scrooge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXvsOEAeBCg

Rusty looks more like Scrooge McDuck than Mickey Mouse. In spite of the hedge fund, I think the church spends most tithe money rather than sitting on it. The money goes back into the economy, just as if you were buying food or paying bills. It passes through a lot of Utah pockets along the way, but it gets there. So tithing on government money isn’t really bad economically.

It punishes the brainwashed, but that’s the problem of the brainwashed. The government isn’t in the cult intervention business.

happyhollyhomemaker Wrote:
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> Does anyone know if this is legal or not?
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Were it definitively found to be illegal, would that determination make a difference to them?

As long as it is in a paper bag, in cash [preferably in unmarked bills], they'll take it. They'll take anything! Even your future, your livelihood, your freedom.

TSCC Will TAKE YOUR MONEY any way it can. It doesn't differentiate. It wants it all!

kinda like them (mostly?) refusing to remit - return tithing from ill-gotten sources...

that's my read on it anywho...