Hey everyone, sorry I keep crying to the board every time I have a personal issue, but honestly everyone here that has given me advice has literally helped me get through the day some days.

Anyway, like I had said in previous posts, my parents and family are laying the guilt on me, trying to be nice and supportive, but it comes out as attacks and huge guilt trips.

Some days I've even tried to convince myself that even though I have educated myself about the church to major extents, maybe the church is true and I need to rejoin and be a mormon just for the sake of being happy again.

I know the church isn't true, but the guilt is making me feel like I have to believe it to be happy.

Sometimes I wonder what it would've been like if I actually did serve a mission. Would I have come home early because I didn't believe it? Would I have pushed aside all feelings of doubt, and totally submitted to the mormon church and complete a full time mission? Would I have been happier, or would the sadness be greater? I ask myself those questions on a daily basis.

I am still struggling, but every day, things seems to get a little bit better, thanks to this awesome board, good friends, and an rational mind.

Any advice on how to confront those feelings of guilt and shame?

Thank you so much for everything, everyone.

rally

The guilt and shame belong to your family members, not to you.

They are projecting their fears at you, trying to infect you. You do not have to allow that to happen.

You can love and value them, without submitting to their hyper-emotional psychodramas.

suddenly your family members will shine their approval upon you once again. (although in reality they may be jittery with not completely trusting your devotion to the morg).

The issue as I see it is a young person dealing with the disapproval of his parents when he strikes out on his own. The parents have said, "You shouldn't be doing this; you need to go on a mission." This triggers those thoughts in you because they have been programmed into you through massive indoctrination for years.

Try to cultivate this thought, which is actually true: I would like my parents' approval, but hey, in this case I am not getting it. That is difficult, sad, regretful, and troublesome, but I'm still an OK, fully human person just trying to live my own life.

Please work on giving up the idea that you need your parents approval. They will survive this, and likely so will your relationship. But your relationship will be different after this because it will be adult to adult and not the parent to child relationship that has been so comfortable for your parents for so long.

Best wishes to you!

Don't fall for it. It's an old trick to make you feel bad for making your own decisions that don't agree with them. You are old enough to know how to govern your own life the way you want.

If the family starts in on the guilt and attacks, remove yourself, refuse to engage, and refuse to go on any guilt trips you don't want to take.:-)

Do not engage in any religious talk. Walk away, change the subject, talk about music, sports,the news, anything.
They will get the hint!
Or leave the house completely. Go for a run, walk, bike ride, do something physical.

Or you can tell them to stop laying on the guilt. You don't appreciate it. You just want them to live the 11th Article of Faith. No more religious talk. Tell them you are done.

Disappointing family in not making the same choices they did?

At some point in their lives your parents chose to follow LDS beliefs - that should not bind you to do the same.

For some BIC persons, they are just accepting the choices made by ancestors more than 100 years ago. You should have the right to decide such important matters for yourself.

If I was bound by my parents choice I would not have gone to college or chosen the career I did - just because they did not think women should go into science.

Its your life, you are being respectful, but we cant imprison our children to just repeat our lives.

Your guilt is the result of the programming you've consumed subconsciously in your life in mormonism. This guilt is actually false guilt for you've done nothing that is causing any physical harm to any other person or yourself. This guilt is unjustified and is a core tool for controlling your power of choice and decision.

When you realize your guilt is the result being TAUGHT to feel guilty for your choices that others do not agree with, you will be truly free. Codependency and the cult tactics of the organization are topics you should study, understand and then witness in the LDS environment. You'll quickkly awake to the fact about what they are actually doing.

Go, and allow your guilt to be where it is at, and yet make healthy choices to understand the guilt and discover new pathways for your edification, freedom and growth. Be at peace with your guilt and be accepting of the rejection or acceptance others give you, as neither acceptance nor guilt have any real meaning in reality and do not define your value. Only you define your value. Take that power and choose you this day what value you are to yourself.

Were you raised in cultic Mormonism? If yes, your psyche was 'programmed' with its fear-, guilt- and shame-inducing 'spiritual' ideas (a lot of crap) from the beginning of your life. You - and millions of other people raised in Mo-ism - were most psychologically and emotionally vulnerable during your formative years. The 'hard-drives' of our psyches were 'programmed' with LDS nonsense from very early childhood. Can we fully liberate ourselves - psychologically, emotionally, and physically - from cultic Mormonism? Yes. One step at a time.

What do children need? To be accepted and loved just as they are. Not conditionally accepted because they're 'cute' little Mo-bots who parrot the mind-numbing phrases of older Mormons ("I know the church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. I know that the BoM is true...blah...blah...blah). So many people raised in Mormonism, particularly by perfectionist, control-addicted, insecure, naïve, immature TBM's, grow up feeling like strangers to their real/authentic self. You're in the process of liberating yourself from cultic Mormonism and discovering the real you. Keep going!

What happens to kids raised in cultic Mo-ism if they don't mentally regurgitate all the LDS nonsense that their 'brainwashed' parents, older siblings, grandparents, other relatives, church leaders and teachers, and the Mormon 'tribe' expect them to believe and parrot is 'true'? Withdrawal of approval. For small children, the withdrawal of approval and acceptance, particularly from their primary caregiver(s), is terrifying.

The needy 'inner child' keeps the individual psychologically and emotionally chained to cultic, boring Mo-ism, while their adult self desperately wants out. The moment when the adult in each of us CHOOSES to leave the Morg - and remains firm in our decision - is the moment in our lives when we step foot on the road to total freedom from Mormonism.

Shunning. Guilt-trips. Words from Latter-day Saints that are intended to instill fear ("If you don't go on a mission, God will hold you accountable for the souls of people who would have joined if you had gone!" "If you don't pray, attend church, pay tithing, and otherwise be obedient to the commandments, Satan will gain control of your soul and bring about your everlasting misery!" Etc. ad nauseum).

You're not obliged to tolerate anyone's attempt to try to manipulate you to do what they want by their use of guilt-trips, fear-trips, withdrawing their immature, conditional approval, threatening you (subtly or overtly), and so on.

Normal, psychologically healthy people respect other people's freedom to choose. They may prefer that a young person, for example, make healthier choices (e.g., refrain from experimenting with illicit drugs), but they realize they cannot control other people's thinking and behavior, nor do they want to. Unlike 'brainwashed' Mormons, they're not addicted to control (it's a function of Latter-day Saints' deep insecurity, irrational fears, and more, in the context of this discussion).

Etch this psychological truth into your mind: WE TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO TREAT US. Also, IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO. If your parents or another family member start verbally attacking you, tell them that they're being disrespectful and walk away. You don't have to scream at them, get into a long, dramatic fight with them, etc. Just speak calmly and firmly, then leave.

If they won't back off (some Mormons are real bullies), go on the offensive. You could say:

"Why would anyone believe in a religion founded by a guy who used his hat and a rock that he believed possessed a 'supernatural' power to 'translate' one of the religion's main books of scripture?" (search for posts on this board with links done by me for details)

"Why would anyone believe in a religion founded by a guy who, as church president and so-called 'prophet', made other men's wives his plural wives, as well as teenage girls young enough to be his daughters?" (details are in my posts w/ links)

"Why would anyone believe in a religion founded by a so-called 'prophet of God' who targeted other men's wives and girls as young as 14 - and single women - to be his plural wives and then lied in public about his practice of polygamy?" (see note #291 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith#Death for details)

You can be a 'doormat' or a 'tiger'. You can be a 'punching bag' or a 'boxer'. You're in charge of your life. There are things in life like personal freedom that are worth fighting for. You need to 're-train' your LDS-'brainwashed' parents and other family members to back off and leave you alone. If they wish to attend the highly dysfunctional and boring LDS Church, that's their business. You choose for your life.

Best wishes!

Rallychild, have you seen this 3½-minute YouTube interview with founder of this site? This clip was made in approximately late 1995.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS58S-xPdzI

As Eric says, YOU ARE NOT ALONE! You are going through feelings which are NORMAL for someone who is coming out of a cult.

It is a terrible shock for those who discover that most of their Mormon family members are "fair-weather relatives." Those relatives are playing the game of "we will withhold love and approval unless you conform as we demand." It takes enormous courage to walk away from any system of manipulation and control, Rallychild. You have taken the first steps!

There IS a 'pot of gold' at the end of the journey out of the church! The way to it lies in front of you, by your moving forward and walking THROUGH the painful feelings you currently are suffering.

Good luck. Keep posting!

It will get better for you, I promise. Do you have any friends who are not Mo's?

My best friends' mom is going through the same thing I am as far as feeling guilty and shunned and alone. I have a few non mormon friends, but they don't really know a lot about the church and they don't really know what I'm going through.

Thanks everyone. Again, your advice is extremely valued and it gets me through the day. I take every word and each bit of advice seriously. I will keep posting. Thank you

Well yes you do feel guilty. You should, and that is normal because you love your family and you fear that you are making them feel bad.

How much more guilt will you feel when you go out on your mission armed with proven sales techniques and tell people that you have the truth?

How much more guilt will you feel when you look into the eyes of an investigator, lean in a little closer so as to manipulate them into feeling what you will call the spirit, knowing full well that they might just fall for it and be baptized into something that you knew was false all along?

I am certain that God will forgive you for choosing to follow your conscience when you disappoint your family and friends, but will He forgive you for lying and decieving people into believing and committing to something you do not believe?

I am glad you feel this way. It shows that you are a good and conscientious person. Don't soil it with falsity.

But if you do decide to go on a mission, please make sure that you really do believe because you will be asking people to give up the faith of their fathers to join a new church and they may risk losing their families for doing so.

When it comes down to it, there is only one person we need to be able to look in the eye.

Look in the mirror. THAT's the one!

...of maturing into adulthood is realizing that it is neither necessary nor desirable for every last person to always be your fan. Even family members! I can't remember the number of times that my mom told me, "I LOVE you but I don't always LIKE you." Lol! Quit looking for everyone's approval. As a professor of mine once said, "Choose your critics."

Guilt is really only useful when it impels you to correct your own poor behavior and right a wrong. But making a religious choice is not poor behavior. You are just making a choice.

A number of years ago, when I was working in sales, I used to take it so personally when a customer was upset for one reason or another. My boss taught me to think about it in another way. Assuming that we were following company policy, and had done our best to address the customer's concerns, at a certain point she would shrug and say, "He'll get over it." And you know what? She was right. The customer would fret, fume, vent, and rage, but would eventually...get over it.

And so too, rallychild, will your family. Stand firm and realize that being an authentic adult is sometimes a messy, scary endeavor. You can do it!

This is the most difficult time for you because of the mission and having to face up to loved ones. They're disappointed because of their own indoctrination and because of losing the adoration and attention they planned to receive as you served the mission. It's the church making them feel this way.

It isn't your fault. You are doing the right thing . You need to live your own life and the world doesn't need one more missionary out there harassing people to join a destructive church organization.

You're very strong and brave to take this step and I'm sure you'll be glad of it in the long run. It will get easier over time. There will be setbacks but nothing will be as difficult as these first few weeks. I hope you can get out in nature or chat with people who are not mormon and are supportive of you. Perhaps go to the library and check out a couple of thrillers or a non-fiction book you've wanted to read, anything uplifter or different to free up your emotions for an hour or two.

Take care.

Ah. The Guilt Trip.

It's like an Acid Trip, but there's never a good Guilt Trip.

:oD

They are doing what they think is best for you. Like the people who made patent medicine with radium in triple distilled water.

Of course, it killed the poor sods who drunk it. They were glowing. But not with health...

Moving out makes things so much better. I don't know all of your situation, so don't take this as an order, just advice. Moving out and away really does help. If you can go a little ways away for college, you'll feel a lot better.
Trips home will be hard, but it won't be like a constant every day struggle and a questioning of everything.
In fact, you'll most likely be happier than you've ever been when you don't have to endure daily guilt trips and fights over going to church every Sunday. You just won't go, and have more time on your hands.
I would also really advise against caving in and going on a mission anyway. Nothing is certain, but you've shared enough that you'll probably have to come home early or suffer a mental breakdown, and then have to deal with that along with coming home early.

How could one be happy if you decide to fake it and go back. That would be a nightmare....doing callings, giving up your money, being told what to do, when and where....honestly, you must need to stand your ground and on every issue they bring up, have a come back. Ask them to research some things and you would genuinely like to discuss it without any attacks by either party. Tell them you have a brain and you like to use yours.

Even those of us who have been free for a while, need support like this.

It is human nature to wonder what could have/should have happened. RFM has some very valuable stories of the actual experiences of people who have made those difficult choices, and of the consequences they've suffered. You can learn from the mistakes or successes of others.

My son't best friend just came home from his mission early, for the very reason JOD described. He didn't like telling happy people their religion was WRONG, and causing friction and division within families when one of them decided to leave their traditional church and join a CULT.

Whenever I feel guilty about being an "apostate", I look at the big picture: My Mormon ancestors were the apostates, because they were lured away from their ancestral churches, to join with their neighbor Joseph Smith. They made the mistake of listening to a con-man, and joining a hoax religion that re-invented a different Christ and a different God for them. Then they became polygamists! I'll bet their parents were upset about that! I--in re-joining a Christian religion--am putting things right. I have returned my children and myself to the original Christian Bible-based religion of my ancestors.

I honestly feel that down the road, on the geneology chart, my progeny will see Mormonism as an embarrasing blotch, and hopefully they might think of me as the person who rescued the family from that aggressive, controlling, polygamous, chauvinistic cult of lies. (At least, they will see in our family history that we were the ones who went to real universities, and not to BYU.)

One side of my family has accepted me. In the past 6 years since my children and I left, other family members have also resigned. We are Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalian, Jewish, and Atheist. Especially with the younger generation, and with the constant switching around of churches, we have lost track of who is what.

The other side of the family has GA's, mission presidents, temple presidents, General Board members, BYU professors, etc., and they are more hard-hearted. But, these closed-minded people aren't as uplifting to be around. They were cold and snobby even when we were devout TBM. Most Mormons don't know how to love unconditionally.

Your TBM family should feel guilty about not loving you unconditionally. Remember, it is not your fault that Mormonism isn't true. The cult members are the ones who are crazy, not you. When you feel outnumbered, surrounded by Mormons, remember that less than .01% of people believe in Joseph Smith. In the real world, you are the majority. You've got 99.99% on your side. You've also got us at RFM.

rallychild--

This is what I thought of while reading this thread.

I tried all my life to not disappoint my parents. I was their most religious (though my dad wasn't very religious). I never rebelled. I did everything I could to make it so they never had to worry about me. I was the one they NEVER thought would not believe. Most of my siblings left the church in their teens.

I married my gay husband--and I made him promise me that I would never have to tell my parents he is gay, that I would never have to go to them and hurt them with a divorce, etc.

I tried really hard to never hurt my parents--never make them disappointed. I couldn't stop my ex from leaving me and that hurt them worse than anything I ever did and I didn't do it.

YOU can't be responsible for other people's happiness. That is THEIR JOB.

You also can't "save" someone else--which mormonism tries to force you to think is your job. Everyone has their own journey to make in this life. The only thing we can do is be kind and caring. It isn't up to you to make them happy.

A little background on me church-wise. I was a convert of about 20 years or so. Among other callings was a Stake President and Bishop (big whoop). I also have a long background as an Attorney (the Church loves them some high profile people in high profile callings. It's a PR thing ya know).

"Guilt" is a tool your body uses that primarily emanates from the flight or fight mechanism. It is a chemical reaction designed to either "keep you away" from something or "keep you from" something. At our advanced stage of development, it is usually tied to a "moral" predicament.

Now, quite frankly, morals are flexible and I used to have some interesting discussions with other Church leaders about them. They were usually for me to demonstrate that there is, indeed, moral flexibility which is typically culturally based. Examples would often center around multiple wives, marriage ceremonies, the use of drugs, etc. I would also posit the conundrum of "why is it bad if the Soviets spy on us but not when we spy on them when, in the abstract, it is the same thing for the same purpose?" Needless to say, I upset more than a few.

My point here is that you can not permit culture (family or Church) to dictate your guilt and that is EXACTLY what you are doing. Of course, 99% of us here have concluded the Church is utter BS. I'll tell you know that I know it is. I've researched extensively (pre-Internet) and spent many a year pondering to reach my conclusion and left. (No, I wasn't ex'd and no one "offended" me. I just realized it was crap).

So this is what you do. You do whatever your gut, not your guilt, tells you. You separate yourself from them, from us, and you think. You reason. You use your brain. You analyze the facts. You let no one anywhere decide your emotions for you. You allow your emotions to flow of your own volition. It's like watching a movie. Don't let anyone tell you if it's good or bad, the only issues is, "did YOU like it."

The only thing that works in this life is being who you are, being yourself. I used to give couples the advice that you either loved people for who and what they were or you didn't. There is no "changing" people. If you have to change people to love them, then you don't love that person. Given what little I read, it seems to me that you know what is the correct thing for you. Screw everyone else, do it, an never look back. TRUST me ... you'll be just fine. =)

I never considered that guilt was part of the fight or flight response. That makes sense.
Somehow, I got a short fuse in the guilt dept, if that is what it is. The mechanism works, but only long enough for me to recognize that I need to change something that is about my responsibility to fix. I've always been a bit independent and not easily swayed by guilt. Maybe it was my upbringing. Guilt was rarely used as a tool in my home.



sonoflds Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A little background on me church-wise. I was a
> convert of about 20 years or so. Among other
> callings was a Stake President and Bishop (big
> whoop). I also have a long background as an
> Attorney (the Church loves them some high profile
> people in high profile callings. It's a PR thing
> ya know).
>
> "Guilt" is a tool your body uses that primarily
> emanates from the flight or fight mechanism. It
> is a chemical reaction designed to either "keep
> you away" from something or "keep you from"
> something. At our advanced stage of development,
> it is usually tied to a "moral" predicament.
>
> Now, quite frankly, morals are flexible and I used
> to have some interesting discussions with other
> Church leaders about them. They were usually for
> me to demonstrate that there is, indeed, moral
> flexibility which is typically culturally based.
> Examples would often center around multiple wives,
> marriage ceremonies, the use of drugs, etc. I
> would also posit the conundrum of "why is it bad
> if the Soviets spy on us but not when we spy on
> them when, in the abstract, it is the same thing
> for the same purpose?" Needless to say, I upset
> more than a few.
>
> My point here is that you can not permit culture
> (family or Church) to dictate your guilt and that
> is EXACTLY what you are doing. Of course, 99% of
> us here have concluded the Church is utter BS.
> I'll tell you know that I know it is. I've
> researched extensively (pre-Internet) and spent
> many a year pondering to reach my conclusion and
> left. (No, I wasn't ex'd and no one "offended"
> me. I just realized it was crap).
>
> So this is what you do. You do whatever your gut,
> not your guilt, tells you. You separate yourself
> from them, from us, and you think. You reason.
> You use your brain. You analyze the facts. You
> let no one anywhere decide your emotions for you.
> You allow your emotions to flow of your own
> volition. It's like watching a movie. Don't let
> anyone tell you if it's good or bad, the only
> issues is, "did YOU like it."
>
> The only thing that works in this life is being
> who you are, being yourself. I used to give
> couples the advice that you either loved people
> for who and what they were or you didn't. There
> is no "changing" people. If you have to change
> people to love them, then you don't love that
> person. Given what little I read, it seems to me
> that you know what is the correct thing for you.
> Screw everyone else, do it, an never look back.
> TRUST me ... you'll be just fine. =)

Wow! I gotta tell you I have been where you are! Everything you said was like listening to myself just a few years ago. Everthing from the guilt to the wondering if I should rejoin to be happy again. Crazy. It must be a very common cycle for people who leave the church. I just have to say the guilt WILL go away, it just takes time. I know that's probably what you don't want to hear and I thought I would never get over the guilt and I've been out of the church now for 6 years and I don't feel the guilt anymore. I don't know your situation, but I have found that I really was happy in the church also, you just need to find something else to replace that with, like finding another church. But give it time!!

GET OUT OF THEIR HOUSE ASAP !!!!


As long as you are a captive at home,it's too easy for them to dump their bad feelings and their disappointment on you.

Are you getting your ducks in a row for the new semester?
Take out student loans if you have to but move away from this gloom and doom scenario.

rallychild Wrote:
>
> I know the church isn't true, but the guilt is
> making me feel like I have to believe it to be
> happy.
>

Which is exactly the feeling they want it to have. In reality what your family is doing is demanding that you make them happy by conforming to their beliefs rather than being respectful of your beliefs and your happiness. If they will not listen to your concerns and beliefs in a respectful manner, why should you listen to them? This is emotional abuse. Stay strong, but if because of your age and financial situation, you have to go along to keep the peace for a while until you can get out on your own that is understandable. Unfortunate, but understandable.

...someone would have asserted even greater control after your mission, based on your having taken the endowment.

You must obey me...I have received revelation as your father, bishop, EQP, etc....it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong...you promised you would obey...it would be more wrong to break your promise than to do something wrong...you will be blessed even if it's wrong...

Barf.

Was to learn about how people react when they leave OTHER cults.

I visited an ex-JW site. It was strikingly similar to this site, in the way that people were expressing similar emotions of self-doubt, guilt and fear.

That helped me realize that feelings of insecurity, guilt and fear are not necessarily evidence of right vs. wrong, or true vs. false. Because if that were the case, then I'd have to conclude that Jehovah's Witnesses, or maybe even the Moonies must be the one true church.

In fact, those feelings are evidence that there is a real problem with the religion. Besides just being false, the religion destroys a person's confidence to think for themselves, and often blurs proper boundaries between members, so they are trying to control what others think or express. Also, the fear element . . . the consequences (both socially and in the next life) that members are threatened with if they leave makes it undesirable for most members even to question, let alone LEAVE.

You are NOT alone in your feelings. Thousands of people have experienced similar feelings when they leave their destructive religions.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/exclusive_brethren/exclusive_brethren86.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/recovery/recovery1.html

Read Steven Hassan's book "combatting cult mind control". I wish I had right after I left, instead of years later.

The church has really pulled some psychological strings in your brain and it's going to take a while to put things right.