Heard through the grapevine that the powers that be have figured out a way around the problem of it taking so long to get proselytizing visas for foreign missionaries. They are sending them on tourist visas and then once they are in-country, have them apply for the extended visas. Knowing how many attorneys they have on their payroll (uhh, stipend), couldn't this backfire anyway, depending on the country?

I think it would depend very highly on the individual country involved, but in general, I think this is an insane idea.

This would be DIRECTLY entering into the national politics of that country (in many countries), and the LDS Church would find itself right in the middle of a very nasty "local" fight with immense international interest, and (again: depending on the OTHER country involved) potential concern.

I think that some nations would accept this a lot easier than others, but it would only take ONE country (or one political party in that country...or one ethnic or religious faction in that country)to blow the whole scheme up into a global mudfight.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2013 01:12AM by tevai.

In fact such insanity is their bread and butter when it comes to mishie activities.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2013 10:06AM by Cheryl.

Haven't they been doing this for years?

They sure have been doing this for years. I entered Mexico in 1984 on a tourist permit that was valid for 6 months. Back in those days you actually did not need a passport to enter Mexico from the US (or to return to the US) but we all had one anyway.

The mission home had an attorney available who could mysteriously produce new entry papers every six months for mishies garrisoned in a city away from the border. Anybody who was close enough to the border was given permission to cross over to the US with a trusted member and re-enter in order to get another 6-month tourist permit. I took advantage of this to get some Burger King and a pair of pants from Sears in Chula Vista.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2013 09:12AM by Inverso.

Missionaries in Brazil in the 80s went as students.
Lying for God is ok right?

I remember thinking how cool that was back in the 1960s that the church lied on the visa applications. Silly me. Like so many Mormons, I got on board with the idea that anything was fair game so long as it advanced The Work of the Lord. My roommate got a visa (I think to Mexico, but am no longer sure) as a basketball coach.

They better be carefull or the mishies story might end up on Locked up abroad. Love that show

Temporary Immigrant. That was back in 1969, so they may do it differently these days...

When I went to Ireland in 1987, the Church said on my visa application that I was a BYU student (even though I hadn't attended BYU in more than a year) and they applied for a student visa. I just had to fill out a few relevant fields and sign it.

Once I got to the country, the mission AP's took away my US passport when I was in an Irish government office getting a green card.

The student visa had to be renewed every six months, which they did not do. So, when I left the country, I learned that I had been there illegally for 18 months.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2013 10:01AM by Makurosu.

Wow. Didn't realize TSCC was so irresponsible about visas. Guess it's right in line with how they are irresponsible about missionaries' health, now this shows they don't care about their legal safety either.

When we entered Heathrow, everyone in my group (8 of us I think) got there passports stamped for 6 months entry to the UK, except me. I told the guy that I was a missionary and was going to stay for two years. He thought for a minute and stamped it for 24 months. I still have my passport with the stamp. Kind of odd, I guess.

Uh . . . "their" not "there." I should read my posts before I post.

I was in Venezuela from 88-90. We were all there as tourists. We had an attorney who would would bribe a clerk at the immigration office to rubber stamp an extra few months after the allowed time had passed after you first arrived. Then each US missionary had to leave the country. We kept missionaries on Aruba and Curacao (I served on Curacao for 5 months) to pick up missionaries from the airport, show them around for a day and put them back on a plane. Then they'd enter again, dressed as tourists, pretending to speak no spanish and be allowed in again.

And I thought the LDS church believed in honoring and obeying the law... Yet another delusion bashed into pieces, and now with this, completely obliterated with facts



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2013 12:37PM by raiku.

Ran into two mishies in Krakow in 2007; they were there as students, they said. So I asked; Jagielonian, AGH, where?

A: seminary

Q: tyniec?

A: ???

Q: where then?

A: our own church

Q: there's a Mormon seminary school here in Krakow?

A: kind of. Can I give you this handout?

Q: uh, do you have a permit?

Mishie #1: I need one?

Me: yes of course, so does the guy playing that statue over there, or the one handing out subway cards on Bracka. Please be more discreet with these, I don't want you to get in trouble. You should have that and a copy of your passport while doing this in case you are stopped.

Mishie #1: I don't have my passport or a copy

Mishie #2: me, either

Me: guys. Do you have your visa, did you get a student id at your seminary, a karta pobyuta (showing them mine)?


Both: blank stares

I told them I wasnt into their message, didn't want the handout but said i wanted them to be safe, told them to get on the internet and look up what I told them at the appropriate .gov site, and Polish law trumps US law or church rules on these subjects, then waved goodbye and left.

Never saw them again, but always wondered about them afterwards.
I'd imagine this sort of thing is fairly common with mishies.

So clueless. It's incredible that some Mormons really think that the rules of the Mormon church somehow supersedes local laws, or they think that the Mormon church is some kind of respected entity in the world and not the annoying pest that it's actually regarded as.

Ok, a couple of ideas:

Could someone blow the whistle on the LDS church for these practices?? They are aiding and abbeding unlawful entry into foreign countries...
sounds like what some zealots did here in oh say 2000/2001 and that was in the name of religion.. Our country frowns heavily on people misrepresenting the types of visa needed....

Taking away missionaries visa's sounds like what human trafficers do to keep their wimmin from escaping....

So many parallels....

Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man? Well yes bishop, I am. The church however, is not. How does that work?

I can't for the life of me understand why countries let missionaries in (in the cases when there's a legit route into the country for them) and let them stay there (all other cases). They're a) a nuisance and b) conspicuous.

To come to work in the UK in a useful role eg engineer you need a degree and an offer of a job. But we let teenagers into the country to bother people under a religious organisation visas route - why?

Anon Brit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't for the life of me understand why
> countries let missionaries in (in the cases when
> there's a legit route into the country for them)
> and let them stay there (all other cases).
> They're a) a nuisance and b) conspicuous.

It has to do with something called freedom of religion.

But, yes, there are quite a few countries that don't like to welcome missionaries from abroad. As to Mormons and their missionaries - in most parts of the world they are a negligible quantity.

If it were, the mishies wouldn't be tracking people down and hounding them to death.

"Freedom" means they would talk only to those who express interest.

There's a big difference between allowing individuals their own personal religious freedom and allowing missionaries into a foreign country to push a false religion on other people.

truthseeker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There's a big difference between allowing
> individuals their own personal religious freedom
> and allowing missionaries into a foreign country
> to push a false religion on other people.

True - but is a government to decide what is a false religion?

And I say that as a citizen of a country where Mormonism was actually illegal for a hundred years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2013 09:57AM by egomet.

egomet Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truthseeker Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There's a big difference between allowing
> > individuals their own personal religious
> freedom
> > and allowing missionaries into a foreign
> country
> > to push a false religion on other people.
>
> True - but is a government to decide what is a
> false religion?
>
> And I say that as a citizen of a country where
> Mormonism was actually illegal for a hundred
> years.


What country?

caedmon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> egomet Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > truthseeker Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > There's a big difference between allowing
> > > individuals their own personal religious
> > freedom
> > > and allowing missionaries into a foreign
> > country
> > > to push a false religion on other people.
> >
> > True - but is a government to decide what is a
> > false religion?
> >
> > And I say that as a citizen of a country where
> > Mormonism was actually illegal for a hundred
> > years.
>
>
> What country?


Norway. Originally Norway was a one-religion country where everybod was expected to belong to the Lutheran established church.This was even in the Constitution. In the 1840'es the "Act on Dissenters" was passed, which allowed Christian Non-Lutheran churches to be established. Catholics, Quakers, Methodists and Baptists were among the first ones. Mormon missionaries arrived shortly after 1850 and caused a problem: Were they to be considered "Christian" according to the law? The case ended in the Supreme Court, which decided that Mormons were not to be counted as Christians and so were not to be tolerated. The Mormons circumvented this by organizing as a civil society, not a church. Later the law was amended to include Jews, Seventhday Adventists and Unitarians - but not Mormons. Formally they did not have freedom of religion until 1964, when the Constitution was amended. At that time about 96 % of the nation still belonged to the established church, so the problem of "dissenters" was not a very serious one.

I am about the only one who still knows about this.

Figures.

Pushing opinions on strangers should be illegal if anyone feels harassed or stalked by aggressive tactics.

First thing I tell anyone, missionary or not, when traveling over seas have a copy of your passport and know where the nearest consolate or embassy is located.

To a degree I can see keeping passports safe from loss or theft. However they need to at least give them a copy just in case.

The mission office keeps them so that the missionary will not bolt. If you read the print, however, you'll find that they are property of the US government and that the issuee is the custodian. And if you ask the host country, you will find that the passport is supposed to be on their person at all times.

My mission had a member of the office staff whose full time job was dealing with visas. We had tourist visas that could be renewed twice, but then we had to leave the country (cross the border and come right back in). One trick we did was to apply for permanent resident status (the equivalent of a US "green card"). We put on our applications that we were going to be there for only two years, which ensured that the application would be rejected, but the red tape required to reject the application kept us in the country for several months.

My friends daughter will be going to Temple Square as a sister missionary very soon. She is British. I'd like to see how the church is going to get her a visa for 18 months/2 years. Bring in a Brit to a state full of Mormons but right to the very heart of it. Bet she ends up on a 3 month tourist visa? But she'll never tell or let her parents know that she didnt get the right stuff.
Wonder how many missionaries have had to leave countries because of not having the right papers work? How many have been deported?

When I was in Switzerland/Germany, they registered us all as construction workers. Then they had Elder's sign power of attorney over to Sister Klaumuenzer...

I of course refused, but she still applied for several foreign visa's in my name.

Assholes :|